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Author Topic: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?  (Read 7012 times)

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Offline Gomer

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Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 13:31:11 »
Many threads about grace have been started and having look through them, I have not found one yet that proves salvation is by 'grace alone'.  (A book some person wrote does not prove it, sorry)

Here is a thread where those who believe salvation is by grace alone can post that mysterious, elusive verse.  The only qualifier I have is that any verse(s) posted must already have the word "only" or "alone" in it, that is, either word cannot be added to or assumed into the verse.  If people could add to or assume ideas into the bible then everyone, anyone can make the bible say whatever they desire for it to say.

"Grace" and "grace only" are not the same things.

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Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 13:31:11 »

Offline segell

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #1 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 13:48:54 »
Show me the verse that says "Christ did His part and we must do our part"?  Word for word, Gomer.

We are saved by God's grace through faith, not of works lest any man should boast.

How about your obedience?  Praiseworthy?  It must be because I know Christ's part is holy and wholly praiseworthy.  So your part must be too, right?

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #1 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 13:48:54 »

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #2 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 13:53:10 »
Wow both of you are being silly. You're purposefully wasting each other's time by choosing phrases that you know aren't in the Bible and demnading they be cited as if what the phrases are teaching can not be found in Sacred Scripture without the verbatim clutch you have placed on it.

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #2 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 13:53:10 »

Offline Gomer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #3 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 13:58:31 »
Show me the verse that says "Christ did His part and we must do our part"?  Word for word, Gomer.

We are saved by God's grace through faith, not of works lest any man should boast.

How about your obedience?  Praiseworthy?  It must be because I know Christ's part is holy and wholly praiseworthy.  So your part must be too, right?


You answer a question with a question.

All I am asking for is that verse that says salvation is by 'grace alone".  Why did you not post a verse?

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #3 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 13:58:31 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline Gomer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #4 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 14:00:41 »
Wow both of you are being silly. You're purposefully wasting each other's time by choosing phrases that you know aren't in the Bible and demnading they be cited as if what the phrases are teaching can not be found in Sacred Scripture without the verbatim clutch you have placed on it.

Salvation is either by grace alone or it's not, I am just asking for what verse(s) that says salvation is by grace alone. 

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #4 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 14:00:41 »



Offline LightHammer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #5 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 14:05:41 »
Wow both of you are being silly. You're purposefully wasting each other's time by choosing phrases that you know aren't in the Bible and demnading they be cited as if what the phrases are teaching can not be found in Sacred Scripture without the verbatim clutch you have placed on it.

Salvation is either by grace alone or it's not, I am just asking for what verse(s) that says salvation is by grace alone. 

Using that empty thought process an unitarian could say that either God is the Trinity or not and demand the verses where the word Trinity is used verbatim. Since no verses use the word Trinity said unitarian could claim that the Trinity must not be Bible-based.

Both are silly standards because the Trinity is infact taught in the Bible if not quoted verbatim. IMHO, if you care about orthodoxy you should not be so....shallow.

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #5 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 14:05:41 »

Offline Thankfulldad

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #6 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 14:06:04 »
Here is a thread where those who believe salvation is by grace alone can post that mysterious, elusive verse.  The only qualifier I have is that any verse(s) posted must already have the word "only" or "alone" in it, that is, either word cannot be added to or assumed into the verse.  If people could add to or assume ideas into the bible then everyone, anyone can make the bible say whatever they desire for it to say.

"Grace" and "grace only" are not the same things.

Here is one that "should" make an impact on your heart...though "only" and "alone" can not be found...it is evident that the "the Grace of God" was found in "the Cross"....and "our righteousness" gains "nothing".  

Galatians 2:21...I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!

Honestly Gomer; do you think your effort compares?

Offline Gomer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #7 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 14:12:05 »
Wow both of you are being silly. You're purposefully wasting each other's time by choosing phrases that you know aren't in the Bible and demnading they be cited as if what the phrases are teaching can not be found in Sacred Scripture without the verbatim clutch you have placed on it.

Salvation is either by grace alone or it's not, I am just asking for what verse(s) that says salvation is by grace alone. 

Using that empty thought process an unitarian could say that either God is the Trinity or not and demand the verses where the word Trinity is used verbatim. Since no verses use the word Trinity said unitarian could claim that the Trinity must not be Bible-based.

Both are silly standards because the Trinity is infact taught in the Bible if not quoted verbatim. IMHO, if you care about orthodoxy you should not be so....shallow.


I understand what you are saying but grace and grace alone are not the same thing as you are talking about.  Either salvation is by grace by itself (grace alone) or it is by grace plus something else.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #8 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 14:14:05 »
Here is a thread where those who believe salvation is by grace alone can post that mysterious, elusive verse.  The only qualifier I have is that any verse(s) posted must already have the word "only" or "alone" in it, that is, either word cannot be added to or assumed into the verse.  If people could add to or assume ideas into the bible then everyone, anyone can make the bible say whatever they desire for it to say.

"Grace" and "grace only" are not the same things.

Here is one that "should" make an impact on your heart...though "only" and "alone" can not be found...it is evident that the "the Grace of God" was found in "the Cross"....and "our righteousness" gains "nothing".  

Galatians 2:21...I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!

Honestly Gomer; do you think your effort compares?

At least you admitted that the verse does not say we are saved by grace alone or grace only.  Try again.

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #8 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 14:14:05 »

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #9 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 14:20:12 »
Wow both of you are being silly. You're purposefully wasting each other's time by choosing phrases that you know aren't in the Bible and demnading they be cited as if what the phrases are teaching can not be found in Sacred Scripture without the verbatim clutch you have placed on it.

Salvation is either by grace alone or it's not, I am just asking for what verse(s) that says salvation is by grace alone.  

Using that empty thought process an unitarian could say that either God is the Trinity or not and demand the verses where the word Trinity is used verbatim. Since no verses use the word Trinity said unitarian could claim that the Trinity must not be Bible-based.

Both are silly standards because the Trinity is infact taught in the Bible if not quoted verbatim. IMHO, if you care about orthodoxy you should not be so....shallow.


I understand what you are saying but grace and grace alone are not the same thing as you are talking about.  Either salvation is by grace by itself (grace alone) or it is by grace plus something else.

I think this can be interesting.

If you would humor me I would like for you to define what "grace" means to you.

Offline OldDad

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #10 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 14:21:55 »
"Grace" and "grace only" are not the same things.

Why not? Because it doesn't fit your little man-made, man-concocted, cut-n-paste "five finger exercise"?

Ephesians 2:8 is the obvous answer - which you realize, so you move to pre-empt it by simply asserting it doesn't mean what it says.

So let's back up to Ephesians 2:5 - I know, I know, you will raise your tired, ridiculous objection that the one word you're fixated on isn't there - and let's pick up verse 4 as well, for context...

"But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved."

Our loving God, in his mercy, made dead people alive. Dead people. Made alive.

Unless you can come up with one - just one - example of a dead person raising themselves to life - your point is moot. Not to menton ignorant.


Offline Thankfulldad

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #11 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 14:35:04 »
Here is a thread where those who believe salvation is by grace alone can post that mysterious, elusive verse.  The only qualifier I have is that any verse(s) posted must already have the word "only" or "alone" in it, that is, either word cannot be added to or assumed into the verse.  If people could add to or assume ideas into the bible then everyone, anyone can make the bible say whatever they desire for it to say.

"Grace" and "grace only" are not the same things.

Here is one that "should" make an impact on your heart...though "only" and "alone" can not be found...it is evident that the "the Grace of God" was found in "the Cross"....and "our righteousness" gains "nothing".  

Galatians 2:21...I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!

Honestly Gomer; do you think your effort compares?

At least you admitted that the verse does not say we are saved by grace alone or grace only.  Try again.

I don't have to try again for "anything"...including salvation!  I have the grace of God; through the sacrificial Death of Jesus.

You on the other hand...appear to be in a continual "try again state"; which only leads to death...because all your efforts gain nothing!

It is Jesus...

or

It is Gomer...

Where do you place your trust?

Offline Debbie_55

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #12 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 14:56:44 »
Titus 2:11  For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Gomer I could not even count on both hands as to how many topics on grace you have either started or joined into and you refuse to believe salvation is by grace only. We do not have to work for something that is already given freely to those who have faith to believe it is all free, paid for, nothing we can earn.

Our works are those continued works of Christ in Matthew 25:1-40 and if you think we have to earn our way into heaven then I suggest you read and reread these two verses.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #13 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 15:38:57 »
Titus 2:11  For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 ::smile:: I am glad I read all the way to the end of this thread before I posted, because you already took care of the verses that popped into my head about this topic.

Pretty hard to ignore IMO.  For the GRACE of God brings salvation, it is a GIFT of God not of works so that NO MAN CAN BOAST!

 ::smile::

Offline Consumingfire

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #14 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 16:00:02 »
Show me the verse that says "Christ did His part and we must do our part"?  Word for word, Gomer.

We are saved by God's grace through faith, not of works lest any man should boast.

How about your obedience?  Praiseworthy?  It must be because I know Christ's part is holy and wholly praiseworthy.  So your part must be too, right?
Your view of "faith" is skewed.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #15 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 16:27:35 »
Wow both of you are being silly. You're purposefully wasting each other's time by choosing phrases that you know aren't in the Bible and demnading they be cited as if what the phrases are teaching can not be found in Sacred Scripture without the verbatim clutch you have placed on it.

Salvation is either by grace alone or it's not, I am just asking for what verse(s) that says salvation is by grace alone.  

Using that empty thought process an unitarian could say that either God is the Trinity or not and demand the verses where the word Trinity is used verbatim. Since no verses use the word Trinity said unitarian could claim that the Trinity must not be Bible-based.

Both are silly standards because the Trinity is infact taught in the Bible if not quoted verbatim. IMHO, if you care about orthodoxy you should not be so....shallow.


I understand what you are saying but grace and grace alone are not the same thing as you are talking about.  Either salvation is by grace by itself (grace alone) or it is by grace plus something else.

I think this can be interesting.

If you would humor me I would like for you to define what "grace" means to you.

it means favor, when referring to God's grace it is unmerited favor

Offline Gomer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #16 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 16:48:32 »
"Grace" and "grace only" are not the same things.

Why not? Because it doesn't fit your little man-made, man-concocted, cut-n-paste "five finger exercise"?

Ephesians 2:8 is the obvous answer - which you realize, so you move to pre-empt it by simply asserting it doesn't mean what it says.

So let's back up to Ephesians 2:5 - I know, I know, you will raise your tired, ridiculous objection that the one word you're fixated on isn't there - and let's pick up verse 4 as well, for context...

"But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved."

Our loving God, in his mercy, made dead people alive. Dead people. Made alive.

Unless you can come up with one - just one - example of a dead person raising themselves to life - your point is moot. Not to menton ignorant.



Grace alone would exclude everything else whereas grace does not.

From reference.com:

alone means:

1. separate, apart, or isolated from others: I want to be alone.

2. to the exclusion of all others or all else: One cannot live by bread alone.

3. unique; unequaled; unexcelled: He is alone among his peers in devotion to duty.

To the exclusion of all others or all else.  Grace alone then would exclude faith, the word of God, the blood of Christ, repentance, confession, baptism, hope, obedience, all of which saves according to the bible.  When the bible says grace saves that does not exclude all these others thing.  Just as when 1 Pet 3:21 says baptism saves that does not mean baptism alone saves excluding all the other things incuding grace.

If someone suggests faith alone saves then that would exclude grace so the phrase 'saved by grace alone through faith alone' is a contradictory statement.  It is impossible to be by both alone at the same time.  If faith and grace were the name of two women, could I be married to Faith alone and Grace alone at the same time?  No.  For me to say I am married to Faith alone excludes me from being married to anyone else at the same time.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #17 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 16:55:19 »
Here is a thread where those who believe salvation is by grace alone can post that mysterious, elusive verse.  The only qualifier I have is that any verse(s) posted must already have the word "only" or "alone" in it, that is, either word cannot be added to or assumed into the verse.  If people could add to or assume ideas into the bible then everyone, anyone can make the bible say whatever they desire for it to say.

"Grace" and "grace only" are not the same things.

Here is one that "should" make an impact on your heart...though "only" and "alone" can not be found...it is evident that the "the Grace of God" was found in "the Cross"....and "our righteousness" gains "nothing".  

Galatians 2:21...I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!

Honestly Gomer; do you think your effort compares?

At least you admitted that the verse does not say we are saved by grace alone or grace only.  Try again.

I don't have to try again for "anything"...including salvation!  I have the grace of God; through the sacrificial Death of Jesus.

You on the other hand...appear to be in a continual "try again state"; which only leads to death...because all your efforts gain nothing!

It is Jesus...

or

It is Gomer...

Where do you place your trust?

For Gomer to be saved it's going to take both the Lord and Gomer, the Lord's grace and Gomer's faith.  No verse says God saves unconditionally apart from man's faith.  If salvation were all grace on the Lord's part and nothing on man's part, then how does God go about determining who will and who will not receive His grace?  Pure randomness?  If you received grace and I did not then what made a distinction between you and me?  There must be a distinction for choosing between like options is randomness.

Offline OldDad

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #18 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 16:57:34 »
So you got no examples of dead people being able to raise themselves to life? Or was your first wife Grace or second wife Faith one of them?

While we're looking for "alone" - can you look for the verse that has, "hear, believe, repent, confess, be baptized" in it?  No group of verses, none of this a verse from here and a verselette from there stuff - just the one verse I can take someone to and show them the five finger exercise?

Oh, and the verse that says we have to ask God for forgiveness when we sin - find that one too.


Offline Volkmar

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #19 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 16:59:22 »
"Grace" and "grace only" are not the same things.

Why not? Because it doesn't fit your little man-made, man-concocted, cut-n-paste "five finger exercise"?

Ephesians 2:8 is the obvous answer - which you realize, so you move to pre-empt it by simply asserting it doesn't mean what it says.

So let's back up to Ephesians 2:5 - I know, I know, you will raise your tired, ridiculous objection that the one word you're fixated on isn't there - and let's pick up verse 4 as well, for context...

"But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved."

Our loving God, in his mercy, made dead people alive. Dead people. Made alive.

Unless you can come up with one - just one - example of a dead person raising themselves to life - your point is moot. Not to menton ignorant.


ditto, +X

And add to that...Gomer, please show us one verse which says, "we are first saved by grace, then after that you maintain yourself saved by works."

This is silly....



V

V

Offline Gomer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #20 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 17:15:40 »
Titus 2:11  For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Gomer I could not even count on both hands as to how many topics on grace you have either started or joined into and you refuse to believe salvation is by grace only. We do not have to work for something that is already given freely to those who have faith to believe it is all free, paid for, nothing we can earn.

Our works are those continued works of Christ in Matthew 25:1-40 and if you think we have to earn our way into heaven then I suggest you read and reread these two verses.

First, neither passage says faith alone.  Tts 2:11 says grace hath appeared to all men yet all men will not be save so is it just pure randomness as to which ones are saved and which ones are not?


Secondly, Eph 2:8 says saved by grace through nothing?  No, saved by grace through faith.  No verse says man will be saved unconditionally apart from having faith.  When Paul said not of works that would be works of merit.  Faith is a work and is necessary to being saved, so Paul would not include faith in v8 then turn around and exclude it in v9.

I started one or two threads on grace.  None of the grace threads proved salvation is by grace alone so I started this one so someone might provide that mush talked about but elusive faith only verse.  Maybe this  thread will be the grace thread to end all grace threads....if that elusive verse is found.

No one earns their way to heaven, so that is a none issue here, though it gets brought up a lot.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #21 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 17:22:11 »
Titus 2:11  For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 ::smile:: I am glad I read all the way to the end of this thread before I posted, because you already took care of the verses that popped into my head about this topic.

Pretty hard to ignore IMO.  For the GRACE of God brings salvation, it is a GIFT of God not of works so that NO MAN CAN BOAST!

 ::smile::

Hi,

I am having a hard time seeing where either passage says salvation us by grace alone, Eph 2:8 says salvation is by grace through faith, not grace alone.  If salvation were by grace alone that eliminates faith and why would the bible spends so much time talking about faith when it is totally unnecessary to salvation.

I could say 1 Pet 3:21 teaches baptism alone saves.  Aside from driving the anti-water baptism crowd nuts it would not be true for baptism saves but not baptism alone...grace saves but not grace alone...faith saves but not faith alone...repentance saves but not repentance only, confession saves but not confession alone....

Offline Gomer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #22 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 17:40:05 »
So you got no examples of dead people being able to raise themselves to life? Or was your first wife Grace or second wife Faith one of them?

I'm not certain what you mean here, I was just showing that the word alone is exclusionary.  If salvation is by grace alone then faith means nothing.  Can I say I am alone in a room if there are 15 other people in the room with me?


Quote from: OldDad
While we're looking for "alone" - can you look for the verse that has, "hear, believe, repent, confess, be baptized" in it?  No group of verses, none of this a verse from here and a verselette from there stuff - just the one verse I can take someone to and show them the five finger exercise?



In my op I asked for verse(s); one verse or more or some combinations of verses that say grace alone saves will be fine.

Per your request above how about Jn 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."?

It does not say believeth alone.  The word believe is used as a synecdoche, a part for the whole, where believe would include repentance, confession and baptism.  Just as baptism in 1 Pet 3:21 is used as a synechdoche for it includes hearing, believing, repenting and confession and does not mean baptism alone now saves us.

Quote from: OldDad
Oh, and the verse that says we have to ask God for forgiveness when we sin - find that one too.


 

You don't think it's necessary for the Christian to ask God for forgiveness when the Christian sins against God?  Peter commanded Simon "Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.", Acts 8:22.

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #23 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 17:46:53 »
Gomer said:
Quote
If salvation is by grace alone then faith means nothing.

No because Paul said that faith is according to [the working of] grace, Romans 4:16.

thinker

Offline Gomer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #24 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 17:56:11 »
"Grace" and "grace only" are not the same things.

Why not? Because it doesn't fit your little man-made, man-concocted, cut-n-paste "five finger exercise"?

Ephesians 2:8 is the obvous answer - which you realize, so you move to pre-empt it by simply asserting it doesn't mean what it says.

So let's back up to Ephesians 2:5 - I know, I know, you will raise your tired, ridiculous objection that the one word you're fixated on isn't there - and let's pick up verse 4 as well, for context...

"But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved."

Our loving God, in his mercy, made dead people alive. Dead people. Made alive.

Unless you can come up with one - just one - example of a dead person raising themselves to life - your point is moot. Not to menton ignorant.


ditto, +X

And add to that...Gomer, please show us one verse which says, "we are first saved by grace, then after that you maintain yourself saved by works."

This is silly....



V

V

 How about Rom 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. "?

One must continue to stand in God's grace and not fall from it as the Galatians that had fallen from grace.

2 Cor 6:1 "We then, [as] workers together [with him], beseech [you] also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain."

As Christians, the Corinthians had received God's grace but because of problems at the church in Corinth they were being warned about haing recieved grace in vain.

[The purpose of the thread is finding that grace only verse.]

Offline segell

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #25 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 17:59:38 »
Show me the verse that says "Christ did His part and we must do our part"?  Word for word, Gomer.

We are saved by God's grace through faith, not of works lest any man should boast.

How about your obedience?  Praiseworthy?  It must be because I know Christ's part is holy and wholly praiseworthy.  So your part must be too, right?


You answer a question with a question.

All I am asking for is that verse that says salvation is by 'grace alone".  Why did you not post a verse?

I was just responding to the what I believe to be the silliness of your question, Gomer.  I believe you espouse that Christ did His part and we must do our part.  Show me where that is said in Scripture.  Or did you through your read and/or take of Scripture come up with that?

But I can support Scripturally the foundation for the belief that we are save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone for the glory of God alone.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #26 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 18:00:06 »
Gomer said:
Quote
If salvation is by grace alone then faith means nothing.

No because Paul said that faith is according to [the working of] grace, Romans 4:16.

thinker



 So then faith is a necessary part of salvation?

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #27 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 18:04:25 »
Wow both of you are being silly. You're purposefully wasting each other's time by choosing phrases that you know aren't in the Bible and demnading they be cited as if what the phrases are teaching can not be found in Sacred Scripture without the verbatim clutch you have placed on it.

Salvation is either by grace alone or it's not, I am just asking for what verse(s) that says salvation is by grace alone.  

Using that empty thought process an unitarian could say that either God is the Trinity or not and demand the verses where the word Trinity is used verbatim. Since no verses use the word Trinity said unitarian could claim that the Trinity must not be Bible-based.

Both are silly standards because the Trinity is infact taught in the Bible if not quoted verbatim. IMHO, if you care about orthodoxy you should not be so....shallow.


I understand what you are saying but grace and grace alone are not the same thing as you are talking about.  Either salvation is by grace by itself (grace alone) or it is by grace plus something else.

I think this can be interesting.

If you would humor me I would like for you to define what "grace" means to you.

it means favor, when referring to God's grace it is unmerited favor

Is that what you think? Are you sure?

I mean I'm not raising complaints with that definition because that's not what this thread is about but if that's really what you think then how do you raise an issue with Grace Alone?

Salvation is communion with God in yet you think you need more than God's favour to be in communion with Him? What else but the favour of God does one need to remain in communion with Him if you don't mind sharing.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #28 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 18:05:42 »
Show me the verse that says "Christ did His part and we must do our part"?  Word for word, Gomer.

We are saved by God's grace through faith, not of works lest any man should boast.

How about your obedience?  Praiseworthy?  It must be because I know Christ's part is holy and wholly praiseworthy.  So your part must be too, right?


You answer a question with a question.

All I am asking for is that verse that says salvation is by 'grace alone".  Why did you not post a verse?

I was just responding to the what I believe to be the silliness of your question, Gomer.  I believe you espouse that Christ did His part and we must do our part.  Show me where that is said in Scripture.  Or did you through your read and/or take of Scripture come up with that?

But I can support Scripturally the foundation for the belief that we are save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone for the glory of God alone.


 Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith

Grace is God's part and faith is man's part.


You posted "But I can support Scripturally the foundation for the belief that we are save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone for the glory of God alone."

Ok, where is that grace only verse(s)?


[I posted earlier how that phrase "grace alone by faith alone" is contradictory. Alone is an exclusionary word, so if grace alone saves then that excludes faith, if faith alone saves then that excludes grace.]

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #29 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 18:06:37 »
Gomer said:
Quote
If salvation is by grace alone then faith means nothing.

No because Paul said that faith is according to [the working of] grace, Romans 4:16.

thinker



 So then faith is a necessary part of salvation?

God has shown us Grace, which is Favor by making it possible for us to attain eternal life and salvation by Faith. In that way Jesus is Our Grace, our very Favor with God is through Him

Whereby if you go to God on your own in your own name you have no favor but if you go to God in Jesus name He will show you Grace and Favor .....

So then...

Grace is a person that Person is Jesus!

Offline Gomer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #30 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 18:11:13 »
Wow both of you are being silly. You're purposefully wasting each other's time by choosing phrases that you know aren't in the Bible and demnading they be cited as if what the phrases are teaching can not be found in Sacred Scripture without the verbatim clutch you have placed on it.

Salvation is either by grace alone or it's not, I am just asking for what verse(s) that says salvation is by grace alone.  

Using that empty thought process an unitarian could say that either God is the Trinity or not and demand the verses where the word Trinity is used verbatim. Since no verses use the word Trinity said unitarian could claim that the Trinity must not be Bible-based.

Both are silly standards because the Trinity is infact taught in the Bible if not quoted verbatim. IMHO, if you care about orthodoxy you should not be so....shallow.


I understand what you are saying but grace and grace alone are not the same thing as you are talking about.  Either salvation is by grace by itself (grace alone) or it is by grace plus something else.

I think this can be interesting.

If you would humor me I would like for you to define what "grace" means to you.

it means favor, when referring to God's grace it is unmerited favor

Is that what you think? Are you sure?

I mean I'm not raising complaints with that definition because that's not what this thread is about but if that's really what you think then how do you raise an issue with Grace Alone?

Salvation is communion with God in yet you think you need more than God's favour to be in communion with Him? What else but the favour of God does one need to remain in communion with Him if you don't mind sharing.
 

God's "favor" has appeared to all men, Tts 2:11 yet all men will not be saved.  Why will some receive "favor" while others do not?

God's "favor" is conditional, thsoe that love God, Jn 14:15, by obeying His commandments receive God's favor.  Can I have 'communion' with God while not loving Him, that is, while not keeping His commandments?

Offline Gomer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #31 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 18:13:56 »
Gomer said:
Quote
If salvation is by grace alone then faith means nothing.

No because Paul said that faith is according to [the working of] grace, Romans 4:16.

thinker



 So then faith is a necessary part of salvation?

God has shown us Grace, which is Favor by making it possible for us to attain eternal life and salvation by Faith. In that way Jesus is Our Grace, our very Favor with God is through Him

Whereby if you go to God on your own in your own name you have no favor but if you go to God in Jesus name He will show you Grace and Favor .....

So then...

Grace is a person that Person is Jesus!


 The question was about the necessity of faith.  Is faith necessary to salvation?

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #32 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 18:40:41 »
Gomer don't you believe the gospel of Christ is a gift from God? You would have nothing to have faith in if not for God's grace, unless you invented your own gospel. Christ died for us while we we yet sinners. You don't have to be Calvinistic to understand that salvation is totally wrapped up in God's grace. Even the most Arminian and works oriented understand that. If you want to refute Calvinism or "cheap grace" have at it, but exercises in semantics are of little value.

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #33 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 18:41:15 »
Wow both of you are being silly. You're purposefully wasting each other's time by choosing phrases that you know aren't in the Bible and demnading they be cited as if what the phrases are teaching can not be found in Sacred Scripture without the verbatim clutch you have placed on it.

Salvation is either by grace alone or it's not, I am just asking for what verse(s) that says salvation is by grace alone.  

Using that empty thought process an unitarian could say that either God is the Trinity or not and demand the verses where the word Trinity is used verbatim. Since no verses use the word Trinity said unitarian could claim that the Trinity must not be Bible-based.

Both are silly standards because the Trinity is infact taught in the Bible if not quoted verbatim. IMHO, if you care about orthodoxy you should not be so....shallow.


I understand what you are saying but grace and grace alone are not the same thing as you are talking about.  Either salvation is by grace by itself (grace alone) or it is by grace plus something else.

I think this can be interesting.

If you would humor me I would like for you to define what "grace" means to you.

it means favor, when referring to God's grace it is unmerited favor

Is that what you think? Are you sure?

I mean I'm not raising complaints with that definition because that's not what this thread is about but if that's really what you think then how do you raise an issue with Grace Alone?

Salvation is communion with God in yet you think you need more than God's favour to be in communion with Him? What else but the favour of God does one need to remain in communion with Him if you don't mind sharing.
 

God's "favor" has appeared to all men, Tts 2:11 yet all men will not be saved.  Why will some receive "favor" while others do not?

God's "favor" is conditional, thsoe that love God, Jn 14:15, by obeying His commandments receive God's favor.  Can I have 'communion' with God while not loving Him, that is, while not keeping His commandments?

Sticking to your definition of of grace, wouldn't that be a bit circular? By your logic God shows favor to those who love Him but ultimately the love of God returns with God's favor. Ultimately its still the favor of God that saves.

Also is love simply in doing what God says? I do what my miltary commanders say but do I love them in he same way I love God? Employees do what their bosses say and students do what their instructors say but is that what God emant when He said love is keeping My commandments?

I can create a machine without a heart or thought and have it completely obey my every directive. Is that love?

Sorry I think I was drifting a bit but consider Mother Mary she was considered highly favored among women before she even gave birth to the Messiah. If God's favor is proportional to our doing what He says, what exactly did Mother Mary do that made her "highly" favoured among women? She was not the only virgin in her time and she wasn't known for any extraordinary acts in yet she is seen with more favour than most before having done anything.

I still think that even in your theology God's favor (which you equate to grace) is what ultimately saves, the love of God is simply how a person gets God's grace in your school of thought.

Appreciating the conversation.

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #34 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 19:16:18 »
Many threads about grace have been started and having look through them, I have not found one yet that proves salvation is by 'grace alone'.  (A book some person wrote does not prove it, sorry)

Here is a thread where those who believe salvation is by grace alone can post that mysterious, elusive verse.  The only qualifier I have is that any verse(s) posted must already have the word "only" or "alone" in it, that is, either word cannot be added to or assumed into the verse.  If people could add to or assume ideas into the bible then everyone, anyone can make the bible say whatever they desire for it to say.

"Grace" and "grace only" are not the same things.

Gomer,

It goes without saying that no one will fulfill your request, because they can't show any verse that will say that. However, I would like to say that everything about salvation hinges upon the grace of God. The entire scope of salvation which is offered to us through the "good news" is all put into motion by God's grace. Our faith is centered on the death of Jesus and His resurrection through the power of God, and everything that means to us...but that was because God put His grace into action. Without such grace or the good news about it, there wouldn't be any inspiration to lead us to conviction or create faith in our hearts, nor give us hope. Repentance...simply put...it also is by God's good grace that He allows us to repent, especially since all of us are guilty and the penalty for sin is death. Confession...a requirement of Christ is still connected to grace because it was God our Father who taught us of eternal life through Jesus, so when we publicly acknowledge our faith in Christ it is by God's grace that He has moved us in such a way as to make us want to confess Jesus as Lord. Baptism, at least by my belief, is an extension of that confession of faith...so it too can be said to have its roots connected to God's grace.

I know that God's grace is what sets everything into motion, and that is entirely God's doing, but the response that we have is a working of the Holy Spirit in us. Read Isaiah 55:11 -

Isaiah 55:11 (ESV)
11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

The word is the sword of the Spirit, and it is that Spirit that is working in us through the gospel when we become believers. So even the work of God through His Spirit is actually an extension of His grace as well.

I'll await to be flamed on both sides (that's if anyone bothers to read this), but this is the way I see it.

I'm happy for God's grace...it means everything to me!