Author Topic: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?  (Read 1920 times)

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Offline dan p

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WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« on: Thu May 12, 2022 - 15:03:26 »
 So when does  ATONEMENT then  end ?

 What say you ?

 dan p

Offline Alan

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #1 on: Thu May 12, 2022 - 17:51:02 »

 So when does  ATONEMENT then  end ?

 What say you ?

 dan p

Ask yourself this; would you prefer atonement for your sins, or salvation through Jesus Christ?

Offline dan p

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #2 on: Thu May 12, 2022 - 19:11:50 »
  And I would have to believe that  ATONEMENT  was for GENTILES  instead of  belonging to  Israel ?
 
 And I would have to believe that  ATONEMENT was  for  GENTILES , which is a  big  NO !

 So I see that  Heb  9:15  Christs  blood HAD  to pay for all SINS  committed under the  OLD  COVENANT and  only  Israel was under that  COVENANT  and when  Israel is  saved  they will be under  the  NEW  COVENANT   Rom 11:26 .

 I do not see where GENTILES  will  ever be under the  NEW  COVENANT  at all .

And I believe that the OLD  CONVENANT  ended at  Acts 28:26 .27 .28 .

 dan p
« Last Edit: Thu May 12, 2022 - 19:14:35 by dan p »

Offline RB

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #3 on: Fri May 13, 2022 - 04:59:37 »
And I would have to believe that  ATONEMENT  was for GENTILES  instead of belonging to Israel?
Dan, you obliviously can believe what you want to, which is proven by your post.
Quote from: dan p Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 19:11:50
And I would have to believe that  ATONEMENT was  for GENTILES, which is a big NO!
Sir, again, you can believe what you desire to believe, and you will "until" God opens your understanding to see the truth, but your beliefs, or mine, do not make it the truth, according to the testimony of God. The testimony of God will defend one's understanding of the truth.
Quote from: dan p Reply #2 on Yesterday at 19:11:50
So I see that  Heb  9:15 Christ's blood HAD  to pay for all SINS  committed under the  OLD  COVENANT and only  Israel was under that  COVENANT  and when  Israel is saved they will be under the NEW  COVENANT Rom 11:26.
Dan, if you "see" this, then the burden of proof is upon your shoulders to at least attempt to prove this teaching, using scriptures to do so.

Your understanding is not biblical, not even close.

Everyone that will be saved to enter into eternal life are all saved by the new covenant where Christ was the surety of each child of God's oath and promises which is the foundation upon which the new covenant is founded upon and upon which it stands.

The old Covenant had the first Adam as its surety, which covenant was not secured by the oath and promises of God. Its foundation had Adam's "free will" and power to use that free will to secure eternal life for his posterity which we all know the results of Adam's success, without question Adam never lasted a day using his fleshly wisdom and power (which was created after God's image)~but the second Adam, the Lord from heaven TRIUMPH over sin, the world and the Devil to secured eternal life for his posterity.............. all of the elect of God, given to him of his Father~per John 17.
Quote from: dan p Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 19:11:50
I do not see where GENTILES  will ever be under the NEW COVENANT at all.
I can see where you not see. No problem convincing me!

Sir, if we are not under the new covenant, then pray to tell me which covenant are we under? The language of the first covenant speaks on this wise: "This DO and LIVE, sin and DIE~in the second death which is destruction in the lake of fire. Since no man can do perfectly and live, and that to continue forever without ever sinning~ then the first covenant leaves a person without any hope, for it is impossible for a man born of flesh to do so.
Quote from: dan p Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 19:11:50
I do not see where GENTILES  will ever be under the NEW COVENANT at all.
Then Dan, let me ask you a question: where and what is your hope of eternal life?
Quote from: dan p Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 19:11:50
And I believe that the OLD  COVENANT  ended at  Acts 28:26, 27, 28.
It ended for God's elect at the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ...... ALL who are not IN CHRIST are still under the old covenant as their ONLY hope of eternal life!
Quote from: Paul
Romans 6:6-15~"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
There are only TWO WAYS to enter into eternal life~one by our works, or one by what Christ did for us, that we could not do for ourselves~one is under the works of the law, the other is by PURE GRACE without the least mixture of our works!

I'm under grace, which one are you under Dan? You must answer this for yourself. Your answer very well could give proof of your destiny, God is the final judge, not man, He alone knows who belongs to him, for it is not their understanding that will land them on heaven's bright shores, as the old saying goes, but the grace of God alone given to them for Jesus' sake. May God be praise. 
« Last Edit: Fri May 13, 2022 - 06:28:28 by RB »

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #3 on: Fri May 13, 2022 - 04:59:37 »

Offline dan p

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #4 on: Fri May 13, 2022 - 13:51:03 »
And you say that you are under  GRACE ?

 In  Eph 2:8 it reads :

 #1 BY  GRACE /CHARIS is in the  DATIVE  CASE  of personal  relations and saves people one at a time and is  SINGULAR .

 #2 ARE  YOU / ESTE is in the  PERSENT  TENSE  and in the  INDICATIVE MOOD which means present  tense is a  FACT .

 #3 SAVED / SOZO is in the  Greek  PERFECT  TENSE , PASSIVE  TENSE , PARTICILE and this part of  Eph 2:8 should be translate HAVING  BEEN  SAVED and that  PARTICIPLE is the word  HAVING , which ends in  ING .  And by the way the  PERFECT  TENSE  means  OSAS .

  #4 And the next Greek word  says that we  are  saved  by  FAITH / PISTIS which is in the  GENITIVE CASE  and the  genitive  case signifies essentials limits or by  FAITH .

 #5 THAT / TOUTO is a  DEMONSTRATIVE PRONOUN  to call attention to the word  THAT .

 #6 NOT /OV  which is  DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE  NEGATIVE  which  means NOT  BY  WORKS , EVER RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

 #7 If your translation has the words IT IS , they are not in the  Greek  text .

 #8 The  GREEK  word THE /HO  is pointing to the next word  GIFT/ DORON  is in the  NOMINATE  CASE  and means it is the  subject .

 I also believe that we are saved by  GRACE and should be able to write how a  person is  saved today , you go first , then I will say how a  person is saved as  Paul was  saved .

dan p



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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #4 on: Fri May 13, 2022 - 13:51:03 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #5 on: Fri May 13, 2022 - 15:24:11 »
Animal sacrifices were NEVER sufficient to atone for sins.

Heb 10:4   For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

I don't see how it can get any more straightforward than that.  NONE of the prophets ever endorse sacrifices for the purpose of atonement.  They all uniformly proclaim that only God Himself can make atonement.  When the priests and Levites offer sacrifices for atonement, the prophets condemn them for doing so!  God Himself proclaims that He will NOT accept sacrifices from the guilty!

They sacrifice flesh for the sacrifices of mine offerings, and eat it; but the LORD accepteth them not; now will he remember their iniquity, and visit their sins.  (Hos 8:13)

I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.  Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.  Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.  But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.  Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel?  But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.  Therefore will I cause you to go into captivity beyond Damascus, saith the LORD, whose name is The God of hosts. (Amos 5)

Why do you ask when atonement ended, as if the Old Testament sacrifices were EVER for atonement?  There is only one who can atone for sins, God Himself.  He has made atonement, just once, and that once is sufficient for all time.

Jarrod

Offline dan p

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #6 on: Fri May 13, 2022 - 17:38:28 »
And you believe that only God can  forgive  SINS ?  I do too !!

 But explain  John  20:23 Whose soever  SINS  ye  remit ,  they  are  REMITTED   unto  them , and whose sins ye   RETAIN , they  are  RETAINED .

The  disciples were given this  authority in verse 22 !

 Also  remember that unto  Peter was given the  KEYS  to the  KINGDOM of  HEAVEN  and these  KEYS  were used in  ACTS .

And the  Greek words they are  RETAIN / KRATEO  is in the  Greek  PERFECT  TENSE  and that means , that if  Peter did not  REMT  their  SINS  that they RETAINED  forever their  SINS .

dan p

 

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #7 on: Fri May 13, 2022 - 21:59:21 »
But he, willing to justify himself, said...
And you believe that only God can  forgive  SINS ?  I do too !!

 But explain  John  20:23 Whose soever  SINS  ye  remit ,  they  are  REMITTED   unto  them , and whose sins ye   RETAIN , they  are  RETAINED .

The  disciples were given this  authority in verse 22 !

 Also  remember that unto  Peter was given the  KEYS  to the  KINGDOM of  HEAVEN  and these  KEYS  were used in  ACTS .

And the  Greek words they are  RETAIN / KRATEO  is in the  Greek  PERFECT  TENSE  and that means , that if  Peter did not  REMT  their  SINS  that they RETAINED  forever their  SINS .

dan p
I don't see a difficulty.  God pledges to back Peter.  If Peter says so, God will back Him up and make it so.

Jarrod

Offline RB

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #8 on: Sat May 14, 2022 - 04:33:18 »
And you say that you are under  GRACE ?
The Holy Ghost through Paul said God's children are~did you not read Romans 6?
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Romans 6:6-15~"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Quote
In  Eph 2:8 it reads :
Dan, I never mentioned Ephesians 2:8,9~but would gladly give an exposition of those scriptures without using the Greek, which language is not my mother tongue; besides, I see no need of being puff up with a sense of convincing others that I do know when I truly have never seen the originals (and have NO DESIRE to learn Greek so that I can understand the Scripture, that's a big lie from the father of lies!) and neither has any man living past the very time frame they were given; they are long gone and God did not need them to preserve His word, he was more than able to do so Himself without the help of man protecting His original spoken words to the saints in each city they were sent.

I read this written around five hundred years ago just after the KJV came out into our own language and here's what one Baptist minister wrote concerning men who still wanted to go to the Greek:

"Greek & Hebrew Knowledge as an Idolatrous Substitute for Understanding the Holy Scripture~The Priests say that we know not the original, and our Bibles are not rightly translated, nor cannot be pronounced according to the original; besides in translations there are errors, for no translation is simply authentical, and the undoubted Word of God. We demand of you, answer if you can; as to how know you that your Hebrew and Greek copies are true copies? Is it not possible for any to write contrary to their copy, if copies may be printed false, they may be written false, the art of Printing is not above 350 years old. Can you produce the first original copy, or any of those the Apostles wrote? If not, the cause is the same and you know the original no more than those that know not Greek or Hebrew? If you may depend upon the faithfulness of the Writer and Printer of your Copies, why not others upon those that did it upon oath? Doctor Fulke in his confutation of the Rheims Testament justifieth the English Translation of the Bible. {William Fulke “New Testament Confutation,” 1589} But we receive not the truth by tradition. I would know of you that are so for Hebrew and Greek, &c., if the knowledge of the tongues be sufficient to teach those that have those tongues the mind of the Spirit of God in the Scriptures or no? If yea, then all that know these tongues know the mind of God; if no, then it is but an insufficient help, and what is an insufficient help worth more than nothing. The knowledge of Greek and Hebrew is help to read a Greek and Hebrew Bible, because else they cannot read them. So the knowledge of the English tongue is of necessity to read the English Bible. The cause is the same; but understanding the English tongue, and reading it in the Bible cannot give them to understand, the meaning of it no more than the knowledge of the tongues Greek and Hebrew though it helps them to read the Bible in those tongues, yet is not able to give them to understand the meaning of it. That this is so, some of them, who know the tongues confess; for Apollo was a learned man, he saw the first copies of the Bible, and if that could have caused him to know the mind of God what need had he to learn of Aquila a tradesman {one of the laity as the Priests use to say} and Priscilla his wife the mind of God as he did. {Acts.18:26}

Also, what is the reason that those that know the tongues cannot agree among themselves? What is the mind of God in his Word, that some of you in your expositions are as contrary to each other as light is to darkness; the natural man cannot perceive the things that be of God; a natural man may be, and some are learned men it’s confessed; some of the Jesuits are good Scholars, &c., for they know the tongues, &c.; then it will follow a man may be such a learned man and yet cannot understand nor perceive the things of God. Nicodemus was a great scholar and teacher in Israel yet how simple was he concerning the meaning of Christ’s words. Tell me then what a help their human learning is to them in spiritual knowledge in the things of the Spirit. The Word saith that he reveals to us the deep things of God by his Spirit, {I Cor.2:10;} he saith not by Greek and Hebrew. If our translation be true then we can tell the meaning of it as well as you; if it be not true tell me what is that Preaching worth that is proved by a false translation, and if we must believe contrary to our translation because you say so, what is this but an implicit faith and human? And seeing you so differ among yourselves about the meaning of the word or the mind of God in it, tell me, how I may know which of you I am to believe? Also you confess that one word {in the ‘original’} could bear nine or ten divers significations; how know you which of them is the mind of God in that place, unless he reveal it to you? And if God please he can reveal it to a simple man, and God doth do so, and this is that for which Christ thanks his Father, because he hath hid these things from the wise and the learned, and revealed it unto babes, “the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee; and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed; and the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee; and he saith, I am not learned.” “For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes; the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.” {Is.29:10-12} Neither of them can read it, both put it off for they cannot understand it, the unlearned thinks as he hath been taught, that if he were learned in Greek and Hebrew he could understand it; but the former who was such a learned man could not do it, it is hid from the learned; for it’s not in being learned, nor in not being learned. What then will some say, it is because God hath not revealed it to them therefore they do not know it. The Lord saith that none can know the things of God, but he to whom the Spirit will reveal them. {I Cor.2:9-16} {See also Ps.119:99,100}

The knowledge of Greek, Hebrew and English are all human learning of equal excellency, necessity, and use for the translation and reading of the Bible; and as without the knowledge of Greek and Hebrew, the Bible could not be translated into English, so he that translated the Bible into English, could not have done it without the knowledge of the English tongue; therefore there is the same use and help and necessity of the English tongue as of the Greek or Hebrew tongue; so there is the same to be said for the French and Dutch tongue, and all other tongues and therefore why the Greek and Hebrew tongues should be of any more use and excellency than other tongues, there is no reason to be given for it. As Aaron the Priest set up the golden calf it was called a god and Aaron made Proclamation, {Ex.32:4-8, &c.,} and the people idolized it and danced about it, so the Priests have set up Greek and Hebrew as a god, and the people rejoice exceedingly in it, for they Idolize it and fall down and worship it, because the Priest have made a Proclamation for it and commended it for such a rare thing to help them to the knowledge of the mind of God. A golden business by custom is turned into a necessity and it is in such an esteem as they do idolize it and worship it, as they did the calf. But, what, are there not means and helps to the understanding the Scriptures without Greek and Hebrew? Yes, only the self-evidencing light of the Spirit of God, which first inspired the Pen-men of Scriptures, who is in the hearts of the Saints, the only Interpreter of the Scriptures. Secondly; the knowledge of the body of Divinity, or the Analogy of the faith, to which the Scripture is to be referred for its right interpretation. Thirdly; the Law of God written in the hearts of the Lord’s, which favors the truth, and disrelishes errors. The fourth help to the understanding the Scriptures, is the manifold experience of varieties of temptations, and the experiences of the work of Grace in the soul. Lastly, to compare Scriptures that are dark with Scriptures of the same nature that are more plain, and so to let the Scriptures expound themselves. I conclude this, all men are pure blind, yea dead, till God gives life, and opens men’s eyes. And although human learning is necessary for translating the Scriptures, &c. yet many idolize it, as the children of Israel did.

Samuel Richardson wrote 1650, or thereabouts." around forty years after the first edition of the KJV.

Salvation is given freely by grace through faith, but that faith is NOT of ourselves, it was the faith of Christ, that God was able to save freely by grace.  I'll say much more on this if you desire to hear it.
« Last Edit: Sat May 14, 2022 - 04:36:14 by RB »

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #8 on: Sat May 14, 2022 - 04:33:18 »

Offline dan p

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #9 on: Sat May 14, 2022 - 14:11:25 »
And you say that the  originals words are  corrupted , and all translations use the same HEBREW and  GREEK  words and they seem  to translate it differently .

 The  HEBREW  WORD  KAPAR  is found  , some  71 times in the  OLD  TESTAMENT , Ex 29:36 ,  30:10 and  16 , Lev 23:27 and  16 and  those 71 times if  ATONEMENT are not there and mean nothing ?

 Plus there are  many  figures of  SPEECH , like  Metonymy , Oxymoron and  Ellipsis  AND there so many  more .

 dan p

Offline RB

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #10 on: Sat May 14, 2022 - 14:42:24 »
And you say that the  originals words are  corrupted
Dan, I never said that, show me where I did. You are confused.
Quote from: dan p on: Today at 14:11:25
The  HEBREW  WORD  KAPAR  is found , some  71 times in the  OLD  TESTAMENT, Ex 29:36, 30:10 and 16, Lev 23:27 and 16, and those 71 times if  ATONEMENT are not there and mean nothing?
Dan, you have lost me, I do not know what you are attempting to prove, not sure you do either.
Quote from: dan p on: Today at 14:11:25
Plus there are  many  figures of  SPEECH , like  Metonymy , Oxymoron and  Ellipsis  AND there so many  more .
Okay, I agree, but what does this have to do with:
Quote from: OP question
WHERE  DID  ATONMENT END?
While you are on this one point, let me mention this is exactly what we have in Ephesians 2:8,9 concerning the word FAITH~it's a Metonymy faith is NOT of ourselves~salvation from sin and condemnation was freely imparted to the children of God's promises BASED UPON JESUS' faith! Paul taught the saints in Rome the very same truth, which is to be expected.
Quote
Romans 3:22-24~"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"
All of the children of God said AMEN, praise be to the Lamb of God for ever and ever!
« Last Edit: Sun May 15, 2022 - 03:55:20 by RB »

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #11 on: Sun May 15, 2022 - 05:23:15 »
Why do you ask when atonement ended, as if the Old Testament sacrifices were EVER for atonement?  There is only one who can atone for sins, God Himself.  He has made atonement, just once, and that once is sufficient for all time.
I am not certain what it is that you are trying to say here, but there are dozens and dozens of passages in the OT, similar to Leviticus 1:1-4, that suggest otherwise.

The LORD called Moses and spoke to him from the tent of meeting, saying, "Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, then any one of you brings an offering to the LORD, you shall bring your offering of livestock from the herd or from the flock. "If his offering is a burnt offering from the herd, he shall offer a male without blemish. He shall bring it to the entrance of the tent of meeting, that he may be accepted before the LORD. He shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #12 on: Sun May 15, 2022 - 06:08:51 »
Samuel Richardson wrote 1650, or thereabouts." around forty years after the first edition of the KJV.
And what he wrote there in 1650, or thereabouts, was pure nonsense.

Quote from: RB
Salvation is given freely by grace through faith, but that faith is NOT of ourselves, it was the faith of Christ, that God was able to save freely by grace.
You like to hang your hat on the word "of" in the phrase "faith of Christ".  But of course, Paul never said or wrote anything like that.  He wrote in Greek and there is no "of" or its equivalent in Greek.  It appears only by translation, a translation which can be tainted by the translator. That is why one must always appeal to several different translations in those instances where differences occur.  So then in the case of passages such as Romans 3:22, all agree that what Paul wrote there was "διὰ πίστεως ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ". The question then is what is the correct English translation of that phrase.  Nearly all proficient in the Greek of the NT disagree with your interpretation.

Even one of your go-to commentary authors, John Gill, disagrees with your interpretation.  He says, referencing the KJV,"Here it is said to be "by faith of Jesus Christ"; not by that faith which Christ himself had as man, but by that faith, of which he [is]the author and object: the Alexandrian copy reads, "by faith in Jesus Christ"; I should perhaps note that I do not fully agree with Gill here, but he clearly does not agree with you.

Offline dan p

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #13 on: Mon May 16, 2022 - 13:11:42 »
 And I do not know  who  John  Gill is and never have read what he has written .

 ATONEMENT  has to end and it ended at the  cross , as  Christ had to pay for  ALL  sins committed .

And we see that  Hebrews 9:15 says where , the  Old  Covenant sins were paid .

And that is all , that I am  pointing too and all can now see the  difference opinions that there are .

And you have said that  ONLY  God can  forgive  SINS , and yet in John 20:23  Peter did  REMIT  SINS and what say you ??

 dan p
« Last Edit: Thu May 19, 2022 - 12:38:03 by dan p »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #14 on: Mon May 16, 2022 - 22:33:37 »
I am not certain what it is that you are trying to say here, but there are dozens and dozens of passages in the OT, similar to Leviticus 1:1-4, that suggest otherwise.

The LORD called Moses and spoke to him from the tent of meeting, saying, "Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, then any one of you brings an offering to the LORD, you shall bring your offering of livestock from the herd or from the flock. "If his offering is a burnt offering from the herd, he shall offer a male without blemish. He shall bring it to the entrance of the tent of meeting, that he may be accepted before the LORD. He shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
I think I was clear.  Animal sacrifices are NOT EFFECTIVE for atonement:

Heb 10:4   For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

I actually did quite a bit of research on this in the OTHER atonemAnt topic.  I looked up every occurence of the Hebrew words for 'atonement' and 'sacrifice' and 'offering' in the Old Testament. It turns out ALL of those "dozens and dozens" of references you mentioned are contained within Leviticus and Numbers...

Quote from: me
...the Hebrew word for atonement is first used about sacrifices in Exodus 29, which is after the giving of the commandments at Sinai but before the Israelites entered Canaan.  It shows up a lot in Leviticus and Numbers in the instructions for the Levites about how to offer sacrifices.

It is nearly absent from Deuteronomy...  The only reference to atonement by sacrifice is in chapter 21, and there it is the elders of the town who are offering the sacrifice rather than priests or Levites.  Likewise, this word doesn't crop up much through the books of history.  The Psalms and prophets speak of atonement with more regularity, but there again it is NOT the priests making atonement.  The prophets ask God Himself to make a covering for Israel.

I went back and reviewed some other similar words - sacrifice and offering - and they occur with regularity throughout the books of history (but not in Deuteronomy).  They just aren't for the purpose of atonement.  Indeed when you get into the major prophets, they are very clear in saying that God REJECTS offerings from the guilty.  Sacrifices do NOT cover for wickedness.  It is only God Himself who can atone, making a covering for the people.

So the case is that 64 books of the Bible agree that ONLY GOD CAN MAKE ATONEMENT.  2 books SEEM TO IMPLY that the Levitical priests can also make atonement.

The difficulty is not that hard to resolve.  We have multiple books of the Bible on record condemning the priests specifically for their attempts to make sacrifice into a license to sin.  The Levitical priesthood DID offer sacrifices for atonement.  They were mistaken in doing so.  That was not authorized by God, and He DID NOT ACCEPT those sacrifices.

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #15 on: Tue May 17, 2022 - 07:49:34 »
Jarrod, I generally think your views are well thought out, even in those instances that I do not agree with you.  But in this instance, I think you have missed it completely. Most of the references to atonement in the OT are indeed in Leviticus and Numbers.  There are other references however.  The first mentions of atonement is found in Exodus. The word is found in several other books as well.  Atonement, in the sense of forgiveness or pardon, was indeed available under the Old Covenant. But that in itself is not sufficient for salvation.  There is the debt or punishment that is required to be paid for sin even when that sin has received forgiveness.  It is that debt or punishment for sin that cannot be accounted for with the blood of bulls and goats as noted in Hebrews. It was only under the New Covenant through the blood of Christ Jesus with His death on the cross that the debt for the sins of the world have been paid.  Under the Old Covenant forgiveness of sin was available; however, it is only under the New Covenant, that both forgiveness and payment of the debt for sin is available.  In the case of the Old Testament saints, that payment of debt with the blood of Christ Jesus was made retroactive.

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #16 on: Tue May 17, 2022 - 14:36:15 »
And I do not know  who  John Gill is and never have read what he has written.
Dan that's your lost~John Gill was a Baptist minister during the mid-1750-1790s.  https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/  Overall very good on a scale of one to ten~6-8 IMO, but that's just me~he had the benefit of reading behind some great men before him and reading he did, one of the most knowledgeable writers you will ever read behind.
Quote
ATONEMENT  has to end and it ended at the  cross, as  Christ had to pay for  ALL  sins committed.
Not all sins that have ever been committed, his atonement was only for the church, his chosen body. Matthew 1:21~so much more could be said~but will add what John Owens wrote around five hundred years ago:

“The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

1. All the sins of all men, or

2. All the sins of some men, or

3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

a. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved.

b. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.

c. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!”.....John Owens

Dan, NO MAN living can answer this without condemning the position they are holding if they are honest with themselves and before God.

Quote from:  dan p on: Yesterday at 13:11:42
And you have said that  ONLY  God can  forgive  SINS , and yet in John 20:23  Peter did  REMIT  SINS and what bsay you ??
I will tell you in the morning with another post. But will say for now~No man has the power and certainly not the "right" to forgive sins~but ALL SAINTS have the gift to say who is of God and who are not of God USING the word of God to do so~we shall come back and speak more concerning this question you have asked.
« Last Edit: Tue May 17, 2022 - 14:39:15 by RB »

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #17 on: Tue May 17, 2022 - 17:50:18 »
And in  John  20:23 , Jesus gave  the  disciples the  power to  REMIT  SINS , what say you ??

 dan p

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #18 on: Tue May 17, 2022 - 18:37:06 »
Jarrod, I generally think your views are well thought out, even in those instances that I do not agree with you.  But in this instance, I think you have missed it completely.

Most of the references to atonement in the OT are indeed in Leviticus and Numbers.  There are other references however.  The first mentions of atonement is found in Exodus. The word is found in several other books as well. 

Atonement, in the sense of forgiveness or pardon, was indeed available under the Old Covenant. But that in itself is not sufficient for salvation.  There is the debt or punishment that is required to be paid for sin even when that sin has received forgiveness.  It is that debt or punishment for sin that cannot be accounted for with the blood of bulls and goats as noted in Hebrews. It was only under the New Covenant through the blood of Christ Jesus with His death on the cross that the debt for the sins of the world have been paid.  Under the Old Covenant forgiveness of sin was available; however, it is only under the New Covenant, that both forgiveness and payment of the debt for sin is available.  In the case of the Old Testament saints, that payment of debt with the blood of Christ Jesus was made retroactive.
What do you do with all the places that say God doesn't want sacrifices?

Samuel:  Has the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Look, to obey is better than sacrifice, to hearken than the fat of rams. (1Sa 15:22)

God:  Listen my people, and I will speak; Israel I will testify against thee: I am God, even your God.  I will not justify you for your sacrifices or your burnt offerings, that have been continually before me.  I will take no bullock out of your house, no he-goats out of your folds.  Every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.  I know all the birds of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.  If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and everything in it.  Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats? (Psa 50)

David: For You desire not sacrifice; else would I give it: You delight not in burnt offering. (Psalms 51:16)

God:  When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them... (Jeremiah 14:12)

God: Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts... Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel?  But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves. (Amos 5)

I generally don't like to splatter a bunch of verses across a topic like this, but I have done so here to hopefully show that this isn't an isolated message or verse.  I would rather deal in axioms that weave their way throughout Scripture.

One axiom I find throughout Scripture is this - the Levitical priests are the villains of this story.  From the base of Mt Sinai where they set up the Golden Calf, to the end of the New Testament where we find them crucifying Christ, these are those "sons of the devil" whose "fathers stoned the prophets."  What the priests do/say should NOT be given immediate trust, but questioned.  Just because the Bible records that they DID something, that does NOT mean that it was correct.

Similarly, I find that the prophets are the heroes of this story.  They are the ones who bring God's messages to Israel by inspiration, calling them back to obedience.  These are the ones who litigate against the priesthood and their sacrifices.

Now, if you can accept these as axioms, then it follows that if there is some conflict between what the prophets and priests say, we had better align ourselves with the prophets. 

Jarrod

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #19 on: Wed May 18, 2022 - 05:05:17 »
And in  John  20:23 , Jesus gave the disciples the power to  REMIT SINS, what say you?? dan p
Greetings again Dan~It is not what I say, but what God's word has to say about this subject is the real question that should concern us all. I would think you would the whole heartily agree with me.
Quote
John 20:22,23~"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Dan, can I ask you a question so we can quickly lay to bed a serious corruption of the RCC? Surely you do not believe as they do, now do you? They torture this passage, to support their magical absolutions. If any person do not confess his sins in the ear of the priest, he has no right, in their opinion, to expect forgiveness; for Christ intended that sins should be forgiven through the Apostles, and they cannot absolve without having examined the matter; therefore, confession is necessary. This is not what is taught here, not even close and truly is an abomination in the nostrils of God for wicked men to take this honor unto themselves.

In a few words, the sum of the Gospel; for we must not separate this power of forgiving sins from the office of teaching, with which it is closely connected in this passage. Christ had said a little before, As the living Father hath sent me, so I also send you He now makes a declaration of what is intended and what is meant by this embassy, only he interwove with that declaration what was necessary, that he gave to them his Holy Spirit, in order that they might have nothing from themselves.

The principal design of preaching the Gospel is, that men may be reconciled to God, and this is accomplished by the unconditional pardon of sins; as Paul also informs us, when he calls the Gospel, on this account, the ministry of reconciliation, (2nd Corinthians 5:18.) Many other things, undoubtedly, are contained in the Gospel, but the principal object which God intends to accomplish by it is, to receive men into favor by not imputing their sins. If, therefore, we wish to show that we are faithful ministers of the Gospel, we must give our most earnest attention to this subject; for the chief point of difference between the Gospel and heathen philosophy lies in this, that the Gospel makes the salvation of men to consist in the forgiveness of sins through free grace. This is the source of the other blessings which God bestows, such as, that God enlightens and regenerates us by his Spirit, that he forms us anew to his image, that he arms us with unshaken firmness against the world and Satan. Thus the whole doctrine of godliness, and the spiritual building of the Church, rests on this foundation, that God, having acquitted us from all sins, adopts us to be his children by free grace. We can boldly proclaim that there is NO FORGIVENESS in any other name and in no other manner than by which the gospel we preached from heaven declares~the only manner by which sins can be forgiven is by men who have the Holy Ghost as the apostles did can alone proclaim to men this IS THE MANNER BY WHICH SINS ARE FORGIVEN and other NO OTHER manner, by such preaching it can be said that men full of the Holy Ghost can either remit sins or retain sins by the very gospel with they preach. Actually, we see this done on most forums, not sure why folks have trouble with such verses.

But it may be asked since he appoints them to be only the witnesses or heralds of this blessing, and not the authors of it, and not the true power behind it~then why does he extol their power in such lofty terms? I reply, Christ did so in order to confirm their faith. Nothing is of more importance to us, than to be able to believe firmly, that our sins do not come into remembrance before God. Zacharias, in his song, calls it the knowledge of salvation, (Luke 1:77;) and, since God employs the testimony of men to prove it, consciences will never yield to it, unless they perceive God himself speaking in their person. Paul accordingly says, We exhort you to be reconciled to God, as if Christ besought you by us, (2nd Corinthians 5:20.)

Much above I'm, indebted to men who have gone before me, Calvin, Richardson, Gill and Brine just to mention a few.
« Last Edit: Wed May 18, 2022 - 05:09:09 by RB »

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #20 on: Wed May 18, 2022 - 06:19:02 »
What do you do with all the places that say God doesn't want sacrifices?
What God wants is obedience, perfect obedience.  But knowing that no one will ever do that, God put into place the means whereby the imperfect can receive salvation. But that doesn't mean that God no longer requires obedience.  Paul recognized that some might think that since there was a way for imperfect man to receive salvation then sinning was no big deal.  He said, Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? (Rom 5:20-6:2)

What all the rituals in the Old Covenant provided through the blood sacrifices was forgiveness.  But there was still the penalty which must be paid. The message of the gospel is that Jesus has paid the penalty for all who believe and are baptized in His name (Rom 6:2-11),
« Last Edit: Wed May 18, 2022 - 06:24:40 by 4WD »

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #21 on: Wed May 18, 2022 - 12:27:42 »
What God wants is obedience, perfect obedience.  But knowing that no one will ever do that, God put into place the means whereby the imperfect can receive salvation. But that doesn't mean that God no longer requires obedience.  Paul recognized that some might think that since there was a way for imperfect man to receive salvation then sinning was no big deal.  He said, Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? (Rom 5:20-6:2)

What all the rituals in the Old Covenant provided through the blood sacrifices was forgiveness.  But there was still the penalty which must be paid. The message of the gospel is that Jesus has paid the penalty for all who believe and are baptized in His name (Rom 6:2-11),
What exactly do you think the animal sacrifices provided?  God clearly got nothing out of them! (He said so.)

Here is an exercise that helps me understand Scripture: I take a passage, and I try to re-translate any words which are not in common use; replace the jargon with clear speech.  And as nearly as I can tell, the vernacular equivalent of "burnt offerings" is "BBQ."

So you can tell what I think they got out of animal sacrifices.  God allowed them, because God is good AND SO IS BBQ.  But I have yet to encounter the BBQ that is so good that all my wrong-doing was covered up.  I don't think I'll ever find BBQ that good (but I'm willing to keep trying!)  ::readytoeat::

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #22 on: Wed May 18, 2022 - 14:23:02 »
Speaking of animal sacrifices, you said:
  God allowed them,....
No, God commanded them.

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #23 on: Thu May 19, 2022 - 12:18:59 »
Speaking of animal sacrifices, you said: No, God commanded them.
Still avoiding the question..

What do you do with all the places where God said He does not want and does not accept sacrifices?

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #24 on: Thu May 19, 2022 - 12:59:08 »
 And there are two  things to consider in John 20:22  that all seem to never  check !

 Jesus says to them in  verse 22 .

 And  Jesus  breathed  on them , and   saith unto them  Receive ye  (  THE  )  HOLY  SPIRIT !
But  the  word  THE  in  brackets  is   NOT  in the  Greek  text !!

 It should  read RECEIVE ye    (  POWER )  HOLY  SPIRIT !  Check  Acts 2:38  .

 When it  reads  RECEIVE ye   THE  HOLY SPRIT , it means the  INDWELLING of the  HOLY  SPIRIT .

 #2  And from reading  Acts 2:38   REPENT  and be   baptized  to  REMIT  their  SINS

 By  the  way , I have a  book on the  Greek word  THE and  also  STRONG'S DICTIONARY  also will tell if the  word  THE  is used in any  verse .

 dan p
« Last Edit: Thu May 19, 2022 - 13:04:40 by dan p »

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #25 on: Fri May 20, 2022 - 05:41:41 »
Still avoiding the question..

What do you do with all the places where God said He does not want and does not accept sacrifices?

You need to see to whom those statements were made.  They were not universal statements. For example, with respect to Jeremiah 14:12 we see in Jeremiah 14:10 Thus says the LORD concerning this people: "They have loved to wander thus; they have not restrained their feet; therefore the LORD does not accept them; now he will remember their iniquity and punish their sins." I think such statements are similar to Jesus' statement in Matthew 7:21.

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #26 on: Fri May 20, 2022 - 10:36:28 »
You need to see to whom those statements were made.  They were not universal statements. For example, with respect to Jeremiah 14:12 we see in Jeremiah 14:10 Thus says the LORD concerning this people: "They have loved to wander thus; they have not restrained their feet; therefore the LORD does not accept them; now he will remember their iniquity and punish their sins." I think such statements are similar to Jesus' statement in Matthew 7:21.
Jeremiah 14 is written to the whole of Judah (verse 2). 

At the time, Israel no longer existed, so the people being addressed here are literally every remaining Jew.  That's universal.

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #27 on: Fri May 20, 2022 - 22:16:32 »
It has not ended, and will not end, until our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ steps down from His position as our High Priest, who ever liveth to make intercession for us.

Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.


Atonement cannot end, while intercession still proceeds, regarding salvation by faith in Christ's atonement for every individual, to accept or reject. Christ has made His sacrifice of atonement once far all, now we must each decide to follow Him in that experience, or not. Atonement takes two, not one. Christ has made atonement for all, now who will accept this, and enter into atonement with Him?

Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.





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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #28 on: Sat May 21, 2022 - 07:38:28 »
Jeremiah 14 is written to the whole of Judah (verse 2). 

At the time, Israel no longer existed, so the people being addressed here are literally every remaining Jew.  That's universal.

The point is not to whom it was written but rather why.  Obviously God did not command something that He did not want to happen.

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #29 on: Mon May 23, 2022 - 11:25:43 »
The point is not to whom it was written but rather why.  Obviously God did not command something that He did not want to happen.
Not wrong, but WHY did God tell them to do this?

It wasn't because it benefited God somehow.  I've already posted verses that prove it.

It wasn't for the remission of sins.  The Bible specifically says that animal sacrifices don't do that, and we have God on record saying He doesn't accept sacrifices from the wicked/guilty.

I think it's more a question of 'why not?'  They were going to sacrifice no matter what, because barbeque.  It was better to have them doing it in God's name than in the name of some other less benevolent deity.

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #30 on: Mon May 23, 2022 - 11:51:54 »
So then, what do you think it means to "offer a bull as a sin offering for atonement"?  What do you think it means when it speaks of being forgiven? 


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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #31 on: Mon May 23, 2022 - 12:55:03 »
So then, what do you think it means to "offer a bull as a sin offering for atonement"?.
Exodus 29?  If so, 'atonement' should probably be translated 'smearing.'  These are HOW-TO instructions on sacrifices and the altar: first you kill the animal, now smear the blood on the horns of the altar, now pour oil on it, etc.  That goes for a lot of the chapters instructing Aaron's sons in priestcraft - from the last few chapters of Exodus up through the end of Numbers.

That said, the priests absolutely DID offer animal sacrifices for the purpose of appeasing God, and to try to make a covering for the people's wrong-doing.  We know this because the prophets correct them about it over and over, telling them that God is not appeased by sacrifices, that He doesn't accept sacrifices from the wicked, that He does not acquit the guilty, and that only God Himself can atone for the people's wrong-doing.

What do you think it means when it speaks of being forgiven?
"Forgive" is a translation for several words.  In some places it means "bear," as in "I will put up with your crap."  In other places, it means "remit" and in others it means "pardon."  Was there a certain chapter you were referring to?

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #32 on: Mon May 23, 2022 - 14:35:28 »
No one in particular, but yeah, a bunch.  You speak as if there was never any forgiveness of sin provided in the OT.  I believe there was.  But forgiveness is not the whole story.  There is still the debt owed, and that is what Jesus' death on the cross provided that could be obtain in no other way other than eternal condemnation.  Forgiveness of sin and redemption, i.e. payment of debt owed, are not the same thing, although under the New Covenant, both are provided upon believing and being baptized in the name of Christ Jesus.  Even John's baptism was a baptism for forgiveness.
« Last Edit: Mon May 23, 2022 - 14:59:39 by 4WD »

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #33 on: Tue Jun 07, 2022 - 19:13:31 »
 And  in  John 19:30  Jesus  says  it  is  finished .
What   is  finished , is the  sacrifice for  SIN >

 The Greek  says  IT  IS  FINISHED is in the  Greek  PERFECT  TENSE , PASSIVE  VOICE  and in the  INDICATIVE  MOOD >

 Sins  HAD  to be  paid  PAST  ,  PRESENT  and for  the  FUTURE >

 Heb  9:15 , all sins  had to be  PAID  for all  sins  COMMITTED  under the  OLD  COVENANT ,  as Christ  could  ONLY  die  ONCE .

 dan p

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Re: WHERE DID ATONMENT END ?
« Reply #34 on: Tue Jun 07, 2022 - 19:15:58 »
And Christ’s blood we contact in baptism continually cleases our sins per 1 John chapter 1.
« Last Edit: Tue Jun 07, 2022 - 19:25:53 by Jaime »

 

     
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