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Offline Bonnie

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Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« on: Thu Feb 14, 2008 - 16:36:30 »
Do you know where the Gentiles came from?  Who was the first Gentile?

dayspring (Bonnie)

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Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« on: Thu Feb 14, 2008 - 16:36:30 »

Offline DCR

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #1 on: Thu Feb 14, 2008 - 16:38:39 »
Adam.

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #1 on: Thu Feb 14, 2008 - 16:38:39 »

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #2 on: Thu Feb 14, 2008 - 16:48:55 »
Adam.

So simple and to the point!

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #2 on: Thu Feb 14, 2008 - 16:48:55 »

Offline DCR

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #3 on: Thu Feb 14, 2008 - 17:01:57 »
I guess you could say that from the time of Jacob (named Israel) forward... anyone not in that lineage would be considered a Gentile.

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #3 on: Thu Feb 14, 2008 - 17:01:57 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #4 on: Thu Feb 14, 2008 - 17:21:40 »
I guess you could say that from the time of Jacob (named Israel) forward... anyone not in that lineage would be considered a Gentile.

Big thanks for your reply.  I remember that Jacob took a wife from among the Gentiles.
Maybe the start of them just isn't in the bible.

dayspring (Bonnie)

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #4 on: Thu Feb 14, 2008 - 17:21:40 »



Offline DCR

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #5 on: Thu Feb 14, 2008 - 17:24:32 »
I guess you could say that from the time of Jacob (named Israel) forward... anyone not in that lineage would be considered a Gentile.

Big thanks for your reply.  I remember that Jacob took a wife from among the Gentiles.
Maybe the start of them just isn't in the bible.

dayspring (Bonnie)

But, see, before Jacob (or arguably more specifically, before Abraham), everyone was a Gentile.  Or, maybe more accurately, there were neither Jews nor Gentiles.  There were just the people who lived back then who were the ancestors of the Jews and Gentiles.

Gentiles, as is conventionally meant by that term, simply means non-Jewish or non-Hebrew.  If we say that Jews are the descendents of Israel/Jacob, then before Jacob, the "Jews" didn't exist. 

Of course, the word "Gentiles" only has meaning in the context of there being "Jews."  Before the "Jews," there was really neither Jew nor Gentile.  There were just people.

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #5 on: Thu Feb 14, 2008 - 17:24:32 »

Offline Harold

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #6 on: Thu Feb 14, 2008 - 17:31:52 »
I like the Abraham version myself, the circumcision of the Jews came from God's covenant with Abraham. They were the children of the promise. But all in all DCR is correct also.

FTL

Offline DCR

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #7 on: Thu Feb 14, 2008 - 17:39:16 »
I like the Abraham version myself, the circumcision of the Jews came from God's covenant with Abraham. They were the children of the promise. But all in all DCR is correct also.

FTL

Then, we'll say that Abraham is the starting point.  Of course, one difficulty there is the question of Ishmael and his descendents.  They are also descendents of Abraham... yet, I think most would consider them to be "Gentiles."

If you really want to get technical... I believe that "Jews" are actually descended from Judah (or at least the surviving tribes after the captivity)... and the term didn't really come into use until some time around and after the Babylonian Captivity and/or the destruction of the northern kingdom of Israel (in contrast to the southern kingdom of "Judah").

 ::pondering::

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #8 on: Thu Feb 14, 2008 - 17:39:54 »
I guess you could say that from the time of Jacob (named Israel) forward... anyone not in that lineage would be considered a Gentile.

Big thanks for your reply.  I remember that Jacob took a wife from among the Gentiles.
Maybe the start of them just isn't in the bible.

dayspring (Bonnie)

But, see, before Jacob (or arguably more specifically, before Abraham), everyone was a Gentile.  Or, maybe more accurately, there were neither Jews nor Gentiles.  There were just the people who lived back then who were the ancestors of the Jews and Gentiles.

Gentiles, as is conventionally meant by that term, simply means non-Jewish or non-Hebrew.  If we say that Jews are the descendents of Israel/Jacob, then before Jacob, the "Jews" didn't exist. 

Of course, the word "Gentiles" only has meaning in the context of there being "Jews."  Before the "Jews," there was really neither Jew nor Gentile.  There were just people.

That rings a bell.  God told Abram to get out of the land of his kinsmen and go to a land He would show him. (His father and his kinsmen being evil.)

I never knew why Lot got to come along but I assume he must have been under Abram's care, as in his household.

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #8 on: Thu Feb 14, 2008 - 17:39:54 »

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #9 on: Thu Feb 14, 2008 - 17:40:56 »
I like the Abraham version myself, the circumcision of the Jews came from God's covenant with Abraham. They were the children of the promise. But all in all DCR is correct also.

FTL

True!

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #10 on: Thu Feb 14, 2008 - 17:50:41 »
I like the Abraham version myself, the circumcision of the Jews came from God's covenant with Abraham. They were the children of the promise. But all in all DCR is correct also.

FTL

Then, we'll say that Abraham is the starting point.  Of course, one difficulty there is the question of Ishmael and his descendants.  They are also descendent's of Abraham... yet, I think most would consider them to be "Gentiles."

If you really want to get technical... I believe that "Jews" are actually descended from Judah (or at least the surviving tribes after the captivity)... and the term didn't really come into use until some time around and after the Babylonian Captivity and/or the destruction of the northern kingdom of Israel.

 ::pondering::


I'm sure hoping to learn because most of this goes completely over my head.
God did make a promise to Ishmael and his descendants also, didn't he?
Perhaps the Muslims are his descendants.?
And the Jews came from Isaac.?

dayspring

Offline Harold

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #11 on: Thu Feb 14, 2008 - 18:24:42 »
I like the Abraham version myself, the circumcision of the Jews came from God's covenant with Abraham. They were the children of the promise. But all in all DCR is correct also.

FTL

Then, we'll say that Abraham is the starting point.  Of course, one difficulty there is the question of Ishmael and his descendants.  They are also descendent's of Abraham... yet, I think most would consider them to be "Gentiles."

If you really want to get technical... I believe that "Jews" are actually descended from Judah (or at least the surviving tribes after the captivity)... and the term didn't really come into use until some time around and after the Babylonian Captivity and/or the destruction of the northern kingdom of Israel.

 ::pondering::


I'm sure hoping to learn because most of this goes completely over my head.
God did make a promise to Ishmael and his descendants also, didn't he?
Perhaps the Muslims are his descendants.?
And the Jews came from Isaac.?

dayspring

Ishmael was not a child of the Messianic promise, but the child of God's promise to Hagar.

Isaac was the child of God's promise to Abraham and Sarah. As DCR pointed out from Judah, the son of Israel/Jacob, would come the Messiah.

All who are not Jewish by birth are gentiles.

FTL

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #12 on: Thu Feb 14, 2008 - 19:16:19 »
I like the Abraham version myself, the circumcision of the Jews came from God's covenant with Abraham. They were the children of the promise. But all in all DCR is correct also.

FTL

Then, we'll say that Abraham is the starting point.  Of course, one difficulty there is the question of Ishmael and his descendants.  They are also descendent's of Abraham... yet, I think most would consider them to be "Gentiles."

If you really want to get technical... I believe that "Jews" are actually descended from Judah (or at least the surviving tribes after the captivity)... and the term didn't really come into use until some time around and after the Babylonian Captivity and/or the destruction of the northern kingdom of Israel.

 ::pondering::


I'm sure hoping to learn because most of this goes completely over my head.
God did make a promise to Ishmael and his descendants also, didn't he?
Perhaps the Muslims are his descendants.?
And the Jews came from Isaac.?

dayspring

Ishmael was not a child of the Messianic promise, but the child of God's promise to Hagar.

Isaac was the child of God's promise to Abraham and Sarah. As DCR pointed out from Judah, the son of Israel/Jacob, would come the Messiah.

All who are not Jewish by birth are gentiles.

FTL


Hi Harold,

Sarah, Abraham's wife, is the one who had Abraham go into her handmaiden, Hagar.  Sarah, I think was a bit impatient and unbelieving at first that she would be blessed with a child at her age.



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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #13 on: Fri Feb 15, 2008 - 11:51:23 »
And to the question about Ishmael and Muslims, that is indeed their claim.  And, it would sure seem to  Ishmael and his descendants (both pre/post Mohammad) have lived at enmity with Israel throughout history thus far, have they not?  Prophecy fulfilled, istm.

Quote
Genesis 16:12 Holman CSB:
This man will be [like] a wild ass. His hand will be against everyone, and everyone's hand will be against him; he will live at odds with all his brothers.

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #14 on: Fri Feb 15, 2008 - 12:15:07 »
And to the question about Ishmael and Muslims, that is indeed their claim.  And, it would sure seem to  Ishmael and his descendants (both pre/post Mohammad) have lived at enmity with Israel throughout history thus far, have they not?  Prophecy fulfilled, istm.



Quote
Genesis 16:12 Holman CSB:
This man will be [like] a wild ass. His hand will be against everyone, and everyone's hand will be against him; he will live at odds with all his brothers.


The problem is that both sides believe themselves to be right?  And, so they fight, and probably will until Christ puts an end to it.

dayspring (Bonnie)

Offline spurly

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #15 on: Fri Feb 15, 2008 - 14:01:06 »
Adam.

You can even go further back than that - they came from God.

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #16 on: Sat Feb 16, 2008 - 09:10:06 »
Adam.

You can even go further back than that - they came from God.


Yes, but there had to be a time when there were Jews, Gentile's... can we know by Scripture when the differences were made between the people?
Bonnie

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #17 on: Sat Feb 16, 2008 - 09:45:37 »
Adam.

You can even go further back than that - they came from God.


Yes, but there had to be a time when there were Jews, Gentile's... can we know by Scripture when the differences were made between the people?
Bonnie

I think things evolved to that point.  By the time of the first century and the life of Jesus and the Apostles, a certain dynamic existed in the known world that was not the same as what existed, say, 1000-1500 years before that.  There was a whole history to the nation of Israel, which is largely recorded in the Old Testament.  We can see how things played out over time between the people of Israel and those around them that they interacted with.

There was a history behind how Jews related to everyone else.  In the first century, there was even a "hybrid" people called the Samaritans, who were descendents of the intermarriages between Israelites and native Canaanites and Assyrians (especially after the Assyrian conquest)

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #18 on: Sat Feb 16, 2008 - 11:20:18 »
They must have came from those who turned somewhere in thier lives to live as Cain. That seems to be the only way from the information we were given that makes sence. It seems to me that Cain was the dividing point.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #19 on: Sat Feb 16, 2008 - 11:32:46 »
I don't know Bill. There was only one kind of people for a long long time before there was a distinction between Jews and Gentiles beginning with Isaac's birth (the son of promise) but then more specifically Jacob (aka Israel). The Jews were not created separately, they were designated by God as separate from everyone else. Everyone else being Gentiles.

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #20 on: Sat Feb 16, 2008 - 11:34:04 »
The nation of Israel was promised through the seed of Abraham which was Issac, Issac's offspring (Jacob) became Israel and his children the perverbal children of Israel. So I believe a good argument could be made that everyone was a Gentile before the promise was given to Abraham, who became the father of many nations. Only the offspring of Abraham, and technically Jacob would be true Herbrews and not Gentiles.

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #21 on: Sat Feb 16, 2008 - 11:35:34 »
You beat me to it Randy.

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #22 on: Sat Feb 16, 2008 - 15:29:40 »
They must have came from those who turned somewhere in thier lives to live as Cain. That seems to be the only way from the information we were given that makes sence. It seems to me that Cain was the dividing point.

I thought of that too.

Thanks,
Bonnie

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #23 on: Sat Feb 16, 2008 - 15:32:28 »
I don't know Bill. There was only one kind of people for a long long time before there was a distinction between Jews and Gentiles beginning with Isaac's birth (the son of promise) but then more specifically Jacob (aka Israel). The Jews were not created separately, they were designated by God as separate from everyone else. Everyone else being Gentiles.

That makes a lot of sense.  And, Jacob's 12 sons became known as the 12 tribes of Israel.

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #24 on: Sat Feb 16, 2008 - 15:36:05 »
The nation of Israel was promised through the seed of Abraham which was Issac, Issac's offspring (Jacob) became Israel and his children the perverbal children of Israel. So I believe a good argument could be made that everyone was a Gentile before the promise was given to Abraham, who became the father of many nations. Only the offspring of Abraham, and technically Jacob would be true Herbrews and not Gentiles.


That has to be the answer I've been looking for.

Thanks!

Offline damoncrowe

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #25 on: Mon Feb 18, 2008 - 09:38:44 »



That has to be the answer I've been looking for.

Thanks!

This answer, I think, can be found in Genesis 9:24-27.  You know the word "Semite," which means Jew.  It comes from the name Shem.  I believe the blessings and curses that Noah pronounces on his sons gives us three groups of people.  Obviously the Jews would trace their lineage back to Abraham, but even further to Shem considering that they are Semites.  But what of the other two sons.  Canaan, Ham's son, received the "family" curse of being a servant to his brethren.  Like the blessings in this same text, they are not confined to the person they are spoken to.  I believe that Canaan represents the unregenerate pagan here. 
Next a very general blessing is given to Shem or more accurately the "God of Shem."  It has been historically established that Shem is the "father" of the Jews through namesake. 
Next God says of Japheth, "May God enlarge Japheth, and may he dwell in the tents of Shem..."  This I believe is the promise of calling the Gentiles into God's house so to speak in the future.  It is an interesting text to read and reread once you know a little bit of the history.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #26 on: Mon Feb 18, 2008 - 09:44:43 »
But the Arabs are a Semitic people from Shem, but not Jewish and therefore Gentile. The definitive line was the decendents of Isaac. Jacob (Israel) and his twelve son, that became the tribes of Israel.

Offline damoncrowe

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #27 on: Mon Feb 18, 2008 - 10:15:01 »
All through history, you can find places where the Jews split and some became apostate.  Ishmael has been brought up several times and he is a prime example.  I agree that the definitive line for the Jews would be Jacob, but I do think it is interesting about the blessing to Japheth that he would dwell in the tents of Shem. 

I would not say, though, that Ishmael is the father of the gentiles.  He was the son of an Egyptian woman probably of the line of Canaan (IMO).  The gospel plan was to bring the Gentiles into grace also, but it would not seem that Ishmael fits this category, "He shall be a wild man; his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him. . ." 

I do not think it to be a really important argument and I can see others' side also, but I still question the curse and blessings that I mentioned above and to me anyway, it would seem that you have the representation of three groups of people.  Jews, Gentiles, reprobate.

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #28 on: Mon Feb 18, 2008 - 10:35:56 »



That has to be the answer I've been looking for.

Thanks!

This answer, I think, can be found in Genesis 9:24-27.  You know the word "Semite," which means Jew.  It comes from the name Shem.  I believe the blessings and curses that Noah pronounces on his sons gives us three groups of people.  Obviously the Jews would trace their lineage back to Abraham, but even further to Shem considering that they are Semites.  But what of the other two sons.  Canaan, Ham's son, received the "family" curse of being a servant to his brethren.  Like the blessings in this same text, they are not confined to the person they are spoken to.  I believe that Canaan represents the unregenerate pagan here. 
Next a very general blessing is given to Shem or more accurately the "God of Shem."  It has been historically established that Shem is the "father" of the Jews through namesake. 
Next God says of Japheth, "May God enlarge Japheth, and may he dwell in the tents of Shem..."  This I believe is the promise of calling the Gentiles into God's house so to speak in the future.  It is an interesting text to read and reread once you know a little bit of the history.


Abraham was a gentile but it was promised he would be the father of many nations.

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #29 on: Mon Feb 18, 2008 - 10:37:50 »
But the Arabs are a Semitic people from Shem, but not Jewish and therefore Gentile. The definitive line was the decendents of Isaac. Jacob (Israel) and his twelve son, that became the tribes of Israel.

Yes, I agree that the Jews began with Jacob and his 12 sons.

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #30 on: Mon Feb 18, 2008 - 10:43:37 »
All through history, you can find places where the Jews split and some became apostate.  Ishmael has been brought up several times and he is a prime example.  I agree that the definitive line for the Jews would be Jacob, but I do think it is interesting about the blessing to Japheth that he would dwell in the tents of Shem. 

I would not say, though, that Ishmael is the father of the gentiles.  He was the son of an Egyptian woman probably of the line of Canaan (IMO).  The gospel plan was to bring the Gentiles into grace also, but it would not seem that Ishmael fits this category, "He shall be a wild man; his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him. . ." 

I do not think it to be a really important argument and I can see others' side also, but I still question the curse and blessings that I mentioned above and to me anyway, it would seem that you have the representation of three groups of people.  Jews, Gentiles, reprobate.


I believe best to my memory that God made somekind of promises to Ishmael as well as Isaac.
The Musilim's came from Ishmael.

Offline damoncrowe

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #31 on: Mon Feb 18, 2008 - 11:09:44 »



I believe best to my memory that God made somekind of promises to Ishmael as well as Isaac.
The Musilim's came from Ishmael.

The "promise to Ishmael" is in my above post.  It was actually a statement by the Angel of the Lord to Hagar.  The full statement can be found at Genesis 16:11,12. 

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #32 on: Mon Feb 18, 2008 - 11:41:25 »
The nation of Israel was promised through the seed of Abraham which was Issac, Issac's offspring (Jacob) became Israel and his children the perverbal children of Israel. So I believe a good argument could be made that everyone was a Gentile before the promise was given to Abraham, who became the father of many nations. Only the offspring of Abraham, and technically Jacob would be true Herbrews and not Gentiles.


That has to be the answer I've been looking for.

Thanks!

That was actually what I was trying to say earlier... just not in so many words, I guess.

I suppose the dividing point could be said to be with Abraham's promised son, Isaac, and his descendents... however, then you have the problem of Esau and his descendents.  Esau was Jacob's twin brother.  Yet, I don't really know that his descendents would be considered "Jews/Hebrews," even though they're definitely related.

So, I think it really does go back to the children of Israel (Jacob) being Hebrews (or "Jews," as they were later referred to as).  Then, pretty much anyone not in that lineage would be a Gentile.

Offline DCR

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #33 on: Mon Feb 18, 2008 - 11:49:25 »
Bonnie,

To go back to your original post, I think "Where did the Gentiles come from?" may not be the right question.  The question of "Where did the Jews/Hebrews come from" is a little easier to answer, as they were the chosen people... chosen from among the Gentiles.  They were chosen to be separate from the rest of mankind, when God was working within that Covenant.  And, so, the rest of humanity became known as the "Gentiles" from that point forward by default.

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Where Did The Gentiles Come From
« Reply #34 on: Mon Feb 18, 2008 - 13:14:15 »
Bonnie,

To go back to your original post, I think "Where did the Gentiles come from?" may not be the right question.  The question of "Where did the Jews/Hebrews come from" is a little easier to answer, as they were the chosen people... chosen from among the Gentiles.  They were chosen to be separate from the rest of mankind, when God was working within that Covenant.  And, so, the rest of humanity became known as the "Gentiles" from that point forward by default.

Thank you (and everyone else) for your posts.  I have learned a lot.
Yeah, you're definitely right about the title.  lol

God Bless

 

     
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