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Author Topic: Why did God choose Abel?  (Read 8685 times)
p.progress
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« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2009, 12:30:59 PM »



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Why did God choose Abel's sacrifice over Cain's?  They both gave equally and in obedience.  One theory I heard was that, while Abel gave of his first born lambs, in one complete offering, Cain gave a portion over time,  maybe indicating a weaker faith than Abel's.  Thoughts?

love,

Sopranette



Backtracking here a moment: They did not give equally nor did they both give in obedience. Theories and guesses are one thing, but to present the facts would better serve all reading this thread. And that only can be discovered by closely and more thoroughly combing through scripture to discover what is the answers to our questions; or at the least, present the best case scenario founded upon the evidence.


One: Abel did not bring grain, vegetable or fruit, but brought "of his flock"...meaning an animal; specifically meaning a sheep; a "firstling of his flock", ...meaning a young sheep, a lamb; ...which also means a 'clean' animal, as opposed to an unclean one (i.e. not swine). But he also brought "of the fat thereof" of that animal as part of the offering to God. That indicates that the offering was a sacrifice, a blood-sacrifice, ...even indicating a offering for sin - not a 'firstfruits' offering (i.e. the engathering of produce from the fileds) such as was commanded later under the Law (as was at Pentacost).


Two: It wan't that Cain's offering indicated a 'weaker faith'; but rather a lack of faith, a lack of honor and disrespect towards God - he did that which was not "well" or acceptable before God. He knew what to do, what was acceptable and unacceptable to 'bring' to God as an offering; he just chose to do what he wanted, and expected it to be accepted based upon the self-effort itself he put into it, it appears.

He was "wroth", "very wroth" and his "countenance fell" because he was evil and resented that God would not 'honor' and 'accept' (have respect for) what he brought. He was not ignorant of what was required - just proud, independent and self-absorbed. He did not want to honor God, he wanted God to honor him. 


Genesis 4 
1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

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« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2009, 12:30:59 PM »

 
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AbsolutelyNumb
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« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2009, 06:20:13 PM »

Romans 9:15-16 says, "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

Romans 9:13 adds, "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

There is a bunch of scripture clearly stipulating that God chose a people for himself before the foundation of the world. We don't know who they are, and certainly there is nothing in the Bible that reveals His processes for choosing those He chose. Ephesians 1:4-5 says, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

Isaiah 55:8-9, harmonizes even further, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

And if the foregoing isn't enough: Romans 9:20-21, "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it , Why hast thou made me thusHath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

Seems to sum it up pretty well, wouldn't you say?
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« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2009, 06:20:13 PM »

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Wycliffes_Shillelagh
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« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2009, 06:32:34 PM »

Seems to sum it up pretty well, wouldn't you say?
Not really.  Didn't God tell Cain that it was because he didn't do well?
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« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2009, 08:37:50 PM »

Why did God choose Abel's sacrifice over Cain's?  They both gave equally and in obedience.  One theory I heard was that, while Abel gave of his first born lambs, in one complete offering, Cain gave a portion over time,  maybe indicating a weaker faith than Abel's.  Thoughts?

love,

Sopranette

God tends to move in surprising ways.  While there are many sensible possabilities covered so far, it is extrodinairly unlikely, but not impossible it was to create the worlds oldest joke:

Q: Why did Cain kill his brother?

A: Because he was Abel.

Sorry, just had to.  Please return to your reasonable discussions unabated.
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« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2009, 08:40:01 PM »

Seems to sum it up pretty well, wouldn't you say?
Not really.  Didn't God tell Cain that it was because he didn't do well?

Ezekiel 36:22-32 says this: "Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.  And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. Not for your sakes do I this , saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel."

No where in these citations can there be found any intimation of man's contributions to the LORD's salvation plan. Paul didn't do "well" until the LORD saved him, and clearly he detested the whole idea and ideology of Christendom. Yet, the LORD made him His own, not the other way around. There is nothing Cain can do to please the LORD, in and of himself and under his own steam. The Holy Spirit has to be a part of this, or there is no salvation or regeneration and, consequently, there is nothing that Cain, Paul or anyone of us can do to please the LORD.
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Wycliffes_Shillelagh
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« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2009, 06:54:40 PM »

Seems to sum it up pretty well, wouldn't you say?
Not really.  Didn't God tell Cain that it was because he didn't do well?

Ezekiel 36:22-32 says this: "Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.  And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. Not for your sakes do I this , saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel."

No where in these citations can there be found any intimation of man's contributions to the LORD's salvation plan. Paul didn't do "well" until the LORD saved him, and clearly he detested the whole idea and ideology of Christendom. Yet, the LORD made him His own, not the other way around. There is nothing Cain can do to please the LORD, in and of himself and under his own steam. The Holy Spirit has to be a part of this, or there is no salvation or regeneration and, consequently, there is nothing that Cain, Paul or anyone of us can do to please the LORD.
That's all very nice, but that's Ezekiel (uh...and your own interpretation) It's not exactly part of the context.

In Genesis, God says to Cain:

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.
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« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2009, 06:54:40 PM »

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« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2009, 07:31:19 PM »

Romans 9:15-16 says, "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

Romans 9:13 adds, "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

There is a bunch of scripture clearly stipulating that God chose a people for himself before the foundation of the world. We don't know who they are, and certainly there is nothing in the Bible that reveals His processes for choosing those He chose. Ephesians 1:4-5 says, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

Isaiah 55:8-9, harmonizes even further, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

And if the foregoing isn't enough: Romans 9:20-21, "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it , Why hast thou made me thusHath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

Seems to sum it up pretty well, wouldn't you say?

Genesis 4  
1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?
and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Seems clear to me that God placed it back squarely on Cain, not on some imagined unknown process for choosing those He chose.
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« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2009, 07:31:37 PM »

W_S, what is the "do well" you think God wanted from Cain?
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« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2009, 08:19:43 PM »

W_S, what is the "do well" you think God wanted from Cain?
In a word, obedience.
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« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2009, 08:19:43 PM »

 
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« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2009, 09:09:20 PM »

How was Cain not obedient to God?
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« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2009, 09:09:20 PM »

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« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2009, 09:48:13 PM »

W_S, what is the "do well" you think God wanted from Cain?
In a word, obedience.


Blood
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« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2009, 10:59:50 PM »

"and he shall kill the lamb of the guilt offering. And the priest shall take some of the blood of the guilt offering and put it on the lobe of the right ear of him who is to be cleansed, and on the thumb of his right hand and on the big toe of his right foot. -Lev.14:25

"I said to him."Sir, you know." And he said to me, "these are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.  -Rev.7:14

"And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.  -Rev.12:11

"but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.
He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for your sake, who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.


Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
for "All flesh is like grass and its glory like the flower of grass, the grass withers, and the flower falls, "but the word of the Lord remains forever. "And this word is the good news that was preached to you.  -1Pet.1:19-25

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