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Author Topic: Why did God choose Abel?  (Read 9160 times)
grace
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« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2008, 09:38:01 AM »

Don't you think that When God killed the animal to dress Adam and Eve, that he explained the redemption plan?

Killing the animal...shedding his blood...covering our shame. Good picture of what Jesus did for us.

Why were they giving sacrifice to God if they were not taught to? Maybe it wasn't a law, but there parents taught them?

Who knows? I don't know, what do you think?
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« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2008, 09:38:01 AM »

 
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Jimmy
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« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2008, 09:46:25 AM »

It really isn't so much that God chose Able.  It is rather that God rejected Cain.  And Cain's rejection is clearly on Cain's own head.

Gen 4:6  Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7  "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."
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« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2008, 09:46:25 AM »

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Pokhara
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« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2008, 09:53:36 AM »

Quote from: sopranette
God didn't always require a blood sacrifice.  There are a number of times in the OT when He demanded the first fruits of harvest as a sacrifice.

love,

Sopranette

Sopranette, why have you changed your avatar?  Frowning It used to be quite nice to look at, but now it's ... well ... a dog.
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soterion
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« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2008, 09:54:35 AM »

Don't you think that When God killed the animal to dress Adam and Eve, that he explained the redemption plan?

Killing the animal...shedding his blood...covering our shame. Good picture of what Jesus did for us.

Why were they giving sacrifice to God if they were not taught to? Maybe it wasn't a law, but there parents taught them?

Who knows? I don't know, what do you think?

Whether God taught them anything about the plan of redemption is purely an assumption.  In my opinion, since God did not really spell it out to anybody else in the Old Testament, such as Abraham with the giving of the covenant or his sacrifice of Isaac, or the Israelites with the plan of the tabernacle and the sacrificial system, then He did not spell it out to Adam and Eve either.

That God taught them to make sacrifice is a given since that is what they were doing.  The specifics of what they were taught is what we don't know.
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sopranette
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« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2008, 09:56:05 AM »

Quote from: sopranette
God didn't always require a blood sacrifice.  There are a number of times in the OT when He demanded the first fruits of harvest as a sacrifice.

love,

Sopranette

Sopranette, why have you changed your avatar?  Frowning It used to be quite nice to look at, but now it's ... well ... a dog.

Hee hee!  Okay, I'll look for something nicer, I promise.  My own dog has those strange yellow eyes, is why I picked it.

love,

Sopranette
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OkiMar
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« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2008, 12:12:08 PM »

Why did God choose Abel's sacrifice over Cain's?  They both gave equally and in obedience.  One theory I heard was that, while Abel gave of his first born lambs, in one complete offering, Cain gave a portion over time,  maybe indicating a weaker faith than Abel's.  Thoughts?

love,

Sopranette
Abel's offering was by faith (Heb 11:4).  Faith comes by hearing the word of God (Rom 10:17).  Thus we see that Abel's offering was done in accordance with God's word.  Although Moses did not record God's guidance in the first few chapters of Genesis, the passages from Heb and Rom assure us that God did provide such guidance.  Abel obeyed, while Cain disobeyed.
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« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2008, 12:12:08 PM »

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blituri
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« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2008, 02:49:51 PM »

I don't think that the God of Creation ever commanded sacrifices to satisfy some blood lust.
People made voluntary sacrifices under the Patriarchal period and The Book of The Covenant made conditional laws of sacrifice: IF you sacrifice then THIS is how you do it.  That began on plain earth.

The Law of Moses was added because of the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai and God abandoned them to worship the starry host (Acts 7 etal).

The Spirit of Christ spoke through the PROPHETS, therefore it is important not to go to the records of the King's Scribes to define the nature of God.  God IMPOSED animal slaughter by His permissive will and NOT because He got hungry or loved to see innocent animals "made dumb before the slaughter" by the musicians (parasites) and then have the "Heretic" lift them up to cut their thoats.

Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. Isaiah 1:10

To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord:
        I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts;
        and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. Isaiah 1:11

When ye come to appear before me,
        who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Isaiah 1:12

Bring no more vain oblations;
        incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths,
        the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with;
        it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Isaiah 1:13
 
Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel;
        Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh. Jeremiah 7:21
For I spake NOT unto your fathers,
        nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt,
        concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: Jeremiah 7:22
But this thing commanded I them, saying,
        Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people:
        and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you,
        that it may be well unto you. Jeremiah 7:23
But they HEARKENED NOT, nor inclined their ear,
        but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart,
        and went backward, and not forward. Jeremiah 7:24

Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day,
        I have even sent unto you all my servants the PROPHETS,
        daily rising up early and sending them: Jeremiah 7:25
Yet they HEARKENED NOT unto me,
        nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck:
        they did worse than their fathers. Jeremiah 7:26

The Atone-ment as defined by the word LOUO and STAUROS or the Cross and speaks of COOLING the passions or blood lust of humanity and not because God had to be appeased. The REAL sacrifice of one recognized as The Son of God brought to light the horrors of their pagan sacrificial system.

All animal sacrifices stemmed from the ritual sacrifice of the kings as the agents of the gods. The kings got wise and offered human sacrifices.  After Mount Sinai animal sacrifices were IMPOSED because the people were involved in BLOOD LUST and one could eat flesh in many places ONLY if it had been sacrificed to a god.

The theme of COME TO THE TABLE has spread to mean that the Lord's Supper is a sacrificial meal offered to God and He eats with us while we burn the fat with jubilation.   Some have observed the Lord's Supper with swines flesh still in their teeth.

Psa. 50:11 I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.
Psa. 50:12 If I were hungry, I would not tell thee:
      for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.
Psa. 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
Psa. 50:13 Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats?

NO: therefore offer the fruit of the lips and in Isaiah 573 God supplies the fruit.

Psa. 50:14 Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High:
Psa. 50:15 And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.
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Dennis
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« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2008, 02:53:16 PM »

Abel's offering was by faith (Heb 11:4).  Faith comes by hearing the word of God (Rom 10:17).  Thus we see that Abel's offering was done in accordance with God's word.  Although Moses did not record God's guidance in the first few chapters of Genesis, the passages from Heb and Rom assure us that God did provide such guidance.  Abel obeyed, while Cain disobeyed.
Even if you are correct [and I do not think you are] that Romans 10:17 means nothing can be done "by faith" unless it is specifically instructed, you must still speculate to try to explain what it was about Abel's sacrifice God accepted.  You still have a long way to go to prove that it was the difference between meat and the grain.

Anyway, I think it is interesting that the text says Abel's sacrifice was "accepted" and Cains was not.  God doesn't really mention sin until He sees Cain is upset and tells Cain to be careful because, if he does not do well, "sin is crouching at the door."  It appears the sin God was addressing was Cain's jealous reaction more than it was how Cain performed the sacrifice.
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p.progress
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« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2008, 04:09:18 PM »

Why did God choose Abel's sacrifice over Cain's?  They both gave equally and in obedience.  One theory I heard was that, while Abel gave of his first born lambs, in one complete offering, Cain gave a portion over time,  maybe indicating a weaker faith than Abel's.  Thoughts?

love,

Sopranette




"They both gave equally and in obedience." 

No on both accounts.

Equally? No. One gave an animal sacrifice - a blood sacrifice - a blood sacrifice from a clean animal, a lamb. As was obviously what had been communicated to them by the Lord to offer to him - though we have no record of that particular exchange.

In obedience? No. If I instruct my two sons to come to me at 6am and bring with them to me their sharpest knife, their fire, some wood, a unblemished lamb to make sacrifice; and only one does this, but the other one instead brings me their rake, hoe, shovel and garden gloves: Then I am not going to commend him for his showing up on time and say he has obeyed me, when he did not do what I instructed him to do. I will not respect his efforts to bring all these things, when he was commanded to bring other things for the occasion I had preplanned on the morning. He did not DO what was right. The reason he did not Do what was right, is because his heart is not right.

Cain knew what to do, but it was not important to him; he wanted to do what he wanted to do - he wanted to offer to God what he wanted to offer - NOT OFFER what God had instructed to bring to him as an offering...as a sacrifice.

The fact that we are not provided the details of the conversation where the LORD God laid all this out before Adam and his sons, does not mean that this conversation did not take place. If anyone cannot understand that such a conversation took place, then they have not learned to examine the texts ALL of them, and have yet to learn HOW TO make a diligent search of the scriptures. Once you have, then you will easily begin to see and understand how necessary it is also to take all the available texts on a subject - such as the issue or subject of sacrificing - and then  harmonize what is revealed ALL TOGETHER.

When you do this regarding the issue at hand...the questions posed and the issues sourrounding this text in Genesis 4, you will not be subject to being misinformed or mislead or found guilty of misconstruing and misrepresenting the facts within a passage or a section or on a subject of scripture.


Read...it says that if he DID right would he not be accepted. Cain DID WRONG, so HE was not accepted. God tried to be kind and gentle in corrections towards Cain. But Cain showed he did not love or care to honor God; and on top of all this, he goes and murders Abel for his goodness. In mudreing Abel, Cain sought to retaliate towards God for his own lack of acceptance. Cain wanted God to accept him as he was and regardless of the fact that he did as he pleased. And frankly, nothing has changed in that regard from that day to this present hour.   

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« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2008, 04:09:18 PM »

 
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p.progress
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« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2008, 04:31:55 PM »

There is no indication until the Law of Moses that sin offerings were required.  Whole burnt offerings, yes, but not sin offerings.

The only thing we can say for certain about Abel and Cain is that Abel's heart was right before God and Cain's was not.  It was a heart issue more than anything else.  It may be that God required Cain to offer from the ground, but his evil heart led him to offer it in some unacceptable manner, as has already been suggested.

That's exactly what I was thinking as I read over the posts.  God knew their hearts.


No indication? Wrong.

Whether sin or whole burnt offerings, the fact is that the narrative accounts found in the book of Genesis DO indicate that animal sacrifice was practiced and that would INDICATE that they were instructed what and how to sacrifice to God.

The issue of FAITH, what it is and how it is proven to have been properly exercised by the man in the Word of God, and rewarded by God, is something that requires understanding regarding the will of God on such matters as the definition of faith. Abel, Noah and others could not please God apart from their faith; and their faith was born when they HEARD the WORD of God. They mixed what they heard from God's lips, the faith that they placed in the credibility and certainty of God's Words, and what God promised those that obeyed them (and those that rejected them).







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« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2008, 04:31:55 PM »

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soterion
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« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2008, 08:19:03 PM »

There is no indication until the Law of Moses that sin offerings were required.  Whole burnt offerings, yes, but not sin offerings.

The only thing we can say for certain about Abel and Cain is that Abel's heart was right before God and Cain's was not.  It was a heart issue more than anything else.  It may be that God required Cain to offer from the ground, but his evil heart led him to offer it in some unacceptable manner, as has already been suggested.

That's exactly what I was thinking as I read over the posts.  God knew their hearts.


No indication? Wrong.

Whether sin or whole burnt offerings, the fact is that the narrative accounts found in the book of Genesis DO indicate that animal sacrifice was practiced and that would INDICATE that they were instructed what and how to sacrifice to God.

The issue of FAITH, what it is and how it is proven to have been properly exercised by the man in the Word of God, and rewarded by God, is something that requires understanding regarding the will of God on such matters as the definition of faith. Abel, Noah and others could not please God apart from their faith; and their faith was born when they HEARD the WORD of God. They mixed what they heard from God's lips, the faith that they placed in the credibility and certainty of God's Words, and what God promised those that obeyed them (and those that rejected them).









Like I said, there is no indication that sin offerings were required prior to the Law of Moses.  You are trying to lump sin offerings and whole burnt offerings together and that will not work.  They are two completely separate ceremonies with two different methods and two different purposes.
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« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2008, 08:52:51 PM »

Immediately after man sinned in the garden, God promised the seed of the woman (Christ), who would crush satan.
And he clothed Adam & Eve (shed animal blood) in skins.

What does this mean to you?
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GTM
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« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2008, 11:28:40 PM »

Jimmy said:

  It really isn't so much that God chose Able.  It is rather that God rejected Cain.  And Cain's rejection is clearly on Cain's own head.

Election is  being chosen


GTM
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« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2008, 11:28:40 PM »

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sopranette
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« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2008, 05:08:45 AM »

Immediately after man sinned in the garden, God promised the seed of the woman (Christ), who would crush satan.
And he clothed Adam & Eve (shed animal blood) in skins.

What does this mean to you?
It's probably symbolic of Christ shedding His blood for us.  Still, I don't think Cain's sacrifice was rejected because it wasn't a blood sacrifice.  Like I said before, there are many examples in the OT where God demanded a sacrifice of the first fruits of the harvest.

love,

Sopranette
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Jimmy
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« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2008, 07:30:44 AM »

Jimmy said:

  It really isn't so much that God chose Able.  It is rather that God rejected Cain.  And Cain's rejection is clearly on Cain's own head.

Election is  being chosen


GTM

So where in that passage do you see anything about election?  God clearly laid the problem on Cain.
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