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Author Topic: Why Did People Who Kept the Law not Recognize Jesus?  (Read 2349 times)
jiggyfly
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« Reply #120 on: November 10, 2009, 12:26:07 PM »
Quote from: gospel on November 10, 2009, 11:47:04 AM
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Ok...in thats case its not that they didn't no God. Its that they didn't believe that jesus was the son of God or the son of man, plus they where in the process of losing there position (priesthood).

Not recognizing Jesus and not knowing God is one and the same.

This is part of the meaning of the scripture you cited in John 8:42

John 8:42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.


When you love God you recognize those whom God has sent. This would be especially true for Jesus who Himself is God the Son or God in the form of human flesh  

John 8:43 further illustrates the point I consistently try to make in this forum which is regarding the importance of hearing. Jesus was puzzled of how people who studied the scriptures so intently and knew the Law inside out from top to bottom  the Pharisees and the Teachers of the Law couldn't understand what He was saying....more to the point, they couldn't understand WHAT GOD WAS SAYING

John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Allow me to paraphrase, " how is it you that are experts in Law, who spend all your time studying and TEACHING OTHERS the Law DO NOT understand ME?


What I love about this passage is Jesus answers his own question, He knows why, its because you CANNOT HEAR my Word. Notice its not because they do not read the Word or know the Word. The most important end all to this whole thing is HEARING THE WORD, HEARING GOD.....even today, right now GOD IS SPEAKING. He is the still small voice within, gently speaking to us, trying to guide, teach and lead us into ALL TRUTH  

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Notice that the devil is the father of lies....not God! I point that out because "some" people have a tendency of laying everything at God's feet such as death, sickness, pain, suffering etc etc.
They do this because of the Truth that God is the Creator of all things and Satan cannot create anything. However even though God is the Creator of All Things this is wrong teaching making God the author of confusion and of things that are not in His character.

People that believe otherwise say religious sounding things like "maybe God gave you this sickness to teach you a lesson, maybe God wanted you to lose your job and your house so you could learn a lesson"
WRONG!!!

True the devil cannot create but he is creative in that he takes a Truth, something that is not in his character and he is uncomfortable with and twists or perverts it into something in his character which he is comfortable with.

So in other words.... a lie is not a created thing its a perverted thing. Satan does that with everything he gets his hands on....including RELIGION. Such is the case with the "ultra religious" Teachers and Pharisees as Jesus so aptly pointed out.
  
The result is as Jesus stated in verse 45
And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Quote

John 8:47He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
[/i]
This verse also went over there heads....

Great point further illustrating my point that HEARING GOD IS THE END ALL

Quote
8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
They had a lot knowledge when it came to the law, but the evil in them cause then to lose there spiritual sight, and how can you walk with God and not be in spirit.

Yep....but from my perspective the bigger picture is that even with their vast knowledge and expertise of the Law and despite all their religiosity. They
DID NOT RECOGNIZE GOD  

For in this passage Jesus was saying I AM THAT I AM,

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

 He was telling them He is God in the flesh, He was making Himself one with God and for that they wanted to kill Him.....and this is the ironic twist of the whole thing....
....They wanted to kill Jesus in the Name of God truly believing they were doing God a favor, in the name of religion protecting God's honor from this man Jesus...WOW!!  

Not hearing God leads to not RECOGNIZING GOD when He is present, when He is moving and when he is speaking




Good post Gospel, seems that many here limit God to speaking only through the scriptures yet the scriptures make no such claim for themselves but encourage us all to be listening and led by HolySpirit. The scriptures state "listen to what the spirit saith" not listen to what the Spirit said.
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« Reply #120 on: November 10, 2009, 12:26:07 PM »
 
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Wycliffes_Shillelagh
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« Reply #121 on: November 10, 2009, 01:04:59 PM »
Nobody actually kept the law.  That seems like a fundamental flaw in the question to me.
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« Reply #121 on: November 10, 2009, 01:04:59 PM »
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gospel
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« Reply #122 on: November 10, 2009, 01:12:30 PM »
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on November 10, 2009, 01:04:59 PM
Nobody actually kept the law.  That seems like a fundamental flaw in the question to me.

You're reading the letter of the question not the spirit of it. Moreover you're reading from a 21st Century Born Again Believer perspective in that we know that no one could literally "keep" the Law



But

They didn't!

Besides that I could argue the point in that .....by the Law if you are fulfilling the requirements, all of the sacrifices, so forth and so on...technically, by the Law you were covered and therefore keeping it

Nevertheless

In the context of their day and time they believed they were keeping the Law.
But for your sake ...instead of Kept the Law, I'll accept your correction and change it to "Those who Observe the Law"
 Smile



 
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gospel
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« Reply #123 on: November 10, 2009, 01:26:33 PM »
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Good post Gospel, seems that many here limit God to speaking only through the scriptures yet the scriptures make no such claim for themselves but enciourage us all to be listening and led by HolySpirit. The scriptures state "listen to what the spirit saith" not listen to what the Spirit said.


Great point!

Manna to you my brother
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Wycliffes_Shillelagh
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« Reply #124 on: November 10, 2009, 02:38:05 PM »
Quote from: gospel on November 10, 2009, 01:12:30 PM
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on November 10, 2009, 01:04:59 PM
Nobody actually kept the law.  That seems like a fundamental flaw in the question to me.

You're reading the letter of the question not the spirit of it. Moreover you're reading from a 21st Century Born Again Believer perspective in that we know that no one could literally "keep" the Law
And the question wasn't being asked from a 21st century born-again believer perspective?  ::scratchinghead::

Quote
But

They didn't!

Besides that I could argue the point in that .....by the Law if you are fulfilling the requirements, all of the sacrifices, so forth and so on...technically, by the Law you were covered and therefore keeping it
Why put on a Pharisees worldview when Jesus clearly declares their law-keeping to be deficient?

"You tithe from your herb garden, but forget the more important matters of the law: judgment, justice, mercy" (sic)

and their understanding of the law deficient as well:

"You're blind guides.  You have the keys but don't go in, and don't allow others to enter, either!" (sic)

Jarrod
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« Reply #125 on: November 10, 2009, 04:07:43 PM »
Quote from: Bonnie
gospel, most of what you say is true but what exactly you are driving at puzzles me.  We're aware that we can know God through His creations, the earth, the animals, etc.  Christians can but some don't even believe so they don't see God in anything.
It's true that as His sheep we know His voice but when we have several people claiming to hear different things about the same thing then we know that some of them are not His sheep by that same token.
So how does it get settled?

Great question, Bonnie. This is exactly where I think Jesus' actual teachings fit perfectly in this puzzle.

Christ said it in so many ways--that is, IF we love him, we will obey his teachings. And that is what separates the sheep from the goats.

Now again, ALL glory belongs to God, even for what is accomplished through his servants, his friends.

But the first step is whether or not we will put the teachings of His son into practice, or just continue down the road of good intentions and never-ending theological proclamations that never seem to get around to just simply FOLLOWING JESUS. (Not directed at you Bonnie).

Jesus' teachings really are the simple "cornerstone" or measuring stick that determines if we are of his flock or not. And despite all of our concerns for becoming proud about obeying Jesus, we should put first things first---

1)-Follow Him

and 2) pray that God keeps you a humble and loving servant.

Part 2 requires constant vigilance, but that doesn't mean that we should shirk or "shrink" from our responsibilty to remind others "to obey whatsoever he commanded us to DO".  (Matthew 28---often forgotten part of the "great commission").
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« Reply #125 on: November 10, 2009, 04:07:43 PM »
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gospel
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« Reply #126 on: November 10, 2009, 04:09:08 PM »
Quote
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Today at 01:04:59 PM
Nobody actually kept the law.  That seems like a fundamental flaw in the question to me.

You're reading the letter of the question not the spirit of it. Moreover you're reading from a 21st Century Born Again Believer perspective in that we know that no one could literally "keep" the Law
And the question wasn't being asked from a 21st century born-again believer perspective?  ::scratchinghead::

I don't think so....because regardless of what you and I can clearly see in hindsight about their deficiencies in keeping the Law, it still remains that in the context of the times, they were still the Leaders and Teachers of the Law and they were still the Authority in interpreting and enforcing the Law.
For 400 years there were no Prophets to challenge the religious leadership until John the Baptist began his ministry announcing the arrival of Jesus

So you're still avoiding the context of my question exerting more energy looking for flaws in it as if it is without merit when it is obviously clear


Restated ......These people were EXPERTS, those who were religiously METICULOUS about the LETTER OF THE LAW yet they couldn't see who JESUS was when He was RIGHT IN THEIR FACE nor could they HEAR HIS WORDS as the very WORD OF GOD


The question could also be put this way
.... what is it about being a RELIGIOUS OBSERVER of the Law that would prevent one from recognizing or hearing God?

Fast forward to today....are there such people today?

Are there people who are devoutly religious, extremely knowledgeable and studied in the Word who neither acknowledge His presence nor His voice and do not recognize Him except in the pages of the bible?  

To which I ask, if there are such people do they not understand what they are reading?

Did the Pharisees and the Teachers of the Law understand what they were reading?
If they did, how is it all but a few of them DID NOT recognize Jesus?

Quote
Why put on a Pharisees worldview when Jesus clearly declares their law-keeping to be deficient?


To which I would ask this....was anyone's Law keeping sufficient?

Since you seem to want to quibble and nibble at the spirit of the question let me take it one step further

What is it about being astute in the Letter of the Law that would make one deficient rather than sufficient...shouldn't diligence in the study of scripture produce a heart and eyes that recognize Jesus and ears that hear the Voice of God?

Kind sir I am sure this is a fair question and one that merits reflection.

If you do not ....so be it Tipping hat
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Bonnie
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« Reply #127 on: November 10, 2009, 05:02:26 PM »
Quote from: gospel on November 09, 2009, 04:57:26 PM
Quote
This love and the renewing of the spirit work together to enable us to live lives pleasing to God as the Holy Spirit leads and guides us into all truth.


 Amen!

I agree and I must say

It is very pleasing to know and read in your response that you believe it is He.... God, the Holy Spirit who leads and guides the believer.

For there are some, well....at least one poster in this forum who believes the Holy Spirit was given to only lead and guide the 12 apostles  Doh!

To which I say, if being an expert in reading the Word leads one to believe something such as that, one really needs to put down the Bible and ask God to speak to ones self

Thanks for all your responses  Tipping hat


I'm glad we finally agree on something.
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« Reply #128 on: November 10, 2009, 05:04:53 PM »
Quote from: Thankfulldad on November 09, 2009, 09:07:02 PM
Quote from: Bonnie on November 09, 2009, 04:40:33 PM
It all really boils down to love. When a person is born again they are born of love.  God puts that love there that surpasses anything mankind has known up to that point.  Without this love there is no way of pleasing God for out of it comes forth our thoughts, feelings and actions.

I don't think knowledge and wisdom stands in our way for God tells us to get both and with all of our getting to get understanding.  Of course the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God.  It's not that kind of wisdom he wants us to have.

This love and the renewing of the spirit work together to enable us to live lives pleasing to God as the Holy Spirit leads and guides us into all truth.

Bonnie...excellent!

Love is the command...and His is amazing.  It does no harm...

Sin destroy's and harms...love does not Smile

Yes, the greatest command!
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« Reply #128 on: November 10, 2009, 05:04:53 PM »
 
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Bonnie
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« Reply #129 on: November 10, 2009, 05:08:39 PM »
Quote from: idiglove on November 10, 2009, 04:07:43 PM
Quote from: Bonnie
gospel, most of what you say is true but what exactly you are driving at puzzles me.  We're aware that we can know God through His creations, the earth, the animals, etc.  Christians can but some don't even believe so they don't see God in anything.
It's true that as His sheep we know His voice but when we have several people claiming to hear different things about the same thing then we know that some of them are not His sheep by that same token.
So how does it get settled?

Great question, Bonnie. This is exactly where I think Jesus' actual teachings fit perfectly in this puzzle.

Christ said it in so many ways--that is, IF we love him, we will obey his teachings. And that is what separates the sheep from the goats.

Now again, ALL glory belongs to God, even for what is accomplished through his servants, his friends.

But the first step is whether or not we will put the teachings of His son into practice, or just continue down the road of good intentions and never-ending theological proclamations that never seem to get around to just simply FOLLOWING JESUS. (Not directed at you Bonnie).

Jesus' teachings really are the simple "cornerstone" or measuring stick that determines if we are of his flock or not. And despite all of our concerns for becoming proud about obeying Jesus, we should put first things first---

1)-Follow Him

and 2) pray that God keeps you a humble and loving servant.

Part 2 requires constant vigilance, but that doesn't mean that we should shirk or "shrink" from our responsibilty to remind others "to obey whatsoever he commanded us to DO".  (Matthew 28---often forgotten part of the "great commission").


 Amen!
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« Reply #129 on: November 10, 2009, 05:08:39 PM »
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« Reply #130 on: November 10, 2009, 05:25:24 PM »
Paul stopped living bound by the law of Moses.

Gal 4:12 Amp Brethren, I beg of you, become as I am [free from the bondage of Jewish ritualism and ordinances], for I also have become as you are [a Gentile]. You did me no wrong [in the days when I first came to you; do not do it now].


So did Peter.

Gal 2:14 Amplified
But as soon as I saw that they were not straightforward and were not living up to the truth of the Gospel, I said to Cephas (Peter) before everybody present, If you, though born a Jew, can live [as you have been living] like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how do you dare now to urge and practically force the Gentiles to [comply with the ritual of Judaism and] live like Jews?

And the church council in Jerusalem,did not want the law given to the converts,in Acts 15.
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Bonnie
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« Reply #131 on: November 10, 2009, 05:43:26 PM »
Quote from: FROGSTER on November 10, 2009, 05:25:24 PM
Paul stopped living bound by the law of Moses.

Gal 4:12 Amp Brethren, I beg of you, become as I am [free from the bondage of Jewish ritualism and ordinances], for I also have become as you are [a Gentile]. You did me no wrong [in the days when I first came to you; do not do it now].


So did Peter.

Gal 2:14 Amplified
But as soon as I saw that they were not straightforward and were not living up to the truth of the Gospel, I said to Cephas (Peter) before everybody present, If you, though born a Jew, can live [as you have been living] like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how do you dare now to urge and practically force the Gentiles to [comply with the ritual of Judaism and] live like Jews?

And the church council in Jerusalem,did not want the law given to the converts,in Acts 15.

...bondage of Jewish ritualism and ordinances, yes but where is the commands listed?

Peter is right, why go back under the law of bondage of Jewish ritualism and ordinances?
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« Reply #132 on: November 10, 2009, 05:56:05 PM »
Quote from: Bonnie on November 10, 2009, 05:43:26 PM
Quote from: FROGSTER on November 10, 2009, 05:25:24 PM
Paul stopped living bound by the law of Moses.

Gal 4:12 Amp Brethren, I beg of you, become as I am [free from the bondage of Jewish ritualism and ordinances], for I also have become as you are [a Gentile]. You did me no wrong [in the days when I first came to you; do not do it now].


So did Peter.

Gal 2:14 Amplified
But as soon as I saw that they were not straightforward and were not living up to the truth of the Gospel, I said to Cephas (Peter) before everybody present, If you, though born a Jew, can live [as you have been living] like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how do you dare now to urge and practically force the Gentiles to [comply with the ritual of Judaism and] live like Jews?

And the church council in Jerusalem,did not want the law given to the converts,in Acts 15.

...bondage of Jewish ritualism and ordinances, yes but where is the commands listed?

Peter is right, why go back under the law of bondage of Jewish ritualism and ordinances?

Hi Bonnie,nice to meet ya. Smile

Basically the law was one,and the commands were all part of the law.In Gal 5,Paul warned,that if they were circumcised,they had to keep all the laws,yes,the commands and ordinances.

Galatians 5:2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.

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« Reply #132 on: November 10, 2009, 05:56:05 PM »
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Bonnie
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« Reply #133 on: November 10, 2009, 06:08:29 PM »
Quote from: FROGSTER on November 10, 2009, 05:56:05 PM
Quote from: Bonnie on November 10, 2009, 05:43:26 PM
Quote from: FROGSTER on November 10, 2009, 05:25:24 PM
Paul stopped living bound by the law of Moses.

Gal 4:12 Amp Brethren, I beg of you, become as I am [free from the bondage of Jewish ritualism and ordinances], for I also have become as you are [a Gentile]. You did me no wrong [in the days when I first came to you; do not do it now].


So did Peter.

Gal 2:14 Amplified
But as soon as I saw that they were not straightforward and were not living up to the truth of the Gospel, I said to Cephas (Peter) before everybody present, If you, though born a Jew, can live [as you have been living] like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how do you dare now to urge and practically force the Gentiles to [comply with the ritual of Judaism and] live like Jews?

And the church council in Jerusalem,did not want the law given to the converts,in Acts 15.

...bondage of Jewish ritualism and ordinances, yes but where is the commands listed?

Peter is right, why go back under the law of bondage of Jewish ritualism and ordinances?

Hi Bonnie,nice to meet ya. Smile

Basically the law was one,and the commands were all part of the law.In Gal 5,Paul warned,that if they were circumcised,they had to keep all the laws,yes,the commands and ordinances.

Galatians 5:2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.



Hi FROGSTER, welcome to the forum.
Circumcism was a big debate with the Jews because they had always did that but the Gentiles weren't accustomed to it and had no problem staying away from that Ordinance which was done away with.
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« Reply #134 on: November 10, 2009, 06:13:12 PM »
“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?
I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.
I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
John 3:10-12

It seems Jesus was addressing the same thing I am referring to in the question that started this thread

Paraphrasing Jesus was saying

Wait a minute....you mean to tell me you're a TEACHER of my people, responsible for teaching them the true meaning and intent of my Word and you don't understand these very basic references to Redemption the Torah speaks of and points to in every book?

Put another way
"You're a Teacher of Israel yet You haven't connected any of the material shadows to the spiritual Truths they represent?"

"Nicodemus how could you not understand what I am saying?"

To Nicodemus' credit he apparently had a heart and ears which enabled him to HEAR GOD and humble himself to Jesus authority

We know that because we can see in a later chapter that Nicodemus tried to defend Jesus before his colleagues by trying to persuade some of the other teachers and Pharisees to not rush to judgment in condemning Jesus.
 
He was probably sincerely hoping that if they would just LISTEN to Jesus, they would HEAR THE WORDS OF GOD just as he himself had heard. But as we know they only mocked him challenging his knowledge of scripture We find that in John 7:50-52  [/i]

Nicodemus, who had gone to Jesus earlier and who was one of their own number, asked, "Does our law condemn anyone without first hearing him to find out what he is doing?” John 7:50,51

And of course we know Nicodemus was a disciple ( a highly placed follower )  of The Lord by reading the following verse


Nicodemus, who had first come to Him by night, also came, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds weight. John 19:39

To be sure there were other Teachers and religious leaders who believed Jesus was who He said He was but they valued their esteem among their colleagues more than they did their devotion to God. You can find that in the following verses

Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not confess their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved praise from men more than praise from God.
John 12:42,43
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