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Offline NorrinRadd

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Re: Why I'm not a Calvinist
« Reply #70 on: Wed Jan 31, 2018 - 02:09:26 »
My apologies for being absent from this thread.  Real life interferes.

I have not yet read the replies subsequent to my last post in this thread.  I'll try to check them out later.

My immediate concern is not so much to defend or advocate Arminianism, but to provide sources that present it more clearly than has been done so far (or at least prior to my last activity in this thread).  For that purpose:

Wikipedia article on Arminianism

Roger Olson on Arminian views on Original Sin and inherited guilt.  Also touches a bit on Semi-Pelagianism.

Roger Olson on R. C. Sproul, Arminianism, and Semi-Pelagianism

Roger Olson on the question Do Arminians and Calvinists Worship the Same God?.  This one could be provocative, but it is worth reading.  It highlights the (to me) somewhat uncomfortable fact that Calvinists and Arminians just plainly see things differently.  It is almost as if we are "predestined"  ::whistle::  to do so, that we are "wired" differently.  It is a difficult gap to bridge when trying to understand each other.

Related but separate, here is a chart comparing/contrasting "Extreme" and "Moderate" versions of Calvinism.  It is virtually if not actually identical to material found in Norman Geisler's Chosen but Free.  In practice, it ("Moderate") is similar to Arminianism.

This chart gives what seems to me to be a decent comparative summary of Calvinist, Lutheran, and Arminian views of soteriology.  However, since I don't know its source, I'm somewhat hesitant.  Also, I have several times been told by Lutherans that their understanding of soteriology really can't be properly placed into a form that can be easily compared or contrasted to Calvinism or Arminianism.

Despite a fair amount of searching, I was ultimately unfortunately unable to find an online copy of Dr. H. Wayne House's chart contrasting Calvinism and Arminianism (from the 1992 edition of Charts of Christian Theology and Doctrine).  It would have been useful as an illustration of an attempt to present both fairly, while really not quite presenting Arminianism as Arminians themselves would.  Arminians would barely refer to faith as their "contribution" to salvation, and would never refer to it as "the sinner's gift to God."  Classical Arminians would not likely speak of "losing" salvation by "failing to keep up their faith," but would refer to it more as an active choice to cast aside faith and salvation.
« Last Edit: Wed Jan 31, 2018 - 02:14:16 by NorrinRadd »

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Re: Why I'm not a Calvinist
« Reply #70 on: Wed Jan 31, 2018 - 02:09:26 »

Offline notreligus

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Re: Why I'm not a Calvinist
« Reply #71 on: Wed Jan 31, 2018 - 12:58:22 »
"Scholars" in my wayward tribe and Calvinists believe that it is not possible to have faith without a DIRECT OPERATION by THE Holy Spirit on OUR spirit.  However, Calvin affirmed what Churches of Christ have always taught and well documented that when God breathes (spirit) and Jesus articulates the WORD, those spoken wordS become the God-Ordained way that He communicates with anyone but the Prophets and now through His Son, Jesus of Nazareth.

No, THE holy spirit is not the BIBLE as silliness taunts.  However, God Who IS Spirit without "flesh and bones" as Jesus said of Himself, can by His Design communicate spiritual knowledge in BLACK text on BROWN paper.  Paul said that those who have not turned (converted or baptized) can neither READ the Word or HEAR the Word when the commanded pattern from the wilderness onward is to PREACH the Word by READING the Word in the once each REST day.

When the glorified Jesus exists in His Holy Spirit State He is still the ruler and only teacher over His School of the Word.  However, we mortals do not hear Him so that in His new role He made it perfectly clear:

John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of MAN ascend up where he was before?
John 6:63 It is the SPIRIT that quickeneth; the FLESH profiteth nothing:
         the WORDS that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are LIFE.

The WORD which Jesus spoke with none of His personal input is GOD existing as His Regulative Principle or Governing Principle.  With almost no exception self-authored songs and sermons DENY that what the Spirit said of them in Isaiah 8:20 it is because there is no light in them.

Calvin taught the Regulative Principle of Worship because SCRIPTURE and all founders of denominations began giving themselves NO authority and taught the CENI.

John Calvin:




An Assembly that Christ visits WILL BY HIS DIVINE WILL AND PROCLAMATION be with the twos and threes who come OUTSIDE to REST and Learn of me. 

Luke 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God,
       I will send them PROPHETS AND APOSTLES and some of them they shall slay and persecute:

Eph. 2:20 And are built upon [Edified or EDUCATED in the Ekklesia]
        the foundation of the apostles and prophets,
        Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Eph. 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,
       as it is now revealed unto his holy APOSTLES and PROPHETS by the Spirit;
2Pet. 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the WORDS
       which were spoken before by the holy PROPHETS,
       AND of the commandment of us the APOSTOLIC of the Lord and Saviour:

THAT is THE definition of Holy Scripture for the Kingdom of Christ which does NOT come with observation meaning RELIGIOUS observations replacing the Synagogue as a READING OF THE WORD ASSEMBLY with no hypocritic arts and crafts permitted by commandment for the wilderness

I know: you cannot understand a word of it.





I understand every word of it.   You are mocking the Holy Spirit.  Because of this I prefer to avoid every post you make here.  A Christian does not mock God.   

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Re: Why I'm not a Calvinist
« Reply #71 on: Wed Jan 31, 2018 - 12:58:22 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Why I'm not a Calvinist
« Reply #72 on: Wed Jan 31, 2018 - 14:02:28 »
From : http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/ephesians-28-98051/msg1055092276/#msg1055092276

Quote from: Michael2012 on Wed Jan 24, 2018 - 08:54:38
Quote
"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men,"

You asked: Who are the "all men"?

"all men" means mankind. 

"even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men"

You asked: Are they not the same "all men" that Paul spoke of in the first part of that verse?

Yes, it means mankind.


RB said...

Quote
Brother Michael you are confused. Come here and let us discuss these scriptures: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/why-i'm-not-a-calvinist/
The first all you are correct, the second all is all that Christ stood as their Representative/Surety before God's law. Christ was a figure of Adam...in what way did he fulfill that figure?

Michael, I re-read that again and I cannot tell if that was you or 4WD asking those questions and answering them. Oh well, let us take this to the thread I mention.


Rb, I'm here. Please start the discussion, if you will. Thanks.

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Re: Why I'm not a Calvinist
« Reply #72 on: Wed Jan 31, 2018 - 14:02:28 »

Online Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Why I'm not a Calvinist
« Reply #73 on: Wed Jan 31, 2018 - 14:12:16 »
Jesus the Christ is the ANTITHESIS of Adam.  Adam was made of DUST which is to repudiate the Babylonians to whom the Hebrews were abandoned..  They made their man out of dust or clay and the blood of a sacrificed god to BECOME the working slaves for the clergy.

Those of the EARTH or DUST were ABORIGINES already existing for ages but who lacked a SPIRIT capable of communicating with God.  Jesus doesn't pray for those OF THE WORLD, the Kosmos or the ECUMENICAL masses.

Jesus is the SPIRITUAL seed of DAVID but He was MADE the Son of God with A holy spirit.

1Cor. 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Cor. 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Cor. 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Cor. 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy:
       and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Cor. 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy,
       we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren,
        that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;
        neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

The Kingdom does not come with OBSERVATION meaning religious observations which you can see, feel and smell. The Kingdom is WITHIN the huan spirit and GOD does not see or hear worship IN THE FLESH.

Jesus said that He and those who become His disciples are FROM ABOVE while the dust people are from BENEITH or TARTARUS.

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Re: Why I'm not a Calvinist
« Reply #73 on: Wed Jan 31, 2018 - 14:12:16 »

Offline NorrinRadd

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Re: Why I'm not a Calvinist
« Reply #74 on: Thu Feb 01, 2018 - 02:35:31 »
Also, I should note that while my long-ago educational background in engineering kind of predisposes me to like organized, consistent "systems," including "Systematic" Theology, I have come to place more stock in Biblical scholarship and Biblical Theology (recognizing that, unfortunately, even here definitions are not always consistent).

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Re: Why I'm not a Calvinist
« Reply #74 on: Thu Feb 01, 2018 - 02:35:31 »



Offline RB

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Re: Why I'm not a Calvinist
« Reply #75 on: Sat Feb 03, 2018 - 04:08:09 »
My immediate concern is not so much to defend or advocate Arminianism, but to provide sources that present it more clearly than has been done so far (or at least prior to my last activity in this thread).  For that purpose:

Wikipedia article on Arminianism

Roger Olson on Arminian views on Original Sin and inherited guilt.  Also touches a bit on Semi-Pelagianism.

Roger Olson on R. C. Sproul, Arminianism, and Semi-Pelagianism

Roger Olson on the question Do Arminians and Calvinists Worship the Same God?.  This one could be provocative, but it is worth reading.  It highlights the (to me) somewhat uncomfortable fact that Calvinists and Arminians just plainly see things differently.  It is almost as if we are "predestined"  ::whistle::  to do so, that we are "wired" differently.  It is a difficult gap to bridge when trying to understand each other.
I have one to offer as well:
Quote
http://www.letgodbetrue.com/sermons/salvation/calvinism-arminianism/sermon.php

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Re: Why I'm not a Calvinist
« Reply #75 on: Sat Feb 03, 2018 - 04:08:09 »

Online 4WD

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Re: Why I'm not a Calvinist
« Reply #76 on: Sat Feb 03, 2018 - 07:10:48 »
I have one to offer as well:
Quote
http://www.letgodbetrue.com/sermons/salvation/calvinism-arminianism/sermon.php


The problem here is that none of the references quoted as supporting Total Depravity, i.e., Genesis 2:17; 5:3; Ephesians 2:1-3; 4:17-19; Psalms 51:5; 58:3; John 3:3; 5:40; 8:47; Romans 3:10-12; 5:12; 8:7-8; Is 26:10; 44:20; Jerimiah 13:23; Luke 16:31; I Cor 1:18; 2:14; II Corinthians 4:3-4., actually professes Total Depravity.

RB, we can deal with each one of those passages if you want, but it should be clear to any who bother to actually read and study those passages in context to see that they do not proclaim Total Depravity.  To infuse Total Depravity into any of those passages is the height of eisigesis.  Then of course the additional problem is that the other four petals of TULIP fall like meteors from the sky once Total Depravity is established to be false.

Example:

Gen 2:17  but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Nothing there at all about Total Depravity.

Gen 5:3  When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.

Again nothing there about Total Depravity.

We can keep going if you insist.


« Last Edit: Sat Feb 03, 2018 - 07:15:03 by 4WD »

Offline RB

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Re: Why I'm not a Calvinist
« Reply #77 on: Sat Feb 03, 2018 - 07:43:58 »
Gen 2:17  but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Nothing there at all about Total Depravity.

Gen 5:3  When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.


Again nothing there about Total Depravity.
They were given to show~first, What WOULD happen once they sinned against God's simple one little commandment.  Genesis 5:3 proves it! I have given the scriptural understanding of Genesis 5:3 several times, not going to do it again for you, if another person asks, I would.
Quote from: 4WD
We can keep going if you insist.
Please do.
Quote
Then of course the additional problem is that the other four petals of TULIP fall like meteors from the sky once Total Depravity is established to be false.
Well, there will be no more meteors showers from heaven until the Lord comes again!
« Last Edit: Sat Feb 03, 2018 - 07:50:12 by RB »

Online 4WD

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Re: Why I'm not a Calvinist
« Reply #78 on: Sat Feb 03, 2018 - 12:38:55 »
Well, there will be no more meteors showers from heaven until the Lord comes again!
Still haven't quite grasp the concept of metaphorical references.   ::smile::

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Re: Why I'm not a Calvinist
« Reply #78 on: Sat Feb 03, 2018 - 12:38:55 »

Online 4WD

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Re: Why I'm not a Calvinist
« Reply #79 on: Sat Feb 03, 2018 - 17:32:50 »
They were given to show~first, What WOULD happen once they sinned against God's simple one little commandment.  Genesis 5:3 proves it! I have given the scriptural understanding of Genesis 5:3 several times, not going to do it again for you, if another person asks, I would. 
Yes, I know you think that Genesis 5:3 means that Adam lost the "image of God" in which he was created.  But the verse doesn't say that.  It doesn't even suggest that.  Moreover, nowhere in Scripture is such ever stated or suggested.  Quite the opposite in fact;  Genesis 9:6 says that murder is wrong because man is in God's image.

Gen 9:6  "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.

We can ask in what way was man created in God's image.  It certainly wasn't man's physical, biological body that is being considered.  Rather it is the spirit of man, the breath of life, that God forms in each (Gen 2:7).  The image in Genesis 5:3, on the other hand, is the physical, biological body.  The flesh of Seth was in the image of Adam. The spirit of Seth was in the image of God as it is for every last human being (Zech 12:1; Eccl 12:7).

Offline RB

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Re: Why I'm not a Calvinist
« Reply #80 on: Sun Feb 04, 2018 - 05:59:29 »
Yes, I know you think that Genesis 5:3 means that Adam lost the "image of God" in which he was created. 
4WD if God told you that it was Sunday today you would tell him that, no, it's Monday, etc. It not what I think, or even what you believe, it is what saith the word of God, PERIOD? I do not "think" that Adam lost God's image in which he was created, I KNOW that he did base on God's testimony, which I truly embrace and stand upon.
Quote from: 4WD Yesterday at 12:38:55
Moreover, nowhere in Scripture is such ever stated or suggested.
That statement just proves what a mess your theology is and just how much darkness still is in your understanding. It's truly hard to think that men would even make such a confession in light of so many proofs in the scriptures, and in light of Christ needed to be born of a virgin and NOT through Adam's posterity.~ and there IS a reason why, which is hidden from your understanding. You have been listening to Joyce Myers and others like her.
Quote from: 4WD Yesterday at 12:38:55
Quite the opposite in fact;  Genesis 9:6 says that murder is wrong because man is in God's image
Murder is indeed wicked, because man was created in God's image, but that does NOT mean that it was NOT robbed from Adam by the devil himself.
Quote from: 4WD Yesterday at 12:38:55
We can ask in what way was man created in God's image.
Good question and we shall let God give the answer, shall we?
Quote from: 4WD Yesterday at 12:38:55
It certainly wasn't man's physical, biological body that is being considered.
So far, we agree with you, for the scriptures will support that simple conclusion..... and simple it is.
Quote from: 4WD Yesterday at 12:38:55
Rather it is the spirit of man, the breath of life, that God forms in each (Gen 2:7).
You are now wrong, that's is incorrect. We shall quickly come back to this.
Quote from: Yesterday at 12:38:55
The image in Genesis 5:3, on the other hand, is the physical, biological body.  The flesh of Seth was in the image of Adam.
In saying that Adam begat a son after his own image, he refers in part to the first origin of our nature: at the same time its corruption and pollution is to be noticed, which having been contracted by Adam through the fall, has flowed down to all his posterity. If he had remained upright, he would have transmitted to all his children what he had received: but now we read that Seth, as well as the rest, was defiled; because Adams who had fallen from his original state, could beget none but such as were like himself. These words would truly have very little importance IF we limit them to just the outward flesh of Seth as you have done. Besides all that follows Genesis five will support what image Moses is speaking about. Genesis six is coming right after Genesis five and it does not look very good, now does it?

The image Adam lost is clearly seen in the image we all receive through the new birth, or when we are born again. 
Quote from: Paul
Colssians 1:15~"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Jesus Christ was the express image of the invisible God in holiness, righteousness, knowledge, wisdom and understanding~so here image has not one thing to do with the spirit of man, just as it did not with Jesus and God. There's more....
Quote from: Paul
Colossians 3:10~And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Hold on, there is more:
Quote from: Paul
Ephesians 4:22-24~That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;........

(THIS IS the image that Adam gave to Seth!)

......And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."
After God, meaning after HIS IMAGE. The devil stole that image from our first parent, but it is ALL renewed in our new birth after the image of Jesus Christ. Adam lost his righteousness, knowledge, understanding, and wisdom, ALL is given to the seed/body of Jesus Christ based on his PERFECT IMAGE OF GOD! Sir, you are confused, blinded and in error.

Online 4WD

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Re: Why I'm not a Calvinist
« Reply #81 on: Sun Feb 04, 2018 - 07:04:04 »
I do not "think" that Adam lost God's image in which he was created, I KNOW that he did base on God's testimony, which I truly embrace and stand upon.
Then by all means provide that testimony.  The truth is you can't do that because it is simply not there.
Quote from: RB
That statement just proves what a mess your theology is and just how much darkness still is in your understanding. It's truly hard to think that men would even make such a confession in light of so many proofs in the scriptures, and in light of Christ needed to be born of a virgin and NOT through Adam's posterity.~ and there IS a reason why, which is hidden from your understanding.
You have got to be kidding me.  Was Mary, the mother of Jesus, NOT Adam's posterity?  Of course she was. Talk about much darkness of understanding. Christ needed to be born of a virgin, not because of anything to do with Adam, but because of everything to do with God, not Joseph, as the Father of Christ.
Quote from: RB
Murder is indeed wicked, because man was created in God's image, but that does NOT mean that it was NOT robbed from Adam by the devil himself.
Of course it does.  The devil has no power to rob mankind his spirit, the image of God.  Genesis 9:6 is not about Adam, it is about any man, every man, mankind.
Quote from: RB
In saying that Adam begat a son after his own image, he refers in part to the first origin of our nature: at the same time its corruption and pollution is to be noticed, which having been contracted by Adam through the fall, has flowed down to all his posterity.
RB, not your father, not your mother, not your grandparents, their grandparents, not a single one of your antecedents, including Adam and Eve, directly through your birth effects the spirit God gave you.  Jesus was emphatic about that.  Flesh begets flesh; Spirit begets spirit (John 3:6).  The spirit of man is not transmitted through the parents  --  PERIOD.  And your refusal to acknowledge that very simple statement by Jesus Christ Himself lies at the basis of so much of your confusion and error. 
Quote from: RB
Quote from: Paul
Colossians 1:15~"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation
Jesus Christ was the express image of the invisible God in holiness, righteousness, knowledge, wisdom and understanding~so here image has not one thing to do with the spirit of man, just as it did not with Jesus and God.
The spirit of man is the only way in which man is in the image of God.  And each and every man is in the image of God, with Jesus as the first born of every man. Colossians 1:15 does not in any way preclude man from being created in the image of God as explicitly stated in Genesis 1:27 and confirmed in Genesis 9:6, Zechariah 12:1 and Ecclesiastes 12:7).
Quote from: RB
The devil stole that image from our first parent,
Again, no such statement or even the suggestion is anywhere to be found in Scripture.
Quote from: RB
Adam lost his righteousness, knowledge, understanding, and wisdom,
If anything, Adam gained knowledge, understanding and wisdom when he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  Now it is agreed that Adam lost his righteousness, but he didn't lose yours.  RB, you cannot blame your original loss of righteousness on Adam or anyone else.  That was uniquely YOU.
Quote from: RB
The image Adam lost is clearly seen in the image we all receive through the new birth, or when we are born again.
RB, it is not Adam's lost image that is received in the new birth.  That is downright silly.  WE are reborn; and we are not reborn physically; rather we are reborn spiritually.  REBorn.  Born once spiritually when God forms our spirit in us; REborn when we believe, repent and are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.  It is WE who are born again.  It is OUR spirit that is reborn which was needed because WE were dead in OUR trespasses and sins which WE formerly walked.

And finally and again  -- the only image that Adam could transmit to Seth was Physical. Nowhere, and I mean nowhere, in the whole of the Bible is it ever stated or suggested that our spirits come from any but God Himself and it is in our spirits that we and Adam are in the image of God.

Offline RB

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Re: Why I'm not a Calvinist
« Reply #82 on: Sun Feb 04, 2018 - 08:11:43 »
RB, it is not Adam's lost image that is received in the new birth.  That is downright silly.  WE are reborn; and we are not reborn physically; rather we are reborn spiritually.  REBorn.  Born once spiritually when God forms our spirit in us; REborn when we believe, repent and are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.  It is WE who are born again.  It is OUR spirit that is reborn which was needed because WE were dead in OUR trespasses and sins which WE formerly walked.
Sir, are you awake, or half awake? You are so confused. I did not say that it is Adam's image we receive when one is born of the Spirit! The image we receive is CHRIST's image. You are not reading carefully what I said in my last post to you. SLOW DOWN and re-read it again and THEN we can talk. I said plainly:
Quote
Ephesians 4:22-24~That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;........

(THIS IS the image that Adam gave to Seth!)

......And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."
THIS is the image we receive when born again! It's God's image that Jesus Christ earned for us by his perfect obedience to God's law! Adam lost this when he sinned. You are so bent on rejecting this truth that you cannot even think straight. Ken Sublett's posts are rubbing off on you now.  Maybe you need to retire to the rocking chair.

I'll be offline for awhile~get some rest so that you can think better. When men get rattled this is the results. Their brain goes into a state of shock and confusion.   
« Last Edit: Sun Feb 04, 2018 - 12:42:58 by RB »

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Re: Why I'm not a Calvinist
« Reply #83 on: Sun Feb 04, 2018 - 14:33:43 »
Quote
Ephesians 4:22 to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires

(THIS IS the image that Adam gave to Seth!)
There is nothing there about any image that Adam gave to Seth.  You continue to posit the possibility of a flesh begetting spirit.  It simply can't be done.  There is no way for that to happen.

Here in Ephesians 4:22 the old self which was corrupt through deceitful desires is obviously the deceitful desires of the old self, not Adam.

RB, you just can't seem to admit that your old self was corrupt because of what you did, not because of what anyone else has done.  Sad, terribly sad that the ego has such a tenacious hold on you. 

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Re: Why I'm not a Calvinist
« Reply #84 on: Mon Feb 05, 2018 - 04:43:07 »
RB, you just can't seem to admit that your old self was corrupt because of what you did, not because of what anyone else has done.  Sad, terribly sad that the ego has such a tenacious hold on you.
No problem~4WD, I have been made righteous by the very same manner in which I became a sinner....through imputation! Now, it is true that as soon as I was born of my mother's womb, "I" left that womb speaking lies and at enmity against God, an atheist at heart! Just like when one is born of the Spirit of God, they begin to do righteous deeds and a believer in God. You reject the doctrine of imputation, a glorious doctrine that is clearly taught in the OT and even revealed more clearly by Paul the greatest of the apostles of Jesus Christ, who defended his gospel with more zeal and understanding then all of them, maybe, all of them put together!
Quote from: Paul
Romans 4:1-8~"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness........

(As an EVIDENCE, NOT as mean thereof~RB).......

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.......

(BY imputation~RB).....

......Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.......(for they WERE imputeth to Christ by God's free grace~RB)
It would be good that we look at Romans 4 and Galatians 3 closely to see the true gospel of Jesus Christ, where man is totally removed from glorying through the doctrine of grace as taught by Paul and the other apostles.
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 05, 2018 - 04:50:09 by RB »

Online 4WD

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Re: Why I'm not a Calvinist
« Reply #85 on: Mon Feb 05, 2018 - 06:25:11 »
No problem~4WD, I have been made righteous by the very same manner in which I became a sinner....through imputation!
No, you became a sinner because you sinned.  In Reformed theology, the imputation of sin is God ascribing to every individual human being Adam's sin.  You believe that God imputed, that is ascribed, to you the sins of another. It is simply beyond me how you, or anyone, could possibly think that God would or could be so unjust, so unfair, so dishonest as to blame your sons and daughters for the sins you committed long before they were even born.  You would tell me that God doesn't do that.  But that is precisely what imputation of sin is in Reformed Theology and in the theology you present.

As to you being made righteous, that is by imputation. And it is by God's grace that happens.  It certainly could never be argued, legitimately at least, that imputation of Adam's sin upon every human being is by God's grace.
Quote from: RB
Now, it is true that as soon as I was born of my mother's womb, "I" left that womb speaking lies and at enmity against God, an atheist at heart!
Ah Hah! Wunderkind RB, talking to the doctor and others from the moment of emergence from the birth canal.  You "impute" to yourself abilities which you simply did not have.  Nor did anyone else.  Your statement when considered rationally is seriously funny, naive, foolish, dumb, and so much more. The only thing you were "at heart" when you emerged from your mother's womb was perhaps cold and hungry.

Quote from: RB
Just like when one is born of the Spirit of God, they begin to do righteous deeds and a believer in God. You reject the doctrine of imputation,
No, RB, I do not reject the doctrine of imputation of righteousness.  It do reject the doctrine of imputation of sin. And deeds done by the righteous are no more and no less righteous than deeds done by the unrighteous.  That idea is pure foolishness.

And for what it is worth.  Deeds are never termed righteous or unrighteous.  Righteousness or unrighteousness is reserved for the one doing the deeds.
Quote from: RB
......a glorious doctrine that is clearly taught in the OT and even revealed more clearly by Paul the greatest of the apostles of Jesus Christ, who defended his gospel with more zeal and understanding then all of them, maybe, all of them put together! It would be good that we look at Romans 4 and Galatians 3 closely to see the true gospel of Jesus Christ, where man is totally removed from glorying through the doctrine of grace as taught by Paul and the other apostles.
Imputation of righteousness? --  Yes.  Imputation of the sins of another?  -- Absolutely NOT; neither in the OT nor in the NT, and certainly not in either in Romans 4 nor Galatians 3.

Offline NorrinRadd

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Re: Why I'm not a Calvinist
« Reply #86 on: Thu Feb 08, 2018 - 02:14:32 »
It would seem we are divinely predestined to have an unbreachable impasse.  The links I posted were mostly links BY Arminians, because who would better know what Arminianism actually teaches and what Arminians actually believe THAN Arminians?

In response, RB posts a link by someone outside of Arminianism presuming to characterize what Arminians believe.

If opponents of Arminianism cannot accept in good faith what Arminians claim about their own beliefs, but insist on their own descriptions and definitions, there is no hope at all for meaningful dialogue.  Indeed, there is not even a true attempt at such.

Offline RB

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Re: Why I'm not a Calvinist
« Reply #87 on: Thu Feb 08, 2018 - 04:38:32 »
Indeed, there is not even a true attempt at such.
The attempt is on your part and others in the Arminians camp.
Quote from: NorrinRadd Today at 02:14:32
RB posts a link by someone outside of Arminianism presuming to characterize what Arminians believe
Well now, listen to the snail calling the worm slimey! All of the links were by men who truly did not understand the differences between Calvinism, Arminianism and the truth, just as you do not. My link dealt with all three~ your links mainly attempted to disprove Calvinism, which they fail miserably as always.
Quote from: NorrinRadd Today at 02:14:32
The links I posted were mostly links BY Arminians, because who would better know what Arminianism actually teaches and what Arminians actually believe THAN Arminians?
My experience with men like you, is that you do not truly know what you believe, so in vain you search, hoping for others to tell you the differences!

History is on my side when it comes to men of the faith who have debated these issues since Paul and the most powerful voices and champions of the faith have come from the pure grace camp~call them Calvinist if you like, but men before Calvin defended these blessed truths. Martin Luther was just before Calvin and he defended the doctrines of grace; and others just before Luther~Augsutine more than a 1000 years before both Luther and Calvin powerfully defended the doctrines of grace~and others before Augustine back to Paul in the book of the Galatians, and Christ before them all! If you need proof I have it and can defend it against men like you, who think otherwise.

So, Mr. Goliath use your dull sword and prove that you understand BOTH your doctrine and Calvinism and THEN show where they BOTH error concerning the TRUE GRACE of God...I'm convinced you cannot, based upon all that I have read from your many "flowery" posts.
Quote from: Peter
1st Peter 5:12~"By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.
The doctrines of grace you men believe in and teach is false.
« Last Edit: Thu Feb 08, 2018 - 04:49:14 by RB »

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Re: Why I'm not a Calvinist
« Reply #88 on: Thu Feb 08, 2018 - 05:24:54 »
  The doctrines of grace you men believe in and teach is false.
And this from one who believes and teaches that God has created the majority of mankind for the single purpose of eternal damnation, casting them into the lake of fire and brimstone; and that is what is called grace.  One would be hard pressed to present a more distorted and dishonest view of God; one no better than the evil Hindu gods and goddesses.