Author Topic: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1  (Read 3303 times)

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Offline 4WD

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #35 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 07:52:34 »
Because we are saved by the New Covenant.
We are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8).

Offline 4WD

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #36 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 07:55:16 »
Quote from: Rella link=topic=108453.msg1055185212#msg105
I became a believer first, because of family instilling that into me and then when I grew up it was only then that I developed an interest in seeing what the scriptures actually said about anything.
Your family was "the preacher" (Romans 10) that you heard about God and from which you believed.
« Last Edit: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 07:58:01 by 4WD »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #37 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 08:00:45 »
We are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8)
And is that not from the New Covenant?  Of course it is. 

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #37 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 08:00:45 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #38 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 08:03:31 »
And is that not from the New Covenant?  Of course it is.
No, it is from God's word.

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #38 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 08:03:31 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline DaveW

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #39 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 08:11:10 »
No, it is from God's word.
God's word contains many covenants:

Adamic
Noahic
Abrahamic
Mosaic
Davidic
Aaronic
New

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #39 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 08:11:10 »



Offline 4WD

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #40 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 08:20:05 »
Yeah, so?

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #40 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 08:20:05 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #41 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 08:27:52 »
Yeah, so?
Scripture contains several covenants; some salvic and some not.  The Mosaic and New Covenants are both salvic. 

So just saying " it is from God's word," does not nail it down very well. 

Offline 4WD

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #42 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 08:34:08 »
So saying "we are saved by the New Covenant" does?  Must be that ole Hebrew block logic rearing its ugly head again.

Offline RB

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #43 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 08:58:44 »
God's word contains many covenants:

Adamic
Noahic
Abrahamic
Mosaic
Davidic
Aaronic
New
Greetings Dave~the truth is the covenants made with.....or, I should say...revealed to Noah, Abraham, and David, are ALL considered part of new covenant~Each time the Lord just reveals a little at a time of what the New Covenant actually consists of. There truly are only TWO Covenants~ one based upon works of obedience and the other secured by two immutable acts of God, His oath and His promises of grace to the elect Seed, Jesus Christ being the head thereof....and by his obedience, faith, and righteousness, which IS revealed in the gospel from Genesis to Revelation.

I may jump in, but I do have bigger fish to catch at the moment.
« Last Edit: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 09:01:29 by RB »

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #43 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 08:58:44 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #44 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 09:23:53 »
Quote
There truly are only TWO Covenants~ one based upon works of obedience and the other secured by two immutable acts of God,
Sorry Red but I seriously disagree with that.  The Mosaic covenant and the New Covenant are both based off of the Abrahamic covenant.  And contrary to popular protestant opinion, the Mosaic covenant was NOT based on "works of obedience."  Was obedience required?  Of course.  It is in the New Covenant as well. 

Not required for salvation (in either) but required for proper standing in the covenant and relating personally to God.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #45 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 11:46:12 »
RB, DaveW's listing of the covenants is correct.  They are all distinct covenants.  There are probably more but they are not stated as such.  And, seriously, what covenant established by God is not secured by God's immutability?  God didn't change His mind in making the Old Covenant obsolete and instituting the New Covenant.   The New Covenant was a natural subsequent to the Old Covenant and was all according to God's immutable plan.  All the other covenants were according to that same plan.

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #46 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 12:38:55 »
Fish basically said that you can't walk away, but a true believer will endure.   Jaime/4Wd said you can walk away but those saved until the end will endure.  Dueling scriptures like 1 John 2:19 vs those John mentioned. 

How the discussion got to the Slavs, and the Mosaic covenant?   ::headscratch::

Offline RB

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #47 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 13:27:37 »
RB, DaveW's listing of the covenants is correct. 
I never said there were not~only there're basically two covenants~per the New Testament which makes this very clear. HEBREWS 7-9.
Quote from: 4WD on: Today at 11:46:12
God didn't change His mind in making the Old Covenant obsolete and instituting the New Covenant.
In one true BIG biblical sense he did~yet the ten commandments which is the sum of the law ever remains a standard of righteousness for saints to live by~not in order to enter into life, but laws that should governed our life.
Quote from: Paul
2nd Corinthians 3:6-18~"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. (THE NEW TESTAMNET, or COVENANT) For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
If you like moving forward we can talk about these wonderful scriptures speaking of the ministration of righteousness~which ministration are God's children made able ministers of.
« Last Edit: Wed Jun 30, 2021 - 02:44:13 by RB »

Offline fish153

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #48 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 13:33:31 »
Texas-- 1 John 2:19 is a perfect example of a "professor of Christianity" who was never saved. John makes this quite clear: "If they were OF US they would have stayed with us". They were not SAVED people in the first place. That is WHY they CAN renounce the faith after APPARENTLY having received it. God ALLOWS them to walk away for good without using his discipline upon them-- because THEY ARE NOT HIS CHILDREN.

Offline fish153

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #49 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 13:39:46 »
johnb---

Come on my friend!! Every Bible commentator has Jude and 2 Peter 2 as directly related. Both 2 Peter 2 and Jude are BOTH speaking of FALSE TEACHERS. 2 Peter 2 starts with "there will also be false teachers among you". They BOTH mention fallen angels, not to say fallen angels are teachers, but as "examples" of those who sinned and were destroyed. You need to read your Bible. Read 2 Peter 2 and then Jude. You will see the ABSOLUTE connection between the two books.
« Last Edit: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 17:45:44 by fish153 »

Offline RB

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #50 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 13:49:01 »
Fish basically said that you can't walk away, but a true believer will endure.   
Brother, a true believer will never just walk away, but they can and often do leave the zeal of their love for Christ. Even though we KNOW that Christ alone has the words of eternal life, we still need to constantly provoke and exhorted one another to flee the lust of this world, and sad to say, none of us perfectly does this in our old man, even though the new man hates this world and the lust thereof~which man can never sin and is forever preserved by Christ's obedience~"not" by their obedience
Quote
John 6:67-69~"Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God."
Quote
Jude verse one~Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
« Last Edit: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 13:51:55 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #51 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 17:45:38 »
I never said there were not~only there're basically two covenants~per the New Testament which makes this very clear. HEBREWS 7-9.
Hebrew 7-9 is simply making the comparison between the old and the new covenants.  It says nothing one way or the other, as far as I have found, about the other covenants.  But my point again is that all covenants that God has made are sustained, amended, or ended based upon the immutability of God.  God may respond to things done here or earth, but no such response is due to God's being caught off guard and needing to change.  All such responses and changes were/are an integral part of God's plan for mankind.  God does not change.

Offline fish153

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #52 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 18:46:43 »
What I find so amazing is the belief some have that if a true believer accepts OSAS they will proceed to grow lax and sin. The opposite is actually the case. When you see just how loving God is to His children it makes you want to follow him all that much more!! Only someone who ISN'T a real believer would think that they are now FREE TO SIN because they are eternally saved.

I always have to ask myself why people WANT to believe that God will simply let you just walk away and go to hell? What God are they believing in? Allah or Jehovah?

God LOVES HIS CHILDREN DEARLY. When they are disobedient He chastises them. He's NOT going to ALLOW one of His own children to go to hell.

Listen, if you think God is like Allah, a God you must please or be thrown in Hell be my guest. I see in the Bible a completely different God. A God who SEEKS ADAM after his fall. Not a God who says to Adam "Well, you made a horrible choice, off to hell with you". I truly am amazed at how some people view God!
« Last Edit: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 18:49:51 by fish153 »

Offline RB

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #53 on: Fri Jul 02, 2021 - 04:53:11 »
What does “once saved” mean? It is used by those who think salvation is merely a choice and recitation of a prayer. Rather than believing God’s sovereign will and work in salvation, they teach the heresy of decisional regeneration~sinners in the flesh decide when God must save them, contrary to the Bible (John 1:13; 3:6-8; 5:21,25-29,39; Romans 8:7-8; 9:15-16; Gal 5:17; Ephesians 2:1-3; James 1:18). They limit salvation to the moment they decided to be saved. This includes the inventions of “going forward” and/or “inviting Jesus into my heart.” They look at this date as the “once saved” event that counts.

What does “always saved” mean? For those who pin salvation on their decision, it means salvation cannot be taken away or lost, no matter how they live. “Always saved” guarantees salvation, regardless of what happens later, whether they live a holy and righteous life or one of sin without fruit or good works. This is unscriptural and inconsistent and shows a lack of bible knowledge ! The Bible does not guarantee salvation to those living wickedly; the only assurance of salvation is by good works (Psalms 15:1-5; Matthew 7:21-23; John 8:31-32; 2nd Corinthians 5:17; Philippians 2:12-16; Titus 3:8; James 1:26-27; Ist John 2:4; 3:10).

Where did it come from? The saying did not come from the Bible. There is nothing like it in the Bible. Two situations caused the invention of this saying. First, since it was hard to believe that repeating words as a child actually brought salvation, especially when living a sinful life later, this saying was needed to comfort those who had made such a decision that they were definitely going to heaven. Second, since many others believe you can lose your salvation, like Roman Catholics and the so-called Church of Christ, this cute little jingle was invented to oppose the heresy of losing eternal life.

What is so bad about it? The trite saying, “Once saved, always saved,” has two lies as shown in the previous answers. Eternal life is not something a sinner chooses in an event of time. It is something planned, paid for, and applied by the triune God. The Bible denies that God planned, paid for, and applied anything for salvation for those who end up in hellfire. On top of reducing salvation to quoting an unscriptural mantra, these heretics promise eternal life to people that show no changed life at all. These two false promises have deceived millions into grossly misunderstanding salvation.

What effect has this heresy had? It has promoted false confidence of eternal life, leading to lascivious living; and it has discouraged the hearts of God’s elect by such an effeminate and compromising doctrine (Ezekiel 13:22). Today’s easy-believism is pathetic and profane, as any means are used to extract superficial professions of salvation, which lead to lascivious living by most of those who have been guaranteed eternal life (John 8:30-32; James 2:14; Jude 1:4). And God’s elect, who crave the powerful teaching of a sovereign God and righteous living, are left starving under milquetoast “preaching.”

Can a decision save a person? No! Decisional regeneration was invented by Charles Finney and popularized by Billy Graham, who reduced salvation to a few words repeated as a salvation mantra. This idea is not taught in the Bible. Today, they even debate whether a person must admit Jesus is lord! They take Revelation 3:20 from the church at Laodicea for fellowship and apply it to sinners for eternal life! The real issue is God’s choice to accept us in Jesus Christ (Romans 9:15-16,21-24; Galatians 4:9; Ephesians 1:3-6).

But I thought I chose to be saved? You thought wrong. The Bible never encourages you to trust a past decision you made. Even Paul’s confidence for eternal life was in fighting a good fight, finishing his course, and keeping the faith (2nd Timothy 4:7-8). He knew whom he had believed, not that he had believed, and not when he had believed (II Tim 1:12)! Faith in God is no more than devilish faith (James 2:19), but faith in your faith is more profane (Romans 9:15-16)! You are saved from condemnation by your position in Christ, to which you were chosen, and which is proven by godliness (Romans 8:1; Ephesians 1:3-6).

When and how am I saved? Men are saved in five phases. God elected some men before the world began (Ephesians 1:3-6; 2nd Timothy 1:9). Jesus died for them on the cross (Galatians 4:4-5; Ist Timothy 1:15). The Holy Spirit regenerates them in time (John 3:8; Titus 3:5). They are converted by the gospel to various degrees (Ist Corinthians 15:2; 2nd Timothy 1:10). They are finally glorified in heaven (Romans 8:29-30; Ist Peter 1:3-5). Only those predestinated end up glorified (Romans 8:29-33; Ephesains 1:3-12). Your faith, baptism, or any good works are the evidence and result of salvation, not conditions for it.

Can a child of God lose his salvation from sin and condemnation? No, a child of God can never lose heaven and end up in the lake of fire. He may lose earthly benefits of knowing and living the truth, but his name will stay in the book of life. God predestinated His elect to adoption as sons through the purchase price of Jesus Christ’s death (Galatians 4:4-6; Ephesians 1:3-6). Jesus Christ will stand before God and present every one of them to God (Hebrews 2:13). It is impossible for even one to be separated from God’s love (Romans 8:28-39). It is God’s faithfulness that keeps them, not their faithfulness. He will never repent of His gift of eternal life (Psalms 89; Romans 11:29).

Are there any elect that died in their sins No, that is impossible! The word “elect” means that God chose a person to eternal life before the world began (Romans 8:29-33; Ephesians 1:3-12; Ist Peter 1:2). God put the elect in the hand of Jesus Christ, and no man is able to pluck them out of either Christ’s hand or God’s hand (John 10:28-29). Just as surely as Adam made all men sinners, so Jesus Christ made all the elect righteous and beneficiaries of eternal life (Romans 5:14-19; Ist Corinthains 15:22). It is just as impossible for Jesus Christ to be cast into the lake of fire as it is for even one elect in Jesus Christ to go to be cast there.  (Psalms 89:19-37; Hebrews 6:13-20).

Later we shall finish~RB



 
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 02, 2021 - 06:09:35 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #54 on: Fri Jul 02, 2021 - 06:27:38 »
Can Jesus lose any He died for? Impossible they are secured by TWO IMMUTABLE acts of God, his promises, and his oath. Thereby, again No, that is entirely impossible! Jesus promised He would raise up every single person God gave Him (John 6:39). God has made all the elect accepted in Jesus Christ the Beloved (Ephesians 1:3-6). Everyone in Jesus Christ, the elect are chosen in Him, will be saved to the uttermost (Hebrews 7:25). Jesus Christ will present every single one of the elect to God (Hebrews 2:13). Since His death was so precious, God will give every other gift to the elect (Romans 8:32). If anyone for whom Jesus died could be lost, then God would have to reject His Son’s work, which cannot occur (Isaiah 53:10-12).

What is the basis of eternal security? The faithfulness of God, concerning his promises and OATH~See Psalms 89! Not to mention the power of God and the meritorious value and perpetual intercession of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:10; 8:34; Ist Corinthians 1:8-9; Hebrews 7:25)! There is no other basis for confidence in eternal life, either now or later~it certainly is not in OUR WORK and power to get us into eternal life in the world to come. The “once saved, always saved” crowd takes comfort in a mere decision for Jesus, for God and Jesus Christ have put forth the same effort for the lost in hell! Even at funerals, they assure families that their loved ones are in heaven based on an event in the past, rather than God’s grace or Christ’s work. No one in the Bible did anything even close to this error.

How can I know I am elect? Believe on Jesus Christ, repent of your sins, and live a righteous life with zeal. Peter listed eight good works, beginning with faith, which can prove election sure to your own heart and conscience (Read 2nd Peter 1:5-11). Paul declared that the Thessalonians were God’s elect by three good works (Ist Thessalonians 1:2-4). James declared that it is good works by which we can distinguish ourselves from believing devils, since faith by itself is proof of nothing (James 2:14-26). Paul told Timothy to lay hold of eternal life for assurance by righteous living and giving (Ist Timothy 6:11-12,17-19). Withour this no man has the hope of eternal life, NO MAN.

Can I have the assurance of salvation? Yes! Your assurance of eternal life depends on a couple things~your faith in the will of God and the finished work of Jesus Christ and your good works that provide the evidence you are one of His elect (Romans 10:8-17; Ist Thessalonians 1:2-4; 2nd Peter 1:5-11; Hebrews 6:9-12; James 2:14-26). If you play with sin, you grieve and quench the witness of the Holy Spirit that you are a child of God (Romans 8:13-16; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 4:30; Ist Thessalonians 5:19). John wrote to confirm possession of eternal life, and he wrote about personal righteousness and love for them that love God (Ist John 5:13).

One more and I'm finish~RB


Offline RB

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #55 on: Fri Jul 02, 2021 - 06:54:34 »
Am I saved by my works? No! Not from sin and condemnation. The Bible declares unequivocally that human works of any kind are not the means of obtaining eternal life (Romans 9:11,15-16; Ephesians 2:8-9; 2nd Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:3-7). Justification, the forgiveness of sins, and eternal life are by the obedience of one~Jesus Christ (Isaiah 53:10-12; Romans 5:19; 2nd Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 1:3). God will not share His glory with another, and salvation by works puts Him in a position of debt to sinners, which He is not at all (Romans 4:1-8; Ist Corinthians 1:29-31). Salvation is a free gift by the grace of God without works (Romans 3:24; 5:15-18; 6:23; 8:32; 11:5-6).

Can I be saved without works? Yes, but you can never rightly have assurance without good works. Conversion and fruit-bearing by God’s elect vary from none to much, from Lot to Abraham, from David to Paul. Some of God’s elect live barren lives without fruit (Luke 8:11-18; 2nd Pet 1:5-9). The repentant thief went to heaven, and there were no good works following him (Revelation 14:13) other than what Jesus did FOR HIM! Some of the elect, even ministers, will have their works burned up (Ist Corinthians 3:15), yet saved from the lake of fire. Without works, you have no evidence of eternal life, because faith always presumes works (John 8:30-32; Ist Thessalonians  1:2-4; James 2:14-16).

Can “once saved, always saved” be used correctly? Yes, if it is limited to the will or operation of God, it can be used truthfully. If “once saved” is applied to the will of God in election, the death of Christ in justification, or the cleansing of the Spirit in regeneration, these are certain events of salvation that definitely occurred at points in time and result in eternal life. If any one of these salvation events has occurred for a person, then “always saved” is entirely true for that person. In particular, we can glory in this manmade phrase by applying it to the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ (John 19:30; Hebrews 9:12; 10:10-14). Yet we much more prefer ONCE LOVED ALWAYS LOVED.

How is “once saved, always saved” inconsistent? If eternal life begins by your choice, then consistency requires you to keep that salvation by your obedience. Roman Catholics, who offer eternal life through sacraments, are consistent by teaching you can lose your salvation, if you sin later. True Arminianism, from Jacobus Arminius, also teach that you can lose eternal life by sinning after your freewill decision that got salvation started. It is Finney, Moody, Graham, and others that popularized the inconsistent combination of decisional salvation with a perpetual guarantee.

Is “perseverance of the saints” the solution? No! our Calvinist friends invented the doctrine of perseverance. Knowing that righteousness is the true evidence of eternal life, they teach fatalistically that God guarantees all the elect will live holy and righteous lives. This is not the case, or there would be no purpose for preaching or warnings against apostasy. God preserves the elect by His grace and integrity in Jesus Christ, but He does not guarantee their perseverance in holiness and righteousness (Romans 8:28-39; Ist Corinthians 10:1-11; 11:32; 2nd Timothy 2:13,16-19; Hebrews 6:17-20).

Can I fall from grace? Yes, it is possible to fall from grace, because Galatians 5:4 and Hebrews 12:15 declare it so. But you must understand the sense of what falling from grace means before you foolishly presume believers can lose eternal life and perish at the end in the lake of fire. (Nehemiah 8:8; 2nd Timothy 2:15). In Galatians 5:4, Paul warned about falling from the true doctrine and understanding of grace by mixing it with the Law of Moses. He did not teach that these believers were going to perish in the lake of fire. In Hebrews 12:15, Paul warned about failing of the true grace of God by living carnal and worldly lives (Hebrews 12:11-17).

Can the elect’s faith be overthrown? Yes, it is possible to have your faith wrecked by false teachers, persecution, or temptations. Hymenaeus and Philetus overthrew the faith of some by teaching the resurrection had already come and gone; but God still knew those who were His, which is the real issue of eternal life anyway (2nd Timothy 2:15-19). Paul warned Timothy to ministerial faithfulness, lest he cost his hearers the truth and righteous living (Ist Timothy 4:16). And he told Corinth that they were of all men most miserable, if they let false teachers steal the doctrine of the resurrection from them (Ist Corinthians 15:2,19).

Does severe chastening mean I am going perish in the lake of fire which is the second death? No, chastening means you are a son of God and He is dealing with us AS SONS in love, even when the chastening is severe enough to be compared to scourging (Hebrews 12:5-8). God’s chastening is proof positive that you will not be condemned with the world, which He does not love or chasten and whom he NEVER KNEW! (Ist Corinthians 11:32; Matthew 7:23). God loved Israel of old very much, but He punished them for their sins with the loving care of a Father (Deuteronomy 7:6-11; Ist Corinthians 10:1-11; Psalms 78:1-72; 106:43-48; 118:18; Isaiah 44:21-22; Ezekiel 16:1-63). Consider how God dealt with David (2nd Samuel 12:7-14).

This little outline is very simple and very easy to follow and all questions asked and answered with scriptures to prove God's truth on this subject to any lover of the truth. Now it's any person's turn who may disagree to prove what was said in these three posts is against the scriptures~ but make sure you bring scriptures with you to first prove what I have said is wrong and scriptures proving your position. May the Lord bless all sincere seekers of his truths. 
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 02, 2021 - 14:32:29 by RB »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #56 on: Fri Jul 02, 2021 - 08:36:21 »
Am I saved by my works?

The answer to this question depends on what you mean by works. Paul says we are not saved by works meaning that we are not saved by perfect law keeping. Salvation is on the basis of grace, forgiveness of sins, not the basis of perfect doing of what is right. ON the other hand James says we are justified by works, meaning that trusting obedience to God is necessary to salvation. Justification refers to the forgiveness of sins, so it's not perfect doing, but justification requires obedience to God. One who is saved does not live in sin, but lives in obedience to God in spite of what RB says. LIsten to this verse very carefully...

Quote
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.
(Gal 6:7-9)

Obedience to God on the basis of grace with faith is necessary to salvation. God is not mocked. How you live will determine the eternal destiny of your soul. If by faith you are obeying God and repenting of your sins you will be saved. But if you live a life of sin you will not be saved for we are justified by works.

Quote
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
(Jas 2:24)

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #57 on: Fri Jul 02, 2021 - 09:36:37 »
The point of James 2 is that a genuine faith that is more than mental assent produces obedience/works.  Paul says we are saved by Grace through faith, and not of works.  But we were created in Christ Jesus to do good works. 

No works really means acknowledgement of a fact like the mental assent the demons have. It isn't faith.  Obedience is a derivative of faith, it is not another horse before the cart.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #58 on: Fri Jul 02, 2021 - 09:51:38 »
When Paul declared that we are not saved by works, the works he was speaking of was works of Law: 

Gal_2:16  nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

There are works of obedience that do not fall under the category of works of the Law.  We know this because both Paul and Peter talked about the what happens if those works of obedience are absent:

 2Th_1:8  .....dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

1Pe_4:17  For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?


So that if failure to obey the gospel of God leads to condemnation, then the opposite, namely obeying the gospel must have the opposite effect.  So then, clearly, eternal life, which is the opposite of condemnation, must come from obedience to the gospel. It is apparent that there are things that we must do in order to be saved.   It seems prudent to me that one would seek to learn and know what is involved in obeying the gospel.
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 02, 2021 - 09:59:26 by 4WD »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #59 on: Fri Jul 02, 2021 - 10:17:08 »
The point of James 2 is that a genuine faith that is more than mental assent produces obedience/works.  Paul says we are saved by Grace through faith, and not of works.  But we were created in Christ Jesus to do good works. 

No works really means acknowledgement of a fact like the mental assent the demons have. It isn't faith.  Obedience is a derivative of faith, it is not another horse before the cart.

If faith is necessary, then obedience is necessary for it is an essential part of faith.

Offline fish153

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #60 on: Fri Jul 02, 2021 - 10:28:52 »
James is affirming Ephesians 2:8-10. "By Grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them".

We are not SAVED in any way BY WORKS. We are saved UNTO good works. James is stating that a TRUE believer WILL DO good works BECAUSE HE IS SAVED. If a "believer" does not show fruit onto good works he is most likely not a believer at all. This is the point James is making. James IN NO WAY is saying works are involved in saving us--- they are the RESULT of our salvation, and should be seen if WE ARE TRULY SAVED.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #61 on: Fri Jul 02, 2021 - 10:42:05 »
James IS saying Faith Alone does not save us. Mental ascent as the demons have is not faith. Faith involves trusting AND obedience.

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #62 on: Fri Jul 02, 2021 - 10:42:45 »
James is affirming Ephesians 2:8-10. "By Grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them".

We are not SAVED in any way BY WORKS. We are saved UNTO good works. James is stating that a TRUE believer WILL DO good works BECAUSE HE IS SAVED. If a "believer" does not show fruit onto good works he is most likely not a believer at all. This is the point James is making. James IN NO WAY is saying works are involved in saving us--- they are the RESULT of our salvation, and should be seen if WE ARE TRULY SAVED.

You're just simply wrong. James says we are justified by works. Justification is forgiveness and an essential part of salvation.

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #63 on: Fri Jul 02, 2021 - 11:10:31 »
Obedience is a product of faith, not an addition.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #64 on: Fri Jul 02, 2021 - 11:46:33 »
Absolutely. And mental ascent of the demons is not faith. Hence we are not saved by faith alone, and especially not mental ascent alone. We are saved by the works as John said, which are the result of faith. We are saved by working faith. Not faith alone or apart from works. We will not have the works without faith, and we cannot have faith without the works. It's mainly a semantics thing. We all mostly agree if we drop our denominational masquerades.

Offline fish153

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #65 on: Fri Jul 02, 2021 - 12:46:52 »
John/Jaime---

You need to read Ephesians 2:8-10 again. It CLEARLY states we are not saved by works. If you are putting trust in works in any way for salvation you are GREATLY mistaken. Good works (done through the Spirit of God) are the RESULT of salvation. Paul states this CLEARLY: "saved UNTO good works". You want to argue with Scripture John? That's your prerogative, but you are wrong.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #66 on: Fri Jul 02, 2021 - 13:09:59 »
I would suggest we figure out how to mesh that with the James verse. No one here is saying we are saved by works alone. I certainly am not. But people here believe we are saved by faith alone, and that isn’t true according to James, who was an inspired writer also. Let’s try to drop our predetermined semantic bias and understand we all are basically saying the same thing.
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 02, 2021 - 13:15:06 by Jaime »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #67 on: Fri Jul 02, 2021 - 13:32:21 »
John/Jaime---

You need to read Ephesians 2:8-10 again. It CLEARLY states we are not saved by works. If you are putting trust in works in any way for salvation you are GREATLY mistaken. Good works (done through the Spirit of God) are the RESULT of salvation. Paul states this CLEARLY: "saved UNTO good works". You want to argue with Scripture John? That's your prerogative, but you are wrong.

What does Paul mean when he states we are not saved by works and James mean when he states we are justified by works. I maintain Paul is speaking of the basis of salvation, and it is not works of law, but grace. IN other words, we are not saved by perfect doing, but through forgiveness of sins. James is affirming that same forgiveness of sins is of works, that is, is of obedient faith. No conflict here, but two different kinds of works--Perfect doing versus obedient faith.

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #68 on: Fri Jul 02, 2021 - 13:33:18 »
So, when Jesus asks one day "Why should I let you into Heaven?" You are going to answer "Lord, your death on the cross, plus MY good works are all I look to for justification".

Really? Good luck with that. Eph 2:8-10 teaches me that it is Grace through faith that SAVES me. It has NOTHING to do with works. Or, do you think that Christ's death is not sufficient? You need to add YOUR works into the equation? I would rethink that if I were you.  Once again, we are saved UNTO good works, not BY our works.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #69 on: Fri Jul 02, 2021 - 14:28:46 »
We are all saying the same thing. Pull off the denominational goggles. No one here believes they saved by good works Fish. You are shadow boxing a phantom. It only appears with shallow vision that Paul and James disagree. They do not.
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 02, 2021 - 14:35:30 by Jaime »

 

     
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