Author Topic: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1  (Read 3302 times)

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Offline planetshaker

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Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« on: Thu May 20, 2021 - 23:50:49 »
    This is just from my observation in life in general I can only speak for me. I do have solid talking points on this subject so I start off with Jehovah Witness and the new world translation.
Talking points
1. Why I believe some JW become JW.
2. Believe is changed to exercising faith in the NWT.
3. Why JW converts to biblical christianity.

Jehovah Witness organization main core teachings is primarily targets 3 main teachings.
1. Deity of Jesus
2. Watchtower being the only true church
3. Salvation is "exercising faith" pretty much another term for conditional salvation.

From the JW's I known over the years mostly back late 80's early 90's they are deeply rooted that the Trinity and eternal security is false. The literature back in those days really covered the topics way way more than now days. I've personally known a guy that been part of the church just because of the anti-osas stance JW teach. I can even remember him saying even decades later "JW is pretty much right on when it comes to getting saved but they believe in some sketchy stuff about Jesus". Another words eternal security is a false gospel that is making waves in christianity and JW are exposing it but hey they do believe in Jesus that is wacked out but hey the're right on about salvation I do give them credit.
     Lets move on to the New World Translation you can actually check it out yourself come to your own verdict. They do twist or add words to advance their theology. Check put john 3:16 and Romans 3:16 just a sample of just a couple. They edit in "exercising faith" a subtle twist to pervert a meaning. This was done with the intent to discredit salvation by faith alone or eternal security.
I just can't wrap my head around why JW's being a poster child of what a cult is, teaches salvation by faith plus work, is anti-osas, very open about it with literature and the NWT there is no way denying this fact but you have other denominations that teach against OSAS the very thing JW teach.
If you hear the testimonies from ex JW's they tell ya they thought salvation was something to work at but once they recieved the truth they understand now the it is a free gift unmerited by grace alone thru faith alone.
For those who against OSAS has to make a case for why JW got something right and make a case why the NWT twisted key words around. Exercising faith is an out right attack on the gospel message.

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #1 on: Fri May 21, 2021 - 08:51:11 »
Well, I'm not a JW, but I believe the once saved always saved idea is a false doctrine.

but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
(Heb 3:6)

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
(Heb 6:4-8)

Since therefore, brethren, we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more, as you see the day drawing near. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
(Heb 10:19-27)

Offline 4WD

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #2 on: Fri May 21, 2021 - 09:16:53 »
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since WHILE they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
(Heb 6:4-8)
See the margin in NASB.  I believe the participles, crucifying and Putting in the Greek, are temporal not causative.  That agrees with the rest of the NT which puts only the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit as unforgiveable.

For what it is worth....

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #2 on: Fri May 21, 2021 - 09:16:53 »

Offline fish153

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #3 on: Fri May 21, 2021 - 12:49:27 »
"All that the Father has given to me SHALL come to me".
"He that comes to me I shall IN NO WISE CAST OUT(for any reason)" (John 6:37)
"I give to them eternal life and they SHALL NEVER PERISH".

Sorry Mr Wayne but the Bible appears to disagree with you.

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #3 on: Fri May 21, 2021 - 12:49:27 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #4 on: Fri May 21, 2021 - 14:14:58 »
"All that the Father has given to me SHALL come to me".
"He that comes to me I shall IN NO WISE CAST OUT(for any reason)" (John 6:37)
"I give to them eternal life and they SHALL NEVER PERISH".

Sorry Mr Wayne but the Bible appears to disagree with you.

Sorry Mr. fish, but the Bible does not disagree with Johnt; there is nothing in what you posted that says that you are not free to leave.  It definitely proclaims Jesus' faithfulness but it says nothing about your faithfulness.  You do not lose free will when you are born again.

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #4 on: Fri May 21, 2021 - 14:14:58 »



Offline johntwayne

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #5 on: Fri May 21, 2021 - 14:49:50 »
"All that the Father has given to me SHALL come to me".
"He that comes to me I shall IN NO WISE CAST OUT(for any reason)" (John 6:37)
"I give to them eternal life and they SHALL NEVER PERISH".

Sorry Mr Wayne but the Bible appears to disagree with you.

This verse dosen't contradict any of the ones I cited show that we must remain faithful until death.

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #5 on: Fri May 21, 2021 - 14:49:50 »

Offline RB

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #6 on: Sat May 22, 2021 - 05:04:32 »
I read the op yesterday and because it made little sense, or, I should say that the post was not that well organized in a manner to prove a doctrine, so, I decided to passed on it.

Now that some have commented on the doctrine itself, I will stand up for the truth as I understand it.
Quote from:  johntwayne on: Yesterday at 08:51:11
Well, I'm not a JW, but I believe the once saved always saved idea is a false doctrine.
Well now Johnwayne~your gospel is not much different than their's~you both embraces works as a deciding factor in being accepted with God as far as eternal life goes. Even though I would accept men like you, 4WD as brothers and not them, for their denial of the deity of Jesus Christ, being God manifest in the flesh.
Quote from:  johntwayne on: Yesterday at 08:51:11
Well, I'm not a JW, but I believe the once saved always saved idea is a false doctrine.
I do not hold to OSAS knowing the different senses the words save/saved/salvation are used in the word of God. That being said, I do hold firmly to Once loved ALWAYS loved! No two children of God are the same in their walk with God, yet BOTH are loved to the same degree and that loved never vary either up or down, impossible! God's love toward us is based upon his love toward His Son, not in the least base upon any work that we do or not do. God views us THROUGH HIS SON based upon the redemption work he wrought for us~we are forgiven on the behalf of His Son, not because of any work performed by us at the beginning of our walk with him, or during our walk with Him, or at the end of our walk with him! To believe otherwise is to be showing one's lack of understanding in the gospel of Jesus Christ. More later on these points.
Quote
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
(Heb 6:4-8)

Since therefore, brethren, we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more, as you see the day drawing near. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. (Heb 10:19-27)
There is a thread recently done whereby these very scriptures were discussed at lenght~I'll see if I can find the thread and post so we do not have to go back over them so soon again. They are not difficult to those who have the truth. 

« Last Edit: Sat May 22, 2021 - 05:06:52 by RB »

Offline fish153

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #7 on: Sat May 22, 2021 - 10:19:58 »
johntwayne--
"We must remain faithful unto death".  I've always loved those Scriptures (I've mentioned this before) about Noah right before the deluge. Remember how God has Noah build those handles on the outside of the Ark for him and each member of his family? And God tells Noah that as long as they hold on  for dear life to those handles through the deluge they will be saved?

No. I don't remember that either. Actually God shuts the door to the Ark Himself once Noah and his family are INSIDE. Salvation isn't something WE hold onto. Salvation is based on GOD holding onto us. And the Bible teaches me that once we are one of HIS CHILDREN He will never let go of us.

Offline dan p

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #8 on: Sat Jun 26, 2021 - 17:43:38 »
And here is why I believe in  OSAS , as written in Eph 2:8 .

 The  Greek text reads , For by grace you are  HAVING  BEEN SAVED .

 Saved / Sozo is in the Greek  Perfect  Tense , PASSIVE  Voice  and in the  Indicative  Voice and a  Participle .

 The  Participle Having means you are saved .

 The  Passive  Voice says that Christ saved you .

 The  Indicative Mood means it is a FACT  that salvation happened .

The  Greek word  NOT / OV is a  Disjunctive Particle , Negative Pronoun  , meaning , your  salvation is a  DOWN RIGHT  FACT ,

And the  Greek word  YOURSELVES / HYMON  is a  Personal possessive  Pronoun , speaks of our  salvation is  for  Emphasis , so  OSAS .

dan p

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #8 on: Sat Jun 26, 2021 - 17:43:38 »

Offline fish153

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #9 on: Sat Jun 26, 2021 - 20:29:22 »
danp---

Thanks. How can any one of us be "un-born" once we've entered this world? You cannot. It is a fact that you have been born. So how can one be "un-born again"?  Once you are saved, you are saved forever.

If one is TRULY a Child of God, God will NEVER dis-own them. If we wander He WILL chasten us because He loves us, but He will NEVER allow us to be lost.

We see examples of this in Scripture. The man in Corinth who commits horrible sexual sin-- Paul delivers him to Satan "so his flesh will be destroyed, but his spirit will be saved on the day of Christ Jesus". God will deeply discipline us, but He will never lose us.

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #10 on: Sun Jun 27, 2021 - 03:40:37 »
danp---

Thanks. How can any one of us be "un-born" once we've entered this world? You cannot. It is a fact that you have been born. So how can one be "un-born again"?  Once you are saved, you are saved forever.

If one is TRULY a Child of God, God will NEVER dis-own them. If we wander He WILL chasten us because He loves us, but He will NEVER allow us to be lost.

We see examples of this in Scripture. The man in Corinth who commits horrible sexual sin-- Paul delivers him to Satan "so his flesh will be destroyed, but his spirit will be saved on the day of Christ Jesus". God will deeply discipline us, but He will never lose us.

Once we are born again we become children of God, but children can become accursed and lost.

Quote
But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you, having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children; forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
(2Pe 2:12-15)

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #11 on: Sun Jun 27, 2021 - 03:46:30 »
And here is why I believe in  OSAS , as written in Eph 2:8 .

 The  Greek text reads , For by grace you are  HAVING  BEEN SAVED .

 Saved / Sozo is in the Greek  Perfect  Tense , PASSIVE  Voice  and in the  Indicative  Voice and a  Participle .

 The  Participle Having means you are saved .

 The  Passive  Voice says that Christ saved you .

 The  Indicative Mood means it is a FACT  that salvation happened .

The  Greek word  NOT / OV is a  Disjunctive Particle , Negative Pronoun  , meaning , your  salvation is a  DOWN RIGHT  FACT ,

And the  Greek word  YOURSELVES / HYMON  is a  Personal possessive  Pronoun , speaks of our  salvation is  for  Emphasis , so  OSAS .

dan p

Some believe in vain. These are the ones who don't remain faithful and hold fast the word of God.

Quote
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
(1Co 15:1-2)

Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
(Heb 3:12-14)


Salvation has a divine part and a human part. Divinely God will hold on to the faithful. Humanly we must remain faithful to remain saved.
« Last Edit: Sun Jun 27, 2021 - 03:58:15 by johntwayne »

Offline fish153

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #12 on: Sun Jun 27, 2021 - 14:03:59 »
John--
Children can wander and become unfaithful. But the Father is forever faithful. God will not lose ONE child that has been born-again-- truly born again. Some SAY they are born again, and then later renounce the truth. But any who are TRULY regenerated and saved WILL NEVER BE LOST. John10:28,29 clearly states this.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #13 on: Sun Jun 27, 2021 - 16:38:34 »
In what other way did God take away your free-will?  If He does that to the regenerate, why didn't He do that to Adam and Eve?  If God will do that for you, then why didn't He do that for them?  Sorry, Fish, but your view is incorrect and the means your interpretation of John 10:27-29 and others that you depend upon for your interpretation are incorrect as well.  As I have indicated preciously here at the forum, passages such as the John 10 passage speaks to God's faithfulness; it does not speak to our faithfulness.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #14 on: Sun Jun 27, 2021 - 17:15:54 »
Absolutely 4WD. satan lured Adam and Eve away from God by telling them something similar. You will not surely die! Satan is giving all his might to do that to whomever he can. No man can snatch us out of God’s hand. But we can certainly be decieved into leaving or disobeying as Adam and Eve did.
« Last Edit: Sun Jun 27, 2021 - 19:03:33 by Jaime »

Offline fish153

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #15 on: Sun Jun 27, 2021 - 18:17:27 »
You are SO wrong. On earth, if our rebellious child starts to wander onto the street do we say “you’re on your own”? Of course not!! We grab the child and spank them, and tell them not to do it again! We do that because we LOVE them. They are OUR CHILD, and despite their rebelliousness we protect them. When we become Children of God we are treated FAR DIFFERENTLY than lost unbelievers.

Hebrews 12 tells us that if we are without chastisement we are not believers at all! God will not ALLOW a true child of God to perish. I am SO SURPRISED you could dishonor God so much as to say He treats us with less care than an earthly father would! How terrible to think that way! Believing God will not allow HIS own children to perish is Satanic?? Good God— what an AWFUL THING TO SAY.

Read Hebrews 12 and many other places in the Bible too. God’s true children will NEVER PERISH. God will not allow it. That is Biblical and true. Job had “a hedge about him” remember? Only when God “allowed” Satan to touch Job did he do so. We as God’s children are protected by Him. We may stumble, but we will never eternally fall (see Psalm 37). God DISCIPLINES His own children if they stray— He does not discipline unbelievers, and they are “allowed” to perish if they reject Christ to the point of no return. Jesus is called the GOOD SHEPHERD for a reason. He WILL NOT ALLOW ANY OF HIS SHEEP TO BE ETERNALLY LOST. If you don’t want to believe that, that’s up to you. But the Bible teaches it. I have been a Christian for 48 years and the Lord has never forsaken me— even during the times when HE SHOULD HAVE! I believe no one can ever take me out of His hand. He promised that— and I know it to be true. He is holding onto me— I am not strong enough to hold onto him without letting go. I trust him to keep me. And that he will do most assuredly.

Offline Johnb

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #16 on: Sun Jun 27, 2021 - 18:40:01 »
JTW. The apostle Paul agrees with you . Oh and Peter also.
« Last Edit: Sun Jun 27, 2021 - 18:43:57 by Johnb »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #17 on: Sun Jun 27, 2021 - 19:11:29 »
Fish, with the Holy Spirit we DO have the wherewithall to hold on. He is 100% faithful. He doesn’t however want robotic obedience. He wants our free will decision, everytime. We can choose to walk away from him as Adam and Eve did. Most of the Bible addresses this posible eventuality and encourages against it. He didn’t give them an impossible instruction. They listened to Satan and fell out of their perfect relation with God. Satan is like a roaring lion prowling around seeking who he might devour or decieve. No man can snatch us out of God’s hand, but we, ourseves can peel his fingers off of us and walk away from God. He will continue to pursue, but he will NOT force us back.
« Last Edit: Sun Jun 27, 2021 - 19:15:19 by Jaime »

Offline fish153

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #18 on: Sun Jun 27, 2021 - 19:28:28 »
Jaime— I’m sorry, you’re wrong. Yes— a believer DOES have free will. But it is within DIFFERENT PARAMETERS. The unbelieving world ARE NOT CHILDREN OF GOD. THEY have free will to perish if they so desire. The Believer has free will but within the parameters of being a CHILD OF GOD. God has received the TRUE BELIEVER as a child of God, and has taken the RESPONSIBILITY of that child.

That is WHY God DISCIPLINES believers, but not unbelievers. Hebrews 12 says if we are without discipline we are NOT GOD’S CHILDREN. I mentioned the man in Corinth,engaged in sexual sin. Paul delivers him to Satan so “the flesh is destroyed (physical death) but the spirit WILL BE SAVED on the day of Christ Jesus”. This man was a true believer. God would not ALLOW HIM TO PERISH ETERNALLY. So he was going to take his life so he WOULDNT PERISH. Thankfully the man repented. In 1 Corinthians 3 it speaks of some whose total works will be burned up, but they will “BE SAVED THOUGH AS BY FIRE”. Again, these are true Christians who did not serve God, or who turned away, but God will burn their works, BUT NOT THEM THEMSELVES. God will not ALLOW a SAVED PERSON TO PERISH.

This is Biblical Jaime, so you are wrong. God loves HIS children and will never allow them to perish. These are totally different parameters of free will. We have free will as believers— but we are also “hedged about” with God’s protection.

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #19 on: Sun Jun 27, 2021 - 19:35:45 »
No sorry Fish. Too much of the Bible is devoted to warning of not falling away. Falling away is NOT simply just not being actually saved. That is an inarguable and completely wrong assertion. One can’t fall from where they’ve never been. That sentence convinced me long ago. You MUST remember that Adam and Eve’s failure impinged zero on God’s faithfullness or his infinite love for them. And Satan knows where our weaknesses lie. We alone are held responsible.
« Last Edit: Sun Jun 27, 2021 - 19:47:16 by Jaime »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #20 on: Mon Jun 28, 2021 - 05:54:07 »
How can any one of us be "un-born" once we've entered this world? You cannot. It is a fact that you have been born. So how can one be "un-born again"?  Once you are saved, you are saved forever.
Fish, just as there is no correlation between dying physically and dying spiritually, there is no correlation between being born physically and being born spiritually.  There are many attempts to make the correlation but every such attempt falls flat.  You said that having been born one can't be unborn; but that isn't really true is it?  Everyone born on this earth dies eventually (except those alive at Jesus' second coming).  So the "can't be unborn" is a false assertion due to the misuse of the concept of a birth. It is true that a person cannot be "unborn" in the sense of reentering the mother's womb, but certainly the life of the one who is born ends.

Fish, there is not a passage in the Bible which makes the claim that "Once you are saved, you are saved forever".  If you think there is, post them and then let's examine them.

Offline Rella

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #21 on: Mon Jun 28, 2021 - 08:03:11 »
You are SO wrong. On earth, if our rebellious child starts to wander onto the street do we say “you’re on your own”? Of course not!! We grab the child and spank them, and tell them not to do it again! We do that because we LOVE them. They are OUR CHILD, and despite their rebelliousness we protect them. When we become Children of God we are treated FAR DIFFERENTLY than lost unbelievers.

Hebrews 12 tells us that if we are without chastisement we are not believers at all! God will not ALLOW a true child of God to perish. I am SO SURPRISED you could dishonor God so much as to say He treats us with less care than an earthly father would! How terrible to think that way! Believing God will not allow HIS own children to perish is Satanic?? Good God— what an AWFUL THING TO SAY.

Read Hebrews 12 and many other places in the Bible too. God’s true children will NEVER PERISH. God will not allow it. That is Biblical and true. Job had “a hedge about him” remember? Only when God “allowed” Satan to touch Job did he do so. We as God’s children are protected by Him. We may stumble, but we will never eternally fall (see Psalm 37). God DISCIPLINES His own children if they stray— He does not discipline unbelievers, and they are “allowed” to perish if they reject Christ to the point of no return. Jesus is called the GOOD SHEPHERD for a reason. He WILL NOT ALLOW ANY OF HIS SHEEP TO BE ETERNALLY LOST. If you don’t want to believe that, that’s up to you. But the Bible teaches it. I have been a Christian for 48 years and the Lord has never forsaken me— even during the times when HE SHOULD HAVE! I believe no one can ever take me out of His hand. He promised that— and I know it to be true. He is holding onto me— I am not strong enough to hold onto him without letting go. I trust him to keep me. And that he will do most assuredly.


But fish,

There are many people who one might challenge that are certain of their eternal "heavenly" destiny who were never saved as you or I would count them to be. Church goers as well as the man on the street.

So, if you were telling someone OSAS is your belief... what would you  say to them that would make them understand why you believe that and why you are certain you were born again?

You ask...

Quote
How can any one of us be "un-born" once we've entered this world? You cannot. It is a fact that you have been born. So how can one be "un-born again"?  Once you are saved, you are saved forever.

You are remiss in explaining this "saved" part and how that happens.

Nicodemus asked...How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born again?

He is told

 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

But there were no steps given to Nicodemus, and that is so in many, if not most, churches today.

People are told to do such and such and they will be rewarded after death with a heavenly home.

So what say you?

How is it that you know, definitively, that you were born again?

BTW,,, as to the OSAS... Man I wish I could believe that.

I knew a man who told me once that there was absolutely nothing his sons could do that would make him love them any less or not forgive them. (We were talking about OSAS) and he said he is just a mortal without the love God has for his children.

I also knew a woman who seemed to have all the love in herself for her only daughter and showered her with
what ever money could buy.  This daughter , once grown, developed her own life and the mother pulled away. Then, after a divorce... ( mom was married 3 times).. married a man that she did not approve of. And she literally disowned her own daughter.... to the point that it was a couple of decades of no communication and then  when the woman got sick the daughter came back to take care of her until she died.

But the mom was so vindictive as to disowning her own daughter that she literally spent her fortune and was fairly broke
when she died. All to keep her daughter from getting it.

So I have seen the case of parental love go south when the free will of the child drew the child into a different direction.

OSAS is a wish... but if you dont tow the line
::frown::

Offline fish153

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #22 on: Mon Jun 28, 2021 - 10:59:20 »
Johnb mentioned Peter. And Peter is one of the greatest examples of OSAS. Right before Peter denied Jesus, Jesus said "Satan has desired to sift you as wheat, but I have prayed for you that YOUR FAITH FAIL NOT". Jesus then says to Peter (BEFORE his denial) "WHEN you are restored, strengthen your brethren".

One must note that Jesus does not say "IF" YOU ARE RESTORED, BUT "WHEN" YOU ARE RESTORED. Peter then denied the Lord. In John 21 Jesus RESTORES Peter and asks him to "Feed my sheep".

Now-- we have to ask WHY Peter did not fall away, and WHY Jesus KNEW he WOULD BE RESTORED? The answer is that JESUS HAD PRAYED FOR PETER THAT HIS FAITH NOT FAIL.

Hebrews says in chapter 7:25  "Therefore He is able to SAVE COMPLETELY those who come to God through him, because HE ALWAYS LIVES TO INTERCEDE FOR THEM".

Why is OSAS true? Because Jesus is praying for every one of His children that THEIR FAITH NOT FAIL. Just as he prayed for Peter.

The Old Covenant was based on MAN'S faithfulness to God. The New Testament is based on God being true to His own promises. "There is NONE righteous. No, not one". NONE OF US CAN REMAIN FAITHFUL without the PRAYERS OF JESUS FOR US. We would ALL fall right into hell without his intercession. This is a FACT.

Jesus said "He that comes to me I will in NO WISE (for any reason) cast out"(John 6:37).  Our salvation is not based on how much we hold on to God-- but on how much He is holding onto us!  The Old Covenant was based on man's faithfulness to God. The New Covenant (because God knows we CANNOT hold on in our own righteousness) is based on GOD'S PROMISES TO KEEP US.

This does not take away from our responsibility to repent and stay holy before God. All rewards are based on what WE DO IN OUR BODIES. But SALVATION is not based on WHAT WE DO, but WHAT GOD has DONE. There is a huge difference between salvation and "rewards".

So, I repeat, a true Child of God cannot be lost. If we walk away God will chasten us, and we will eventually return. If we are not chastened we were never really Christians to begin with. Do you see a "professed" Christian walking in, and enjoying sin without it bothering him? This person was never a Christian. God CHASTENS His children. They will NEVER PERISH.
« Last Edit: Mon Jun 28, 2021 - 11:08:23 by fish153 »

Offline Johnb

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #23 on: Mon Jun 28, 2021 - 14:07:04 »
Peter told us that God did not even spare the angels that rebelled but cast them into darkness.  Then later in 2 Peter 2 he said.  20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire

Yes Peter had a moment of weakness and denied knowing the man Jesus but quickly repented when he understood what he had done.  Failing from grace is not a single sin or a thousand sins it exactly what Peter said being over come and returning to a life outside 
Of Christ.

Heb. 6. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
« Last Edit: Mon Jun 28, 2021 - 14:19:19 by Johnb »

Offline Rella

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #24 on: Mon Jun 28, 2021 - 15:14:20 »
Peter told us that God did not even spare the angels that rebelled but cast them into darkness.  Then later in 2 Peter 2 he said.  20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire

Yes Peter had a moment of weakness and denied knowing the man Jesus but quickly repented when he understood what he had done.  Failing from grace is not a single sin or a thousand sins it exactly what Peter said being over come and returning to a life outside 
Of Christ.

Heb. 6. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.



Hebrews 6 :4-6 tells us that that Peter is not necessarily back in the fold. He, himself says...For that  if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

ERGO your description that it is not a sin or a thousand sins but returning to a life away from Christ... Hebrews 6: 4-6 says differently.


So those of us who may have backslidden for a season, apparently does lose all hope ::headscratch::

 

Offline fish153

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #25 on: Mon Jun 28, 2021 - 15:34:21 »
johnb---
You need to compare Jude verse 19. Jude is very very similar to 2 Peter 2. Jude is talking about the SAME false teachers. Note what he says in verse 19: "These are people that divide you, who follow mere natural instincts, and DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT".

These people are "professors of Christianity". They ARE NOT born-again believers. And that is why God is NOT CHASTISING THEM. They know Jesus is the way to salvation but they refuse that way, and warp teachings. They appear godly on the outside but they are swines, not SHEEP.

You need to study this way more closely. God will not LOSE any of his true children. But there are many who PROFESS to be believers, and one day Jesus will say "depart from me...I NEVER KNEW YOU".  NOTE: He doesn't say "I ONCE knew you" (Jesus KNOWS true believers), no, he says "I NEVER knew you"!! They were NEVER SAVED!!!

Peter was a true believer whom Christ prayed for-- so Peter DID NOT ETERNALLY FALL-- Jesus restored him. It is very important to see this. Jesus DID NOT pray for Judas as he was the Son of Perdition, and he was eternally lost.

Offline Johnb

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #26 on: Mon Jun 28, 2021 - 18:46:28 »
This is why I usually don’t do theology threads and this will be my last post here.  Jude 19 has nothing to do with what Peter discussed.  All of Jude is about false teachers.  We’re the angels in heaven originally false teachers?  NO! Neither were the ones in Hebrews.  They had “escaped the corruption of the world…”. If they were false teachers from the beginning they had not “escaped the pollutions of the world”. If the were false teachers from the beginning how is it worse for them than never knowing Christ?? The NT continually warns against falling if it is not possible why the warning?   Heb. 6 clearly states that one can fall and be lost.  PS.  Quit putting words in my mouth I clearly sated that Peter in a moment of weakness denied he knew Jesus to save his own Hide. I never said or implied that he fell from grace.  He made a mistake and committed a sin like we all do.  One does not fall from grace every time they sin.  It is intentionally leaving stop believing and teaching things you know are false.  God is always faithful to the promises He makes men are not.  The only thing that can make you fall is you.
Rella Peter simply committed a sin like all of us do.  There is nothing in the text that implies he fell away or lost his salvation.    “Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth…”. Have a good argument

Offline Jaime

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #27 on: Mon Jun 28, 2021 - 18:49:26 »
That’s right Johnb. Walking in the light is not a sinless walk. It is a DIRECTION.
« Last Edit: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 05:41:55 by Jaime »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #28 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 06:10:44 »
That’s right Johnb. Walking in the light is not a sinless walk. It is a DIRECTION.
No - it is a quality of walk NOT HIDING our selves.  Being open to God and each other.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #29 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 06:27:50 »
I am currently reading a book on the 5 Solas from First Fruits of Zion.  Growing up in a Wesleyan environment, those points seemed rather foreign.  I have never been fully comfortable with them, just like I am uncomfortable with the Calvinist points.

The author makes a good case that the 5 solas are incompatible with Messianic theology. In one of the examples he gives of theologians trying to reconcile the words of Paul and James on justification by faith or works, he gets into Jewish soteriology under the Mosaic covenant, and how that has been misrepresented by "christian" theology.   There it is brought up the concept that I have been looking into for the past few years:  Salvation by Covenant.

If you go with that, it actually reconciles both the Wesleyan / Arminian view that salvation can be lost with the Calvinist view that it cannot.   Marriage is a covenant, the only real example we have in our culture.  It is talked about as a permanent thing and not to be broken; but scripture has many examples of covenants being broken and even allows (not mandates) for divorce in cases of sexual misconduct.  So it can be shown as permanent, but able to be broken.  But that is not without a process of doing so.  In the divorce, a paper had to be written (Deut 24) and given to the wife. It formally said the covenant was dissolved.  While God will never leave or forsake us, we can formally say to Him we dissolve our relationship with Him and leave.

Now I can hear the OSAS crowd saying that a person who does that was never really saved in the first place.  I am not willing to dismiss past following the Lord so easily. 

Offline 4WD

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #30 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 06:44:06 »
One does not enter heaven based upon how good one is; one does not enter hell based upon how bad one is.  The difference between those who obtain eternal life and those who don't is faith, the belief in God and in the gospel of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.  That faith is based solely upon hearing God's word about Christ.  It depends both upon the source of God's word and upon the hearer of God's word.  Believe and be saved; disbelieve and be lost.  The disbeliever can become a believer.  The believer can become a disbeliever. That is based solely upon the individual.  God provides, through His written word, all that is needed to become a believer.  Beyond that, He neither selects nor causes who becomes a believer; nor does He prevent a believer from becoming a disbeliever.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #31 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 07:03:08 »
One does not enter heaven based upon how good one is; one does not enter hell based upon how bad one is.  The difference between those who obtain eternal life and those who don't is faith, the belief in God and in the gospel of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.  That faith is based solely upon hearing God's word about Christ.  It depends both upon the source of God's word and upon the hearer of God's word.  Believe and be saved; disbelieve and be lost.  The disbeliever can become a believer.  The believer can become a disbeliever. That is based solely upon the individual.  God provides, through His written word, all that is needed to become a believer.  Beyond that, He neither selects nor causes who becomes a believer; nor does He prevent a believer from becoming a disbeliever.
Do not forget the topic of how covenant fits into that.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #32 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 07:05:26 »
Do not forget the topic of how covenant fits into that.
Why would I?

Offline DaveW

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #33 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 07:17:41 »
Why would I?
Because we are saved by the New Covenant. 

Offline Rella

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Re: Why I believe eternal security is biblical part 1
« Reply #34 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 07:30:12 »
One does not enter heaven based upon how good one is; one does not enter hell based upon how bad one is.  The difference between those who obtain eternal life and those who don't is faith, the belief in God and in the gospel of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.  That faith is based solely upon hearing God's word about Christ.  It depends both upon the source of God's word and upon the hearer of God's word.  Believe and be saved; disbelieve and be lost.  The disbeliever can become a believer.  The believer can become a disbeliever. That is based solely upon the individual.  God provides, through His written word, all that is needed to become a believer.  Beyond that, He neither selects nor causes who becomes a believer; nor does He prevent a believer from becoming a disbeliever.

"God provides, through His written word, all that is needed to become a believer."

Well said. I agree.

But there are those who have become believers who never ventured past Genesis 1 and 2, or the Psalms and Proverbs... or the committing of John 3:16 to memory. (Likely from a bumper sticker)

I became a believer first, because of family instilling that into me and then when I grew up it was only then that I developed an interest in seeing what the scriptures actually said about anything.

 

     
anything