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Yeah, I thought that might be the silly interpretation you would give it.

I am familiar with the scriptures you reference.  And I reject that interpretation.

And what interpretation do you believe in its place? Here we are, quote the scriptures you claim you know I am talking about, and give their proper interpretation please. Or does your rejection of the interpretation imply you simply ignore those verses? 

Just as you decry early church decisions to change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, I decry the decisions of the early church to distance themselves from normative Judaism to escape Roman persecution in the 2nd century.  They were both part of the same package, Amo.

You are comparing two very different events, at two different times, with two different sources of authentication. Revisionist historians are as revisionist historians do I suppose. Including of course, leaving out important details, which completely change the story or narrative they are trying to sell as truth.

There are no records from scripture addressing the change of the Sabbath from one day to another, because such never took place while the authors of them were alive. While our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ did address the issue of the seventh day sabbath many times, He never even suggested in any way shape or form that it would from one day to another. Testifying to the contrary, that God's law would not change before heaven and earth passed. Nor did any of the Apostles ever address any such change, holding up the commandments of God as the standard unto the last book and chapter of the New Testament. We must look to and study history alone regarding the change of the sabbath.

The division which took place between "Christianity" and "Judaism" though, is addressed in scripture itself, and not just history. Your suggestion that this division took place because of Roman persecution alone, is revisionist history at its finest. Ignoring the record within scripture itself regarding the beginnings of this division. Which division only grew over time between those Jews and Gentiles who accepted Christ Jesus our Lord as the true Prince and Messiah of the Jewish nation and biblical prophecy. It was the Jews themselves, who rejected Jesus Christ as their promised Messiah, who began the division your revisionist version of history apparently ignores.

Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. 54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Act 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. 2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him. 3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. 49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region. 50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts. 51 But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium.

Act 26:9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. 11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

You ought to face the facts concerning where the division you harp upon really began. It began with a large segment of Israel rejecting and crucifying their own predicted Messiah and Prince. It then continued in the persecution of Jew and gentile alike, who accepted our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as just exactly that, from city to city by these same Jews who rejected their own Lord and Savior. Persecuting, imprisoning, and murdering the followers of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. This rejection being maintained to this very day by many, the tides eventually turned in favor of professed "Christians" in any case, who severed the connection with Jews completely and began persecuting them. This as "Christianity" became increasingly political and therefore apostate itself.

Nevertheless, those Jews who rejected their Messiah when He came to them the first time, all ever since who did the same throughout history, and those who still do today, are not the Israel of God. The New Covenant Israel of God transcends nations, races, tribes, or what have you. It is the spiritual nation addressed by the very scriptures you reject proving this to be so. So be it.

Of course it is. (except we call Him Yeshua the Messiah)  But Not in the way you think.

Of course, it is not possible that those who still reject Yeshua the Messiah as such, are part of that kingdom. Whether Jew or Gentile, correct? My point however, is concerning Christ's kingdom, which you claim the literal Jews  are still part of. Which is simply not possible, as Christ's new covenant kingdom is not a literal one, as He Himself testified.

Joh 18:33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews? 34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me? 35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done? 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. 37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

I ask you Dave, what kind of kingdom would a kingdom that is not of this world be? Would it not be a spiritual kingdom? Yes, of course it would. Nothing proves more precisely that the literal nation of Israel today, is not the Israel of God during this New Covenant era, than the very fact that it is a literal nation of this world again.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Joh 4:19  The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Why will you reject the above words of your Lord and Savior, in declaring those of literal national Israel to be of the kingdom of God without being of the spirit or born again? Paul also declared this truth in more than one place.

Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Why will you deny the above in declaring literal national Israel of the kingdom of God?

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Why will you deny the above truth by maintaining a separation which our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ came to remove? I of course can go on with many more verses to the same effect as the above. Please do though, give the proper interpretation of the above quoted scriptures, since you reject that which I am presenting. Surely you won't  declare something being wrong, without also declaring what is right concerning the same, will you?

And the KJV  READS ,  of  whom  I am  PROTOS /  CHIEF

 NIV  READS , of whom I am the  worst /PROTOS

 ESV  reads ,of  whom Imam  FOREMOST / PROTOS .

 NLT  reads , of  whom  I am  the  WORST  OF  ALL / PROTOS

 YLT  reads ,FIRST / PROTOS , of  whom  I am

 Why  not look up what  FIRST / PROTOS  means , and  PHIL 3:6 says that Paul  was  BLAMELESS and it is the  word  of  God  that  confirms it .

 By  the  way , in  Luke 1:5 and 6 , we see that  Zacharias said of  ABIA  and  ELISABETH    were  both  righteous before  God  ,  walking  in all  the  commandments and  ordinances of the  Lord  ,  BLAMELESS .

So does  PROTOS  means  FIRST  or  means  TWO  or can  mean  TO  WALK , OR  MAYBE  MEAN  thirty ?

dan p

So, of course, you didn't even bother to look up the meaning of the word.  And for that you will continue to write gibberish whenever you use the word.  Besides looking up the definition, it might help if you looked at synonyms and antonyms for the word.

Christ's kingdom is not a literal kingdom or nation of this world at all.

But it is a real kingdom IN this world. All who are in Christ belong to that kingdom.  We are not OF the world, but we are IN the world. The kingdom of heaven is a literal kingdom.

The kingdom of heaven is a literal kingdom in the sense that it is very real.

That is what literal means!

I am sure that you do not.  And that is terribly sad. I literally observe it every time I meet and/or speak with one of His.

You do not even see what we will be when God's kingdom is come, let alone what that kingdom will look like or entail. If you wish to consider such, you may attempt to envision that which is described as best possible in the scriptures. You are of course free to believe whatever you wish. At least you are in for a big and awesome surprise when you do actually see the kingdom of God which is at present beyond our view and or comprehension, and our new glorious spiritual bodies. Unless of course you refer to spiritual character of God's own, who have the kingdom within them, and not our literal appearance now.

God's kingdom on earth now, is a spiritual one. When He returns it will be literal again. At which time alone, we will actually see and understand, as we are seen and understood.

1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.......................................
10  And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. 6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. 7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. 8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. 10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

And what interpretation do you believe in its place? Here we are, quote the scriptures you claim you know I am talking about, and give their proper interpretation please. Or does your rejection of the interpretation imply you simply ignore those verses? 

I hold to the intrepretation that Paul was a VERY observant orthodox Jew with complete Torah observance. (while fighting hard for Gentiles to not have to follow Torah)

You are comparing two very different events, at two different times, with two different sources of authentication. Revisionist historians are as revisionist historians do I suppose. Including of course, leaving out important details, which completely change the story or narrative they are trying to sell as truth.

Not really.  Both happened at the same time in the last half of the 2nd century, following the failed Bar Kochba revolt.  Rome lifted almost all of the Jews out of the province of Judea and renamed it Palestina. (after the Philistines) The Jews were scattered all thru the empire and Rome persecuted them hard and anything that even looked like Judaism suffered a similar treatment.  So the Gentile church met on Sunday and called it a sabbath, and renounced all ties with traditional Judaism.

The division which took place between "Christianity" and "Judaism" though, is addressed in scripture itself, and not just history. Your suggestion that this division took place because of Roman persecution alone, is revisionist history at its finest. Ignoring the record within scripture itself regarding the beginnings of this division. Which division only grew over time between those Jews and Gentiles who accepted Christ Jesus our Lord as the true Prince and Messiah of the Jewish nation and biblical prophecy. It was the Jews themselves, who rejected Jesus Christ as their promised Messiah, who began the division your revisionist version of history apparently ignores.

Not revisionist history but history from a source you do not accept: ancient Jewish writings.

Were there divisions during the 2nd temple period?  Certainly.  But not the complete separation. Were there Jews opposed to the Gospel?  Absolutely.  But Not ALL Jews.  Not even the majority of Jews; which is why the leadership which was opposed were so adamant in their condemnation.

Is animal sacrifice Torah observance?

Yes.  It is part of it when there is a functioning Temple and priesthood - which there was during Paul's lifetime.

And in Acts 21 we see him involved with that. 

20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.” 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

That was based on this:

Numbers 6:13
Now this is the law of the Nazirite when the days of his separation are fulfilled, he shall bring the offering to the doorway of the tent of meeting. 14 He shall present his offering to the Lord: one male lamb a year old without defect for a burnt offering and one ewe-lamb a year old without defect for a sin offering and one ram without defect for a peace offering,

Paul had already been on a Nazirite vow which had to end in Cenchrea (Acts 18:18) probably due to someone dieing near him. So he would have had to do the sacrifices for himself.  BUt with his agreement with James he also bought the sacrifices for 4 more people - to prove that he would still "walk orderly, keeping the Law."  Acts 21b.

You keep insisting that a spiritual anything is not a literal thing. At first I thought perhaps you didn't really understand the meaning of literal.  I am still not sure that you do.  But now I am even more concerned that you do not understand the meaning of spiritual.  The spiritual is literal.

As I have already specified, I am referring to spiritual Israel not being a literal kingdom of this world. As the literal nation of Israel which exists today. According to those still of the old covenant mindset in relation to Israel. The spiritual death Christians die by faith in Christ is very real as well, but we know and understand that it is not the same as the literal death we die in this world that plants us six feet under. It is in fact far more important and consequential than that literal death though, having eternal consequences.

It is the same with Israel. Israel of old, of this literal world, is no longer the kingdom of God. The kingdom was taken away from those Jews of this world who rejected Jesus Christ as their Messiah, and given to a nation producing the fruits thereof (Mat 21:33-45). Which fruits can only be produced within those who walk according to the spirit, not the flesh. Those of the spiritual kingdom of God, not the literal kingdoms "of this world". Spiritual Israel.

1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

 And I  would like  to see  where  after  Saul / Paul , being  saved in  Acts 9:6   KEPT  , all of  Jewish  customs  and  RITES !!

 dan p

Right about now would be a good time to discus when the Jewish Sect, the Way became a separate religion and why?

Right about now would be a good time to discuss when the Jewish Sect, the Way became a separate religion and why?

About 90AD.  Rabbi Akiva and his Pharisee cohorts decided to reform Judaism in such a way that it only included Pharisees.  They ostracized all the other sects of Judaism that still existed, but especially Christianity.

Jarrod