Author Topic: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?  (Read 1922 times)

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Offline 4WD

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #35 on: Tue Jun 21, 2022 - 09:56:32 »
Yeah, I thought that might be the silly interpretation you would give it.

Offline dan p

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #36 on: Tue Jun 21, 2022 - 18:14:18 »
And  in  Phil 3:5  concerning  the  Law a  Pharisee !

and in   Phil 3:6 and  concerning righteousness which  is the  LAW ,  BLAMELESS !!

 dan p

Offline Amo

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #37 on: Sat Jun 25, 2022 - 08:19:42 »
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I am familiar with the scriptures you reference.  And I reject that interpretation.

And what interpretation do you believe in its place? Here we are, quote the scriptures you claim you know I am talking about, and give their proper interpretation please. Or does your rejection of the interpretation imply you simply ignore those verses? 

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Just as you decry early church decisions to change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, I decry the decisions of the early church to distance themselves from normative Judaism to escape Roman persecution in the 2nd century.  They were both part of the same package, Amo.

You are comparing two very different events, at two different times, with two different sources of authentication. Revisionist historians are as revisionist historians do I suppose. Including of course, leaving out important details, which completely change the story or narrative they are trying to sell as truth.

There are no records from scripture addressing the change of the Sabbath from one day to another, because such never took place while the authors of them were alive. While our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ did address the issue of the seventh day sabbath many times, He never even suggested in any way shape or form that it would from one day to another. Testifying to the contrary, that God's law would not change before heaven and earth passed. Nor did any of the Apostles ever address any such change, holding up the commandments of God as the standard unto the last book and chapter of the New Testament. We must look to and study history alone regarding the change of the sabbath.

The division which took place between "Christianity" and "Judaism" though, is addressed in scripture itself, and not just history. Your suggestion that this division took place because of Roman persecution alone, is revisionist history at its finest. Ignoring the record within scripture itself regarding the beginnings of this division. Which division only grew over time between those Jews and Gentiles who accepted Christ Jesus our Lord as the true Prince and Messiah of the Jewish nation and biblical prophecy. It was the Jews themselves, who rejected Jesus Christ as their promised Messiah, who began the division your revisionist version of history apparently ignores.

Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. 54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Act 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. 2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him. 3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. 49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region. 50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts. 51 But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium.

Act 26:9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. 11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.


You ought to face the facts concerning where the division you harp upon really began. It began with a large segment of Israel rejecting and crucifying their own predicted Messiah and Prince. It then continued in the persecution of Jew and gentile alike, who accepted our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as just exactly that, from city to city by these same Jews who rejected their own Lord and Savior. Persecuting, imprisoning, and murdering the followers of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. This rejection being maintained to this very day by many, the tides eventually turned in favor of professed "Christians" in any case, who severed the connection with Jews completely and began persecuting them. This as "Christianity" became increasingly political and therefore apostate itself.

Nevertheless, those Jews who rejected their Messiah when He came to them the first time, all ever since who did the same throughout history, and those who still do today, are not the Israel of God. The New Covenant Israel of God transcends nations, races, tribes, or what have you. It is the spiritual nation addressed by the very scriptures you reject proving this to be so. So be it.

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Of course it is. (except we call Him Yeshua the Messiah)  But Not in the way you think.

Of course, it is not possible that those who still reject Yeshua the Messiah as such, are part of that kingdom. Whether Jew or Gentile, correct? My point however, is concerning Christ's kingdom, which you claim the literal Jews  are still part of. Which is simply not possible, as Christ's new covenant kingdom is not a literal one, as He Himself testified.

Joh 18:33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews? 34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me? 35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done? 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. 37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

I ask you Dave, what kind of kingdom would a kingdom that is not of this world be? Would it not be a spiritual kingdom? Yes, of course it would. Nothing proves more precisely that the literal nation of Israel today, is not the Israel of God during this New Covenant era, than the very fact that it is a literal nation of this world again.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Joh 4:19  The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


Why will you reject the above words of your Lord and Savior, in declaring those of literal national Israel to be of the kingdom of God without being of the spirit or born again? Paul also declared this truth in more than one place.

Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Why will you deny the above in declaring literal national Israel of the kingdom of God?

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Why will you deny the above truth by maintaining a separation which our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ came to remove? I of course can go on with many more verses to the same effect as the above. Please do though, give the proper interpretation of the above quoted scriptures, since you reject that which I am presenting. Surely you won't  declare something being wrong, without also declaring what is right concerning the same, will you?

Offline 4WD

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #38 on: Sat Jun 25, 2022 - 09:47:49 »
Amo, you continue to use the word "literal" incorrectly, and it causes confusion in what you use it. You said,
Quote
My point however, is concerning Christ's kingdom, which you claim the literal Jews  are still part of. Which is simply not possible, as Christ's new covenant kingdom is not a literal one, as He Himself testified.
But Christ's new covenant kingdom is a literal kingdom.  It is a real kingdom; it is a true kingdom; it is not figurative; it is not metaphorical.  He is Lord of a real, literal kingdom.  It is spiritual, not physical; nevertheless it is a real, literal kingdom.

Look up the word in the dictionary and learn what it means and learn how to use it correctly. It will help us to not be confused with what you are saying.

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #38 on: Sat Jun 25, 2022 - 09:47:49 »

Offline dan p

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #39 on: Sat Jun 25, 2022 - 14:02:49 »
And the KJV  READS ,  of  whom  I am  PROTOS /  CHIEF

 NIV  READS , of whom I am the  worst /PROTOS

 ESV  reads ,of  whom Imam  FOREMOST / PROTOS .

 NLT  reads , of  whom  I am  the  WORST  OF  ALL / PROTOS

 YLT  reads ,FIRST / PROTOS , of  whom  I am

 Why  not look up what  FIRST / PROTOS  means , and  PHIL 3:6 says that Paul  was  BLAMELESS and it is the  word  of  God  that  confirms it .

 By  the  way , in  Luke 1:5 and 6 , we see that  Zacharias said of  ABIA  and  ELISABETH    were  both  righteous before  God  ,  walking  in all  the  commandments and  ordinances of the  Lord  ,  BLAMELESS .

So does  PROTOS  means  FIRST  or  means  TWO  or can  mean  TO  WALK , OR  MAYBE  MEAN  thirty ?

dan p
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 30, 2022 - 15:23:19 by dan p »

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #39 on: Sat Jun 25, 2022 - 14:02:49 »

Offline Amo

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #40 on: Sat Jun 25, 2022 - 15:48:08 »
Amo, you continue to use the word "literal" incorrectly, and it causes confusion in what you use it. You said, But Christ's new covenant kingdom is a literal kingdom.  It is a real kingdom; it is a true kingdom; it is not figurative; it is not metaphorical.  He is Lord of a real, literal kingdom.  It is spiritual, not physical; nevertheless it is a real, literal kingdom.

Look up the word in the dictionary and learn what it means and learn how to use it correctly. It will help us to not be confused with what you are saying.

I do mean exactly to convey that Christ's kingdom is literally, not of this world. I should have said His kingdom is not a literal one of this world to be more precise. His kingdoms have nothing to do with the literal kingdoms of this world, that be of the powers of this world. He established a spiritual kingdom in this world which is not of the world, and sustains this kingdom by His power alone, not any powers that be of this world.

Yes, the kingdom is real, more real than anything in and of this world. This world is what really does not exist. God has only allowed its existence in rebellion of Him temporarily, in order to allow for a time and place where those in rebellion of Him may decide and or choose otherwise. Thereby avoiding their own end when this world ends. We are the vapor or puff of smoke which is vanishing. God is Spirit and forever. Those alone who choose to follow His only begotten Son who was lead of the Spirit, will be forever also.

It is this world alone, that is not real as it were. Not being attached to Him who is Himself reality, apart from which there is nothing. What we call or consider reality in this vapor of a world, is not reality or literal at all. It is a temporary state of being or construct, suited to preserve our lives unto the one and only decision that matters. The one decision that can make us real and literal beings of God's true kingdom, which is itself beyond our present ability to comprehend. The things we call supernatural or miraculous are in fact the reality of all the rest of Creation which is not separated from God as we are. Those who are able to see Him as He is. As the saved will when our Lord returns.

1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Yes, Christ's kingdom is very real, reality itself. In this sense it is literal. Yet not like anything we know of reality in this present world. This world is not reality. It exists as apart from Him alone who is reality.

1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Offline 4WD

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #41 on: Sat Jun 25, 2022 - 19:07:26 »
So, of course, you didn't even bother to look up the meaning of the word.  And for that you will continue to write gibberish whenever you use the word.  Besides looking up the definition, it might help if you looked at synonyms and antonyms for the word.

Offline Amo

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #42 on: Sun Jun 26, 2022 - 00:13:18 »
So, of course, you didn't even bother to look up the meaning of the word.  And for that you will continue to write gibberish whenever you use the word.  Besides looking up the definition, it might help if you looked at synonyms and antonyms for the word.

I did look up the word, it means what I thought it meant. Perhaps I did not use it well, as stated in the last post. So you were wrong, you don't know what I did. Christ's kingdom is not a literal kingdom or nation of this world at all. He is not of this world, His kingdom is not of this world, and His own are not of this world. They walk in the spirit, which is not of this world.

Joh 18:36  Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

I say again, Christ's kingdom and His own are not of this literal world, or among the literal nations of this world, or even among those of the literal people pf this world. Christ's own are called out of this world. In this instance and sense, literal and spiritual are in fact opposites. The literal things of this world are opposite of the spiritual things of God.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Jas 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? 2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. 3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. 4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.


I do mean to say, that God's kingdom and people are not of this literal world. The kingdom they are part of is not literal but rather spiritual and universal. Above and apart from all kingdoms and nations of this world. Nor can they ever be removed from God's spiritual kingdom but by God Himself. Unlike the kingdoms of this world which any can be literally and physically removed from. God's kingdom transcends the literal kingdoms, nations, and peoples of this world.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

« Last Edit: Sun Jun 26, 2022 - 00:17:59 by Amo »

Offline 4WD

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #43 on: Sun Jun 26, 2022 - 05:54:41 »
Christ's kingdom is not a literal kingdom or nation of this world at all.
But it is a real kingdom IN this world. All who are in Christ belong to that kingdom.  We are not OF the world, but we are IN the world. The kingdom of heaven is a literal kingdom.

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #43 on: Sun Jun 26, 2022 - 05:54:41 »

Offline Amo

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #44 on: Sun Jun 26, 2022 - 10:03:44 »
But it is a real kingdom IN this world. All who are in Christ belong to that kingdom.  We are not OF the world, but we are IN the world. The kingdom of heaven is a literal kingdom.

Yes, more real than this literal, observable, tangible, and so very temporary world we live in. We just cannot see, touch, or in many ways even perceive it now without special revelation from God. I think we believe very much alike on this point, but approach the subject form different perspectives. The kingdom of heaven is a literal kingdom in the sense that it is very real. But it is not and cannot be a literal, observable, nation or kingdom of this world such as literal observable Israel. With real literal borders, that can be mapped. It is universal and spiritual, being beyond such as it were factual present realities. It is of a realm we do not presently have access to, but by faith and or special revelation or access from God.

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

In this present world, the kingdom of God is not literally observed. When God returns we shall all literally observe, see, hear, feel, and either fear or be overjoyed by it.

1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.



Offline 4WD

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #45 on: Sun Jun 26, 2022 - 10:19:54 »
The kingdom of heaven is a literal kingdom in the sense that it is very real.
That is what literal means!

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #46 on: Sun Jun 26, 2022 - 10:23:16 »
In this present world, the kingdom of God is not literally observed.
I am sure that you do not.  And that is terribly sad. I literally observe it every time I meet and/or speak with one of His.

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #47 on: Sun Jun 26, 2022 - 19:22:29 »
I am sure that you do not.  And that is terribly sad. I literally observe it every time I meet and/or speak with one of His.

You do not even see what we will be when God's kingdom is come, let alone what that kingdom will look like or entail. If you wish to consider such, you may attempt to envision that which is described as best possible in the scriptures. You are of course free to believe whatever you wish. At least you are in for a big and awesome surprise when you do actually see the kingdom of God which is at present beyond our view and or comprehension, and our new glorious spiritual bodies. Unless of course you refer to spiritual character of God's own, who have the kingdom within them, and not our literal appearance now.

God's kingdom on earth now, is a spiritual one. When He returns it will be literal again. At which time alone, we will actually see and understand, as we are seen and understood.

1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.......................................
10  And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. 6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. 7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. 8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. 10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.



Offline 4WD

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #48 on: Sun Jun 26, 2022 - 20:15:36 »
God's kingdom on earth now, is a spiritual one. When He returns it will be literal again.
You keep insisting that a spiritual anything is not a literal thing. At first I thought perhaps you didn't really understand the meaning of literal.  I am still not sure that you do.  But now I am even more concerned that you do not understand the meaning of spiritual.  The spiritual is literal.

Offline DaveW

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #49 on: Mon Jun 27, 2022 - 07:42:06 »
And what interpretation do you believe in its place? Here we are, quote the scriptures you claim you know I am talking about, and give their proper interpretation please. Or does your rejection of the interpretation imply you simply ignore those verses? 
I hold to the intrepretation that Paul was a VERY observant orthodox Jew with complete Torah observance. (while fighting hard for Gentiles to not have to follow Torah)
Quote
You are comparing two very different events, at two different times, with two different sources of authentication. Revisionist historians are as revisionist historians do I suppose. Including of course, leaving out important details, which completely change the story or narrative they are trying to sell as truth.
Not really.  Both happened at the same time in the last half of the 2nd century, following the failed Bar Kochba revolt.  Rome lifted almost all of the Jews out of the province of Judea and renamed it Palestina. (after the Philistines) The Jews were scattered all thru the empire and Rome persecuted them hard and anything that even looked like Judaism suffered a similar treatment.  So the Gentile church met on Sunday and called it a sabbath, and renounced all ties with traditional Judaism.

Quote
The division which took place between "Christianity" and "Judaism" though, is addressed in scripture itself, and not just history. Your suggestion that this division took place because of Roman persecution alone, is revisionist history at its finest. Ignoring the record within scripture itself regarding the beginnings of this division. Which division only grew over time between those Jews and Gentiles who accepted Christ Jesus our Lord as the true Prince and Messiah of the Jewish nation and biblical prophecy. It was the Jews themselves, who rejected Jesus Christ as their promised Messiah, who began the division your revisionist version of history apparently ignores.
Not revisionist history but history from a source you do not accept: ancient Jewish writings.

Were there divisions during the 2nd temple period?  Certainly.  But not the complete separation. Were there Jews opposed to the Gospel?  Absolutely.  But Not ALL Jews.  Not even the majority of Jews; which is why the leadership which was opposed were so adamant in their condemnation.

Offline 4WD

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #50 on: Mon Jun 27, 2022 - 09:10:07 »
I hold to the intrepretation that Paul was a VERY observant orthodox Jew with complete Torah observance.
Is animal sacrifice Torah observance?

Offline DaveW

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #51 on: Mon Jun 27, 2022 - 11:50:12 »
Is animal sacrifice Torah observance?
Yes.  It is part of it when there is a functioning Temple and priesthood - which there was during Paul's lifetime.

And in Acts 21 we see him involved with that. 

20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.” 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

That was based on this:

Numbers 6:13
Now this is the law of the Nazirite when the days of his separation are fulfilled, he shall bring the offering to the doorway of the tent of meeting. 14 He shall present his offering to the Lord: one male lamb a year old without defect for a burnt offering and one ewe-lamb a year old without defect for a sin offering and one ram without defect for a peace offering,


Paul had already been on a Nazirite vow which had to end in Cenchrea (Acts 18:18) probably due to someone dieing near him. So he would have had to do the sacrifices for himself.  BUt with his agreement with James he also bought the sacrifices for 4 more people - to prove that he would still "walk orderly, keeping the Law."  Acts 21b.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #52 on: Tue Jun 28, 2022 - 12:10:20 »
Both happened at the same time in the last half of the 2nd century, following the failed Bar Kochba revolt.
It's strange to call it failed.  The Jews won.  They evicted the Romans from Israel.  Afterwards the Romans raised new legions and re-invaded, but the revolt itself was a success.

So the Gentile church met on Sunday and called it a sabbath...
That didn't happen until many centuries later.   While the early church DID meet on Sundays, they called it The Lord's Day and it did NOT replace Sabbath observance.  They were still observing Sabbath.

Not revisionist history but history from a source you do not accept: ancient Jewish writings.
Honestly there's a lot that's questionable about Jewish history in the first 3 centuries AD... starting with the fact that many of the writers there are specifically anti-Christian.

Offline Amo

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #53 on: Sat Jul 02, 2022 - 16:32:06 »
You keep insisting that a spiritual anything is not a literal thing. At first I thought perhaps you didn't really understand the meaning of literal.  I am still not sure that you do.  But now I am even more concerned that you do not understand the meaning of spiritual.  The spiritual is literal.

As I have already specified, I am referring to spiritual Israel not being a literal kingdom of this world. As the literal nation of Israel which exists today. According to those still of the old covenant mindset in relation to Israel. The spiritual death Christians die by faith in Christ is very real as well, but we know and understand that it is not the same as the literal death we die in this world that plants us six feet under. It is in fact far more important and consequential than that literal death though, having eternal consequences.

It is the same with Israel. Israel of old, of this literal world, is no longer the kingdom of God. The kingdom was taken away from those Jews of this world who rejected Jesus Christ as their Messiah, and given to a nation producing the fruits thereof (Mat 21:33-45). Which fruits can only be produced within those who walk according to the spirit, not the flesh. Those of the spiritual kingdom of God, not the literal kingdoms "of this world". Spiritual Israel.

1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 02, 2022 - 16:34:15 by Amo »

Offline Amo

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #54 on: Sat Jul 02, 2022 - 17:13:36 »
I hold to the intrepretation that Paul was a VERY observant orthodox Jew with complete Torah observance. (while fighting hard for Gentiles to not have to follow Torah) Not really.  Both happened at the same time in the last half of the 2nd century, following the failed Bar Kochba revolt.  Rome lifted almost all of the Jews out of the province of Judea and renamed it Palestina. (after the Philistines) The Jews were scattered all thru the empire and Rome persecuted them hard and anything that even looked like Judaism suffered a similar treatment.  So the Gentile church met on Sunday and called it a sabbath, and renounced all ties with traditional Judaism.
Not revisionist history but history from a source you do not accept: ancient Jewish writings.

Were there divisions during the 2nd temple period?  Certainly.  But not the complete separation. Were there Jews opposed to the Gospel?  Absolutely.  But Not ALL Jews.  Not even the majority of Jews; which is why the leadership which was opposed were so adamant in their condemnation.

No. The life, death, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the lives and testimony of His apostles precede the second century history you are referring to. The separation between authentic Christianity and Judaism began with the persecution of Jewish and Gentile followers of Christ, by those Jews who rejected their Messiah. And continued thereafter in relation to that original separation. Including the destruction of the temple and dispersion of the Jews by the judgment of God once again, for their apostasy.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Nevertheless, the gospel of Jesus Christ is still, to the Jew first, and then the Gentile. God's mercy is great. Any and all who will believe, including Jews who will "abide not still in unbelief", will be graft into the vine which is Christ Jesus our Lord unto salvation.

The division began as a result of apostate Jews who would not believe, persecuting those who did. It continued with apostate Christians persecuting both. That division was not corrected by the establishment again, of the literal nation of Israel in and of this world. That division as all others, can only be corrected in Christ Jesus our Lord. Who came to make both one, as new creatures in Christ Jesus.

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.




Offline dan p

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #55 on: Mon Jul 11, 2022 - 16:35:55 »
 And I  would like  to see  where  after  Saul / Paul , being  saved in  Acts 9:6   KEPT  , all of  Jewish  customs  and  RITES !!

 dan p

Offline DaveW

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #56 on: Tue Jul 12, 2022 - 07:36:45 »
And I  would like  to see  where  after  Saul / Paul , being  saved in  Acts 9:6   KEPT  , all of  Jewish  customs  and  RITES !!
As to ALL of it, the writer of Acts (luke) did not record the minutia. But he gave evidence enough.  In Acts 18 he cut his hair:

Acts 18:18
Paul, having remained many days longer, took leave of the brethren and put out to sea for Syria, and with him were Priscilla and Aquila. In Cenchrea he had his hair cut, for he was keeping a vow.


Now the only vow in the OT that involved cutting hair was the Nazirite vow found in Numbers 6.  It involved animal sacrifice.  And Paul took that voluntarily.  Later he has this encounter with James in Jerusalem:

Acts 21:17
After we arrived in Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 And the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.


As I said, the vow with cutting hair is the Nazirite vow and these 4 men also had taken it.  So Paul was instructed to pay for their sacrifices. That was to show that he himself still obeyed the Law of Moses.  IF he did NOT keep the Law or believed it was no longer applicable, this was the opportune time to say so but he followed James' instructions.  Those who opposed him saw him in the temple and had him arrested.

After being arrested and taken to Rome, he called the rabbis in that city and talked to them:

Acts 28:17
After three days Paul called together those who were the leading men of the Jews, and when they came together, he began saying to them, “Brethren, though I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.


"Customs of the fathers" refers to the Oral tradition which would later be written down in the Mishnah and Talmuds. He not only kept to the Law of Moses but he also kept to the oral tradition he was trained to.

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #57 on: Tue Jul 12, 2022 - 07:43:17 »
Right about now would be a good time to discus when the Jewish Sect, the Way became a separate religion and why?


Offline DaveW

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #58 on: Tue Jul 12, 2022 - 08:05:49 »
Right about now would be a good time to discus when the Jewish Sect, the Way became a separate religion and why?
Probably that needs its own thread.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #59 on: Wed Jul 13, 2022 - 02:53:43 »
Right about now would be a good time to discuss when the Jewish Sect, the Way became a separate religion and why?
About 90AD.  Rabbi Akiva and his Pharisee cohorts decided to reform Judaism in such a way that it only included Pharisees.  They ostracized all the other sects of Judaism that still existed, but especially Christianity.

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #60 on: Sat Jul 30, 2022 - 08:20:17 »
Texas Conservative, I agree with you. It's nonsense. It's a new Paulinian subculture trying to make Paul more than he was, rather than part of a whole.