Author Topic: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?  (Read 1934 times)

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Offline dan p

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WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« on: Mon Jun 13, 2022 - 16:10:26 »
And in  1  Tim 1:15  ,   many   translation say  that  Paul  is CHIEF OF  SINNERS and use  this  passage to  convince , many , that if  Paul  is the CHIEF od  SINNERS , than there is  HOPE for  all .

 verse  16  reads , Faithful the  WORD  and  worthy  of  all  reception , that  Christ  Jesus came  into  the  world to  save  SINNER S , of  whom  I  AM  , FIRST  /  PROTOS .

Verse  16 ,  reads  , But for  this  reason I was  given  mercy in  order that  in  ME  (  THE  GREEK  ME is  EMPHATIC )    FIRST /  PROTOS  ,  Christ  Jesus might show  forth all  long  suffering for  a  PATTERN /  HYPOTYOSIS OF THE  ONES coming to  believe on  Him  unto  EVERLASTING  LIFE .

 In  Phil 3:5  circumcisied the  eighth  day ,  from  the  tribe of  Judah , concerning the  LAW ,  a  Pharisee ,  concerning  Zeal , persecuting  the  assembly ,  concerning  righteousness in  LAW ,   BLAMELESS .

 This  also  means , that  Paul  was the  FIRST / PROTOS  saved by  GRACE and the  first  one  in  the  BODY  of  Christ and Paul s  our  PATTERN .

 dan p

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #1 on: Mon Jun 13, 2022 - 16:25:59 »
You ask why Paul is misunderstood while misunderstanding Paul. 


Offline dan p

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #2 on: Mon Jun 13, 2022 - 19:00:53 »
 Be  glad for  you to explain  1  Tim 1:15 and  16 ?

And how  about  Gal 1:10  , would  be  fine ?

 dan p
« Last Edit: Mon Jun 13, 2022 - 19:08:27 by dan p »

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #3 on: Mon Jun 13, 2022 - 20:37:32 »
Paul was the first stuff is nonsense.  Your scripture references say no such thing.

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #3 on: Mon Jun 13, 2022 - 20:37:32 »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #4 on: Tue Jun 14, 2022 - 00:48:10 »
The church is the body and those baptized in Acts 2 were added to the church.

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #4 on: Tue Jun 14, 2022 - 00:48:10 »

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #5 on: Tue Jun 14, 2022 - 04:05:19 »
And in  1  Tim 1:15  ,   many   translation say  that  Paul  is CHIEF OF  SINNERS and use  this  passage to  convince , many , that if  Paul  is the CHIEF od  SINNERS , than there is  HOPE for  all .

 verse  16  reads , Faithful the  WORD  and  worthy  of  all  reception , that  Christ  Jesus came  into  the  world to  save  SINNER S , of  whom  I  AM  , FIRST  /  PROTOS .
First in standing, or place, or status, NOT first in time. 

(NIV)  Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst.

(ESV)  The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.

(KJV)  This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.


πρῶτος

prōtos

pro'-tos

Contracted superlative of G4253; foremost (in time, place, order or importance): - before, beginning, best, chief (-est), first (of all), former.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #6 on: Tue Jun 14, 2022 - 12:29:06 »
WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
What's your first language, Dan?  If it's English, are you dyslexic?  I'm not trying to poke fun, I'm just trying to figure out how you consistently get words out of order and confused.

Paul is so mis-understood because he writes about things that are hard to understand.  Well, Peter said so...

2 Peter 3:15-16
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Offline dan p

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #7 on: Tue Jun 14, 2022 - 14:24:41 »
And in  Acts 2:47 is  that  the  verse , that you   are   thinking  about ?

 But in  Acts 2:36  , the  context  is  about  Israel  and  NOT  about  GENTILES .

 In  Acts 2:47  it  reads , And  the  Lord  was  ADDING / PROSTITHEMI  is in the  Greek IMPERFECT  TENSE , ACTIVE  VOICE  and in the INDICATIVE  MOOD .

#1 It was the  LORD  that was   ADDING  TO THE  ASSEMBLY 1

 #2 If  anyone looks at  STRONG'S DICTIONARY  you will not  find the English  word  CHURCH  !!

 #3  The  IMPERFECT  TENSE  means that  the  Lord  was  doing  the  ADDING  , but NOT  Peter , but that the  LORD  was   going to  STOP   , ADDING as the  Lord  was  going  to set  Israel  ASIDE as  Paul  wrote in  2  Cor  3:13-15 and  Isa  6:1-13  are just 2  verses .

 #3  The  ACTIVE VOICE  means that the  Lord is  causing that  action .

 #4 The  Indicative  Mood  means , Acts  2:47  is a  FACT ,  PERIOD !!

 dan p

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #8 on: Wed Jun 15, 2022 - 05:56:39 »
You ask why Paul is misunderstood while misunderstanding Paul.
Indeed.

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #8 on: Wed Jun 15, 2022 - 05:56:39 »

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #9 on: Wed Jun 15, 2022 - 06:00:30 »
Paul is misunderstood because no one for centuries wanted to see him as he truly was: A Pharisee.  He was an ORTHODOX JEWISH theologian and was so his entire life.  The early church fathers wanted to distance themselves from Judaism as much as possible in the wake of the failed Bar Kochba revolt of 135 ad and turned Paul into a Jew hater.   

So now the attempts to restore Paul to his rightful place as an observant Jew are called "misunderstood."

Acts 23:6
But perceiving that one group were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, Paul began crying out in the Council, “Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!”

Acts 28:17
After three days Paul called together those who were the leading men of the Jews, and when they came together, he began saying to them, “Brethren, though I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.


"I AM a Pharisee.."  Present tense, not I WAS a Pharisee.
"Customs of the Fathers" = rabbinic oral tradition
« Last Edit: Wed Jun 15, 2022 - 06:05:05 by DaveW »

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #10 on: Wed Jun 15, 2022 - 06:19:54 »
The early church fathers wanted to distance themselves from Judaism as much as possible ......
As did Paul.

I am not sure what you are implying with the statement that Paul was an ORTHODOX JEWISH theologian.  Did he know the theology of the Pharisees? Of course.  Did he hold to it or teach it? No.

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #11 on: Wed Jun 15, 2022 - 06:35:23 »
I am not sure what you are implying with the statement that Paul was an ORTHODOX JEWISH theologian.  Did he know the theology of the Pharisees? Of course.
Better than almost every other Pharisee mentioned in the NT.
Quote
Did he hold to it or teach it? No.
By his own admission in Acts 28.17, YES.

Suggest you read this:

https://smile.amazon.com/Paul-Jewish-Theologian-Pharisee-Christians/dp/0801048214/ref=sr_1_1?crid=26GMRWY3OQ6HQ&keywords=paul+the+jewish+theologian&qid=1655292975&s=books&sprefix=paul+the+jew%2Cstripbooks%2C72&sr=1-1

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #12 on: Wed Jun 15, 2022 - 08:08:27 »
Better than almost every other Pharisee mentioned in the NT. By his own admission in Acts 28.17, YES.
He was obviously circumcised, but he didn't teach it nor promote it for Gentiles.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #13 on: Wed Jun 15, 2022 - 11:18:22 »
The early church fathers wanted to distance themselves from Judaism as much as possible in the wake of the failed Bar Kochba revolt of 135 ad...
The revolt was successful.  They overthrew Roman rule and evicted the Romans from Galilee and Judea.  It took the Romans 3 1/2 years to raise/mobilize new legions to go re-conquer the region.

...and turned Paul into a Jew hater.

Are you suggesting that they altered the content of the Pauline epistles?  ::headscratch::

I understand that there was anti-Jewish sentiment in the centuries afterwards, but don't we just have Paul at his own word? ???

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #14 on: Wed Jun 15, 2022 - 12:19:50 »
He was obviously circumcised, but he didn't teach it nor promote it for Gentiles.
Correct.  But he did teach it for Jews who came to faith in Yeshua/Jesus.

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #15 on: Wed Jun 15, 2022 - 12:20:43 »

Are you suggesting that they altered the content of the Pauline epistles?  ::headscratch::
Content?  No.  But how that content was interpreted - for sure.

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #16 on: Wed Jun 15, 2022 - 15:27:13 »
Correct.  But he did teach it for Jews who came to faith in Yeshua/Jesus.
Where?  References?

Offline Amo

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #17 on: Wed Jun 15, 2022 - 17:14:08 »
Quote
This  also  means , that  Paul  was the  FIRST / PROTOS  saved by  GRACE and the  first  one  in  the  BODY  of  Christ and Paul s  our  PATTERN .

1Co 1:12  Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

1Co 3:1  And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. 10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.


You best be making Jesus Christ the First, and your pattern. Paul cannot save you. He points to Him alone who can. Christ is the pattern of all the saved. All and any who place anyone or anything before Him, are and will be lost.

Scripture does not leave us ignorant concerning the confusion regarding Paul's writings, or where it comes from.

2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Submit Paul's writings and all others to the teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and the rest of the word of God which all testify of Him, and you will not be deceived. Those who reverse this process by judging our Lord's teachings and the rest of scripture by Paul or any other, will be deceived.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #18 on: Wed Jun 15, 2022 - 18:33:36 »
And there is only one gospel and one means of salvation: By grace through faith in Christ regardless of wet or dry.
« Last Edit: Wed Jun 15, 2022 - 18:49:15 by Jaime »

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #19 on: Thu Jun 16, 2022 - 05:37:13 »
Where?  References?
Read Acts 21 - the discussion on that topic between James and Paul (v 17-26)  James gives Paul a task to do to prove that he was NOT teaching Jews who came to faith to abandon Moses (the Law) and he complies. Many have said it was Paul's greatest mistake, but the text is clear and Paul was making a clear statement that Jews who believe in Messiah still follow the Law.

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #20 on: Thu Jun 16, 2022 - 05:58:28 »
We know Paul's view of the Law from passages such as Romans 7; but I am not sure that means he addressed the Jews and Gentiles differently with respect to the Law.  Assuming that Paul wrote Hebrews, and I am not he did, I think that also speaks to how he regarded the Law. Hebrews was written specifically to Hebrew Christians who, because of persecutions, were in danger of reverting back to Judaism, something to be avoided at all costs.

I believe too many misread and misunderstand passages like Colossians 2:14 or Ephesians 2:15.

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #21 on: Thu Jun 16, 2022 - 06:48:54 »
We know Paul's view of the Law from passages such as Romans 7; but I am not sure that means he addressed the Jews and Gentiles differently with respect to the Law.
I believe that passages like Acts 15 (addressed to Gentile believers ONLY) and Acts 21 show that he and James were in complete agreement that Jews and Gentiles were addressed differently in regards to the Law.

The churches that Paul wrote to were mostly gentile in makeup, and you see his opinion of GENTILES keeping the Law in those books.

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #22 on: Thu Jun 16, 2022 - 07:34:49 »
I understand that you believe that.  I just think you are wrong.

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #23 on: Fri Jun 17, 2022 - 05:40:40 »
I think the crux of the debate is were Cbristians freed from the Law as in the Law was dismantled or was our debt or penalty for breaking the law paid in full, and the law is intact until heaven and earth pass away. And if the Law is intact, WHICH Law. Did the sermon on the mount in Mathew chapter 5 erase or expand God’s law? Does Jesus word, “you have heard it said, do not murder, but I say to you do not even have anger in your heart” erase or expand the law?


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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #24 on: Fri Jun 17, 2022 - 08:18:39 »
The laws pertaining to literal Israel had to change, when spiritual Israel composed of all in Christ Jesus our Lord was established by Him. Many of the laws being fulfilled had to change, having no more meaning and or even becoming an affront to God if continued after our Lord's sacrifice. The literal temple is no more. Literal sacrifices are no more. Christ and His church both corporately and individually are the New Covenant Temple of God. Christ's sacrifice, and the willing sacrifice of His followers in Him are the New Covenant sacrifices and offerings. To reestablish these practices and therefore the laws related to them again, would be an affront to God. He having replaced them with the reality they only ever represented, according exactly to His plan from the beginning. Nevertheless, these are the very things certain apostate "Christian" entities have established again through false priesthoods, doctrines, and practices which place fallen humanity between God and the sinner again. Making humanity dependent upon them, rather than God through Christ our Lord again.

Apart from this are the many civil laws which pertained to literal Israel which simply no longer even have any relation to peoples daily lives and practice now. The moral law of God, written and spoken to humanity by God Himself, will of course always remain relevant and the standard for all in Christ Jesus our Lord. As Christ Jesus our Lord Himself testified along with many other New Testament scripture. Even still pertaining to it though, we now have the superior testimony of that moral law being lived out perfectly in the flesh, in and through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. As Jaime has pointed out, expanding the principles of the law taught and lived out in the life of our savior as our living example in all things. These things are not hidden from humanity, but may be easily worked out and understood by all seeking truth, and willfully submitting to it when discovered. It is the latter part that we struggle with the most. The main confusion on the matter is again the unlearned who twist the words of mainly Paul concerning such things. Or those who simply do not wish to submit to this or that scriptural teaching, either ignoring or creating arguments from twisting scripture itself as well.

Wanting to keep laws designed for literal Israel itself in this New Covenant era is fine for any who wish to do so, but demanding they must be kept by all is another issue altogether. Some of which as already stated, would compose nothing but an affront to God, and the sacrifice of His Son and His teachings.   

Joh 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
« Last Edit: Fri Jun 17, 2022 - 08:21:20 by Amo »

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #25 on: Fri Jun 17, 2022 - 09:24:44 »
Well said, Amo.

+1

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #26 on: Fri Jun 17, 2022 - 09:40:43 »
The question still remains: Is the law intact or is a Christian's penalty for breaking the law paid in full when they are In Christ? AND WHICH law are we talking about? The Mosaic Law, the law of sin and death, the 10 Commandments?
« Last Edit: Fri Jun 17, 2022 - 11:00:40 by Jaime »

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #27 on: Fri Jun 17, 2022 - 09:59:23 »
Amo -  I have told you before and I will say it again:  There is no such thing in scripture as a "spiritual Israel."

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #28 on: Fri Jun 17, 2022 - 13:09:46 »
  And I  agree  with  DaveW 

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #29 on: Fri Jun 17, 2022 - 15:40:15 »
Uh-Oh, that's a bad sign Dave. rofl

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #30 on: Fri Jun 17, 2022 - 20:47:31 »
Amo -  I have told you before and I will say it again:  There is no such thing in scripture as a "spiritual Israel."

What do I care about the words of Dave W? He is just like me, dust, here today gone tomorrow. Show me from scripture that there is no spiritual Israel, and I will show you that there is. Tell me Dave, is your Israel of Christ Jesus? Is it His kingdom? Yes or no?

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #31 on: Tue Jun 21, 2022 - 05:36:37 »
Show me from scripture that there is no spiritual Israel,
Show me from scripture there is no bogey man. 
Quote
and I will show you that there is.
I am familiar with the scriptures you reference.  And I reject that interpretation.

Just as you decry early church decisions to change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, I decry the decisions of the early church to distance themselves from normative Judaism to escape Roman persecution in the 2nd century.  They were both part of the same package, Amo.
Quote
Tell me Dave, is your Israel of Christ Jesus? Is it His kingdom? Yes or no?
Of course it is. (except we call Him Yeshua the Messiah)  But Not in the way you think.

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #32 on: Tue Jun 21, 2022 - 07:55:18 »
I am familiar with the scriptures you reference.  And I reject that interpretation.
As a start, I would be interested in your interpretation of Romans 9:6-9.

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

There are several questions which need to be answered. First, what is the promise that Paul is referencing here? Second who, specifically, are the children of the promise? Third, what is your definition of "Israel" and how do the children of promise relate to your definition of "Israel".

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #33 on: Tue Jun 21, 2022 - 09:28:15 »
There are several questions which need to be answered. First, what is the promise that Paul is referencing here?
The promise of being in a covenant relationship to God. 

"I will be their God and they shall be my people."  Multiple references.

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Second who, specifically, are the children of the promise?
The descendants of Jacob.

Abraham also had Ishmael and his descendants, and Isaac had Esau and his descendants. Those were all offspring of Abraham; but were not included in the promise of God being their God.

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Third, what is your definition of "Israel" and how do the children of promise relate to your definition of "Israel".
First off, the physical descendants of Jacob; with the gentiles grafted in.   (Romans 11) This is NOT a "spiritual Israel" as no such animal exists in scripture.  And it is clear that the not-yet believing community of Jews are included by Paul saying in Rom 11 that some Israelites are "enemies of the gospel." But he assures us toward the end of the chapter that "All Israel shall be saved."    This references several Hebrew Scripture prophecies; including Zechariah 12 and Jeremiah 31.

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Re: WHY PAUL IS SO MISUNDERSTOOD ?
« Reply #34 on: Tue Jun 21, 2022 - 09:56:32 »
Yeah, I thought that might be the silly interpretation you would give it.