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Offline Reformer

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Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 22:15:51 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_________________________
 
Why The Clergy System Is
Questionable

    Heaven’s testimony says we are to mutually edify one another. “Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification” [Rom. 14:19]. We are told to “instruct one another” and to “teach and admonish one another” [Rom. 15:14 & Col. 3:16]. Additionally, we are admonished to “encourage one another and build each other up” [1 Thess. 5:11].

     The “one another” method is heaven’s model. The “solo method” is man’s model. In all of these passages, there is no hint of the solo edifier or solo minister. Paul, in the Corinthian letter, clearly paints a picture of assembled believers mutually instructing one another [1 Cor. 14]. The solo edifier or solo minister isn’t even alluded to. His function was conspicuous because of its absence!

    The controversy is not whether a congregation can have a minister. This argument hedges and overlooks the core issue. All believers within a gathering are ministers, for all are servants. The valid question is whether a congregation of ministers can import an elite orator to be the minister. His function interferes with the “one another” model.

     When Paul sent for the leaders of the Christian community at Ephesus [Acts 17:20], for whom did he ask? The minister? No. A minister? No. He sent for the elders or shepherds—or, if you please, overseers. Why did he fail to include the minister? Wasn’t his role significant enough to justify Paul’s including him? He wasn’t there. Roman Catholicism devised his post many decades later. Protestantism borrowed this “religious celebrity” from Roman Catholicism.
 
« Last Edit: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 23:09:01 by Reformer »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #1 on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 22:28:56 »
There is to be no clergy - laity distinction among the people of God. However, evangelist can be part of a local work,  and like Paul preached until midnight, so they can preach.  Mutual edification takess place in the Bible classes and away from the building when we encourage one another daily to be faithful.

Churches also have elders and deacons who oversee and serve in special ways.

« Last Edit: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 22:34:12 by johntwayne »

Offline Reformer

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #2 on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 23:07:59 »
johntwayne:

    You are partly right and partly off-center. In Acts 20:7, Paul was a visiting evangelist and apostle at Troas, where he "brought them up-to-date" relative to his evangelism and missions. Too, they "broke bread" or observed the Lord's Supper.

    Actually, the meeting was a mutual exchange between Paul and the attendees. The Greek strongly indicates a mutual exchange, and Paul was the primary messenger and visitor. "Preach" in some versions is not a correct translation. This is why the English Standard Version reads, "Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day.

    Your idea of mutual edification in Bible classes only is one-hundred off, because Paul instructed the assembly at Corinth, beginning with verse 20 of chapter 14, to practice mutual edification "that all may learn and all be encouraged..." Give verse 26 your close attention.

Kindly,

Buff

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #2 on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 23:07:59 »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #3 on: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 01:22:17 »
Paul left Timothy the evangelist to work with the church at Ephesus. We may do the same today.

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #3 on: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 01:22:17 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #4 on: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 04:59:58 »
There is to be no clergy - laity distinction among the people of God.
My Drash last Saturday on Torah Portion Korach looks at that point.

I can post it here if you want to see it.
Quote
Churches also have elders and deacons who oversee and serve in special ways.
Depends on the congregation and their style of congregational governance.  In some, it is strictly a one man show.

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #4 on: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 04:59:58 »



Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #5 on: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 08:09:08 »
Elders who direct the affairs of the church and whose work is preaching and teaching are worthy of double honor.  (1 Timothy 5:17-18)

James 3:1 says not many should become teachers because they will be judged more strictly.

In Colossians 3, admonishing (warning) and teaching are not the same thing.  In Romans 15:14, the word used in some versions for "instruct" is also "admonish," that isn't the same as teaching.

Buff,  Paul was for a time in Ephesus, you could have probably called him a "minister."  He certainly wasn't from there.

I think you spend too much time focusing on the outward, instead of the inward.  There are many wonderful men of God who have the word "Minister" or "Pastor" as a descriptor. 




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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #5 on: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 08:09:08 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #6 on: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 08:30:52 »
I think you spend too much time focusing on the outward, instead of the inward.  There are many wonderful men of God who have the word "Minister" or "Pastor" as a descriptor.
That seems to me to be an accurate assessment.  If I had to guess, Buff had one or more very unpleasant encounters with some elders in the church(es) in which he ministered.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #7 on: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 08:56:16 »
My Drash last Saturday on Torah Portion Korach looks at that point.

Numbers 16
1 Now Korah the son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, with Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab, and On the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took action, 2 and they rose up before Moses, together with some of the sons of Israel, two hundred and fifty leaders of the congregation, chosen in the assembly, men of renown. 3 They assembled together against Moses and Aaron, and said to them, “You have gone far enough, for all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is in their midst; so why do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the Lord?”

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #8 on: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 12:03:34 »

Numbers 16
1 Now Korah the son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, with Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab, and On the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took action, 2 and they rose up before Moses, together with some of the sons of Israel, two hundred and fifty leaders of the congregation, chosen in the assembly, men of renown. 3 They assembled together against Moses and Aaron, and said to them, “You have gone far enough, for all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is in their midst; so why do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the Lord?”

Hold on a sec.

Korah was wrong here.  This chapter ends with God causing the earth to swallow Dathan and Abiram, and Korah being consumed with fire.

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #8 on: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 12:03:34 »

Offline Reformer

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #9 on: Thu Jun 17, 2021 - 20:56:36 »

CONTRIBUTORS:

    I have read and evaluated all of your responses to my post on the clergy system. I will contribute another post on this subject tomorrow, Friday, to clarify the issue even more. In the meantime, may all of us continue to be ministers [servants]. In essence, the two terms are identical.

Kindly,

Buff

Offline Reformer

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #10 on: Fri Jun 18, 2021 - 13:26:44 »

A SYMPTOM OF THE APOSTATE CHURCH

     Of all the tokens that point to an apostate church, I view the kingly clergy at the top of the list. Their function did not surface until centuries after Jesus and His special envoys, the apostles, introduced the new order. This cancer within the body of believers developed during the period when Roman Catholicism was blooming to stardom. The Protestant movement, following Martin Luther’s break-off from the “Holy See,” appropriated and utilized it.

     Men of this class are considered to be of special rank. They expect to be listened to while behind the pulpit and saluted in the vestibule. They perform the major part of teaching, preaching, exhorting, admonishing, edifying, comforting, praying, visiting, showing compassion, and exhibiting concern. They organize meetings, programs, projects, conferences, and are usually on duty when problems arise or the “enemy” approaches.

     It would be religiously unethical to view these men as the “usual run of the mill,” for they rank above commoners and pew-sitters. They are “men of nobility” who expect to be referred to as either the Preacher, the Priest, the Minister, the Pastor, the “Reverend,” the “Defender of the Faith,” the “Doctor”—or all of them fused together. Their “hallowed” functions are foreign to the primitive order and counter to heaven’s wishes. Some of them dress like Mother but want to be called “Father!”

     We clearly go astray when we elevate one believer above other believers. The Apostle James makes it plain that when we show favoritism, make distinctions between one another, we discriminate among ourselves [James 2:1-9].

Buff

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #11 on: Fri Jun 18, 2021 - 13:51:23 »
A SYMPTOM OF THE APOSTATE CHURCH

     Of all the tokens that point to an apostate church, I view the kingly clergy at the top of the list. Their function did not surface until centuries after Jesus and His special envoys, the apostles, introduced the new order. This cancer within the body of believers developed during the period when Roman Catholicism was blooming to stardom. The Protestant movement, following Martin Luther’s break-off from the “Holy See,” appropriated and utilized it.

     Men of this class are considered to be of special rank. They expect to be listened to while behind the pulpit and saluted in the vestibule. They perform the major part of teaching, preaching, exhorting, admonishing, edifying, comforting, praying, visiting, showing compassion, and exhibiting concern. They organize meetings, programs, projects, conferences, and are usually on duty when problems arise or the “enemy” approaches.

     It would be religiously unethical to view these men as the “usual run of the mill,” for they rank above commoners and pew-sitters. They are “men of nobility” who expect to be referred to as either the Preacher, the Priest, the Minister, the Pastor, the “Reverend,” the “Defender of the Faith,” the “Doctor”—or all of them fused together. Their “hallowed” functions are foreign to the primitive order and counter to heaven’s wishes. Some of them dress like Mother but want to be called “Father!”

     We clearly go astray when we elevate one believer above other believers. The Apostle James makes it plain that when we show favoritism, make distinctions between one another, we discriminate among ourselves [James 2:1-9].

Buff


While some of the people fulfilling God's roles as elders/bishops/presbyters are not called by God, or are wolves in sheep's clothing, your outward looking judgements are bullcrap.

Further, 1 Timothy 5:17-18 says the elders who teach and preach are worthy of double honor.  You appear to be guilty in this thread of eisegesis.

Offline Reformer

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #12 on: Fri Jun 18, 2021 - 14:11:20 »
Texas Conservative:

    “While some of the people fulfilling God’s roles as elders/bishops/presbyters are not called by God, or are wolves in sheep’s clothing, your outward looking judgements are bullcrap.

    “Further, 1 Timothy 5:17-18 says the elders who teach and preach are worthy of double honor. You appear to be guilty in this thread of eisegesis.”


    I think you get the idea, even though your vocation is a bull farmer. Your passage of scripture refers to shepherds of God’s sheep, not the clergy. Shepherds  are also called elders. King James’ “bishop” is not an accurate translation.

    Some of the early shepherds were not only gifted to shepherd and lead wisely, but they were also gifted to evangelize—that is, preach or proclaim the Good News to the unsaved. No shepherd functioned as an elite cleric.

Suggestion: Give some thought to controlling your apparent temper and double-check your spelling.

Kindly,

Buff
« Last Edit: Fri Jun 18, 2021 - 21:39:08 by Reformer »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #13 on: Sat Jun 19, 2021 - 08:04:36 »
Texas Conservative:

    “While some of the people fulfilling God’s roles as elders/bishops/presbyters are not called by God, or are wolves in sheep’s clothing, your outward looking judgements are bullcrap.

    “Further, 1 Timothy 5:17-18 says the elders who teach and preach are worthy of double honor. You appear to be guilty in this thread of eisegesis.”


    I think you get the idea, even though your vocation is a bull farmer. Your passage of scripture refers to shepherds of God’s sheep, not the clergy. Shepherds  are also called elders. King James’ “bishop” is not an accurate translation.

    Some of the early shepherds were not only gifted to shepherd and lead wisely, but they were also gifted to evangelize—that is, preach or proclaim the Good News to the unsaved. No shepherd functioned as an elite cleric.

Suggestion: Give some thought to controlling your apparent temper and double-check your spelling.

Kindly,

Buff


I don't see any spelling errors.  Also, I did not lose my temper, I just happen to be blunt.  Your broad arguments are garbage.  You look at the outward instead of the inward.  You are preaching for division in the body of Christ instead of preaching Christ. 

God didn't call you to preach against preachers and disparage those who are doing God's work.  He called you to preach Jesus Christ.

Offline Reformer

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #14 on: Sat Jun 19, 2021 - 12:51:40 »

Texas Conservative:

    Here, here, you've lost your temper again. "Garbage" reveals the while story. It is self-evident. Your misspelled words are "judgements" & "eisegesis." But that's okay, I, too, do not live above errors. And I easily admit them.

    Later, I will have  more to say about this controversial matter, especially your remark about my "preaching against preachers"—which is totally untrue.

Kindly,

Buff

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #15 on: Sat Jun 19, 2021 - 13:01:17 »
"Judgement" is an appropriate alternate spelling according to Merriam Webster.  "Eisegesis" is also the correct spelling.

And no, my last two posts contained no anger or loss of temper.  My remark about your "preaching against preachers" is entirely true.  And I have not seen you in years on this board easily admit your errors.

Offline Reformer

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #16 on: Sat Jun 19, 2021 - 13:25:09 »
TEXAS CONSERVATIVE:

    I have Webster's New World" dictionary and your "judgement" term is conspicuous because of its absence. And in your original post, your "eisegesis" term is not in Webster's dictionary. There is, however, "exegesis," the term you were shooting for. So who refuses to admit errors?

    More later. Busy for the next few hours or so. So stay tuned, we both may possibly demonstrate how erroneous and human we are!

Buff

Offline 4WD

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #17 on: Sat Jun 19, 2021 - 13:42:05 »
And in your original post, your "eisegesis" term is not in Webster's dictionary. There is, however, "exegesis," the term you were shooting for. So who refuses to admit errors?
"Exegesis" is the extracting of the meaning from the text.  "Eisegesis" is the insertion of a meaning, usually wrong, into the text.  I am pretty sure he meant "eisegesis".

Try dictionary.com

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #18 on: Sat Jun 19, 2021 - 13:45:31 »
I didn't mean to use the word "exegesis."  I meant eisegesis, which means you are interpreting a text (the Bible) to make it match an belief you already have. 

Definition of eisegesis
: the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas
— compare EXEGESIS


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/eisegesis

For "Judgement"

Judgment can also be spelled "judgement," and usage experts have long disagreed over which spelling is the preferred one. Henry Fowler asserted, "The OED [Oxford English Dictionary] prefers the older and more reasonable spelling. 'Judgement' is therefore here recommended." William Safire held an opposite opinion, writing, "My judgment is that Fowler is not to be followed." "Judgement" is in fact the older spelling, but it dropped from favor and for centuries "judgment" was the only spelling to appear in dictionaries. That changed when the OED (Fowler's source) was published showing "judgement" as an equal variant. Today, "judgment" is more popular in the U.S., whereas both spellings make a good showing in Britain.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/judgment


Offline Reformer

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #19 on: Sat Jun 19, 2021 - 14:33:08 »

4WD:

I went to Dictionary.Com, as you suggersted, and found...

Definition of eisegesis
"...the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas." Odd, very odd, the term is not to be found in my Webster's Dictionary.

    For the life of me, I have been exposed to a term of which I was not familiar! I conclude, therefore, that even Dictionaries have their "human weaknesses!"

    On Texas Conservative's remarks [above] on "judgement", I will rest my oars.

Blunders on both sides Forgiven,

Buff

Offline DaveW

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #20 on: Mon Jun 21, 2021 - 06:57:31 »
Hold on a sec.
Korah was wrong here. 
Of course Korah was wrong.  that is why God destroyed him and his co-rebels. 

God used Korah et al to show that HE Himself had ordained a distinction between the Priests, the Levites, and the rest of the Israelites.  Israelites were not to do the work of the Levites and they were not allowed to do the work of the Priests.

Offline Rella

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #21 on: Mon Jun 21, 2021 - 08:42:30 »
4WD:

I went to Dictionary.Com, as you suggersted, and found...

Definition of eisegesis
"...the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas." Odd, very odd, the term is not to be found in my Webster's Dictionary.

    For the life of me, I have been exposed to a term of which I was not familiar! I conclude, therefore, that even Dictionaries have their "human weaknesses!"

    On Texas Conservative's remarks [above] on "judgement", I will rest my oars.

Blunders on both sides Forgiven,

Buff


Merriam Webster (online)

eisegesis noun
 
eis·​ege·​sis | \ ˌī-sə-ˈjē-səs  , ˈī-sə-ˌjē- \
plural eisegeses\ ˌī-​sə-​ˈjē-​ˌsēz  , ˈī-​sə-​ˌjē-​ \
Definition of eisegesis
: the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/eisegesis

Depending on the date of your hardcopy(?)... the dicitonery ( all of them) will continue to add words as it seems to be  an almost living thing.

Online will keep you more up to date

As to the interpretation... this is something that we all do, as has been done through the centuries. And without the ability to definitively know what is wrong or even right.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #22 on: Mon Jun 21, 2021 - 10:07:17 »
Depending on the date of your hardcopy(?)... the dicitonery ( all of them) will continue to add words as it seems to be  an almost living thing.
And that is intentional - to keep it a living document.  The downside of that (IMO a HUGE downside) is that to make room for "new" words and newer definitions of existing words, other less used words get dropped. 

IMO that often leaves holes in the vocabulary.

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #23 on: Mon Jun 21, 2021 - 10:19:55 »
Eisegesis is hardly a new word.  It's older than anyone here.  And you can spell "Judgement" or "Judgment" and be correct, but such truth will leave one with no place to put their oars.

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #24 on: Mon Jun 21, 2021 - 10:36:46 »
Eisegesis is hardly a new word.  It's older than anyone here.  And you can spell "Judgement" or "Judgment" and be correct, but such truth will leave one with no place to put their oars.


IINM, the "e" is required spelling for us frostbitten types.

Who refuses to admit errors anyway?
::lookaround::

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #25 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 11:18:44 »
Of course Korah was wrong.  that is why God destroyed him and his co-rebels. 

God used Korah et al to show that HE Himself had ordained a distinction between the Priests, the Levites, and the rest of the Israelites.  Israelites were not to do the work of the Levites and they were not allowed to do the work of the Priests.
It would seem we are in agreement - God did ordain the Levitical priesthood.

But do you think that Levitical priesthood was meant to serve as a pattern for us today?

I would say no.  The Levitical priesthood was "added because of transgressions."  I would note that it was "disannulled" long ago, for reasons of "unprofitableness."  The Biblical record is replete with examples of the priests being wicked and corrupt, ostensibly in the pockets of the (mostly evil) kings they served.  The prophets are constantly at war with them.  By Jesus' day, the priests were a godless lot that denied both the resurrection and the afterlife, and were largely pushing for the Jews to assimilate into Hellenistic culture.

And that's the group we want to emulate?

Jarrod

Offline Johnb

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #26 on: Wed Sep 01, 2021 - 07:26:37 »
I question the whole modern day institutional church system.

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #27 on: Wed Sep 01, 2021 - 07:49:16 »
I question the whole modern day institutional church system.
Do you question the institution of the leadership of elders?  When you speak of the institutional church system, what are you speaking of specifically?

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Re: Why The Clergy System Is Questionable
« Reply #28 on: Wed Sep 01, 2021 - 07:53:11 »
For those of you who do the "house assembly" thing, do you have elders and deacons?