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Author Topic: Why vinegar at the cross?  (Read 9435 times)

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Offline Elaine

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Why vinegar at the cross?
« on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 07:57:14 »
I have heard many things about the vinegar that was given to Jesus and others on the cross.

Vinegar was medicinal -it was actually a good thing.
It was an additional horrible torture of the Romans.
It was laced with either dope to ease pain or something to speed death.
It was actually laced with a drug planned to be given by Pilate and rich Joseph to mimic death so Joseph (of Arimathea) could spirit Jesus away from Joseph's tomb.

The last one you don't have to waste time commenting on.

Was it a "good" medicinal thing or another horror.   Why not water on a sponge for the dying men, for Pete's sake.

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Why vinegar at the cross?
« on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 07:57:14 »

Offline jessbuds

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #1 on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 08:18:07 »

I think it did happened because it was prohesied long ago?

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #1 on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 08:18:07 »

Offline Jimbob

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #2 on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 08:40:43 »

I think it did happened because it was prohesied long ago?

Are you thinking of Psalm 69:21?

Quote
19 You know how I am scorned, disgraced and shamed;
all my enemies are before you.
20 Scorn has broken my heart
and has left me helpless;
I looked for sympathy, but there was none,
for comforters, but I found none.
21 They put gall in my food
and gave me vinegar for my thirst.


NIV

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #2 on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 08:40:43 »

Offline phoebe

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #3 on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 09:39:04 »
The vinegar was mixed with gall, which is a type of drug/poison. I find it interesting that Scripture says:

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

After He drank the gall-laced vinegar, He died. So, it makes sense to me that it was poisonous. Not saying that is proof, but it is logical.


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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #3 on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 09:39:04 »

Mystery Man

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #4 on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 09:44:43 »
The vinegar was mixed with gall, which is a type of drug/poison. I find it interesting that Scripture says:

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

After He drank the gall-laced vinegar, He died. So, it makes sense to me that it was poisonous. Not saying that is proof, but it is logical.



It was just pure vinegar and nothing else.  It was a fulfilling of prophecy.

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #4 on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 09:44:43 »



Offline Jimbob

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #5 on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 09:59:05 »
The vinegar was mixed with gall, which is a type of drug/poison. I find it interesting that Scripture says:

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

After He drank the gall-laced vinegar, He died. So, it makes sense to me that it was poisonous. Not saying that is proof, but it is logical.


That's a logical fallacy known as "Post hoc ergo propter hoc."

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #5 on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 09:59:05 »

Offline phoebe

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #6 on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 11:36:48 »
The vinegar was mixed with gall, which is a type of drug/poison. I find it interesting that Scripture says:

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

After He drank the gall-laced vinegar, He died. So, it makes sense to me that it was poisonous. Not saying that is proof, but it is logical.


That's a logical fallacy known as "Post hoc ergo propter hoc."

I'm familiar with the terms. That doesn't mean it doesn't have some validity. It was written this way for a reason.

I don't think it should be brushed aside so quickly.

The vinegar was mixed with gall, which is a type of drug/poison. I find it interesting that Scripture says:

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

After He drank the gall-laced vinegar, He died. So, it makes sense to me that it was poisonous. Not saying that is proof, but it is logical.



It was just pure vinegar and nothing else.  It was a fulfilling of prophecy.

No, it wasn't "pure" vinegar. It was soured. Soldier's issue of spoiled wine. Given to help them with injuries, to relieve some of their pain. Like whiskey at the OK Corral. Or taken in large quantity to take one's own life. It was in accordance with Jewish custom. Spice mixed with myrrh in sufficient quantity to make a pain-killing/lethal drug.

I think the argument has enough validity to be considered.

larry2

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #7 on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 13:10:10 »
My understanding, though with no more scripture than has already been offered is that gall supposedly acted as an opiate, or relaxer and reliever of pain. The Lord denied it having came to suffer for the sins of the world. He didn't spill His blood as some claim, He pour it out for us; praise His holy name.

In Jesus' name - larry2

Offline phoebe

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #8 on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 13:12:05 »
My understanding, though with no more scripture than has already been offered is that gall supposedly acted as an opiate, or relaxer and reliever of pain. The Lord denied it having came to suffer for the sins of the world. He didn't spill His blood as some claim, He pour it out for us; praise His holy name.

In Jesus' name - larry2

Yes, and while Matthew, Mark and Luke don't, John records that he did take some when offered again.

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #8 on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 13:12:05 »

Offline Jimbob

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #9 on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 13:15:37 »
Do its effects really matter considering Matthew 27:34 (other than that its effects appear, as Larry2 pointed, to be why he refused to drink it)? 

"...they offered him wine to drink, mixed with gall, but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Mt. 27:34 ESV

Anywho, what you didn't drink can't have killed you.


Offline phoebe

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #10 on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 13:36:43 »
What about John's rendition that He did drink?

Mystery Man

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #11 on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 13:53:49 »
What about John's rendition that He did drink?


It says in John , it was just vinegar. John 19:29 & 30.   In verse 28 it states - "After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst"

Putting it upon the hyssop was to purge him - Psalm 51:7.  Which means to be freed from guilt.

hyssop was an arromatic herb

larry2

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #12 on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 14:09:23 »
Just a thought. Has it occured that since scripture would not contradict itself, there could be two different occurences when vinigar was offered? Once with gall and the next without?

In Jesus' name - larry2

Offline Jimbob

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #13 on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 14:14:37 »
It was offered twice.  The reference in John says that when we received it, he said, "It is finished."  "Received" however is open to interpretation, and doesn't entirely clear much up.

Mystery Man

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #14 on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 14:21:22 »
It was offered twice.  The reference in John says that when we received it, he said, "It is finished."  "Received" however is open to interpretation, and doesn't entirely clear much up.

Yes, it was offered to him twice.  The first time is recorded in Matthew27:34 , but he would not drink it.

Mark 15:36 is just vinegar

In John 19:30 it was just vinegar and he drank it

Offline mandalee65

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #15 on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 14:31:52 »
Is "gall" only in specific translations?

And how in the world do you sour vinegar? The stuff's already pretty sour to start with, but I thought it was supposed to last a loooooong time.

Just curious....

Offline kensington

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #16 on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 15:57:52 »
Actually, Jesus was only given drink the once... It was vinegar.  No drugs in it.  The two different quotations is simply because we have two different authors who wrote differently.

He was given sour vinegar or vinegar or wine with gall (bitter) in it.... which is all the same thing basically just differently described.  He tasted and refused.  It was given to him in mocking because he said "I thirst"...   It was a fullfilled prophesy. 

Jesus thirsted, and the guards mocking him gave him vinegar to drink.  They were not there to make crucifixion easier on them.  Water would have prolonged the crucifixion, and they didn't want that.  It was to add to his suffering, or so they thought.  But, since Jesus put Himself on the cross for us, they couldn't do anything to make it anything more or less than it already was.  The sinless Savior of the World, went to Calvary and died a death of shame that we might be lifted up in honor and forgiveness of sins. 


Offline Jimbob

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #17 on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 16:58:57 »
Kensington, he is offered a drink twice in Matthew's account.  Wine mixed with gall in v. 34, and vinegar in v. 48.

Offline phoebe

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #18 on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 17:28:04 »
Is "gall" only in specific translations?

And how in the world do you sour vinegar? The stuff's already pretty sour to start with, but I thought it was supposed to last a loooooong time.

Just curious....

The soured stuff was sour wine, i.e., vinegar. Wine-in-the-making-gone-wrong, gone bad. Not that nice stuff we put on our spinach or in our salad dressing. It can go bad in the process of making it.

My neighbor grows his own blackberries for the sole purpose of making blackberry wine. It's a process that takes time. Sometimes a batch goes bad in that process.

I guess instead of throwing it away, they gave it to the soldiers who, I'm sure, thought they were manly enough to handle the bitter stuff.

It is believed that gall comes from myrrh, and was added to the sour wine. Like licorice, a little is good, but a lot is not good.

Offline kensington

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #19 on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 17:43:15 »
Many scholars note that Matthew is a rewrite of what John had previously written... and that he may have misinterpreted the intent.  Luke and John are the most accurate statements of what happened, and they both say once.  It's likely that the two different verses intend one event.

John says he took it, and then it was finished, fulfilling prophesy.


Offline Elaine

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #20 on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 22:02:30 »
As the op wanted:  Do you think it was medicinal or was it a cruelty of the Romans?

If a man says I thirst and he is given vinegar doesn't that seem to be a torture?

Why do some say it was medicinal?? Because they do...

I just don't understand the intent or purpose of vinegar at the foot of the crosses ---long sticks with sponges... how awful.

Why?   Why not just plain old water for a dying man?   It makes me think there was a reason...more torture - or mercy because it was laced with something...I guess we'll never know...

HRoberson

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #21 on: Wed Mar 18, 2009 - 22:41:52 »
It is likely a sign of extreme divine displeasure and punishment - the entire wrath of God. In the midst of suffering, there will be no respite for you - none.

See also Jeremiah 8.14, 9.15, and 23.15 where such seems to be the coup d' gras of divine judgment.

From the hands of the Romans, it was intended likely to be more torture....."ah, at last some water to slake my thirst!........aahhggg, vinegar that dries my mouth like a parched lake bed!"
« Last Edit: Thu Mar 19, 2009 - 09:37:53 by HRoberson »

Mystery Man

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #22 on: Thu Mar 19, 2009 - 05:23:51 »
As the op wanted:  Do you think it was medicinal or was it a cruelty of the Romans?

If a man says I thirst and he is given vinegar doesn't that seem to be a torture?

Why do some say it was medicinal?? Because they do...

I just don't understand the intent or purpose of vinegar at the foot of the crosses ---long sticks with sponges... how awful.

Why?   Why not just plain old water for a dying man?   It makes me think there was a reason...more torture - or mercy because it was laced with something...I guess we'll never know...

As you realize there are a lot of hidden bits of information within the Word.   The vinegar and the hyssop that the spong of vinegar was put upon is one of these hidden messages. 

The hidden message goes beyone a fulfilling of the prophecy of the OT prophets.  Even though that is exactly what happened here.

When Jesus said it was finished, he meant what he said, right down to the smallest of details.

This has to do with -- "bitter/sweet .

I could go into great detail here.  But from my past experiences on this forum, it has not been shown that my time will be utilized best if I attempt to go in such detail.

However I will suggest a study in the OT about bitter and sweet.   I would also read Rev. 10:9

Offline mandalee65

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #23 on: Thu Mar 19, 2009 - 21:13:17 »
Thanks, Phoebe, for explaining that.

stuart shepherd

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #24 on: Sat Mar 21, 2009 - 19:38:00 »
At the last supper, Jesus said.....

Matthew 26:29 (New American Standard Bible)

 29"But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."

Vinegar is a product of the "fruit of the vine ".

Matthew 27:48 (New American Standard Bible)

 48Immediately one of them ran, and taking a sponge, he filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink.

Stuart Shepherd



Offline cunomor

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #25 on: Sat Apr 25, 2009 - 21:22:48 »
Regarding Mt 26:29, the key phrase is "with you" (his disciples). He didn't drink with them on the cross.

Four cups of wine are consumed in the Passover:

1st Cup of Sanctification
2nd Cup of Judgment
3rd Cup of Redemption (this is the cup Jesus offerd to his disciples as the first communion but apparently did not drink himself - until the cross)
4th Cup of Completion/Consummation -- This is the cup Jesus referred to in Mt 26:29.

Visionary

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #26 on: Thu Oct 14, 2010 - 23:52:49 »
They gave him wine vinegar and gall..."gall bladder" produces phlem.

They said, If you are the Christ come down from the cross...gall.

blituri

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #27 on: Sat Oct 16, 2010 - 22:01:52 »
Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you,
        that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses,
        and in the prophets, and in the psalms,
        concerning me.

On the cross:

John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished,
        that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
John 19:29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar:
        and they filled a spunge with vinegar,
        and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.

    Matt. 27:34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall:
             and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar,
        he said, It is finished:  (prophecy)
        and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

What was finished was the fulfilment of the LAST prophecy before His Death.

There are two prophecies:

Psa. 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint:
        my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
Psa. 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd;
    and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws;
    and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
Psa. 22:16 For dogs have compassed me:
        the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me:
        they pierced my hands and my feet.

Psa. 69:20 Reproach hath broken my heart;
        and I am full of heaviness:
        and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none;
        and for comforters, but I found none.
Psa. 69:21 They gave me also gall for my meat;
        and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
Psa. 69:22 Let their table become a snare before them:
        and that which should have been for their welfare,
        let it become a trap.

jfla

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #28 on: Sat Oct 23, 2010 - 20:19:42 »
No, it wasn't "pure" vinegar. It was soured.

Isn't vinegar by definition soured?

Quote
Soldier's issue of spoiled wine. Given to help them with injuries, to relieve some of their pain.

Even with my degree in biology, I don't see how vinegar, taken internally, could relieve pain.  Used externally on wounds it would act as an antiseptic since it is a mild acid.  But who worries about treating the wounds of someone who is being executed?

BTW: If the gall mentioned in the Psalms is the gall stored in the gall bladder, it is used to digest food.  Again it would not serve any physiological purpose for someone who is being executed.

Quote
Or taken in large quantity to take one's own life.

I seriously doubt that anyone could drink enough vinegar to be lethal.  You'd get sick from the taste first.

Quote
It was in accordance with Jewish custom. Spice mixed with myrrh in sufficient quantity to make a pain-killing/lethal drug.

Documentation?  Don't Jews generally frown on suicide since it deprives God of His rightful prerogative?

jfla

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Re: Why vinegar at the cross?
« Reply #29 on: Sat Oct 23, 2010 - 20:27:02 »
I guess instead of throwing it away, they gave it to the soldiers who, I'm sure, thought they were manly enough to handle the bitter stuff.

I don't drink so I don't know for sure, but does wine turned into vinegar have any alcohol left?  If not, why would soldiers want it?

And just how much wine would last long enough to go bad in the Mediterranean basin where potable water can be scarce?

 

     
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