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Author Topic: Wider Hope - Salvation  (Read 3220 times)

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James2018

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Wider Hope - Salvation
« on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 09:25:47 »
7-27-2018 11:20 am
This is an active research project.
We're rewriting John Sanders' list and definitions.
This is the definitive book on this topic.
We've already removed universal, unitarian, faith inclusive,
middle knowledge, final encounter part a., and special revelation part a. .
No Other name, An Investigation into the Destiny
of the Unevangelized, John Sanders


Restrictive Position
the gospel is revealed through human ministries,
necessity of the new birth in this life

Wider Hope Position

Special Revelation - the gospel can be revealed
or at least repeated in dreams, visions, near death, coma, etc.


Final Encounter - the gospel will be presented again at death
or at least the gospel will be presented to those
who have never heard the gospel


Middle Knowledge - final judgment is based upon the individual's knowledge
and what each individual would have believed in better circumstances


Faith Inclusive - final judgment is based upon the individual's subjective faith
in goodness, regardless of the individual's beliefs

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Middle Knowledge and Faith Inclusive can be excluded.
Biblical faith is objective, not subjective.
KJV For by grace are ye saved through faith
KJV faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God
KJV Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible,
by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

----------------------------

Special Revelation part b. is not special revelation.
It fits the current definition of Restrictive Position.

Final Encounter part b. is possible.

----------------------------

This topic has been an open research project for years.
Thank you for your sincerity and invaluable posts
and for the excellent monitors.

Biblical Position
the gospel is revealed through human ministries,
necessity of the new birth in this life,
wider hope for the unevangelized





.
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 27, 2018 - 10:21:33 by James2018 »

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Wider Hope - Salvation
« on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 09:25:47 »

James2018

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #1 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 09:45:22 »
Romans 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye,
but not to doubtful disputations.

Philippians 1:15-17
15 Some indeed preach Christ of envy and strive . . .
16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely . . .
17 But the other of love . . .
« Last Edit: Thu Jul 26, 2018 - 14:51:46 by James2018 »

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #1 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 09:45:22 »

James2018

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #2 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 09:47:48 »
1 Thessalonians 5:21  Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

« Last Edit: Tue Jul 24, 2018 - 15:05:46 by James2018 »

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #2 on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 09:47:48 »

James2018

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #3 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 09:25:42 »
Titus 3:15 All that are with me salute thee.
Greet them that love us in the faith.
Grace be with you all. Amen.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 24, 2018 - 15:06:01 by James2018 »

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #3 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 09:25:42 »

Offline notreligus

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #4 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 12:28:58 »
James 2018, thanks for the recommendation for reading.   I hope you don't mine my making a recommendation to you.   You may want to do more reading on the Apostle Paul and his ministry.   It's helpful to know to whom he was addressing in each epistle and the circumstances behind his particular writings.   Acts Chapter Fifteen is good for some background on Paul's disputes with the leaders of the Jerusalem Church.   In the epistles to the church at Thessalonica Paul's teachings and efforts to evangelize were challenged by unbelieving Jews, believing Jews (the circumcision), Greek pagans and the Romans.   Sometimes the Book of Romans is not understood to be an admonishment to both believing Jews and to Greek/Gentile converts that neither has a superior position in Christ.   We can note that Paul essentially called Peter a hypocrite in Galatians 2:11 because Peter had turned away from ministering to Gentiles and agreed with other Jerusalem Church leadership that Gentile converts had to be circumcised.

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #4 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 12:28:58 »



James2018

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #5 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 12:50:23 »
I've completed eighth year theology courses
at both Catholic and Baptist seminaries.

Let's assume we have each read the same books
or at least thought about the same things.

Restrictive or Wider Hope

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #5 on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 12:50:23 »

Offline Mrs Wheels

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #6 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 15:33:39 »
No Wider Hope Ye Must Be Born Again !!!
If there was wider hope then what's the point in all of this ?If we are all going to heaven then why create the devil ?

James2018

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #7 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 15:55:25 »
Some believe there is wider hope for those who have never heard.
Unitarians believe all faiths lead to the salvation of Jesus Christ.
Universalists believe all faiths lead God.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 19:19:21 by James2018 »

Offline Mrs Wheels

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #8 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 16:27:43 »
Doesn't The Bible says that His glory is in us and around us and that he gives everybody the chance to receive salvation?

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #8 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 16:27:43 »

James2018

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #9 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 16:36:47 »
KJV Holy Bible

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,


This verse is often quoted to support wider hope.

One idea is that God will send the gospel to those who want salvation. 
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 17:02:26 by James2018 »

James2018

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #10 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 16:55:01 »
I didn't know that was you posting.

Say hi to Joe.

Please tell him I have the new KCW F-45 Book for him.

It contains the New York Institute of Theology Book
and the Makahiya School of Martial Arts Book
with the KCW F-45 introduction.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #11 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 17:01:49 »
quote] Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,[/quote]

Titus 2:1 But SPEAK thou the things which become SOUND DOCTRINE:
Titus 2:2 THAT the aged men be sober, grave, temperate,
        sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
Titus 2:3 The aged women likewise,
        that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness,
        not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Titus 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober,
        To love their husbands, to love their children,
Titus 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good,
        obedient to their OWN husbands,
        that the WORD of God be not blasphemed.
Titus 2:6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
Titus 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works:
        in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
Titus 2:8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned;
        that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed,
        having no evil thing to say of you.
Titus 2:9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters,
        and to please them well in all things; not answering again;
Titus 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity;
        that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

FOR is enim meaning WHAT I MEAN IS DO these things BECAUSE

Titus 2:11 FOR the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us THAT,
        denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,
        we should live soberly, righteously, and godly,
        in this present world;
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope,
         and the glorious appearing
        of the great God AND our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 WHO gave himself for us,
        THAT he might redeem us from all iniquity,
        and purify unto himself a peculiar people,
        zealous of good works.

Offline Mrs Wheels

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #12 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 17:03:06 »
hi iv been checking this site with lily and she loves it

James2018

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #13 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 17:05:47 »
We've got to get your e-sword running so you can copy-paste scripture.

James2018

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #14 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 17:11:46 »
Doesn't The Bible says that His glory is in us and around us and that he gives everybody the chance to receive salvation?

Yes, you're right, and when you say the bible

I know exactly which bible you're talking about.

I direct readers who need a little reproof

and instruction on that point

to my other thread.

« Last Edit: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 19:21:06 by James2018 »

James2018

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #15 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 17:35:45 »
quote] Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Titus 2:1 But SPEAK thou the things which become SOUND DOCTRINE:
Titus 2:2 THAT the aged men be sober, grave, temperate,
        sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
Titus 2:3 The aged women likewise,
        that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness,
        not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Titus 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober,
        To love their husbands, to love their children,
Titus 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good,
        obedient to their OWN husbands,
        that the WORD of God be not blasphemed.
Titus 2:6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
Titus 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works:
        in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
Titus 2:8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned;
        that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed,
        having no evil thing to say of you.
Titus 2:9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters,
        and to please them well in all things; not answering again;
Titus 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity;
        that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

FOR is enim meaning WHAT I MEAN IS DO these things BECAUSE

Titus 2:11 FOR the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us THAT,
        denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,
        we should live soberly, righteously, and godly,
        in this present world;
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope,
         and the glorious appearing
        of the great God AND our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 WHO gave himself for us,
        THAT he might redeem us from all iniquity,
        and purify unto himself a peculiar people,
        zealous of good works.

Did you read Sander's book ?

It's the definitive text on this topic.

I've read 50 reviews.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 18:34:46 by James2018 »

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #16 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 17:45:55 »
What in the world is this thread about?

Generally, forums are for conversation.  I'm not sure what the original post is, but it doesn't look like the beginning of a conversation.  If you have a point to make, make it and other will come to agree or disagree with you.

James2018

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #17 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 17:51:50 »
#1. Restrictive Position
ye must be born again

#2. Wider Hope Position
theories of special revelation, final encounter, middle knowledge,
faith inclusive, unitarian, universal


#3  .  .  .  ?

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #18 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 17:56:42 »
What is your position?

James2018

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #19 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 18:05:59 »
I'm a soul winner. I quote scripture.

I think someone needs to refined the statements.



« Last Edit: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 19:21:55 by James2018 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #20 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 18:09:38 »
If you can't even tell me what you think, there's not a whole lot to discuss here.   ::aloneinclearlogic::

James2018

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #21 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 18:17:14 »
I was wondering if anyone has an additional theory

besides the ones outlined by John Sanders.

I categorized Unitarian and Universal with Wide Hope

because those theories are the widest hope possible.

 

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #22 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 18:39:32 »
#1. Restrictive Position
ye must be born again

#2. Wider Hope Position
theories of special revelation, final encounter, middle knowledge,
faith inclusive, unitarian, universal


#3  .  .  .  ?
not sure what you are seeking but ifn you are asking if there is another way to heaven other than being born agin then no there is not.

James2018

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #23 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 18:43:11 »
There are wider hope theories which are inclusive of the new birth.

Did you read John Sanders ?

I listed John Sanders' theories and added unitarian and universal theories

to the Wider Hope position, because they present the widest hope possible.

« Last Edit: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 18:57:23 by James2018 »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #24 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 18:58:20 »
No do not plan to either just not interested sorry

James2018

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #25 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 19:02:56 »
No do not plan to either just not interested sorry

Not interested in what, reading the book, or wider hope ?

Just asking.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 19:06:04 by James2018 »

James2018

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #26 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 19:13:38 »
The central critical issue in academic theology is final authority.
The questions of wider hope are the final questions of soteriology,
and the questions of final canonization are the final questions
of final authority.

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #27 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 19:47:25 »
the book

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #28 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 20:00:34 »
My reason why I am not interested in reading the book is because the bible clearly says one must be born again. What I understand is you want to show that is not the case because of what you have read in said book. That means that the bible is wrong (according to said book) if it teaches that the only way is to be born anew (and it says otherwise) and I stand strong in my belief that the bible is truly the word of God and I will take Gods word on this over any other.

James2018

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #29 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 21:53:08 »
There are wider hope theories inclusive of the new birth.
I could discuss them with you if you don't feel like reading.

Please spend a couple minutes in my other thread.
There is no such thing as the bible.



James2018

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #30 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 22:00:52 »
Maybe the list and definitions need to be refined.

Restrictive  -  necessity of the gospel, necessity of faith,

necessity of the new birth in this life 

Actually, all Wider Hope theories are Christ inclusive

except universal.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 22:30:45 by James2018 »

Offline soterion

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #31 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 22:41:12 »
Maybe the list and definitions need to be refined.

Restrictive  -  necessity of the gospel, necessity of faith,

necessity of the new birth in this life 

Actually, all Wider Hope theories are Christ inclusive

except universal.

I am curious to see what those "Wider Hope" theories are, but going by this definition of "Restrictive" I am definitely a promoter of the necessity of the gospel, of faith, and of the new birth in this life.

James2018

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #32 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 22:45:42 »
Special Revelation: God can send  the gospel through dreams or angles.

Final Encounter
: God will provide an opportunity at death.
 
Middle Knowledge: God will judge individuals according
to their knowledge and circumstances, relative to the saving faith
that they would have had in different circumstances.   
 
Faith Inclusive:

« Last Edit: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 23:19:49 by James2018 »

Offline soterion

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #33 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 23:13:05 »
Some believe there is wider hope for those who have never heard.
Unitarians believe all faiths lead to the salvation of Jesus Christ.
Universalists believe all faiths lead God.

Romans 10:11-15.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be put to shame. For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?
and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard?
and how shall they hear without a preacher?
and how shall they preach, except they be sent? even as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that bring glad tidings of good things!


People have to hear and believe the gospel to be saved. This passage stresses the absolute necessity of evangelism. Many passages stress the necessity of evangelism, such as the Great Commission passages; Jesus wants the gospel to go to all nations, to every creature (the whole creation), and to all the world (Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:15; Luke 24:47).

In addition, the gospel is carried by people and preached by people unto people. Just as God became a man to bring salvation to man, so man is the instrument God uses to take this gospel to others.

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Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« Reply #34 on: Tue Jul 17, 2018 - 08:34:11 »
I am locking this topic because it IMO violates rule 5 promotion of another religion.