Author Topic: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?  (Read 1670 times)

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Offline Reformer

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Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
« Reply #35 on: Fri Aug 19, 2022 - 13:58:50 »
THE FREE MAN & WORSHIP:

    It is utterly ridiculous to speak of leaving our classrooms to go “into the sanctuary to worship.” Worship in the new age is never defined as moving from one location to another. If we are not worshipping in the first room, it is unlikely the situation will improve by moving to the second room. For the committed believer, worship cannot be turned on and off at will. It is his whole life [see John 4:24 & Rom. 12:1].

Buff, The Free Man
« Last Edit: Fri Aug 19, 2022 - 15:17:41 by Reformer »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
« Reply #36 on: Sat Aug 20, 2022 - 07:05:20 »
   Even you, Texas Legend, are enslaved if your Christian relationship is with a denomination or church that compels—or strongly expects—you to adopt their sectarian agenda or be disciplined or excommunicated. That's the kind of relationship I had decades ago, but now I'm a free man in Christ Jesus! No more shackles! No more "forced labor!"
Most of us choose to associate with those who hold similar theological views.  How deeply committed each individual is to those similar views is something else entirely.  It seems to me that you have simply limited theologically even more those with whom you choose to associate; and you are calling that being a free man.

I could be mistaken about what you are trying to promote as a reformation, but I think it is essentially the same as the basis for the beginnings of the restoration movement, namely, getting rid of all the man-made creeds and returning to the scriptures as the authority for faith. I am a proponent of where we in the restoration movement fundamentally are theologically, but I also can see that the "restoration" as originally proposed did not happen.

Offline GB

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Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
« Reply #37 on: Sat Aug 20, 2022 - 10:52:47 »
I see more people walking away from Churches to be free of religion altogether, than people walking away to seek a higher road.

Amen, as it is written "For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written."

"Good" that they are leaving the religions of this world, and their philosophies and traditions of man, and their man made Shrines of Worship. Bad because they believe these religions and their preachers are representatives of the One Truth God.

At some point everyone will know.

Therefore we all should "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities."






Offline Reformer

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Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
« Reply #38 on: Sat Aug 20, 2022 - 14:18:11 »
4WD:

   Regarding your Reply #36, I was once a proponent of the Restoration Movement, which Thomas and Alexander Campbell were supposed to have initiated. However, they did not propose a restoration, as such; instead, they authored a reformation. After they passed on, the reformation movement they introduced to a divided Christendom began to fall apart and religious parties of different sorts replaced it. And that's where we are today.

    At one time, a couple of decades ago, I possessed every volume of everything Campbell published. A few years ago, I cleaned out my Library and sold every volume of Campbell's Christian Baptist and Millennial Harbinger. He was one wise man indeed! I visited his gravesite in Berkely, West Virginia in the 60s.

    It is sad, very sad, that this great reformer's reformational efforts have been laid upon the shelf and almost forgotten by those of us who came after him. As he was dying, he quoted the Lord's Prayer and then breathed his last.

Buff

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Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
« Reply #38 on: Sat Aug 20, 2022 - 14:18:11 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
« Reply #39 on: Sat Aug 20, 2022 - 20:13:13 »
I have said before that I perceive that you were once hurt very badly by some probably not very good elders in one or more churches that you served.  I could be wrong, but it certainly seems that way to me. 
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 20, 2022 - 20:29:34 by 4WD »

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Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
« Reply #39 on: Sat Aug 20, 2022 - 20:13:13 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
« Reply #40 on: Sat Aug 20, 2022 - 20:16:42 »
Regarding your Reply #36, I was once a proponent of the Restoration Movement, which Thomas and Alexander Campbell were supposed to have initiated. However, they did not propose a restoration, as such; instead, they authored a reformation.
I don't agree with your assessment of reformation not restoration.  But I will just leave it at that.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
« Reply #41 on: Sat Aug 20, 2022 - 20:28:47 »
I see more people walking away from Churches to be free of religion altogether, than people walking away to seek a higher road.
If that is so, then they are being deceived.  Leftism, which is the driving force for those walking away today, is itself a religion.

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Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
« Reply #42 on: Sun Aug 21, 2022 - 19:13:41 »
Texas Legend:

"We are slaves of God."

    There is no argument here. We are voluntarily slaves or servants of God and should "live as people who are free," says Peter in I Peter 2:16, as you noted. Free from what? Free from anything that enslaves. Sectarianism once enslaved me. Partisan indoctrination enslaves many of us who should be free in Christ.

   Even you, Texas Legend, are enslaved if your Christian relationship is with a denomination or church that compels—or strongly expects—you to adopt their sectarian agenda or be disciplined or excommunicated. That's the kind of relationship I had decades ago, but now I'm a free man in Christ Jesus! No more shackles! No more "forced labor!"

My church congregation compels things from the pulpit like telling others about Jesus.  Very sectarian agenda right there. 

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Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
« Reply #43 on: Sun Aug 21, 2022 - 19:14:59 »
4WD:

   Regarding your Reply #36, I was once a proponent of the Restoration Movement, which Thomas and Alexander Campbell were supposed to have initiated. However, they did not propose a restoration, as such; instead, they authored a reformation. After they passed on, the reformation movement they introduced to a divided Christendom began to fall apart and religious parties of different sorts replaced it. And that's where we are today.

    At one time, a couple of decades ago, I possessed every volume of everything Campbell published. A few years ago, I cleaned out my Library and sold every volume of Campbell's Christian Baptist and Millennial Harbinger. He was one wise man indeed! I visited his gravesite in Berkely, West Virginia in the 60s.

    It is sad, very sad, that this great reformer's reformational efforts have been laid upon the shelf and almost forgotten by those of us who came after him. As he was dying, he quoted the Lord's Prayer and then breathed his last.

Buff

This "great reformer" that you mention was a divider.  Perhaps that wasn't his intention, but that was the result of his "reform."

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Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
« Reply #43 on: Sun Aug 21, 2022 - 19:14:59 »

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Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
« Reply #44 on: Sun Aug 21, 2022 - 19:17:53 »
I have said before that I perceive that you were once hurt very badly by some probably not very good elders in one or more churches that you served.  I could be wrong, but it certainly seems that way to me.

I agree.  And using that bad experience to paint the rest of churches with a similar structure with a very broad brush.

It's the hearts of people that is the problem, not the external things.  Changing external things like organization, for example, into house churches doesn't remove problems.  The problem is still people.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
« Reply #45 on: Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 06:15:06 »
This "great reformer" that you mention was a divider.  Perhaps that wasn't his intention, but that was the result of his "reform."
Well yes, but in that same way you could call the apostle Paul a divider.  But as I noted above, the Restoration Movement (RM) was not an intended reformation so much as a restoration.  The intention was to get rid of all the man-made creeds that appeared to be the major dividing issues for the various denominations.  While it was well intentioned, it wasn't widely well received.  I think the reason for that was that the divisions were not so much the result of creeds, per se, as it was the result of different interpretations of Scripture; that prevails to this day and is not likely to change.

All of that aside, I tend to be a supporter of the RM because I tend to believe it comes closest to accurate interpretation of Scripture.

Offline Reformer

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Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
« Reply #46 on: Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 12:24:16 »
Texas Dissenter:

"This 'great reformer' [Alexander Campbell] that you mention was a divider."

You mean a divider like Calvin?

Arizona Dissenter 

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Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
« Reply #47 on: Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 12:41:38 »
MORE FROM "YOURS TRULY"—THE FREE MAN:

    The clergy person must go! His position is a cancer in the body of believers, preventing the various parts from functioning as God intended. The divine testimony is silent about our modern-day “pastors” and “pulpit ministers,” except they are referred to as hirelings [John 10:11-13]. They need to be dismissed and encouraged to find a job—or adopt evangelism, taking the Good News to the unsaved, whereby they would naturally be financially supported.
 
    Evangelical church leaders and Elders should cease accentuating extraneous issues such as "The Rapture," "The Battle of Armageddon," The Thousand-Year Earthly Reign [which has been in effect for 2,000 years], Middle East Israel, and other doctrinal “supplements” and start pointing the unsaved to Jesus.

    The innumerable magazines and books relating to these issues are causing confusion among the uncommitted and frustrating those who are reaching for a higher level of spiritual curriculum. They hunger for meat but are fed milk.
 
    These changes are not likely to come about overnight, for they did not develop overnight. Somewhere along the trail, change will come. The mood and the times are right for it. May God grant us wisdom as we make preparations.

Buff
« Last Edit: Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 13:01:40 by Reformer »

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Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
« Reply #48 on: Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 12:42:09 »
Texas Dissenter:

"This 'great reformer' [Alexander Campbell] that you mention was a divider."

You mean a divider like Calvin?

Arizona Dissenter 

I don't claim to revere Calvin.  So sure, he was a divider.  Campbell started his movement trying to get people to divide out of the groups they were in.  He's a divider straight up.

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Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
« Reply #49 on: Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 12:44:42 »
MORE FROM "YOURS TRULY"—THE FREE MAN:

    The clergy person must go! His position is a cancer in the body of believers, preventing the various parts from functioning as God intended. The divine testimony is silent about our modern-day “pastors” and “pulpit ministers,” except they are referred to as hirelings [John 10:11-13]. They need to be dismissed and encouraged to find a job—or adopt evangelism, taking the Good News to the unsaved, whereby he would naturally be financially supported.
 
    Evangelical church leaders and Elders should cease accentuating extraneous issues such as "The Rapture," "The Battle of Armageddon," The Thousand-Year Earthly Reign [which has been in effect for 2,000 years], Middle East Israel, and other doctrinal “supplements” and start pointing the unsaved to Jesus.

    The innumerable magazines and books relating to these issues are causing confusion among the uncommitted and frustrating those who are reaching for a higher level of spiritual curriculum. They hunger for meat but are fed milk.
 
    These changes are not likely to come about overnight, for they did not develop overnight. Somewhere along the trail, change will come. The mood and the times are right for it. May God grant us wisdom as we make preparations.

Buff

More overly broad statements and rhetoric focused on externals rather than internals.  You aren't a "free man" when you are still in bondage to your past traumas.

Signed,

The Man With More Freedom than "The Free Man."

Offline Reformer

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Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
« Reply #50 on: Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 12:47:58 »
4WD:

    "...the Restoration Movement (RM) was not an intended reformation so much as a restoration."

    Wrong! The Campbells and others like them always referred to their ministries and/or efforts as reformation, never restoration.

Buff

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Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
« Reply #51 on: Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 12:49:58 »
4WD:

    "...the Restoration Movement (RM) was not an intended reformation so much as a restoration."

    Wrong! The Campbells and others like them always referred to their ministries and/or efforts as reformation, never restoration.

Buff

They ended up restoring a capella music.   rofl

Texas "SuperFree" Conservative.

Offline Reformer

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Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
« Reply #52 on: Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 12:57:44 »
Texas Bondage:

    "More overly broad statements and rhetoric focused on externals rather than internals. You aren't a 'free man' when you are still in bondage to your past traumas."

    Give me something accurate to chew on instead of muddying the water with tiny stones and marbles. I desire substance, not insignificance.

Arizona Free man

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Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
« Reply #53 on: Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 13:09:27 »
Texas Bondage:

    "More overly broad statements and rhetoric focused on externals rather than internals. You aren't a 'free man' when you are still in bondage to your past traumas."

    Give me something accurate to chew on instead of muddying the water with tiny stones and marbles. I desire substance, not insignificance.

Arizona Free man

It's obvious that like 4WD said, you were treated poorly by some elders in your ministry period.   What I said was 100% accurate.  When you post substance instead of a focus on external things, we can talk about substance.

SuperFree

Offline Reformer

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Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
« Reply #54 on: Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 13:14:08 »
Texas Radical:

    Let it be known that Calvin "started his movement trying to get people to divide out of the groups they were in. He's a divider straight up."

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Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
« Reply #55 on: Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 13:27:05 »
Texas Super Free:

    "It's obvious that like 4WD said, you were treated poorly by some elders in your ministry period.   What I said was 100% accurate. When you post substance instead of a focus on external things, we can talk about substance."

    Your apparent supernatural gift of discernment is invalid in my neck of the woods. If you know that much about my personal history, tell me the name of my first dog. Plus, tell me about my friend who died while he was drinking milk.

    But let me help you. My first dog's name was "Trigger." I named him after Roy Rogers horse. My friend passed on while drinking milk because the cow fell on him.

    Now since you could not discern these bits of history in advance, I consider you to be a counterfeit prophet.

Arizona Super True
« Last Edit: Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 13:29:20 by Reformer »

Offline DaveW

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Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
« Reply #56 on: Tue Aug 23, 2022 - 06:47:22 »
Leftism, which is the driving force for those walking away today, is itself a religion.
It most certainly is. A very insidious one at that.