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Christian Interests => Theology Forum => Topic started by: Reformer on Mon Aug 15, 2022 - 16:11:04

Title: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Reformer on Mon Aug 15, 2022 - 16:11:04
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_______________
 
Will Reformation Solve Our
Divisive Nature?

    Yes and No. Let me start by inquiring, Considering the rampant division within the Christian community, is reformation likely to occur? Possibly, but change will not come easily. The “chief priests and teachers of the law,” or most of today’s clergy and religious leaders, will oppose reformational efforts. They will try to persuade their followers to ask for the status quo and put reformation to death.

    It was the clergy who “persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and to have Jesus executed” [Matt. 27:20]. They refused change and killed the world’s greatest reformer. They executed the Prince of Peace by nailing Him to a Roman tree. They were more willing to “bosom-buddy” a murderer than to see their sects and denominations undergo reform. A repeat today would not alter the scene.

    Most will not struggle for reform. Only the free man will opt for reform. He must be free from anything that enslaves. He is not free if he is a party man. If he has yielded his will to some denomination or cult, he is enslaved, for he is bound to uphold his party’s creeds, promote its philosophies, and fight for its growth and survival. Should he waver a little to the right or lean a little to the left, he is soon called upon the partisan carpet and told to shape up or ship out.

    If he refuses to shape up or line up with the party’s shibboleths, he will soon find himself on the outside looking in. But this is the best thing that could happen to him! For the first time, he would meet freedom face-to-face. He could then declare with the apostle Paul, “Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a servant to everyone, to win as many as possible” [I Cor. 9:19]. 

    It is not easy to free oneself from all partisan entanglements? I know, “been there, done that.” We can serve others better when we are free of all partisan fetters, and that is because we don’t have to look over our shoulders to see if our party’s chieftains are looking our way.

    The free man does not nor cannot represent any church, faction, denomination, or sect. He is God’s representative. He answers only to his Lord, not to the “chief priests and teachers of the law.” He has no lords, popes, or masters to whom he must give account. He will, however, be open to the persuasion of wise qualified shepherds or overseers and submit to their leadership.
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: 4WD on Mon Aug 15, 2022 - 16:50:08
Reformation of what?
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Texas Conservative on Mon Aug 15, 2022 - 17:02:38
Focusing on external things will not change anything. 

The "free man's" poop stinks the same as any other man. 

The "free man" gives lip service to submission to elders in the church.  If submitting to elders, would not have to give them an account in submission?
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Reformer on Mon Aug 15, 2022 - 21:48:00
4WD:

"Reformation of what?"

    The contents answer your question, brother. But I'll help you a little more. The religious establishment and modern-day Christianity are indeed in need of reforming.

Buff
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Reformer on Mon Aug 15, 2022 - 21:54:12
Texas Dude:

"The 'free man's' poop stinks the same as any other man."

Not necessarily factual, brother. Instead of using BRUT, he consumes it!

Arizona Dude
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Reformer on Mon Aug 15, 2022 - 22:26:33
MORE ON THE FREE MAN:

    He is bold but not violent, firm but not rude, outspoken but not mouthy. The free man will be compassionate and loving. He will always remember that a man called Jesus transformed the world without throwing a rock, burning a building, drawing a sword, or brainwashing weak and innocent minds.

    This man Jesus changed the world by the simple act of persuasive teaching. There will never be another like Him. Praise His Holy Name!

Buff
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Mon Aug 15, 2022 - 22:45:52
The religious establishment here in America is a dead man walking.  The youth are not joining; they are being educated against religion.  Society is openly baring its fangs at the very existence of religion.

Is reformation a realistic goal?  I think whatever doctrinal differences exist may become moot in the face of a common enemy intent on their extinction.  Survival may be a better goal.

Jarrod
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Texas Conservative on Tue Aug 16, 2022 - 08:42:45
Texas Dude:

"The 'free man's' poop stinks the same as any other man."

Not necessarily factual, brother. Instead of using BRUT, he consumes it!

Arizona Dude

The "free man" is just greater division.  Period.
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Reformer on Tue Aug 16, 2022 - 13:18:56
Jarrod:

    "The religious establishment here in America is a dead man walking.  The youth are not joining; they are being educated against religion.  Society is openly baring its fangs at the very existence of religion.

Is reformation a realistic goal?  I think whatever doctrinal differences exist may become moot in the face of a common enemy intent on their extinction.  Survival may be a better goal."


Truer words were never spoken through false teeth!

Thank you, brother,

Buff
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Reformer on Tue Aug 16, 2022 - 13:23:46
Texas Senator:

"The 'free man' is just greater division. Period."

"Hey, apostle Paul! Did you hear what that man said?"

Arizona Senator
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Reformer on Tue Aug 16, 2022 - 13:27:44
ANOTHER SYMPTOM OF THE FREE MAN:

    We are not free if we refuse to listen to and take counsel from others whose wisdom is on a higher level than ours. Listening to and accepting counsel from others is not the same as being dictated to by the “chief priests and elders.” Submission to the latter will enslave us. Listening to the former will make us wiser.

Buff
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Texas Conservative on Tue Aug 16, 2022 - 14:12:38
ANOTHER SYMPTOM OF THE FREE MAN:

    We are not free if we refuse to listen to and take counsel from others whose wisdom is on a higher level than ours. Listening to and accepting counsel from others is not the same as being dictated to by the “chief priests and elders.” Submission to the latter will enslave us. Listening to the former will make us wiser.

Buff

As the resident board genius, Chief Justice, and board "former," it would be wise to listen to and accept counsel from yours truly.   ::preachit::
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Alan on Tue Aug 16, 2022 - 14:40:52
I see more people walking away from Churches to be free of religion altogether, than people walking away to seek a higher road.
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Reformer on Tue Aug 16, 2022 - 18:24:15
Texas Chief Justice:

   Okay, let's set up an appointment date so that I can "listen to and accept counsel from yours truly." Followed by some kind of therapy medication.

Arizona Chief Justice
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Reformer on Tue Aug 16, 2022 - 18:26:58
Alan:

    You're probably correct, namely, "I see more people walking away from Churches to be free of religion altogether, than people walking away to seek a higher road."

Buff
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Texas Conservative on Tue Aug 16, 2022 - 18:55:23
Ha!
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Aug 16, 2022 - 20:49:50
,,,some kind of therapy medication.
Or radiation, probably.

::peeking::
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Reformer on Tue Aug 16, 2022 - 23:51:14
Jarrod:

But let's make it spiritual radiation!

Buff
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: 4WD on Wed Aug 17, 2022 - 06:54:39
People, for the most part today, are not walking away from church; they have never been there to begin with. If there is a problem with church today, I believe that it is because there is no one out on the street calling for people to come to God. I am as guilty, or more so, of that as anyone.  And the "home church" does not solve that problem.  There just isn't much evangelism taking place in today's churches. I do not see any sort of "reformation" solving that problem.  It is not so much what the church today is doing wrong; rather it is what the church today is not doing at all.  There may be several reasons for that, but one, I believe, is the modern understanding of "the separation between church and state".  That is a disaster.
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: DaveW on Wed Aug 17, 2022 - 09:19:37
"Free Man" is a fantasy.  As a Jewish prophet once said:  "Ya gotta serve somebody. Now it might be the devil or it might be the Lord; But you're gonna have to serve somebody."
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: 4WD on Wed Aug 17, 2022 - 11:44:38
Romans 6:15-23 pretty much debunks the "free man" ideas.  In fact, Paul there says that we should be "slaves", slaves to righteousness that is.
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Texas Conservative on Wed Aug 17, 2022 - 12:10:37
"Free Man" is a fantasy.  As a Jewish prophet once said:  "Ya gotta serve somebody. Now it might be the devil or it might be the Lord; But you're gonna have to serve somebody."

I believe the "Free Man" serves himself.
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Reformer on Wed Aug 17, 2022 - 13:35:23
4WD:

    "Romans 6:15-23 pretty much debunks the 'free man' ideas.  In fact, Paul there says that we should be 'slaves,' slaves to righteousness that is."

    Your argument is not with me, it's with Paul. “Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a servant to everyone, to win as many as possible” [I Cor. 9:19].

"For why should my liberty [freedom] be determined by someone else's conscience?" [I Cor. 10:29].

"For you were called to freedom, brothers" [Gal. 5:13].
   
    My point is that although we are free in Christ, yet we are His servants or slaves. Spiritual, heavenly slavery or servanthood is a holy relationship, but human slavery to the "powers that be," whether to religious establishments or man's religious ventures, are unholy.

Buff
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Reformer on Wed Aug 17, 2022 - 13:50:19
ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS ON THE FREE MAN:

    Let me affirm I am not bitter toward those who do not share my views on reform. They are no less my brothers because they are not as caught up in reformation as I am. My primary ministry is reformation. This is where the good Lord has planted me. And this is where I must take root and grow.

    I dare not reject the brother whose ministry is in some other field or area of life, or whose divine assignment differs from mine. I know only that I must work for reform. And I cannot work for reform by rejecting those who do not agree with my efforts. But I have and will reject the system that has subjugated us.
 
    My strong belief is that modern-day Christianity ought to surrender all party labels, names, and partisan practices. The denominating of separatist Christian groups should cease. We must recognize that wherever God has a child, we have a brother or a sister. We have no half-brothers or half-sisters in the Lord. We are all blood fellows of Jesus the Lamb.

Buff 
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: 4WD on Wed Aug 17, 2022 - 15:09:00
My point is that although we are free in Christ, yet we are His servants or slaves. Spiritual, heavenly slavery or servanthood is a holy relationship, but human slavery to the "powers that be," whether to religious establishments or man's religious ventures, are unholy.
I think that you are playing just a bit with words.  I still do not know, specifically, what reformation you are proposing.

And I have no argument with Paul, I simply quoted his words to you.
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Reformer on Wed Aug 17, 2022 - 19:30:17
4WD:

    "I think that you are playing just a bit with words.  I still do not know, specifically, what reformation you are proposing."

    Come on, brother! Yes, we're both Senior adults, but neither of us is a Senior intellectually and observably.

Kindly,

Buff
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: RB on Thu Aug 18, 2022 - 04:49:09
Quote
1st Corinthians 7:22~"For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant."
In one sense, I'm the Lord's freeman, and answer only to him~yet, every Christian is a servant to those in Christ. If we refuse to be so, then we have no part with Christ.
Quote
John 13:5-17~"After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter. Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean. So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you? Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
No man lives unto himself or dieth unto himself, we were put here to be servants to our wives, children, and to all men, especially those of the household of faith~even though we may be master to all of them.

This being said, I'm no servant to men who desire to make me do and say what they think I should do and say, and we cannot be bought with money in order for us to say and do those things before they will accept us into their inner circle.  Yet, I'm willing to be a godly servant to all men, even to men who oppose themselves, peradventure God may bring them to repentance.
Quote
2nd Timothy 2:24-26~"And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will."
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Texas Conservative on Thu Aug 18, 2022 - 07:59:18
This independent believer thing ("free man") is not scriptural.

1 Corinthians 7:22 is addressing those called as slaves are now free in Christ.  Those called while being free are now slaves of Christ.

We are to submit to elders of the church.  "Those who rule well." 

Titus 3:1-2

Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.[/i]

1 Timothy 5:

17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

18 For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.[/i]
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Reformer on Thu Aug 18, 2022 - 13:07:30
Texas Board Genius:

"This independent believer thing ('free man') is not scriptural."

    Paul"Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as bondservants of God" [Gal. 2:16].

Arizona Board Genius
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Reformer on Thu Aug 18, 2022 - 13:17:37
THE FREE MAN WILL BE NON-PARTISAN:

   The free man will not draw party lines. If Jesus did not erect the barrier that keeps our brothers out, dismantle it. Remove the notion that salvation is found only in our association with churches or denominations. Patterns and parties cannot save. Jesus is our Pattern, our Plan, and our Salvation. Churchitis or sectarianism is the wrong answer to the world’s problems. If a solution is ever found, the world must look to Jesus—not to divisive churches.
 
    Purge all ritualism and formalism from our meetings and get back to the simple, informal, mutual method of sharing with and edifying one another. Our open class meetings resemble the open meetings of the early believers, for everyone is encouraged to participate. Participation makes for spiritual growth. Pewwarming makes for spiritual retreat.

Buff
 
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: DaveW on Thu Aug 18, 2022 - 13:23:18
THE FREE MAN WILL BE NON-PARTISAN:

   The free man will not draw party lines. If Jesus did not erect the barrier that keeps our brothers out, dismantle it. Remove the notion that salvation is found only in our association with churches or denominations. Patterns and parties cannot save. Jesus is our Pattern, our Plan, and our Salvation. Churchitis or sectarianism is the wrong answer to the world’s problems. If a solution is ever found, the world must look to Jesus—not to divisive churches.
 
    Purge all ritualism and formalism from our meetings and get back to the simple, informal, mutual method of sharing with and edifying one another. Our open class meetings resemble the open meetings of the early believers, for everyone is encouraged to participate. Participation makes for spiritual growth. Pewwarming makes for spiritual retreat.
It is not necessarily sectarian to believe you figured out the "program" to get saved.  Especially when you realize that you got something wrong and your own group is condemned to destruction with everyone else.
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Reformer on Thu Aug 18, 2022 - 13:42:23
DaveW:

    Please enlarge upon what you're saying in Reply #30. Or perhaps a clarification will help.

Thanks,

Buff
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Texas Conservative on Fri Aug 19, 2022 - 06:51:36
Texas Board Genius:

"This independent believer thing ('free man') is not scriptural."

    Paul"Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as bondservants of God" [Gal. 2:16].

Arizona Board Genius

1.  You used the wrong reference for this.  It is 1 Peter 2:16
2.  The end of the verse refutes your point.  We are slaves of God.
3.  To use this verse the way you do is to use the verse out of context.  13-15 preceding this and 17 to the rest of the chapter talk about submission even to harsh rules, etc.

13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people.

17 Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.

18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19 For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God. 20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: DaveW on Fri Aug 19, 2022 - 11:14:21
DaveW:
    Please enlarge upon what you're saying in Reply #30. Or perhaps a clarification will help.
Thanks,
Buff
Let me give an example.  Near where I grew up there was a small bible store ran by a guy, ordained as an Assy of God pastor.  He did fill in work when needed for various congregations in the area, even if they were not A/G.  One day a person comes in from a "Jesus Only" denomination which took the "one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5) to mean that if you got the formula wrong, you were toast since it could not be re-done.  At some point he realized "Jesus" is a modern creation, and that His actual name was Yeshua.  Which meant his entire denomination was going to hell because they used the wrong name.

I find nothing exclusive or sectarian in that approach. It is excluding themselves as much as it is anyone else.
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Reformer on Fri Aug 19, 2022 - 13:49:48
Texas Legend:

"We are slaves of God."

    There is no argument here. We are voluntarily slaves or servants of God and should "live as people who are free," says Peter in I Peter 2:16, as you noted. Free from what? Free from anything that enslaves. Sectarianism once enslaved me. Partisan indoctrination enslaves many of us who should be free in Christ.

   Even you, Texas Legend, are enslaved if your Christian relationship is with a denomination or church that compels—or strongly expects—you to adopt their sectarian agenda or be disciplined or excommunicated. That's the kind of relationship I had decades ago, but now I'm a free man in Christ Jesus! No more shackles! No more "forced labor!"

Arizona Legend
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Reformer on Fri Aug 19, 2022 - 13:58:50
THE FREE MAN & WORSHIP:

    It is utterly ridiculous to speak of leaving our classrooms to go “into the sanctuary to worship.” Worship in the new age is never defined as moving from one location to another. If we are not worshipping in the first room, it is unlikely the situation will improve by moving to the second room. For the committed believer, worship cannot be turned on and off at will. It is his whole life [see John 4:24 & Rom. 12:1].

Buff, The Free Man
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: 4WD on Sat Aug 20, 2022 - 07:05:20
   Even you, Texas Legend, are enslaved if your Christian relationship is with a denomination or church that compels—or strongly expects—you to adopt their sectarian agenda or be disciplined or excommunicated. That's the kind of relationship I had decades ago, but now I'm a free man in Christ Jesus! No more shackles! No more "forced labor!"
Most of us choose to associate with those who hold similar theological views.  How deeply committed each individual is to those similar views is something else entirely.  It seems to me that you have simply limited theologically even more those with whom you choose to associate; and you are calling that being a free man.

I could be mistaken about what you are trying to promote as a reformation, but I think it is essentially the same as the basis for the beginnings of the restoration movement, namely, getting rid of all the man-made creeds and returning to the scriptures as the authority for faith. I am a proponent of where we in the restoration movement fundamentally are theologically, but I also can see that the "restoration" as originally proposed did not happen.
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: GB on Sat Aug 20, 2022 - 10:52:47
I see more people walking away from Churches to be free of religion altogether, than people walking away to seek a higher road.

Amen, as it is written "For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written."

"Good" that they are leaving the religions of this world, and their philosophies and traditions of man, and their man made Shrines of Worship. Bad because they believe these religions and their preachers are representatives of the One Truth God.

At some point everyone will know.

Therefore we all should "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities."





Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Reformer on Sat Aug 20, 2022 - 14:18:11
4WD:

   Regarding your Reply #36, I was once a proponent of the Restoration Movement, which Thomas and Alexander Campbell were supposed to have initiated. However, they did not propose a restoration, as such; instead, they authored a reformation. After they passed on, the reformation movement they introduced to a divided Christendom began to fall apart and religious parties of different sorts replaced it. And that's where we are today.

    At one time, a couple of decades ago, I possessed every volume of everything Campbell published. A few years ago, I cleaned out my Library and sold every volume of Campbell's Christian Baptist and Millennial Harbinger. He was one wise man indeed! I visited his gravesite in Berkely, West Virginia in the 60s.

    It is sad, very sad, that this great reformer's reformational efforts have been laid upon the shelf and almost forgotten by those of us who came after him. As he was dying, he quoted the Lord's Prayer and then breathed his last.

Buff
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: 4WD on Sat Aug 20, 2022 - 20:13:13
I have said before that I perceive that you were once hurt very badly by some probably not very good elders in one or more churches that you served.  I could be wrong, but it certainly seems that way to me. 
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: 4WD on Sat Aug 20, 2022 - 20:16:42
Regarding your Reply #36, I was once a proponent of the Restoration Movement, which Thomas and Alexander Campbell were supposed to have initiated. However, they did not propose a restoration, as such; instead, they authored a reformation.
I don't agree with your assessment of reformation not restoration.  But I will just leave it at that.
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: 4WD on Sat Aug 20, 2022 - 20:28:47
I see more people walking away from Churches to be free of religion altogether, than people walking away to seek a higher road.
If that is so, then they are being deceived.  Leftism, which is the driving force for those walking away today, is itself a religion.
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Texas Conservative on Sun Aug 21, 2022 - 19:13:41
Texas Legend:

"We are slaves of God."

    There is no argument here. We are voluntarily slaves or servants of God and should "live as people who are free," says Peter in I Peter 2:16, as you noted. Free from what? Free from anything that enslaves. Sectarianism once enslaved me. Partisan indoctrination enslaves many of us who should be free in Christ.

   Even you, Texas Legend, are enslaved if your Christian relationship is with a denomination or church that compels—or strongly expects—you to adopt their sectarian agenda or be disciplined or excommunicated. That's the kind of relationship I had decades ago, but now I'm a free man in Christ Jesus! No more shackles! No more "forced labor!"

My church congregation compels things from the pulpit like telling others about Jesus.  Very sectarian agenda right there. 
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Texas Conservative on Sun Aug 21, 2022 - 19:14:59
4WD:

   Regarding your Reply #36, I was once a proponent of the Restoration Movement, which Thomas and Alexander Campbell were supposed to have initiated. However, they did not propose a restoration, as such; instead, they authored a reformation. After they passed on, the reformation movement they introduced to a divided Christendom began to fall apart and religious parties of different sorts replaced it. And that's where we are today.

    At one time, a couple of decades ago, I possessed every volume of everything Campbell published. A few years ago, I cleaned out my Library and sold every volume of Campbell's Christian Baptist and Millennial Harbinger. He was one wise man indeed! I visited his gravesite in Berkely, West Virginia in the 60s.

    It is sad, very sad, that this great reformer's reformational efforts have been laid upon the shelf and almost forgotten by those of us who came after him. As he was dying, he quoted the Lord's Prayer and then breathed his last.

Buff

This "great reformer" that you mention was a divider.  Perhaps that wasn't his intention, but that was the result of his "reform."
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Texas Conservative on Sun Aug 21, 2022 - 19:17:53
I have said before that I perceive that you were once hurt very badly by some probably not very good elders in one or more churches that you served.  I could be wrong, but it certainly seems that way to me.

I agree.  And using that bad experience to paint the rest of churches with a similar structure with a very broad brush.

It's the hearts of people that is the problem, not the external things.  Changing external things like organization, for example, into house churches doesn't remove problems.  The problem is still people.
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: 4WD on Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 06:15:06
This "great reformer" that you mention was a divider.  Perhaps that wasn't his intention, but that was the result of his "reform."
Well yes, but in that same way you could call the apostle Paul a divider.  But as I noted above, the Restoration Movement (RM) was not an intended reformation so much as a restoration.  The intention was to get rid of all the man-made creeds that appeared to be the major dividing issues for the various denominations.  While it was well intentioned, it wasn't widely well received.  I think the reason for that was that the divisions were not so much the result of creeds, per se, as it was the result of different interpretations of Scripture; that prevails to this day and is not likely to change.

All of that aside, I tend to be a supporter of the RM because I tend to believe it comes closest to accurate interpretation of Scripture.
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Reformer on Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 12:24:16
Texas Dissenter:

"This 'great reformer' [Alexander Campbell] that you mention was a divider."

You mean a divider like Calvin?

Arizona Dissenter 
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Reformer on Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 12:41:38
MORE FROM "YOURS TRULY"—THE FREE MAN:

    The clergy person must go! His position is a cancer in the body of believers, preventing the various parts from functioning as God intended. The divine testimony is silent about our modern-day “pastors” and “pulpit ministers,” except they are referred to as hirelings [John 10:11-13]. They need to be dismissed and encouraged to find a job—or adopt evangelism, taking the Good News to the unsaved, whereby they would naturally be financially supported.
 
    Evangelical church leaders and Elders should cease accentuating extraneous issues such as "The Rapture," "The Battle of Armageddon," The Thousand-Year Earthly Reign [which has been in effect for 2,000 years], Middle East Israel, and other doctrinal “supplements” and start pointing the unsaved to Jesus.

    The innumerable magazines and books relating to these issues are causing confusion among the uncommitted and frustrating those who are reaching for a higher level of spiritual curriculum. They hunger for meat but are fed milk.
 
    These changes are not likely to come about overnight, for they did not develop overnight. Somewhere along the trail, change will come. The mood and the times are right for it. May God grant us wisdom as we make preparations.

Buff
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Texas Conservative on Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 12:42:09
Texas Dissenter:

"This 'great reformer' [Alexander Campbell] that you mention was a divider."

You mean a divider like Calvin?

Arizona Dissenter 

I don't claim to revere Calvin.  So sure, he was a divider.  Campbell started his movement trying to get people to divide out of the groups they were in.  He's a divider straight up.
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Texas Conservative on Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 12:44:42
MORE FROM "YOURS TRULY"—THE FREE MAN:

    The clergy person must go! His position is a cancer in the body of believers, preventing the various parts from functioning as God intended. The divine testimony is silent about our modern-day “pastors” and “pulpit ministers,” except they are referred to as hirelings [John 10:11-13]. They need to be dismissed and encouraged to find a job—or adopt evangelism, taking the Good News to the unsaved, whereby he would naturally be financially supported.
 
    Evangelical church leaders and Elders should cease accentuating extraneous issues such as "The Rapture," "The Battle of Armageddon," The Thousand-Year Earthly Reign [which has been in effect for 2,000 years], Middle East Israel, and other doctrinal “supplements” and start pointing the unsaved to Jesus.

    The innumerable magazines and books relating to these issues are causing confusion among the uncommitted and frustrating those who are reaching for a higher level of spiritual curriculum. They hunger for meat but are fed milk.
 
    These changes are not likely to come about overnight, for they did not develop overnight. Somewhere along the trail, change will come. The mood and the times are right for it. May God grant us wisdom as we make preparations.

Buff

More overly broad statements and rhetoric focused on externals rather than internals.  You aren't a "free man" when you are still in bondage to your past traumas.

Signed,

The Man With More Freedom than "The Free Man."
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Reformer on Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 12:47:58
4WD:

    "...the Restoration Movement (RM) was not an intended reformation so much as a restoration."

    Wrong! The Campbells and others like them always referred to their ministries and/or efforts as reformation, never restoration.

Buff
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Texas Conservative on Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 12:49:58
4WD:

    "...the Restoration Movement (RM) was not an intended reformation so much as a restoration."

    Wrong! The Campbells and others like them always referred to their ministries and/or efforts as reformation, never restoration.

Buff

They ended up restoring a capella music.   rofl

Texas "SuperFree" Conservative.
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Reformer on Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 12:57:44
Texas Bondage:

    "More overly broad statements and rhetoric focused on externals rather than internals. You aren't a 'free man' when you are still in bondage to your past traumas."

    Give me something accurate to chew on instead of muddying the water with tiny stones and marbles. I desire substance, not insignificance.

Arizona Free man
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Texas Conservative on Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 13:09:27
Texas Bondage:

    "More overly broad statements and rhetoric focused on externals rather than internals. You aren't a 'free man' when you are still in bondage to your past traumas."

    Give me something accurate to chew on instead of muddying the water with tiny stones and marbles. I desire substance, not insignificance.

Arizona Free man

It's obvious that like 4WD said, you were treated poorly by some elders in your ministry period.   What I said was 100% accurate.  When you post substance instead of a focus on external things, we can talk about substance.

SuperFree
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Reformer on Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 13:14:08
Texas Radical:

    Let it be known that Calvin "started his movement trying to get people to divide out of the groups they were in. He's a divider straight up."

Arizona Conservative 
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: Reformer on Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 13:27:05
Texas Super Free:

    "It's obvious that like 4WD said, you were treated poorly by some elders in your ministry period.   What I said was 100% accurate. When you post substance instead of a focus on external things, we can talk about substance."

    Your apparent supernatural gift of discernment is invalid in my neck of the woods. If you know that much about my personal history, tell me the name of my first dog. Plus, tell me about my friend who died while he was drinking milk.

    But let me help you. My first dog's name was "Trigger." I named him after Roy Rogers horse. My friend passed on while drinking milk because the cow fell on him.

    Now since you could not discern these bits of history in advance, I consider you to be a counterfeit prophet.

Arizona Super True
Title: Re: Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature?
Post by: DaveW on Tue Aug 23, 2022 - 06:47:22
Leftism, which is the driving force for those walking away today, is itself a religion.
It most certainly is. A very insidious one at that.