Author Topic: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification  (Read 1322 times)

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Offline 4WD

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #35 on: Tue Aug 23, 2022 - 07:09:48 »
If it is true of one as you said concerning Calvinism, it is just as easily true of Arminianism....and even more so!
RB, my point was that your "correction" to my reply #29 was in error.  Fundamentally inappropriate constructs could never align with the word of God.

Offline 4WD

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #36 on: Tue Aug 23, 2022 - 07:43:35 »
But speaking of fundamentally inappropriate constructs, that is precisely what you are doing with the constructs of The "eternal phase" , the "legal phase",,,,, the "vital phase" ....., the "practical phase" ....., the "final phase" ...... of sanctification, of justification, or of salvation.

If God declares a person to be righteous, then it is so.  There are no phases in His doing so. When God accounts a person's believing, as in Abraham's case, to him as righteousness, it is so. A person thus justified is simply that, he is justified. It is a one-time single action by God.  The same is true of regeneration; there are no phases of regeneration.  In a real sense, it is true of sanctification also.  The difference is that while regeneration and justification are one-time actions by God, sanctification is both a one-time action by God and an on-going process by the individual. I could elaborate on that if you like, but I shouldn't think that would be necessary.


Offline 4WD

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #37 on: Tue Aug 23, 2022 - 08:06:17 »
Wrong~Baptism is commanded once a person show forth FRUITS of the indwelling Spirit of believing and repentance~just as Cornelius did in Acts 10.
Once again you fail to discriminate between the work of the Holy Spirit of indwelling, which is given for each and every individual who is saved, and the work of the Holy Spirit of empowering, which was given for a few selected individuals to perform signs, wonders, and miracles.

In Acts 10:47 Peter is referring to the event described in verse 44. There the Holy Spirit fell on, came upon, all who "heard the word" that Peter just spoke.  That the Holy Spirit did so was evidenced by the fact that they spoke in tongues. That was an empowering by the Holy Spirit to perform the miracle of speaking in tongues. It was not the gift of indwelling that occurs when a repentant believer is baptized (Acts 2:38).  that was Peter's whole point in verse 47. If the Holy Spirit had empowered those gentiles to perform miracles like happened at Pentecost, then who could withhold the baptizing of them to receive forgiveness of their sins and receive the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit.

Offline Rella

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #38 on: Tue Aug 23, 2022 - 08:29:59 »
RB Congratulations... You have once again confused matters with back to back sentences that seem to contradict what you actually say.
Quote

  4WD on: Yesterday at 09:38:07
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Justification is the declaration of righteousness.

Agreed

 4WD
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When we are justified, we are declared righteous

Careful with your wording! It is not when we are, but when we wereLegally, it happened before we were ever born!

Quote from: Paul a preacher of FREE justification by grace alone
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Romans 4:25~"Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."

Paul said we were justified at the resurrection of Jesus Christ, legally speaking in God's sight! I'll go with Paul.

I say contradict because youhave maintained... for as long as I can remember that justification happened before we were born.

You say that here. You say that  "Legally, it happened before we were ever born!"

So a big question is WHEN did one become unjutified?

Please try to follow what I am saying.

If before we are born we are legally justified (declared righteous)..... then we must have lost it after we are born at some point for PAUL to have said "Paul said we were justified at the resurrection of Jesus Christ, legally speaking in God's sight!

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Romans 4:25~"Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."

Paul does not say they were justified from before birth... Paul says in Romans 4:25 it was the crucifixion/resurection that offered the justification.

YOU CANNOT HAVE BEFORE BIRTH, THEN AGAIN WHEN JESUS DIED FOR OUR SINS.

If it was before birth then after birth it has to have been lost.

And in my opinion 4WD is correct when he says

Quote from: 4WD on: Yesterday at 09:38:07

we are, as was Abraham, credited as righteous when we believe

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #38 on: Tue Aug 23, 2022 - 08:29:59 »

Offline RB

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #39 on: Tue Aug 23, 2022 - 09:49:42 »
RB Congratulations... You have once again confused matters with back to back sentences that seem to contradict what you actually say.
Rella, you used the word "seem", which it exactly what it is to your mind~NO pun intended.

Sorry, if you are having trouble following what I have said, so, let me address your post as carefully as I can, God helping me.
Quote from: Rella Reply #38 on: Today at 08:29:59
I say contradict because you have maintained... for as long as I can remember that justification happened before we were born.
I have and will address this point in my post on Justification coming soon. The Church has for the most part always believed this truth, especially so right after the Reformers where we can find many articles on this truth.  http://www.sovereignredeemerbooks.com/assets/pdf/samuel-richardson/justification-by-christ-alone.pdf      https://libcfl.com/articles/brine.htm Just to mention two great Articles. Here is one where we can see two well-known voices of the past teaching the same truth. https://www.pristinegrace.org/article.php?id=39.

So, yes, I DO believe in THAT phase of Justification. But, it certainly is not limited to this alone, for there is a legal phase, that Christ fulfilled for us to secure our justification before the Judge of this world; and there is a practical phase where we are justified in our conscience upon believing...Romans 5:1,2 that brings peace to our souls and before others as they see our good works~per James 2.

Dear sister, how else can we explain such scriptures as:
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Romans 3:24~"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"
And:
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James 2:24~"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
Along with such scriptures as:
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Roamns 11:5,6~"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."
There's only one way and that is to put the proper biblical sense on these scriptures so that we can rightly divide the word of God, if not, then we will have the scriptures contradicting themselves, which we know they cannot, the problems lies within our understanding of them and our ability to teach them.
Quote from: Rella Reply #38 on: Today at 08:29:59
You say that  "Legally, it happened before we were ever born!"
Rella, I have never said that~I have said ETERNALLY in the purpose, will, and the mind of God we were. Legally it happened at the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Quote from: Rella Reply #38 on: Today at 08:29:59
So a big question is WHEN did one become unjustified?
NEVER in the mind of God~yet were children of wrath "only" by nature and in no other sense! Consider carefully:
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Ephesians 2:1-5~"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)"
There has never been a time when God did not love us, NEVER, even when we were living in sins, he loved us IN CHRIST in whom we were chosen before the foundation of the world. This cannot be said of those who die in their sins, no where in the scriptures is it even hinted God love them, nowhere.

The rest of your post in more or less been answered. If not, and you need more clarification, then please tell me.

Trying hard to cut down on the sign of my post.
« Last Edit: Tue Aug 23, 2022 - 09:51:48 by RB »

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #39 on: Tue Aug 23, 2022 - 09:49:42 »

Offline RB

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #40 on: Tue Aug 23, 2022 - 09:55:39 »
Once again you fail to discriminate between the work of the Holy Spirit of indwelling, which is given for each and every individual who is saved, and the work of the Holy Spirit of empowering, which was given for a few selected individuals to perform signs, wonders, and miracles.

In Acts 10:47 Peter is referring to the event described in verse 44. There the Holy Spirit fell on, came upon, all who "heard the word" that Peter just spoke.  That the Holy Spirit did so was evidenced by the fact that they spoke in tongues. That was an empowering by the Holy Spirit to perform the miracle of speaking in tongues. It was not the gift of indwelling that occurs when a repentant believer is baptized (Acts 2:38).  that was Peter's whole point in verse 47. If the Holy Spirit had empowered those gentiles to perform miracles like happened at Pentecost, then who could withhold the baptizing of them to receive forgiveness of their sins and receive the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit.
Later I want to address this after I post my article on Justification. If I forget, please by all means remind me to come back to this post of ours.

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #41 on: Tue Aug 23, 2022 - 20:29:10 »
Acts 10:47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" from the NAS version.
 RB you said "  It is impossible to refute these words of Peter concerning which comes FIRST. Only folks who hold to a biased agenda would attempt to do so."

It might just be your biased agenda that keeps you from seeing the truth. Let us reason this out and keep it in context.

Lets put more of the text with nit to keep it in context.


Acts 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

Notice that the Spirit fell upon the gentiles that were hearing the words of Peter. This was prophesy being fulfilled as Joel said it was to come to be.
Acts 2:16ff
16But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.

Remember the passage that reads to the Jews first then to the Gentiles or do I need to find it?

Also remember Mark 16:17ff where it told what power that the Apostles would receive? That it was to be a sign to the unbelievers? In those verses where the Spirit falls on the gentiles who was the sign for so that they could believe that God was inviting the gentile into the fold?

Also note that Peter said that it only happened this one time just as it did when the Spirit fell upon the Apostles. This only happened this way one time before and only on the Apostles. This is not the indwelling spirit that is given through the baptism in Christ name but the power upon which was given to the Apostles at Pentecost.

Therefore the question "  Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" and followed with the command "And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

The same as commanded in Acts 2:378 consistent with all teaching on baptism in Christ name.

Offline RB

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #42 on: Wed Aug 24, 2022 - 04:56:17 »
Acts 10:47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" from the NAS version.
 RB you said "  It is impossible to refute these words of Peter concerning which comes FIRST. Only folks who hold to a biased agenda would attempt to do so."

It might just be your biased agenda that keeps you from seeing the truth. Let us reason this out and keep it in context.

Let's put more of the text with it to keep it in context.
Yogi, I stand by what I said, and your post truly proves not one thing that would overthrow my statement.

Yogi, if adding more of Acts ten to keep this in its context, then by all means let us do so.

Before I do so, let me correct both you and 4WD, I'm not the least confused about what 4WD first posted:
Quote from: 4WD on: Yesterday at 08:06:17
Once again you fail to discriminate between the work of the Holy Spirit of indwelling, which is given for each and every individual who is saved, and the work of the Holy Spirit of empowering, which was given for a few selected individuals to perform signs, wonders, and miracles.
Are you two ready to deny Cornelius was not saved (in a regenerate sense) while the Holy Ghost fell on them BEFORE they were baptized? If you say yes, then you have a serious problem to address in Acts 2, where Peter told them on Pentecost that enquire what they must do to receive what he had by telling them to Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and they too WOULD RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit!

Actually, both Cornelius and his household and those who enquired of Peter in Acts 2~both were regenerated before water baptism!

First, Cornelius......
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Acts 10:1-2~“There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.”
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Acts 10:34-35~“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.”
Corneluis did BOTH before he ever saw or heard Peter's voice! Cornelius was accepted with God, born again by the Spirit of God, and in possession of eternal life long before he heard of Peter, for his righteous actions and God’s declarations about him prove this easy conclusion. No unregenerate man can or will do the things that Cornelius did fervently and zealously, which things were accepted by God in heaven!

Cornelius had been elected by God the Father before the world began (2nd Timothy 1:9); the Son of God had obeyed and died for him some years earlier (Hebrews 10:10-14); and the Spirit had applied the work in the vital act of regeneration during his life (Titus 3:5). Peter, states these three facts plainly for all who will read (Ist Peter 1:2).

God had already made an incredible change in his life by giving him a heart that separated him from other Italians. The life-giving voice of the Lord Jesus Christ had called for him to live spiritually, and he lived as certainly as Lazarus came forth from the tomb. He only needed Peter to loose him from some Roman and Jewish burial clothes!

Peter brought the gospel to save Cornelius from despair over his sins (Luke 7:36-50; Rom 7:24-25), from Jewish ignorance of salvation (Romans 10:1-5), from Roman idolatry and superstition (Ist Thess 1:9-10), from ignorance about life and immortality (2nd Timothy 1:9-10), and from confusion about the resurrection (Ist Corinthians 15:2). He needed to learn the way of God more perfectly (Acts 18:24-28), and how to prove his election (2nd Peter 1:5-11), including that repentance, baptism, (Acts 2:37-47).

It is absurd to make Cornelius a lost sinner that pleased God by works of the flesh! It is absurd to believe he had to make some silly decision for Jesus in order to be justified and born again. He was already serving the Lord far beyond a fleshly decision. He needed Peter to direct his new man in the way of righteousness, not help him get born again.

The word of God is plain. Except a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God (John 3:3). The kingdom of God cannot be shown to a man not born again, because he cannot and will not see it. If a man believes on Jesus, he is already born again (Ist John 5:1). If he loves the brethren, he is already born again (Ist John 4:7). If he does righteousness, he is already born again (Ist John 2:29). These are evidences of eternal life! There are NO CONDITIONS.

Men do not want a sovereign God, so they corrupt the doctrine of salvation to make their own freewill their saviour. They want to be in charge. Because Cornelius is an extensive salvation story, they corrupt it as well. They make Peter and Cornelius cooperating saviours. We believe Jesus Christ saved Cornelius by Himself … before he met Peter!

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Acts 2:37,38~"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
I'll come back to these two scriptures later, so as not to make this post too long

Offline RB

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #43 on: Wed Aug 24, 2022 - 05:28:35 »
Quote
Acts 2:37,38~"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
I do not have anything new to add to these scriptures than what I have said in the past, so, I will reiterate much of what I have said before concerning these two scriptures.

If we stay with the flow of the scriptures concerning Peter's words spoken on Pentecost, we should easily see the truth as to what they're saying to us. At least I see and trust others will as well.

"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart"~these folks were pricked in their hearts after hearing Peter's words concerning them (the Jews) crucifying Jesus Christ, whom God had highly exalted to His right hand, they were pricked in the hearts. If we compare scriptures with scriptures we must conclude that these folks were giving evidence that they had been regenerated by the Spirit of God, and Peter being a man of God KNEW THIS, and he said what he said to them (in Acts 2:38 which we shall consider in a few)  because of him knowing evidence of regeneration.

If we compare those on Pentecost with those to whom Stephen preached to we shall see this more clearly:
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Acts 7:51-54~"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
In Acts 2:27, they were pricked in their hearts, in Acts 7, they were cut to the heart~one group regenerated, the other left in their sins. Two perfect examples of the types of hearers hearing the word of God, to one they ASK what shall we do, the others still filled with hatred toward God and his word. One group was born of God, the other was not!

After seeing them being pricked in their hearts, Peter told them to REPENT which only a man with spiritual life can do, and be baptized "FOR" or because of, (Peter seeing them being pricked in their hearts) them giving proof of their sins being forgiving, and they too would receive what Peter and the others were doing!

John the Baptist only baptized those who brought forth FRUITS worthy of repentance, and without such, he would not baptize them!
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Matthew 3:8~"Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Baptism is FOR the remission of sin, "for" meaning because of! Not in order to obtain, as many have been taught.  Mark 1:44~
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"And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them."
It is used in the same sense in Acts 2:38, based upon Peter being a man of God and KNOWING what is the evidence of being born of God is said what he did to them and we understand exactly what he meant by using those words.

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #43 on: Wed Aug 24, 2022 - 05:28:35 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #44 on: Wed Aug 24, 2022 - 07:38:50 »
First off RB, the phrase "cut to the heart" has nothing to do with being regenerated or not being regenerated.  That phrase which you pointed out occurs in Acts 2:37 and Acts 7:54 also appears in Acts 5:33.

“Cut to the Heart” is a metaphor that means to be overcome with emotional anguish, grief and/or suffering. It is simply an emotional response to something that they heard or saw.  It is independent upon whether it leads to actions that are good or bad.  In Acts 2:37 it is an emotional response to learning that they had participated in the killing of the very messiah that they had been waiting for.  It led to the good actions of repenting of their actions; understandably they asked Peter and the apostles, "what are we going to do now".  Peter answered them.

In both Acts 5:33 and 7:54 the emotional response led to bad actions.  In the first case, the high priest and the council (v.27) were so enraged that they wanted to kill the apostles.  Fortunately, Gamaliel persuaded them not to.  In the second case, the response of the people led to their stoning Stephen to death.

There is nothing in all three cases that suggests anything about being regenerated.  However, I would argue that in the Acts 2:37 case it did lead to their believing that Peter was telling them the truth that they had crucified the very messiah they were waiting for.  That truth, then led them to remorseful repentance and being baptized at which time, God forgave their sins and gave them the gift, the indwelling, Holy Spirit; that is, as a result they were born again, they were regenerated.

They were baptized for forgiveness i.e., UNTO forgiveness.  RB, there is simply no way to translate/interpret that to mean "because of".  To do so is a complete rejection of what Peter actually said.
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 24, 2022 - 07:42:45 by 4WD »

Offline RB

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #45 on: Thu Aug 25, 2022 - 03:36:42 »
Quote from:  Samuel Richardson {Saint’s Desire, written in 1647}
Eternal Union in Christ........God considers his to be in Christ, before they had a being in themselves, {Eph.1:4,} and he never looks upon his children out of Him, for they are never out of Him, for they dwell in Christ, and shall ever live, and be found in Him. {Phil.3:8} Christ and all true believers are so united together, that they are but one; one body, one spirit, bone of his bone. Oh what union is like to this, that is so real, full, and entire, wonderful, glorious, spiritual, eternal, and infinite! {I Cor.6:17, John 17:22,23} If our faith in Christ were as strong as our union with Christ, we should engross and possess all that is in heaven, and nothing in the earth could trouble us.
Eternal Justification was a very familiar teaching five hundred years ago in the churches in England and throughout Europe, as we shall soon see as I post on the doctrine Justification.

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #46 on: Thu Aug 25, 2022 - 04:02:34 »
“Cut to the Heart” is a metaphor that means to be overcome with emotional anguish, grief and/or suffering. It is simply an emotional response to something that they heard or saw.  It is independent upon whether it leads to actions that are good or bad.  In Acts 2:37 it is an emotional response to learning that they had participated in the killing of the very messiah that they had been waiting for.  It led to the good actions of repenting of their actions; understandably they asked Peter and the apostles, "what are we going to do now".  Peter answered them.

In both Acts 5:33 and 7:54 the emotional response led to bad actions.  In the first case, the high priest and the council (v.27) were so enraged that they wanted to kill the apostles.  Fortunately, Gamaliel persuaded them not to.  In the second case, the response of the people led to their stoning Stephen to death.
4WD, I understand clearly the differences between the two and used them to help others see why Peter said what he did in Acts 2:38, that should help any person to understand the purpose of Peter's words and his use of "for" in Acts 2:38.

Being pricked in one heart is a deep conviction of the truth of what that person is hearing is TRUE~totally unlike being "cut to the heart" which shows a hatred of what that person is hearing goes against what he desires to believe and his anguish of spirit of not wanting to hear what is being spoken~in each case, it PROVES who are regenerated and who are NOT just as it does in Acts 2:37 and Acts 5:33. 7:54!

As I said, Peter sitting under Christ for three plus years LEARN to detect such people and understood what to say to each once he saw the reaction of their spirit toward the word of God. Matthew 10:14; Mark 6:11 and Luke 9:5 We still do the same today, and so do you if you would only confess you do.
Quote from: 4WD on: Yesterday at 07:38:50
They were baptized for forgiveness i.e., UNTO forgiveness.  RB, there is simply no way to translate/interpret that to mean "because of".
4WD, it is not about the translation, but following the FLOW OF THE CONTEXT my friend.
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 25, 2022 - 04:05:34 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #47 on: Thu Aug 25, 2022 - 07:10:24 »
Eternal Justification was a very familiar teaching five hundred years ago in the churches in England and throughout Europe, as we shall soon see as I post on the doctrine Justification.
Generally, I have no argument about the fact of God's eternal justification. The argument is how God determines those whom He justifies.  There is absolutely nothing in what you quoted from Samuel Richardson that presents your wayward view of God's choice of whom He justifies. 

 

     
anything