Christian Forums and Message Board

Will Reformation Solve Our Divisive Nature? (Author : Reformer)
    Yes and No. Let me start by inquiring, Considering the rampant division within the Christian community, is reformation likely to occur? Possibly, but change will not come easily. The “chief priests and teachers of the law,” or most of today’s clergy and religious leaders, will oppose reformational efforts. They will try to persuade their followers to ask for the status quo and put reformation to death.

    It was the clergy who “persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and to have Jesus executed” [Matt. 27:20]. They refused change and killed the world’s greatest reformer. They executed the Prince of Peace by nailing Him to a Roman tree. They were more willing to “bosom-buddy” a murderer than to see their sects and denominations undergo reform. A repeat today would not alter the scene.

    Most will not struggle for reform. Only the free man will opt for reform. He must be free from anything that enslaves. He is not free if he is a party man. If he has yielded his will to some denomination or cult, he is enslaved, for he is bound to uphold his party’s creeds, promote its philosophies, and fight for its growth and survival. Should he waver a little to the right or lean a little to the left, he is soon called upon the partisan carpet and told to shape up or ship out.

    If he refuses to shape up or line up with the party’s shibboleths, he will soon find himself on the outside looking in. But this is the best thing that could happen to him! For the first time, he would meet freedom face-to-face. He could then declare with the apostle Paul, “Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a servant to everyone, to win as many as possible” [I Cor. 9:19]. 

    It is not easy to free oneself from all partisan entanglements? I know, “been there, done that.” We can serve others better when we are free of all partisan fetters, and that is because we don’t have to look over our shoulders to see if our party’s chieftains are looking our way.

    The free man does not nor cannot represent any church, faction, denomination, or sect. He is God’s representative. He answers only to his Lord, not to the “chief priests and teachers of the law.” He has no lords, popes, or masters to whom he must give account. He will, however, be open to the persuasion of wise qualified shepherds or overseers and submit to their leadership.

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Reply #1 by 4WD Reformation of what?

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Reply #2 by Texas Conservative Focusing on external things will not change anything. 

The "free man's" poop stinks the same as any other man. 

The "free man" gives lip service to submission to elders in the church.  If submitting to elders, would not have to give them an account in submission?

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Reply #3 by Reformer 4WD:

"Reformation of what?"

    The contents answer your question, brother. But I'll help you a little more. The religious establishment and modern-day Christianity are indeed in need of reforming.

Buff

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Reply #4 by Reformer Texas Dude:

"The 'free man's' poop stinks the same as any other man."

Not necessarily factual, brother. Instead of using BRUT, he consumes it!

Arizona Dude

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Reply #5 by Reformer MORE ON THE FREE MAN:

    He is bold but not violent, firm but not rude, outspoken but not mouthy. The free man will be compassionate and loving. He will always remember that a man called Jesus transformed the world without throwing a rock, burning a building, drawing a sword, or brainwashing weak and innocent minds.

    This man Jesus changed the world by the simple act of persuasive teaching. There will never be another like Him. Praise His Holy Name!

Buff

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Reply #6 by Wycliffes_Shillelagh The religious establishment here in America is a dead man walking.  The youth are not joining; they are being educated against religion.  Society is openly baring its fangs at the very existence of religion.

Is reformation a realistic goal?  I think whatever doctrinal differences exist may become moot in the face of a common enemy intent on their extinction.  Survival may be a better goal.

Jarrod

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Reply #7 by Texas Conservative

Texas Dude:

"The 'free man's' poop stinks the same as any other man."

Not necessarily factual, brother. Instead of using BRUT, he consumes it!

Arizona Dude

The "free man" is just greater division.  Period.

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Reply #8 by Reformer Jarrod:

    "The religious establishment here in America is a dead man walking.  The youth are not joining; they are being educated against religion.  Society is openly baring its fangs at the very existence of religion.

Is reformation a realistic goal?  I think whatever doctrinal differences exist may become moot in the face of a common enemy intent on their extinction.  Survival may be a better goal."

Truer words were never spoken through false teeth!

Thank you, brother,

Buff

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Reply #9 by Reformer Texas Senator:

"The 'free man' is just greater division. Period."

"Hey, apostle Paul! Did you hear what that man said?"

Arizona Senator

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Reply #10 by Reformer ANOTHER SYMPTOM OF THE FREE MAN:

    We are not free if we refuse to listen to and take counsel from others whose wisdom is on a higher level than ours. Listening to and accepting counsel from others is not the same as being dictated to by the “chief priests and elders.” Submission to the latter will enslave us. Listening to the former will make us wiser.

Buff

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Reply #11 by Texas Conservative

ANOTHER SYMPTOM OF THE FREE MAN:

    We are not free if we refuse to listen to and take counsel from others whose wisdom is on a higher level than ours. Listening to and accepting counsel from others is not the same as being dictated to by the “chief priests and elders.” Submission to the latter will enslave us. Listening to the former will make us wiser.

Buff

As the resident board genius, Chief Justice, and board "former," it would be wise to listen to and accept counsel from yours truly.   

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Reply #12 by Alan I see more people walking away from Churches to be free of religion altogether, than people walking away to seek a higher road.

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Reply #13 by Reformer Texas Chief Justice:

   Okay, let's set up an appointment date so that I can "listen to and accept counsel from yours truly." Followed by some kind of therapy medication.

Arizona Chief Justice

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Reply #14 by Reformer Alan:

    You're probably correct, namely, "I see more people walking away from Churches to be free of religion altogether, than people walking away to seek a higher road."

Buff

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Reply #15 by Texas Conservative Ha!

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Reply #16 by Wycliffes_Shillelagh

,,,some kind of therapy medication.

Or radiation, probably.

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Reply #17 by Reformer Jarrod:

But let's make it spiritual radiation!

Buff

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Reply #18 by 4WD People, for the most part today, are not walking away from church; they have never been there to begin with. If there is a problem with church today, I believe that it is because there is no one out on the street calling for people to come to God. I am as guilty, or more so, of that as anyone.  And the "home church" does not solve that problem.  There just isn't much evangelism taking place in today's churches. I do not see any sort of "reformation" solving that problem.  It is not so much what the church today is doing wrong; rather it is what the church today is not doing at all.  There may be several reasons for that, but one, I believe, is the modern understanding of "the separation between church and state".  That is a disaster.

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Reply #19 by DaveW "Free Man" is a fantasy.  As a Jewish prophet once said:  "Ya gotta serve somebody. Now it might be the devil or it might be the Lord; But you're gonna have to serve somebody."

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Reply #20 by 4WD Romans 6:15-23 pretty much debunks the "free man" ideas.  In fact, Paul there says that we should be "slaves", slaves to righteousness that is.

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Reply #21 by Texas Conservative

"Free Man" is a fantasy.  As a Jewish prophet once said:  "Ya gotta serve somebody. Now it might be the devil or it might be the Lord; But you're gonna have to serve somebody."

I believe the "Free Man" serves himself.

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Reply #22 by Reformer 4WD:

    "Romans 6:15-23 pretty much debunks the 'free man' ideas.  In fact, Paul there says that we should be 'slaves,' slaves to righteousness that is."

    Your argument is not with me, it's with Paul. “Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a servant to everyone, to win as many as possible” [I Cor. 9:19].

"For why should my liberty [freedom] be determined by someone else's conscience?" [I Cor. 10:29].

"For you were called to freedom, brothers" [Gal. 5:13].
   
    My point is that although we are free in Christ, yet we are His servants or slaves. Spiritual, heavenly slavery or servanthood is a holy relationship, but human slavery to the "powers that be," whether to religious establishments or man's religious ventures, are unholy.

Buff

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Reply #23 by Reformer ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS ON THE FREE MAN:

    Let me affirm I am not bitter toward those who do not share my views on reform. They are no less my brothers because they are not as caught up in reformation as I am. My primary ministry is reformation. This is where the good Lord has planted me. And this is where I must take root and grow.

    I dare not reject the brother whose ministry is in some other field or area of life, or whose divine assignment differs from mine. I know only that I must work for reform. And I cannot work for reform by rejecting those who do not agree with my efforts. But I have and will reject the system that has subjugated us.
 
    My strong belief is that modern-day Christianity ought to surrender all party labels, names, and partisan practices. The denominating of separatist Christian groups should cease. We must recognize that wherever God has a child, we have a brother or a sister. We have no half-brothers or half-sisters in the Lord. We are all blood fellows of Jesus the Lamb.

Buff 

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Reply #24 by 4WD

My point is that although we are free in Christ, yet we are His servants or slaves. Spiritual, heavenly slavery or servanthood is a holy relationship, but human slavery to the "powers that be," whether to religious establishments or man's religious ventures, are unholy.

I think that you are playing just a bit with words.  I still do not know, specifically, what reformation you are proposing.

And I have no argument with Paul, I simply quoted his words to you.

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Reply #25 by Reformer 4WD:

    "I think that you are playing just a bit with words.  I still do not know, specifically, what reformation you are proposing."

    Come on, brother! Yes, we're both Senior adults, but neither of us is a Senior intellectually and observably.

Kindly,

Buff

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Reply #26 by RB

1st Corinthians 7:22~"For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant."

In one sense, I'm the Lord's freeman, and answer only to him~yet, every Christian is a servant to those in Christ. If we refuse to be so, then we have no part with Christ.

John 13:5-17~"After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter. Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean. So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you? Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.

No man lives unto himself or dieth unto himself, we were put here to be servants to our wives, children, and to all men, especially those of the household of faith~even though we may be master to all of them.

This being said, I'm no servant to men who desire to make me do and say what they think I should do and say, and we cannot be bought with money in order for us to say and do those things before they will accept us into their inner circle.  Yet, I'm willing to be a godly servant to all men, even to men who oppose themselves, peradventure God may bring them to repentance.

2nd Timothy 2:24-26~"And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will."

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Reply #27 by Texas Conservative This independent believer thing ("free man") is not scriptural.

1 Corinthians 7:22 is addressing those called as slaves are now free in Christ.  Those called while being free are now slaves of Christ.

We are to submit to elders of the church.  "Those who rule well." 

Titus 3:1-2

Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.[/i]

1 Timothy 5:

17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

18 For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.[/i]

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Reply #28 by Reformer Texas Board Genius:

"This independent believer thing ('free man') is not scriptural."

    Paul—"Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as bondservants of God" [Gal. 2:16].

Arizona Board Genius

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Reply #29 by Reformer THE FREE MAN WILL BE NON-PARTISAN:

   The free man will not draw party lines. If Jesus did not erect the barrier that keeps our brothers out, dismantle it. Remove the notion that salvation is found only in our association with churches or denominations. Patterns and parties cannot save. Jesus is our Pattern, our Plan, and our Salvation. Churchitis or sectarianism is the wrong answer to the world’s problems. If a solution is ever found, the world must look to Jesus—not to divisive churches.
 
    Purge all ritualism and formalism from our meetings and get back to the simple, informal, mutual method of sharing with and edifying one another. Our open class meetings resemble the open meetings of the early believers, for everyone is encouraged to participate. Participation makes for spiritual growth. Pewwarming makes for spiritual retreat.

Buff
 

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Reply #30 by DaveW

THE FREE MAN WILL BE NON-PARTISAN:

   The free man will not draw party lines. If Jesus did not erect the barrier that keeps our brothers out, dismantle it. Remove the notion that salvation is found only in our association with churches or denominations. Patterns and parties cannot save. Jesus is our Pattern, our Plan, and our Salvation. Churchitis or sectarianism is the wrong answer to the world’s problems. If a solution is ever found, the world must look to Jesus—not to divisive churches.
 
    Purge all ritualism and formalism from our meetings and get back to the simple, informal, mutual method of sharing with and edifying one another. Our open class meetings resemble the open meetings of the early believers, for everyone is encouraged to participate. Participation makes for spiritual growth. Pewwarming makes for spiritual retreat.

It is not necessarily sectarian to believe you figured out the "program" to get saved.  Especially when you realize that you got something wrong and your own group is condemned to destruction with everyone else.

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Reply #31 by Reformer DaveW:

    Please enlarge upon what you're saying in Reply #30. Or perhaps a clarification will help.

Thanks,

Buff

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Reply #32 by Texas Conservative

Texas Board Genius:

"This independent believer thing ('free man') is not scriptural."

    Paul—"Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as bondservants of God" [Gal. 2:16].

Arizona Board Genius

1.  You used the wrong reference for this.  It is 1 Peter 2:16
2.  The end of the verse refutes your point.  We are slaves of God.
3.  To use this verse the way you do is to use the verse out of context.  13-15 preceding this and 17 to the rest of the chapter talk about submission even to harsh rules, etc.

13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people.

17 Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.

18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19 For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God. 20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.

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Reply #33 by DaveW

DaveW:
    Please enlarge upon what you're saying in Reply #30. Or perhaps a clarification will help.
Thanks,
Buff

Let me give an example.  Near where I grew up there was a small bible store ran by a guy, ordained as an Assy of God pastor.  He did fill in work when needed for various congregations in the area, even if they were not A/G.  One day a person comes in from a "Jesus Only" denomination which took the "one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5) to mean that if you got the formula wrong, you were toast since it could not be re-done.  At some point he realized "Jesus" is a modern creation, and that His actual name was Yeshua.  Which meant his entire denomination was going to hell because they used the wrong name.

I find nothing exclusive or sectarian in that approach. It is excluding themselves as much as it is anyone else.

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Reply #34 by Reformer Texas Legend:

"We are slaves of God."

    There is no argument here. We are voluntarily slaves or servants of God and should "live as people who are free," says Peter in I Peter 2:16, as you noted. Free from what? Free from anything that enslaves. Sectarianism once enslaved me. Partisan indoctrination enslaves many of us who should be free in Christ.

   Even you, Texas Legend, are enslaved if your Christian relationship is with a denomination or church that compels—or strongly expects—you to adopt their sectarian agenda or be disciplined or excommunicated. That's the kind of relationship I had decades ago, but now I'm a free man in Christ Jesus! No more shackles! No more "forced labor!"

Arizona Legend

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