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Offline 4WD

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Works
« on: Sat Mar 21, 2020 - 08:45:21 »
John 6:26  Jesus answered them and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
John 6:27  "Do not work for the food which perishes, but [work] for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."


Here the word "work" which Jesus used here is from the Greek "ergazomai".  It means to work, to labor, to do something.  It is something that we do.

Continuing on, we read,

John 6:28  Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
John 6:29  Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."


Paul puts faith and works into separate categories, and separates works from salvation. But the fact is that Jesus clearly identifies faith itself as a work in this key text of John 6: 26-29. In this text Jesus uses the language of “works” to describe faith. Ergon is the common Greek noun for “work, deed, act, something we do”; and “ergazomai” is the verb, “to work, to do.” Thus Jesus is clearly identifying it as a work in the general sense of “something you do” (vv. 28-29). And even though faith is a work in this sense, it leads to salvation (v. 27, “eternal life”). (We should note that the expression “work of God” in v. 29 is not referring to a work that God Himself does, but to a work that God requires us to do.)

Therefore we must ask if when Paul said,  " For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast (Eph 2:8-9), was he contradicting Jesus in John 6:26-29?

I think most of us would answer that Paul did not contradict Jesus.  So then we must conclude, unlike so many Christians today, that Paul's using the word works in relation to receiving salvation in Ephesians 2:8-9 and elsewhere in a difference sense than Jesus than Jesus did in John 6:26-29.  It behooves us to understand that difference.

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Works
« on: Sat Mar 21, 2020 - 08:45:21 »

Online GB

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Re: Works
« Reply #1 on: Sat Mar 21, 2020 - 18:26:32 »
John 6:26  Jesus answered them and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
John 6:27  "Do not work for the food which perishes, but [work] for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."


Here the word "work" which Jesus used here is from the Greek "ergazomai".  It means to work, to labor, to do something.  It is something that we do.

Continuing on, we read,

John 6:28  Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
John 6:29  Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."


Paul puts faith and works into separate categories, and separates works from salvation. But the fact is that Jesus clearly identifies faith itself as a work in this key text of John 6: 26-29. In this text Jesus uses the language of “works” to describe faith. Ergon is the common Greek noun for “work, deed, act, something we do”; and “ergazomai” is the verb, “to work, to do.” Thus Jesus is clearly identifying it as a work in the general sense of “something you do” (vv. 28-29). And even though faith is a work in this sense, it leads to salvation (v. 27, “eternal life”). (We should note that the expression “work of God” in v. 29 is not referring to a work that God Himself does, but to a work that God requires us to do.)

Therefore we must ask if when Paul said,  " For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast (Eph 2:8-9), was he contradicting Jesus in John 6:26-29?

I think most of us would answer that Paul did not contradict Jesus.  So then we must conclude, unlike so many Christians today, that Paul's using the word works in relation to receiving salvation in Ephesians 2:8-9 and elsewhere in a difference sense than Jesus than Jesus did in John 6:26-29.  It behooves us to understand that difference.


Very good topic.

I would quickly add that we should also consider the times and why Paul would even need to make a statement like this in Eph.2.

Remember that there was already a religion in place claiming to be Preachers of the God of Abraham. This religion consisted of Pharisees and Jewish religious leaders who were still requiring their version of the Priesthood given to Levi by Moses.

In this Priesthood, when a person transgressed God's Commandment, described by Paul as " good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them", they were required to go to the Temple, find a Levite Priest, either buy, or give an animal, like a turtle dove, to the Priest, who would then perform "works" for the atonement of their sins.

But now that Jesus has become the High Priest, and this Priesthood had changed, their transgression of God's Commandments were atoned for by the Blood of this Jesus once and for all. By HIS Grace, He atoned for their sins. Not by them taking an animal to the Priest according to the Law of Moses regarding the atonement of sins..

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

As for the Words of Jesus in John, Paul confirms them.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

A very good topic, and one that has been misunderstood as you implied.

« Last Edit: Sat Mar 21, 2020 - 19:00:23 by GB »

BTR

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Re: Works
« Reply #2 on: Sat Mar 21, 2020 - 18:40:06 »
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them
. Ezk. 36:26,27


Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. -Rom.3:31

“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. -Jhn.15:5


Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
-Matt. 7:17-20

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Re: Works
« Reply #2 on: Sat Mar 21, 2020 - 18:40:06 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works
« Reply #3 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 03:28:46 »
John 6:26  Jesus answered them and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
John 6:27  "Do not work for the food which perishes, but [work] for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."


Here the word "work" which Jesus used here is from the Greek "ergazomai".  It means to work, to labor, to do something.  It is something that we do.

Continuing on, we read,

John 6:28  Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
John 6:29  Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."


Paul puts faith and works into separate categories, and separates works from salvation. But the fact is that Jesus clearly identifies faith itself as a work in this key text of John 6: 26-29. In this text Jesus uses the language of “works” to describe faith. Ergon is the common Greek noun for “work, deed, act, something we do”; and “ergazomai” is the verb, “to work, to do.” Thus Jesus is clearly identifying it as a work in the general sense of “something you do” (vv. 28-29). And even though faith is a work in this sense, it leads to salvation (v. 27, “eternal life”). (We should note that the expression “work of God” in v. 29 is not referring to a work that God Himself does, but to a work that God requires us to do.)

Therefore we must ask if when Paul said,  " For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast (Eph 2:8-9), was he contradicting Jesus in John 6:26-29?

I think most of us would answer that Paul did not contradict Jesus.  So then we must conclude, unlike so many Christians today, that Paul's using the word works in relation to receiving salvation in Ephesians 2:8-9 and elsewhere in a difference sense than Jesus than Jesus did in John 6:26-29.  It behooves us to understand that difference.

However you go around it, Paul is saying that salvation is by grace. If any man would understand that better, it would be Paul, because, not only he was taught by the Holy Spirit of this truth, but he experienced God's salvation in his life ~ by GRACE he was saved. That's the point. and that's the truth.


It's GRACE!

Jesus said:

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Jesus' sheep had been lost. Who are the sheep of Jesus?

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

They are of the descendants of Jacob, of the Israelites.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jesus also have other sheep that is not of the Israelites. Who are they?

Who else but of the Gentiles!

 
Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Jesus said concerning His lost sheep, of the Israelites and of the Gentiles, in John 10:27,

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

If you are Jesus' sheep, you will hear His voice, and will follow Him. If you are not His sheep, you won't hear His voice. If you are one of Jesus's lost sheep, Israelite or Gentile, don't you worry, He will definitely find you, and you will hear His voice.

It's GRACE!

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The Christians are the sheep of Jesus. God had created them anew in Christ Jesus. Unto good works God had created them. In good works that God had prepared beforehand for them to do.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Here's the voice of the Good Shepherd:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If you are one of His lost sheep, you hear His voice here. What are you waiting for?

HEAR and BELIEVE!

YOU HAD BEEN FOUND and are SAVED by your SHEPHERD JESUS CHRIST!

From now on, you won't ever be lost again!

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
« Last Edit: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 05:19:51 by Michael2012 »

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Re: Works
« Reply #3 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 03:28:46 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works
« Reply #4 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 05:21:05 »

Very good topic.

I would quickly add that we should also consider the times and why Paul would even need to make a statement like this in Eph.2.

Remember that there was already a religion in place claiming to be Preachers of the God of Abraham. This religion consisted of Pharisees and Jewish religious leaders who were still requiring their version of the Priesthood given to Levi by Moses.

In this Priesthood, when a person transgressed God's Commandment, described by Paul as " good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them", they were required to go to the Temple, find a Levite Priest, either buy, or give an animal, like a turtle dove, to the Priest, who would then perform "works" for the atonement of their sins.

But now that Jesus has become the High Priest, and this Priesthood had changed, their transgression of God's Commandments were atoned for by the Blood of this Jesus once and for all. By HIS Grace, He atoned for their sins. Not by them taking an animal to the Priest according to the Law of Moses regarding the atonement of sins..

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

As for the Words of Jesus in John, Paul confirms them.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

A very good topic, and one that has been misunderstood as you implied.

That's grace indeed from Jesus Christ, that He atoned for their sins. But that is not all of His grace GB. He not only died for His sheep to save them. He look and search out for His lost sheep, and when He finds them, He will gather them to be one flock and He will be their One Shepherd, never again to lose any one. Good news indeed! 


AMAZING GRACE!

Jesus said:

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Jesus' sheep had been lost. Who are the sheep of Jesus?

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

They are of the descendants of Jacob, of the Israelites.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jesus also have other sheep that is not of the Israelites. Who are they?

Who else but of the Gentiles!

 
Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Jesus said concerning His lost sheep, of the Israelites and of the Gentiles, in John 10:27,

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

If you are Jesus' sheep, you will hear His voice, and will follow Him. If you are not His sheep, you won't hear His voice. If you are one of Jesus's lost sheep, Israelite or Gentile, don't you worry, He will definitely find you, and you will hear His voice.

It's GRACE!

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The Christians are the sheep of Jesus. God had created them anew in Christ Jesus. Unto good works God had created them. In good works that God had prepared beforehand for them to do.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Here's the voice of the Good Shepherd:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If you are one of His lost sheep, you hear His voice here. What are you waiting for?

HEAR and BELIEVE!

YOU HAD BEEN FOUND and are SAVED by your SHEPHERD JESUS CHRIST!

From now on, you won't ever be lost again!

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

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Re: Works
« Reply #4 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 05:21:05 »



Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works
« Reply #5 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 05:30:50 »
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them
. Ezk. 36:26,27

Yes BTR. He is talking about His lost sheep.

Quote from: BTR
Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. -Rom.3:31

“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. -Jhn.15:5

Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
-Matt. 7:17-20

Yes. All that are truth found in scriptures.

But have you read or heard about the grace of God regarding His sheep written in scriptures? 


AMAZING GRACE!

Jesus said:

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Jesus' sheep had been lost. Who are the sheep of Jesus?

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

They are of the descendants of Jacob, of the Israelites.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jesus also have other sheep that is not of the Israelites. Who are they?

Who else but of the Gentiles!

 
Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Jesus said concerning His lost sheep, of the Israelites and of the Gentiles, in John 10:27,

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

If you are Jesus' sheep, you will hear His voice, and will follow Him. If you are not His sheep, you won't hear His voice. If you are one of Jesus's lost sheep, Israelite or Gentile, don't you worry, He will definitely find you, and you will hear His voice.

It's GRACE!

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The Christians are the sheep of Jesus. God had created them anew in Christ Jesus. Unto good works God had created them. In good works that God had prepared beforehand for them to do.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Here's the voice of the Good Shepherd:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If you are one of His lost sheep, you hear His voice here. What are you waiting for?

HEAR and BELIEVE!

YOU HAD BEEN FOUND and are SAVED by your SHEPHERD JESUS CHRIST!

From now on, you won't ever be lost again!

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

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Re: Works
« Reply #5 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 05:30:50 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Works
« Reply #6 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 05:37:36 »
I am very disappointed.  So far it seems no one actually addressed the point of the OP.  Michael apparently didn't understand a thing that I posted; but instead went into some discussion about grace.  I do very much appreciate the element of grace involved in our receiving eternal life, but it has nothing to do with the subject of the OP.  GB reverted to his usual nonsense about the failed Levitical priesthood which has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of works whether as Jesus spoke about works or as Paul spoke about works.

In a nutshell, what we read in passages like John 6:26-29 is that Jesus tells us that we must work, i.e., we must do something, in order to obtain eternal life; while in passages like Ephesians 2:8-9 it seems that Paul tells us that no works, i.e., doing something, anything, will get us eternal life.

My question is who is right, Jesus or Paul? Or how can Jesus and Paul both be telling us the truth?

Offline Alan

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Re: Works
« Reply #7 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 07:03:29 »
Perhaps the entire philosophy of works is dependent on the mindset of the individual which only God knows. We cannot "work" our way into salvation, that is undisputed but at the same time our outward actions show the requirements of a man that has been saved by the grace of God, not in deceit for self serving purposes but with a genuine heart toward doing good deeds.

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Re: Works
« Reply #8 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 07:16:33 »
I am very disappointed.  So far it seems no one actually addressed the point of the OP.  Michael apparently didn't understand a thing that I posted; but instead went into some discussion about grace.  I do very much appreciate the element of grace involved in our receiving eternal life, but it has nothing to do with the subject of the OP.  GB reverted to his usual nonsense about the failed Levitical priesthood which has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of works whether as Jesus spoke about works or as Paul spoke about works.

In a nutshell, what we read in passages like John 6:26-29 is that Jesus tells us that we must work, i.e., we must do something, in order to obtain eternal life; while in passages like Ephesians 2:8-9 it seems that Paul tells us that no works, i.e., doing something, anything, will get us eternal life.

My question is who is right, Jesus or Paul? Or how can Jesus and Paul both be telling us the truth?

Question:

Can you give example(s) from current biblical translations or any translations going back to original Koine Greek  (Of which there is a fondness here to comment on specific meaning from thranslations)of where the word work was used, and how?

The problem, as I see it, is not if Jesus or Paul is right. The problem is misunderstanding how the word is used and until made clear will continue to confuse.

Jesus clearly said

"John 6:29  Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Which would indicate that the simple act of believing in or having faith in is a work.

Paul clearly said

"" For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast (Eph 2:8-9)"

In my opinion Paul was not talking about believing in Jesus, or "believing " as a work.

I understand this to mean that taking a dove to a temple, or sacrificing an unblemished calf was. That was a physical work that had no saving properties in the act at all.

Certainly not to mix Christianity into this think back to when Abraham was going to sacrifice Isaac to God.
He was going to , yes from fear. I assume with great sadness, but also by his faith/belief in God. So God rewarded him for his willingness and provided an alternative.  Even though that would not save Abraham.

It is God's will for us to believe in Him and love Him. Belief and love simply cannot be called works.  Ergo. Jesus and Paul were both correct.


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Re: Works
« Reply #8 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 07:16:33 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Works
« Reply #9 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 07:18:00 »
Perhaps the entire philosophy of works is dependent on the mindset of the individual which only God knows. We cannot "work" our way into salvation, that is undisputed but at the same time our outward actions show the requirements of a man that has been saved by the grace of God, not in deceit for self serving purposes but with a genuine heart toward doing good deeds.
Jesus wasn't talking about outward actions showing the requirements of a man that has been saved.  He was talking about the outward actions showing the requirements of a man to be saved: "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life..."

It certainly seems to me that Jesus was telling them to "work" their way to salvation, i.e., eternal life.  My question again is how does Paul's teaching of not by works line up with that?

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Re: Works
« Reply #10 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 07:24:49 »
In my opinion Paul was not talking about believing in Jesus, or "believing " as a work.
It seems to me that Jesus contradicts that opinion in verse 29 which I posted, namely, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."   Clearly Jesus is saying that believing in Him, God, is a work, i.e., something that they were to do.

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Re: Works
« Reply #11 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 07:26:25 »
But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.
-Col.3


These are all free will choices that we have to make, this is work, work to enter rest.

Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. -Heb.4:11

« Last Edit: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 09:25:28 by BTR »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Works
« Reply #12 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 07:41:45 »
Question:

Can you give example(s) from current biblical translations or any translations going back to original Koine Greek  (Of which there is a fondness here to comment on specific meaning from thranslations)of where the word work was used, and how?

The problem, as I see it, is not if Jesus or Paul is right. The problem is misunderstanding how the word is used and until made clear will continue to confuse.

I don't believe it is a matter of how the word "work" or "works" is used.  I gave a brief summary of the Greek verb "ergazomai" in the OP.  The Greek noun is "ergon".  The meanings of both are quite straightforward and carry much the same meanings of the English equivalents.  The verb is an action word meaning to do, to labor, to toil, to work; the noun is by implication an act, a deed, a doing, a labor, a work.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works
« Reply #13 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 07:44:38 »
I am very disappointed.  So far it seems no one actually addressed the point of the OP.  Michael apparently didn't understand a thing that I posted; but instead went into some discussion about grace.  I do very much appreciate the element of grace involved in our receiving eternal life, but it has nothing to do with the subject of the OP.  GB reverted to his usual nonsense about the failed Levitical priesthood which has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of works whether as Jesus spoke about works or as Paul spoke about works.

In a nutshell, what we read in passages like John 6:26-29 is that Jesus tells us that we must work, i.e., we must do something, in order to obtain eternal life; while in passages like Ephesians 2:8-9 it seems that Paul tells us that no works, i.e., doing something, anything, will get us eternal life.

My question is who is right, Jesus or Paul? Or how can Jesus and Paul both be telling us the truth?

Weren't you just pointing out that Jesus identifies faith itself as a work in John 6:26-29? And that the expression “work of God” in John 6:29 is not referring to a work that God Himself does, but to a work that God requires us to do? And that you conclude that Paul's using the word works in relation to receiving salvation in Ephesians 2:8-9 is in a difference sense than when Jesus used the word works in John 6:26-29? But that without telling us, what that sense is. So, I have not much to comment on that. For I see nothing wrong in what you said there.

As for me, I looked at those passages, and I see no problem, no contradiction. And I just thought that whatever is the issue in the OP concerning "works", it will somehow be put off by showing the GRACE of God, for the reason that, salvation is not by works, not by faith, not by works and faith, of man, but that it is by GRACE, and that, of God. 

Now, if you had read my post and agree with it, I'd say the issue at the OP, in my opinion, becomes insignificant.

But anyway, let me go on and address your questions.

You said "My question is who is right, Jesus or Paul? Or how can Jesus and Paul both be telling us the truth?"

Both are right, and of course both are telling the truth.

Jesus speaks of believing in John 6:29 as a work, in the sense that it is required of the man to do.
In Eph. 2:9, when Paul speaks of works there, he mean works by the merit of which men may obtain favor with God.

There is no contradiction there, as I said.

 

Offline 4WD

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Re: Works
« Reply #14 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 07:47:36 »
Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved.....
I am not concerned here about what the work that one who has been saved should do.  I think there is not a lot of disagreement about that.  I am concerned about the "work" that Jesus spoke about doing to receive eternal life.  You can, as did Alan, argue that to believe is not a work, but Jesus's own words in John 6:29 refutes that argument.

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Works
« Reply #15 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 07:49:42 »
Paul is talking about works which are performed to earn salvation and teaches that for that to happen one must work perfectly--one sin is enough to disqualify one from this kind of salvation. He goes on to point out that all have sinned and therefore salvation is not by works (perfect doing).

James, on the other hand teaches... You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.  (James 2:24). James is talking about faith works, in other words, faith in God for forgiveness and obeying God as part of this trust.

There is no conflict between Jesus, Paul and James. 

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Re: Works
« Reply #16 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 07:55:00 »
Weren't you just pointing out that Jesus identifies faith itself as a work in John 6:26-29? And that the expression “work of God” in John 6:29 is not referring to a work that God Himself does, but to a work that God requires us to do? And that you conclude that Paul's using the word works in relation to receiving salvation in Ephesians 2:8-9 is in a difference sense than when Jesus used the word works in John 6:26-29? But that without telling us, what that sense is. So, I have not much to comment on that. For I see nothing wrong in what you said there.
But you have said over and over that there is nothing that we have to do to be saved; that it is not up to us at all and that it is only up to God who He saves.  Are you now saying that there is something that one must do to be saved, to be chosen by God as one He saves?  Both cannot be true.  Either God saves as a result of a work, or He saves without regard to any work. Both cannot be true.

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Re: Works
« Reply #17 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 08:04:16 »
Paul is talking about works which are performed to earn salvation and teaches that for that to happen one must work perfectly--one sin is enough to disqualify one from this kind of salvation. He goes on to point out that all have sinned and therefore salvation is not by works (perfect doing).

James, on the other hand teaches... You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.  (James 2:24). James is talking about faith works, in other words, faith in God for forgiveness and obeying God as part of this trust.

There is no conflict between Jesus, Paul and James.
I would agree with you, johntwayne, but that flies in the face of much, if not most, of Christendom. It flies in the face of the "Faith Alone" types and the "Reformed Theology" types. Both of these argue that doing something cannot possibly be a requirement to be saved.  They argue differently but still deny that there is any requirement presented as a condition that one must meet for being saved. They both argue that salvation is unconditional.  And they use passages such as Ephesians 2:8-9 as evidence and proof of that argument.

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Re: Works
« Reply #18 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 08:06:34 »
Perhaps the entire philosophy of works is dependent on the mindset of the individual which only God knows. We cannot "work" our way into salvation, that is undisputed but at the same time our outward actions show the requirements of a man that has been saved by the grace of God, not in deceit for self serving purposes but with a genuine heart toward doing good deeds.

This is exactly why we all argue back and forth. We are all at different stages of growth and are expressing our position, each failing to recognize the other.

Case in point, not to be offensive to an individual, but there is one who seems to have just crawled out of the crib.



After you labor to enter His rest (do what I pointed out in Col.3 this happens;

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
-Ezk. 36:26,27

Offline 4WD

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Re: Works
« Reply #19 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 08:09:18 »
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
-Ezk. 36:26,27
To whom doesn't that happen?  Hint:  It has nothing whatsoever to do with stages of growth, if by growth you are speaking about the Christian, the one who has been saved.
« Last Edit: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 08:12:00 by 4WD »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works
« Reply #20 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 08:14:20 »
But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.
-Col.3


These are all free will choices that we have to make, this is work, work to enter rest.

Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. -Heb.4:11

"have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him"........  According to God who created Jesus.

Those were all written to and for the Christians, who are already saved by grace, through faith. 

Though they are for them to do, they are not for them to do to be saved.


BTR, why do you ignore this?


AMAZING GRACE!

Jesus said:

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Jesus' sheep had been lost. Who are the sheep of Jesus?

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

They are of the descendants of Jacob, of the Israelites.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jesus also have other sheep that is not of the Israelites. Who are they?

Who else but of the Gentiles!

 
Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Jesus said concerning His lost sheep, of the Israelites and of the Gentiles, in John 10:27,

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

If you are Jesus' sheep, you will hear His voice, and will follow Him. If you are not His sheep, you won't hear His voice. If you are one of Jesus's lost sheep, Israelite or Gentile, don't you worry, He will definitely find you, and you will hear His voice.

It's GRACE!

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The Christians are the sheep of Jesus. God had created them anew in Christ Jesus. Unto good works God had created them. In good works that God had prepared beforehand for them to do.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Here's the voice of the Good Shepherd:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If you are one of His lost sheep, you hear His voice here. What are you waiting for?

HEAR and BELIEVE!

YOU HAD BEEN FOUND and are SAVED by your SHEPHERD JESUS CHRIST!

From now on, you won't ever be lost again!

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Works
« Reply #21 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 08:21:51 »

BTR, why do you ignore this?


AMAZING GRACE!

Jesus said:

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Jesus' sheep had been lost. Who are the sheep of Jesus?

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

They are of the descendants of Jacob, of the Israelites.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jesus also have other sheep that is not of the Israelites. Who are they?

Who else but of the Gentiles!

 
Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Jesus said concerning His lost sheep, of the Israelites and of the Gentiles, in John 10:27,

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

If you are Jesus' sheep, you will hear His voice, and will follow Him. If you are not His sheep, you won't hear His voice. If you are one of Jesus's lost sheep, Israelite or Gentile, don't you worry, He will definitely find you, and you will hear His voice.

It's GRACE!

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The Christians are the sheep of Jesus. God had created them anew in Christ Jesus. Unto good works God had created them. In good works that God had prepared beforehand for them to do.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Here's the voice of the Good Shepherd:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If you are one of His lost sheep, you hear His voice here. What are you waiting for?

HEAR and BELIEVE!

YOU HAD BEEN FOUND and are SAVED by your SHEPHERD JESUS CHRIST!

From now on, you won't ever be lost again!

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
No one is ignoring any of that.  But it has nothing to do with the question posed in the OP.  So why do you keep posting it?

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works
« Reply #22 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 08:25:33 »
But you have said over and over that there is nothing that we have to do to be saved; that it is not up to us at all and that it is only up to God who He saves.  Are you now saying that there is something that one must do to be saved, to be chosen by God as one He saves?  Both cannot be true.  Either God saves as a result of a work, or He saves without regard to any work. Both cannot be true.

If you read what I posted regarding GRACE in my first reply post to your OP, in there is my answer.

Of course, the believing is for man to do. But why they believe is another matter. While believing or faith is through which one is saved, it is by grace that they are saved, which is not something they do or is a work they do, but is God's. It is not that God saves them because they believe, but that they believe because God is saving them.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works
« Reply #23 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 08:28:28 »
No one is ignoring any of that.  But it has nothing to do with the question posed in the OP.  So why do you keep posting it?

Because, the grace of God puts off any issue with works and faith.

I believe that it is related to the OP. I would not have posted it if I believed it were not.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Works
« Reply #24 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 08:36:06 »
Because, the grace of God puts off any issue with works and faith.
Clearly that contradicts what Jesus said in John 6:26-29.  So then it would appear that you do not believe what Jesus told the crowd of people there.
Quote from: Michael
I believe that it is related to the OP. I would not have posted it if I believed it were not.
Just another indication of your lack of logical thinking.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Works
« Reply #25 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 08:41:43 »
Of course, the believing is for man to do. But why they believe is another matter. While believing or faith is through which one is saved, it is by grace that they are saved, which is not something they do or is a work they do, but is God's. It is not that God saves them because they believe, but that they believe because God is saving them.
That most definitely is not what Jesus said at all.  Clearly Jesus argued for the working of food that endures, not for food that perishes.  And that work is UNTO eternal life, to receive eternal life, in order to get eternal life.

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Re: Works
« Reply #26 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 08:45:30 »
Quote Michael2012 "It is not that God saves them because they believe, but that they believe because God is saving them.


This is wrong, You must believe first.

And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. -Heb.11:6

Offline 4WD

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Re: Works
« Reply #27 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 08:51:18 »
Quote Michael2012 "It is not that God saves them because they believe, but that they believe because God is saving them.


This is wrong, You must believe first.

And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. -Heb.11:6

AMEN!

+1

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works
« Reply #28 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 08:52:26 »
Quote from: Michael
Of course, the believing is for man to do. But why they believe is another matter. While believing or faith is through which one is saved, it is by grace that they are saved, which is not something they do or is a work they do, but is God's. It is not that God saves them because they believe, but that they believe because God is saving them.
That most definitely is not what Jesus said at all.  Clearly Jesus argued for the working of food that endures, not for food that perishes.  And that work is UNTO eternal life, to receive eternal life, in order to get eternal life.

My post regarding GRACE refutes your position there. Let me paste it here so you don't have to go back and read it. Please read carefully. And if you will, refute each for which you think is false.

It's GRACE!

Jesus said:

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Jesus' sheep had been lost. Who are the sheep of Jesus?

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

They are of the descendants of Jacob, of the Israelites.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jesus also have other sheep that is not of the Israelites. Who are they?

Who else but of the Gentiles!

 
Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Jesus said concerning His lost sheep, of the Israelites and of the Gentiles, in John 10:27,

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

If you are Jesus' sheep, you will hear His voice, and will follow Him. If you are not His sheep, you won't hear His voice. If you are one of Jesus's lost sheep, Israelite or Gentile, don't you worry, He will definitely find you, and you will hear His voice.

It's GRACE!

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The Christians are the sheep of Jesus. God had created them anew in Christ Jesus. Unto good works God had created them. In good works that God had prepared beforehand for them to do.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Here's the voice of the Good Shepherd:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If you are one of His lost sheep, you hear His voice here. What are you waiting for?

HEAR and BELIEVE!

YOU HAD BEEN FOUND and are SAVED by your SHEPHERD JESUS CHRIST!

From now on, you won't ever be lost again!

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works
« Reply #29 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 08:58:23 »
Quote Michael2012 "It is not that God saves them because they believe, but that they believe because God is saving them.


This is wrong, You must believe first.

And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. -Heb.11:6

I have shown you the grace of God concerning His salvation. And you haven't even said a word to refute it. What I posted regarding the grace of God refutes your position BTR. So, you have the right to refute my position. Here, I'll copy and paste it for your easy reference. Read it carefully. And if you will, refute each for which you think is false.

It's GRACE!

Jesus said:

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Jesus' sheep had been lost. Who are the sheep of Jesus?

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

They are of the descendants of Jacob, of the Israelites.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jesus also have other sheep that is not of the Israelites. Who are they?

Who else but of the Gentiles!

 
Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Jesus said concerning His lost sheep, of the Israelites and of the Gentiles, in John 10:27,

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

If you are Jesus' sheep, you will hear His voice, and will follow Him. If you are not His sheep, you won't hear His voice. If you are one of Jesus's lost sheep, Israelite or Gentile, don't you worry, He will definitely find you, and you will hear His voice.

It's GRACE!

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The Christians are the sheep of Jesus. God had created them anew in Christ Jesus. Unto good works God had created them. In good works that God had prepared beforehand for them to do.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Here's the voice of the Good Shepherd:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If you are one of His lost sheep, you hear His voice here. What are you waiting for?

HEAR and BELIEVE!

YOU HAD BEEN FOUND and are SAVED by your SHEPHERD JESUS CHRIST!

From now on, you won't ever be lost again!

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Works
« Reply #30 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 09:10:42 »
Michael, I think you need to define just what it means by saved by grace. Just how does that happen? What is that grace? Who is it for a select few or all mankind?

To my understanding the phrase saved by graces simply means it is Gods plan of salvation. It is for all mankind but has conditions to be met to live by the grace. If it is not conditional then all man would be saved for God wants all to come to repentance so therefore there is one condition there that sets man apart.

Saved by grace is simply Gods plan to save man in which men must meet the requirements and which Faith is one as well as as repentance and other requirements set by God. That is his graces he made available to all that accept the terms.

Yes we are saved by grace if we obey the terms given to enter into that grace.

Online GB

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Re: Works
« Reply #31 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 09:38:32 »
author=4WD link=topic=105660.msg1055158842#msg1055158842 date=1584873456]
Quote
I am very disappointed.  So far it seems no one actually addressed the point of the OP.    GB reverted to his usual nonsense about the failed Levitical priesthood which has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of works whether as Jesus spoke about works or as Paul spoke about works.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

It has everything to do with the religion that existed in Jesus' time. Jesus is speaking to those who had been led astray by the failed priesthood you ignore.


Quote
In a nutshell, what we read in passages like John 6:26-29 is that Jesus tells us that we must work, i.e., we must do something, in order to obtain eternal life; while in passages like Ephesians 2:8-9 it seems that Paul tells us that no works, i.e., doing something, anything, will get us eternal life.

It seems you should maybe think about considering all of Paul's teaching, it might help clear this up.

Rom. 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Rom. 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Paul teaches everyone "that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance".

The Blood is there, the Spirit is there, the Grace is there, His Word is there. We did nothing to make that happen. But we must "do" something with HIS Blood, His Spirit, His Grace, HIS Word, in order for it to benefit us. At least according to Jesus and Paul.

Quote
My question is who is right, Jesus or Paul? Or how can Jesus and Paul both be telling us the truth?


Paul is saying nothing different than Jesus. It's just that the religions of this land, like the religions of the land during their time, has corrupted their way.

Ignoring the religion that Jesus spent much of His Ministry rebuking, and Paul fought against in every epistle he wrote, does not seem wise. Remember, it was the so called Circumcision that killed Jesus in the first place, stoned Stephen to death, bewitched the Galatians, and rejected the Gentiles as without God and without hope in the world.

If our goal here is to discern truth of Paul's and Jesus' teaching, why would we ignore the teaching of the religion which led many of these same folks astray in the first place?

And what is the difference Spiritually between God giving Israel the Passover Lamb while they were still in Egypt (Which in my understanding symbolizes sin) and the Christ shedding His Blood for us while we were yet sinners?

And if HIS Blood represents HIS Grace, are we not to "DO" something with it? It seems the answer to this from both Paul and Jesus is the same. YES!!

« Last Edit: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 13:13:33 by GB »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Works
« Reply #32 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 09:40:18 »
Michael, I think you need to define just what it means by saved by grace. Just how does that happen? What is that grace? Who is it for a select few or all mankind?

To my understanding the phrase saved by graces simply means it is Gods plan of salvation. It is for all mankind but has conditions to be met to live by the grace. If it is not conditional then all man would be saved for God wants all to come to repentance so therefore there is one condition there that sets man apart.

Saved by grace is simply Gods plan to save man in which men must meet the requirements and which Faith is one as well as as repentance and other requirements set by God. That is his graces he made available to all that accept the terms.

Yes we are saved by grace if we obey the terms given to enter into that grace.

Select few no matter how you look at it.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Works
« Reply #33 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 09:47:44 »
Select few no matter how you look at it.
Please give me more insight as to what you mean or are saying with this response. Not that I disagree but want more insight as to your thoughts on this response. I do not want to put words in your mouth but wish to hear your thoughts so that I can fully understand your thoughts and not have to insert what I think you mean.

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Re: Works
« Reply #34 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 09:49:08 »
I would agree with you, johntwayne, but that flies in the face of much, if not most, of Christendom. It flies in the face of the "Faith Alone" types and the "Reformed Theology" types. Both of these argue that doing something cannot possibly be a requirement to be saved.  They argue differently but still deny that there is any requirement presented as a condition that one must meet for being saved. They both argue that salvation is unconditional.  And they use passages such as Ephesians 2:8-9 as evidence and proof of that argument.

It really does not fly in the face of the reformed.  True reformed teaching is that those who are saved will ensure to the end.  True faith produces fruit, aka works.  Many "faith alone" types believe the same overall as johntwayne presented.


 

     
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