Author Topic: Works  (Read 1436 times)

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Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Works
« Reply #35 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 09:52:53 »
Please give me more insight as to what you mean or are saying with this response. Not that I disagree but want more insight as to your thoughts on this response. I do not want to put words in your mouth but wish to hear your thoughts so that I can fully understand your thoughts and not have to insert what I think you mean.

If you believe in predestination that means God chose certain people.  That means it is selective and few.

If you believe it is available to all and predestination means God knew who would obey His commands for faith in Him and all that entails, the result is still selective and few.

Scripture itself says wide is the path to destruction, and narrow is the path to eternal life.

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Re: Works
« Reply #35 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 09:52:53 »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Works
« Reply #36 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 10:44:03 »
If you believe in predestination that means God chose certain people.  That means it is selective and few.

If you believe it is available to all and predestination means God knew who would obey His commands for faith in Him and all that entails, the result is still selective and few.

Scripture itself says wide is the path to destruction, and narrow is the path to eternal life.
TC I believe our understanding of  predestination differs. I do believe God predetermined his plan of salvation but do not think it would be defined as you said  "predestination means God knew who would obey His commands for faith in Him and all that entails"although I agree that He knew who would and would not that does not refute the fact that the offer is to all.

As you said scripture states " wide is the path to destruction, and narrow is the path to eternal life" that is a conditional statement in which all has the offer to accept or reject. The call is for all mankind how mankind handles it is their own free will.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Works
« Reply #37 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 10:45:29 »
Okay 4WD I am sorry I sidetracked you post sorry about that back to topic.

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Re: Works
« Reply #37 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 10:45:29 »

Offline seekingHiswisdom

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Re: Works
« Reply #38 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 11:31:06 »
It seems to me that Jesus contradicts that opinion in verse 29 which I posted, namely, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."   Clearly Jesus is saying that believing in Him, God, is a work, i.e., something that they were to do.

OK... Devil's advocate here.

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Why could this not mean that this is God's work that God cause those the draws to believe in Him?

KJV
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

NKJV

 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

VS 27 and 28 says

27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

And they are told believe.

If believing is a work.

What else is?

Is love a work?

Certainly being baptized is as that requires physical effort.

I just do not see believing as a work.

Now, if you were to argue that labor .............. for the food which endures to everlasting life is what is meant, then I would agree that without seeking and searching and even studying to show thyself approved
would be foolish.

2 Tim 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I would agree. But that is not what is said.

I guess for me believing and faith just are effortless and require nothing but my loving God.



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Re: Works
« Reply #38 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 11:31:06 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Works
« Reply #39 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 12:08:05 »
OK... Devil's advocate here.

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Why could this not mean that this is God's work that God cause those the draws to believe in Him?
Because Jesus' answer is in response to their question, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" Clearly they were asking what must they do and Jesus' answer is that they believe. In the meaning of the Greek word "ergon", believing is a work;  Jesus called it a work.

Quote from: seekingHiswisdom[size=10pt
I guess for me believing and faith just are effortless and require nothing but my loving God.[/size]
Loving God is something you do.  Believing is something you do.  Faith in something is believing in that something.  If you do not think loving is a work and if you are married, I can almost guarantee it isn't a very good marriage. Sometimes loving a husband or a wife is one of the hardest things you will every have to do.

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Re: Works
« Reply #39 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 12:08:05 »



Offline 4WD

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Re: Works
« Reply #40 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 12:15:27 »
That most definitely is not what Jesus said at all.  Clearly Jesus argued for the working of food that endures, not for food that perishes.  And that work is UNTO eternal life, to receive eternal life, in order to get eternal life.


My post regarding GRACE refutes your position there. Let me paste it here so you don't have to go back and read it. Please read carefully. And if you will, refute each for which you think is false.

It's GRACE!

Jesus said:

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Jesus' sheep had been lost. Who are the sheep of Jesus?

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

They are of the descendants of Jacob, of the Israelites.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jesus also have other sheep that is not of the Israelites. Who are they?

Who else but of the Gentiles!

 
Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Jesus said concerning His lost sheep, of the Israelites and of the Gentiles, in John 10:27,

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

If you are Jesus' sheep, you will hear His voice, and will follow Him. If you are not His sheep, you won't hear His voice. If you are one of Jesus's lost sheep, Israelite or Gentile, don't you worry, He will definitely find you, and you will hear His voice.

It's GRACE!

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The Christians are the sheep of Jesus. God had created them anew in Christ Jesus. Unto good works God had created them. In good works that God had prepared beforehand for them to do.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Here's the voice of the Good Shepherd:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If you are one of His lost sheep, you hear His voice here. What are you waiting for?

HEAR and BELIEVE!

YOU HAD BEEN FOUND and are SAVED by your SHEPHERD JESUS CHRIST!

From now on, you won't ever be lost again!

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
I get that. I don't deny that.  So tell me, do you have to do anything to be saved?  Jesus said you do.  Do you believe what Jesus said?

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Re: Works
« Reply #40 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 12:15:27 »

Offline seekingHiswisdom

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Re: Works
« Reply #41 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 13:50:39 »
Because Jesus' answer is in response to their question, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" Clearly they were asking what must they do and Jesus' answer is that they believe. In the meaning of the Greek word "ergon", believing is a work;  Jesus called it a work.
Loving God is something you do.  Believing is something you do.  Faith in something is believing in that something.  If you do not think loving is a work and if you are married, I can almost guarantee it isn't a very good marriage. Sometimes loving a husband or a wife is one of the hardest things you will every have to do.

The Lord in His wisdom has blessed me by keeping me single.  Even though that road is very hard, at times, also.

We are commanded to Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

And is a separate love then what a man and woman have for each other. But again is a work.

Therefore... boys and girls.... looks like the Catholics have had it right all along.

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Works
« Reply #42 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 13:56:21 »
I would agree with you, johntwayne, but that flies in the face of much, if not most, of Christendom. It flies in the face of the "Faith Alone" types and the "Reformed Theology" types. Both of these argue that doing something cannot possibly be a requirement to be saved.  They argue differently but still deny that there is any requirement presented as a condition that one must meet for being saved. They both argue that salvation is unconditional.  And they use passages such as Ephesians 2:8-9 as evidence and proof of that argument.

Oh, that's easy, they're wrong.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works
« Reply #43 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 14:08:18 »
I get that. I don't deny that.  So tell me, do you have to do anything to be saved?  Jesus said you do.  Do you believe what Jesus said?

That's good.

Now, do I have to do anything to be saved?

If you really understood what I've written there in my post, you won't be asking me this question. It is God who seeks out the lost sheep. And finding them, He will; and He will call them. Scriptures even tell us He calls them by name. And the sheep hears His voice. The moment the lost sheep is found, he is already saved. For certainly he will hear his Shepherd's voice and will follow Him. But following Him is not why the sheep is saved, but that the sheep follows because he had been found and is saved.



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Re: Works
« Reply #43 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 14:08:18 »

Offline RB

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Re: Works
« Reply #44 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 14:15:12 »
I am very disappointed.  So far it seems no one actually addressed the point of the OP. 
You will no longer be disappointed for I will assure you that I will deal exclusively with the subject that you requested, maybe tomorrow Mr. 4WD. Get your sword to sharpen and plenty of sleep.  ::smile:: 

Offline RB

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Re: Works
« Reply #45 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 14:19:02 »
The Lord in His wisdom has blessed me by keeping me single.
Maybe, just maybe he was being merciful to men...... ::smile:: You seem to be a very strong will woman. We love you nevertheless.  ::kissing::

Offline 4WD

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Re: Works
« Reply #46 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 14:50:24 »
That's good.

Now, do I have to do anything to be saved?

If you really understood what I've written there in my post, you won't be asking me this question. It is God who seeks out the lost sheep. And finding them, He will; and He will call them. Scriptures even tell us He calls them by name. And the sheep hears His voice. The moment the lost sheep is found, he is already saved. For certainly he will hear his Shepherd's voice and will follow Him. But following Him is not why the sheep is saved, but that the sheep follows because he had been found and is saved.
So you do not believe what Jesus said.  Interesting, but not surprising.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Works
« Reply #47 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 14:52:40 »
You will no longer be disappointed for I will assure you that I will deal exclusively with the subject that you requested, maybe tomorrow Mr. 4WD. Get your sword to sharpen and plenty of sleep.  ::smile::
As always, RB, I look forward to what you have to say.

Offline seekingHiswisdom

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Re: Works
« Reply #48 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 15:09:21 »
Maybe, just maybe he was being merciful to men...... ::smile:: You seem to be a very strong will woman. We love you nevertheless.  ::kissing::

Quote from: RB on Sat Mar 14, 2020 - 13:17:13
Quote
Spiritually speaking you are~but, that does not mean that I do you love you, I have sisters and brothers of flesh and blood that Know that I KNOW that they have a pestilence disease of spiritual madness, much like Balaam.

I  shall leave this topic. I certainly would not want my spiritual madness to interfere with the boys playing with the boys.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works
« Reply #49 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 16:37:29 »
Quote from: Michael
That's good.

Now, do I have to do anything to be saved?

If you really understood what I've written there in my post, you won't be asking me this question. It is God who seeks out the lost sheep. And finding them, He will; and He will call them. Scriptures even tell us He calls them by name. And the sheep hears His voice. The moment the lost sheep is found, he is already saved. For certainly he will hear his Shepherd's voice and will follow Him. But following Him is not why the sheep is saved, but that the sheep follows because he had been found and is saved.
So you do not believe what Jesus said.  Interesting, but not surprising.

I have already explained. And so, if you want to see it that way, then it shall be with you. Your conclusion is your own.

Online Jaime

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Re: Works
« Reply #50 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 17:06:59 »
Has their been a case where someone’s conclusion here has NOT been their own? Michael you seem to infer that this is new here amongst the forum members.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Works
« Reply #51 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 19:13:58 »
Quote from: RB on Sat Mar 14, 2020 - 13:17:13
I  shall leave this topic. I certainly would not want my spiritual madness to interfere with the boys playing with the boys.
Please stay and contribute.  I don't always agree with you, but I do enjoy your participation.

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Re: Works
« Reply #52 on: Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 19:18:15 »
If you really understood what I've written there in my post, you won't be asking me this question.
To be perfectly frank with you, so much of the time I can't understand what you have written in your posts.  Often, as in this topic, your posts have little or nothing to do with the topic at hand. The topic is not about grace.  Grace is a given for this discussion, Michael.

Offline RB

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Re: Works
« Reply #53 on: Mon Mar 23, 2020 - 02:54:00 »
Please stay and contribute.  I don't always agree with you, but I do enjoy your participation.
Sis will be back as always with a little more firepower. She KNOWS that I think a lot of her, and you only pick on people you like, that's why I pick on her. You avoid people you do not like.

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Re: Works
« Reply #54 on: Mon Mar 23, 2020 - 03:03:51 »
I  shall leave this topic. I certainly would not want my spiritual madness to interfere with the boys playing with the boys.
If you are going to play with the boys, remember this.....boys can get into a fistfight one day and the next day act as though it never happened, you must learn to play as they do. Girls do not have this manhood, or more so childhood male quality~if you crossed a female, you just may lose a friend forever.  Even my wife has told me this to which I agree. You most likely agree also. I have a hug waiting on you when you desire it.  ::hug::

Offline RB

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Re: Works
« Reply #55 on: Mon Mar 23, 2020 - 05:58:18 »
I think most of us would answer that Paul did not contradict Jesus.  So then we must conclude, unlike so many Christians today, that Paul's using the word works in relation to receiving salvation in Ephesians 2:8-9 and elsewhere in a different sense than Jesus did in John 6:26-29.  It behooves us to understand that difference.
Not so fast my friend, not so fast with your conclusion.

I know that actually they are used in the same sense in both in John 6:29 and Ephesians 2:8,9. Ephesians 2:8,9 later, but first let us consider John 6:29 and the context from which we find those words recorded for us.

While I agree with you that faith is a work, I do not believe John 6:29 teaches this but would use such scripture as this one to proving that position:
Quote
Matthew 23:23~"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Using faith as a work of the law is without question taught by Jesus in Matthew 23:23, but not so in John 6:28. Let me prove my point as clear as I can, which may not be good enough for some people, some it will, most it will not.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 6:29~"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."
"This is the work of God"~When we have prepositional phrases like this, the context must determine the sense for us. The words, work of God, could be God doing the work, or, the words may mean man working for God as you are beliving.

If we read the WHOLE DISCOURSE and the rest of the teaching in this chapter , then there is no question that Jesus is speaking about God's works in the regeneration of the sinner in drawing him to himself!
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 6:36-47~"But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; (THE WORK OF GOD) and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."
He adds more:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 6:44-47~"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: (THE WORK OF GOD) and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, (THE WORK OF THE FATHER) cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
And one more:
Quote
John 6:65~"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father".
Again 4WD, the work of the Father!
Quote from: 4WD Sat Mar 21, 2020 - 08:45:21
It behooves us to understand that difference.
Indeed it does. As far as the salvation of a sinner from sin and condemnation, it takes the power of God in quickening a dead sinner to life per Ephesians 1:19, etc. As far as our faith it is a work on our part to INCREASE and grow using the power of the new man within us through the Spirit that dwells in the new man. 
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 23, 2020 - 06:03:35 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Works
« Reply #56 on: Mon Mar 23, 2020 - 06:12:07 »
If you are going to play with the boys, remember this.....boys can get into a fistfight one day and the next day act as though it never happened, you must learn to play as they do. Girls do not have this manhood, or more so childhood male quality~if you crossed a female, you just may lose a friend forever.  Even my wife has told me this to which I agree. You most likely agree also. I have a hug waiting on you when you desire it.  ::hug::
Some of you may be familiar with a man whose name is Jordan Peterson. Peterson (born June 12, 1962) is a Canadian author, clinical psychologist, and scholar who is a professor of psychology at the University of Toronto. He is also an author, produces YouTube videos and podcasts, and has outspoken views on gender identity, masculinity and many other subjects.  You can find him on YouTube and he has authored a couple of books. He makes that same point as you, RB. very strongly.  Look him up.   He is very much against the Leftist push that is going on in the western societies today,  He has a very interesting take on much of the Bible also.  When asked if he believes in God, he answers that he tries to live as if he believes in God and has given long discussions why that is.

RB, that male quality you identified is not a childhood male quality; rather it is a very important fact or characteristic of the adult male of the human being.  It is not a fault.  It, like all other human characteristics, only needs to be controlled.

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Re: Works
« Reply #57 on: Mon Mar 23, 2020 - 06:53:05 »
Some of you may be familiar with a man whose name is Jordan Peterson. Peterson (born June 12, 1962) is a Canadian author, clinical psychologist, and scholar who is a professor of psychology at the University of Toronto. He is also an author, produces YouTube videos and podcasts, and has outspoken views on gender identity, masculinity and many other subjects.  You can find him on YouTube and he has authored a couple of books. He makes that same point as you, RB. very strongly.  Look him up.   He is very much against the Leftist push that is going on in the western societies today,  He has a very interesting take on much of the Bible also.  When asked if he believes in God, he answers that he tries to live as if he believes in God and has given long discussions why that is.

RB, that male quality you identified is not a childhood male quality; rather it is a very important fact or characteristic of the adult male of the human being.  It is not a fault.  It, like all other human characteristics, only needs to be controlled.
I'm looking him up now~Thanks

Offline 4WD

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Re: Works
« Reply #58 on: Mon Mar 23, 2020 - 07:35:41 »
Not so fast my friend, not so fast with your conclusion.

I know that actually they are used in the same sense in both in John 6:29 and Ephesians 2:8,9. Ephesians 2:8,9 later, but first let us consider John 6:29 and the context from which we find those words recorded for us.

While I agree with you that faith is a work, I do not believe John 6:29 teaches this but would use such scripture as this one to proving that position:Using faith as a work of the law is without question taught by Jesus in Matthew 23:23, but not so in John 6:28. Let me prove my point as clear as I can, which may not be good enough for some people, some it will, most it will not. "This is the work of God"~When we have prepositional phrases like this, the context must determine the sense for us. The words, work of God, could be God doing the work, or, the words may mean man working for God as you are beliving.
That is a common take on the passage.  It is interesting that you speak about context.  To the very point of context, it is in direct answer to the question put forth by those in the crowd listening to them.  This event follows after the feeding of the five thousand (v.10) and the account of Jesus' walking on the water (v.19).  The crowd sought him out and when they found him they said to Him,  "Rabbi, when did you come here?" (v.25) The account about work then follows:

Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves.  Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you....." (John 6:26-27). 

This answer is clearly directed at the crowd and discusses what it is that they are to do, i.e., the work they must do.  Jesus is not talking here about work that God does or that He needs to do. Seeing that the subject of eternal life is in play, the question that comes from the crowd is (KJV) What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? (v.28). There can be no doubt what they were asking.  I like the way the NIV has framed verse 28: "What must we do to do the works God requires?" And this from translators who by and large promote Faith Alone soteriology.  Clearly they were asking what they needed to do, not what God needed to do. Jesus' answer is the straightforward answer to their question.  He said, (KJV)"This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." Jesus is telling them that the work that they must do is for them to believe in Jesus.  This is not something God does.  It is without question something that they must do.  And it is not working for God; it is working that brings them eternal life.  Now that is the context.

Quote from: RB
If we read the WHOLE DISCOURSE and the rest of the teaching in this chapter , then there is no question that Jesus is speaking about God's works in the regeneration of the sinner in drawing him to himself!
Actually in the rest of the WHOLE DISCOURSE there is not one word of WORK, WORKS, or REGENERATION as such.

The discussion that follows continues to deal with the aftermath of feeding of the five thousand and speaks in the context of food, i.e., bread.  Jesus said, speaking of Himself,  "the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." To this, they in the crowd said to Jesus,  "Lord, always give us this bread."(v.34) Jesus' answer to their request was "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst." (v.35) Clearly the recipient of this bread is, according to Jesus, whoever comes to me and "whoever believes in me"  So then any way you cut it coming to Jesus and believing in Jesus are the requirements, the conditions, for the life He gives to the world.

RB, you can turn all of this around and try to call it something that God does, but that is counter context.  And the rest of your post is just that, totally against the context.

I know that you are fond of the John 6:44 and following.  It is interesting that you have to insert phrase "(THE WORK OF GOD)" in particular places to swing the discussion.  But the simple fact is that everything that follows speaks to what Jesus told the crowd they, not God, must do, i.e., the "work" which they must do:

"whoever believes has eternal life" (v.47)
"one may eat of it and not die" (v.50)
"If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever" (v.51)
"Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life" (v.56)
"whoever feeds on me, he also will live" (v.57)
"Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever" (v.58)

Offline seekingHiswisdom

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Re: Works
« Reply #59 on: Mon Mar 23, 2020 - 07:42:47 »
Look 4WD and RB... and all else this applies to.

My deepest apologies for ever venturing into this specific forum.

It is not my place to question your beliefs.

While GC is not a church I am commanded to ask my husband at home.(1 Cor 14:35)  I can only assume that means if one has no husband then one has no need to know.

It certainly is not my place to offer an opinion.

Yes, RB I usually am a strong woman. While abuses through out life either makes or breaks you... I ride the fence on this one.

With that I shall leave this thread, and God willing ,will attempt to keep my mouth shut in the future. And more so to avoid reading it as that is what spurs me into action.

Again I apologize.

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Works
« Reply #60 on: Mon Mar 23, 2020 - 07:54:38 »
Look 4WD and RB... and all else this applies to.

My deepest apologies for ever venturing into this specific forum.

It is not my place to question your beliefs.

While GC is not a church I am commanded to ask my husband at home.(1 Cor 14:35)  I can only assume that means if one has no husband then one has no need to know.

It certainly is not my place to offer an opinion.

Yes, RB I usually am a strong woman. While abuses through out life either makes or breaks you... I ride the fence on this one.

With that I shall leave this thread, and God willing ,will attempt to keep my mouth shut in the future. And more so to avoid reading it as that is what spurs me into action.

Again I apologize.

You are more than welcome to continue with responding to theological topics.  But if you want to venture into the domain of mostly men, you might want to check your feelings at the door.

Many men can verbally joust, appear to be conducting a weighty battle, and at the end of the day hold no great animosity for their opponent.  If you cannot do that, perhaps it is better for you not to engage.

If you can check your feelings at the door, by all means, provide a different perspective.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Works
« Reply #61 on: Mon Mar 23, 2020 - 07:54:47 »
Look 4WD and RB... and all else this applies to.

My deepest apologies for ever venturing into this specific forum.

It is not my place to question your beliefs.

While GC is not a church I am commanded to ask my husband at home.(1 Cor 14:35)  I can only assume that means if one has no husband then one has no need to know.

It certainly is not my place to offer an opinion.
Do not apologize!  Of course it is your place to question our or anyone's beliefs.  That is a large part of what the forum is all about.

And it most definitely is your place to offer an opinion.  Again, that is a large part of what the forum is about.

And for what it is worth, it never occurred to me to consider whether you were a man or a woman.  In most cases I try to deal with what is posted independent of whether a man or a woman posts it.  And frankly, I didn't even realize that you were a woman. So the fact that you are is all rather immaterial to any of my interactions with you.  If you have indicated in the past that you are a woman, then I missed it.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works
« Reply #62 on: Thu Mar 26, 2020 - 03:28:32 »
To be perfectly frank with you, so much of the time I can't understand what you have written in your posts.  Often, as in this topic, your posts have little or nothing to do with the topic at hand. The topic is not about grace.  Grace is a given for this discussion, Michael.

If it is, I don't see why you talk about works outside the light of grace. For it is a given that man can only do works for as long as he is alive. Even that is grace. But there are works that man can't do if not of the grace of God.

Consider your topic verse:

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Scriptures says, "Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

How shall people call on God in whom they have not believed?
How shall people believe in God of whom they have not heard?
How shall people hear without a preacher?

How can man do all those things (hear, believe, call) if God had not graciously sent them a preacher?

And to those who preach, how shall they preach, except they be sent? That's God's grace 4WD. Do you see now, why I say that even while we talk about works, works that one should do and not do, at the end of the day, it all goes back to God's grace.

For it is God who is the sovereign creator, and there is no other. God, gracious and wise, is Him who have chosen and predestined a people unto salvation, to be His people, to be the new mankind. God is Him who works all these things out. God is Him who sustains all that He ever created. Creation was by Him and about Him and for Him. Never for once think that God owes anything to what He created, or needs man in any way, shape, or form, or needs or wants his decision or counsel. It is the other way around. It is creation and man who needs God in everything.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Works
« Reply #63 on: Thu Mar 26, 2020 - 05:03:26 »
If it is, I don't see why you talk about works outside the light of grace.
I know you don't.  That is because you don't know what either Jesus or Paul was talking about when they spoke of works.  And you are not alone in that biblical ignorance.  That is why I started the topic.

It is not about grace.  If you want to discuss grace start a new topic.



Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works
« Reply #64 on: Thu Mar 26, 2020 - 06:07:07 »
I know you don't.  That is because you don't know what either Jesus or Paul was talking about when they spoke of works.  And you are not alone in that biblical ignorance.  That is why I started the topic.

It is not about grace.  If you want to discuss grace start a new topic.
Works with you and grace with me. Very well then. I am out of here.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Works
« Reply #65 on: Thu Mar 26, 2020 - 06:36:22 »
Works with you and grace with me.
That truly is offensive and disgusting. SHAME on you Michael.

Offline Johnb

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Re: Works
« Reply #66 on: Thu Mar 26, 2020 - 07:52:21 »
4WD,JTW and Jaime  Paul was right, James was right, Peter was right, Jesus was right,  the Author of Acts was right.  You see we came from a background that actually believes 2 Timothy 3:16,17 while so many others want to pick and choose what is a commandment and what is classified as a work and what is not.  It is scripture that sets the conditions of accepting the free gift of God not what I think or I believe this verse but not this one. 

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works
« Reply #67 on: Thu Mar 26, 2020 - 08:03:01 »
Quote from: Michael
Quote from: 4WD
I know you don't.  That is because you don't know what either Jesus or Paul was talking about when they spoke of works.  And you are not alone in that biblical ignorance.  That is why I started the topic.

It is not about grace.  If you want to discuss grace start a new topic.
Works with you and grace with me.
That truly is offensive and disgusting. SHAME on you Michael.

I am sorry if you found offense in that 4WD. Perhaps, it's the poor language. But if you take that in context, my statement meant no offense. It was meant to say that I would stay out of your "works" topic here, as you wanted for me to take my ignorance and discussion about grace elsewhere by starting my own "grace" thread.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Works
« Reply #68 on: Thu Mar 26, 2020 - 08:19:31 »
Works with you and grace with me.
That truly is offensive and disgusting. SHAME on you Michael.


I am sorry if you found offense in that 4WD. Perhaps, it's the poor language. But if you take that in context, my statement meant no offense. It was meant to say that I would stay out of your "works" topic here, as you wanted for me to take my ignorance and discussion about grace elsewhere by starting my own "grace" thread.
And once again your irrational thinking shows up.  I said not one word about your, or anyone else's, ignorance about grace. I said only that the topic was not about grace.  I said nothing about what you or anyone thought about it.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works
« Reply #69 on: Thu Mar 26, 2020 - 08:32:15 »
Quote from: Michael
I am sorry if you found offense in that 4WD. Perhaps, it's the poor language. But if you take that in context, my statement meant no offense. It was meant to say that I would stay out of your "works" topic here, as you wanted for me to take my ignorance and discussion about grace elsewhere by starting my own "grace" thread.
And once again your irrational thinking shows up.  I said not one word about your, or anyone else's, ignorance about grace. I said only that the topic was not about grace.  I said nothing about what you or anyone thought about it.

I was talking about what you say my ignorance about "works" not about grace. And I was talking about my discussion about grace.

You are always quick to accuse me of being irrational or at least make it appear that that I am an irrational man. Why? Because you are always rational and never was irrational? Because you consider yourself better? If that is all you want, it's all yours sir. I don't want any of that.

 

     
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