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Offline GB

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Works of the Law
« on: Fri Oct 25, 2019 - 13:21:37 »
Gal. 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This verse is used by many to teach that obedience to God is not a requirement for Salvation. This is one of the foundation blocks of most mainstream religions.

Since I have learned the scriptures outside the influence of modern religions, I see the scriptures differently and would like to have a discussion about this verse. I would like to ask some questions and post some scriptures. I am not trying to promote any religion, rather, to have an honest discussions about what the Bible says.

What is a Jew by nature?

Rom. 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

So a Natural Jew would be someone who had the Oracles (an utterance from God) of God.

So then this would mean these Jews were sinners who had the Old Testament writings and Word's of God while the Gentiles were sinners who didn't.

So in the oracles of God, what was the "LAW" that was followed for atonement of justification of sins?

Lev. 4:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:

3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.

4 And he shall bring the bullock unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD; and shall lay his hand upon the bullock's head, and kill the bullock before the LORD.

5 And the priest that is anointed shall take of the bullock's blood, and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation:

So according to this understanding, the Natural Jews who were sinners, were to take an animal to the priest who would then kill the animal and perform "Work's of the Law" to atone for the Natural Jews sins.

20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it (the sin) shall be forgiven them.

So the Natural Jews, who didn't believe Jesus was the Unblemished Lamb of God, the Prophesied Messiah, were still performing and relying on these "Works of the Law" for justification of sins (Transgressions of God's Law).

But I have heard countless people, who come in Christ's Name, who preach that the "Works of the Law" Paul is speaking to here are not those sacrificial Laws God created for atonement "Till the Seed should come", rather, the 10 Commandments, and other "Oracles" of God.

What were the "sins" of the Gentiles? Were they also called sinners because they transgressed God's Commandments? Weren't the Natural Jews telling the Gentiles that they were required to rely on the "Works of the Law" God created for atonement of sins, instead of telling them the truth Zechariahs and Simeon knew, which was that Jesus was the High Priest who gave His own life for atonement of our sins and these Old Testament sacrifices was a "shadow" of His Coming? 

How is it these "works of the Law" for atonement, went from animal sacrifice to obeying any Commandment of God?




 

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Works of the Law
« on: Fri Oct 25, 2019 - 13:21:37 »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #1 on: Fri Oct 25, 2019 - 16:03:42 »
GB,
Quote
How is it these "works of the Law" for atonement, went from animal sacrifice to obeying any Commandment of God?
Cultural phenomena of a bellef system hijacking concepts for their own purposes.

Offline GB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #2 on: Fri Oct 25, 2019 - 16:22:38 »
GB,Cultural phenomena of a bellef system hijacking concepts for their own purposes.

It would certainly seem that way. It's for sure the Word of God didn't promote such a teaching.

I am encouraged I am not alone in my observations.

Thank you.

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #2 on: Fri Oct 25, 2019 - 16:22:38 »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #3 on: Fri Oct 25, 2019 - 17:39:28 »
GB,
Yup, you're certainly not the only one. Many have undertaken the labor to carefully separate the scriptures from the various narratives that people have attached to them. And works of the law is one of them. Although I don't see that one as prominent as it used to be.
« Last Edit: Fri Oct 25, 2019 - 17:41:55 by e.r.m. »

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #3 on: Fri Oct 25, 2019 - 17:39:28 »

Offline GB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #4 on: Fri Oct 25, 2019 - 17:56:24 »
GB,
Yup, you're certainly not the only one. Many have undertaken the labor to carefully separate the scriptures from the various narratives that people have attached to them. And works of the law is one of them. Although I don't see that one as prominent as it used to be.

Maybe the fact that you and I are even willing to discuss this ancient religious doctrine is proof that you may be right.

May God reveal all these hidden measures of "Leaven" so deeply imbedded in religious tradition.

Eph. 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Thanks again for your encouraging words.

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #4 on: Fri Oct 25, 2019 - 17:56:24 »



Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #5 on: Fri Oct 25, 2019 - 18:09:13 »
You're welcome GB. I am similarly encouraged.

Another such case is where they turn Matthew 10:32-33 into a one time public announcement of one's faith in Christ after being saved, instead of an ongoing willingness to affirm our faith whenever and wherever.
« Last Edit: Fri Oct 25, 2019 - 18:49:34 by e.r.m. »

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #5 on: Fri Oct 25, 2019 - 18:09:13 »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #6 on: Fri Oct 25, 2019 - 18:46:07 »
Gal. 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This verse is used by many to teach that obedience to God is not a requirement for Salvation. This is one of the foundation blocks of most mainstream religions.

Since I have learned the scriptures outside the influence of modern religions, I see the scriptures differently and would like to have a discussion about this verse. I would like to ask some questions and post some scriptures. I am not trying to promote any religion, rather, to have an honest discussions about what the Bible says.

What is a Jew by nature?

Rom. 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

So a Natural Jew would be someone who had the Oracles (an utterance from God) of God.

So then this would mean these Jews were sinners who had the Old Testament writings and Word's of God while the Gentiles were sinners who didn't.

So in the oracles of God, what was the "LAW" that was followed for atonement of justification of sins?

Lev. 4:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:

3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.

4 And he shall bring the bullock unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD; and shall lay his hand upon the bullock's head, and kill the bullock before the LORD.

5 And the priest that is anointed shall take of the bullock's blood, and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation:

So according to this understanding, the Natural Jews who were sinners, were to take an animal to the priest who would then kill the animal and perform "Work's of the Law" to atone for the Natural Jews sins.

20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it (the sin) shall be forgiven them.

So the Natural Jews, who didn't believe Jesus was the Unblemished Lamb of God, the Prophesied Messiah, were still performing and relying on these "Works of the Law" for justification of sins (Transgressions of God's Law).

But I have heard countless people, who come in Christ's Name, who preach that the "Works of the Law" Paul is speaking to here are not those sacrificial Laws God created for atonement "Till the Seed should come", rather, the 10 Commandments, and other "Oracles" of God.

What were the "sins" of the Gentiles? Were they also called sinners because they transgressed God's Commandments? Weren't the Natural Jews telling the Gentiles that they were required to rely on the "Works of the Law" God created for atonement of sins, instead of telling them the truth Zechariahs and Simeon knew, which was that Jesus was the High Priest who gave His own life for atonement of our sins and these Old Testament sacrifices was a "shadow" of His Coming? 

How is it these "works of the Law" for atonement, went from animal sacrifice to obeying any Commandment of God?

Ephesians 2:8-10 says salvation is not of works.  As a new creation in Christ Jesus, we are to do the works Jesus prepared for us.

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #7 on: Fri Oct 25, 2019 - 18:48:53 »
GB,Cultural phenomena of a bellef system hijacking concepts for their own purposes.

You believe in works based salvation now?  What percentage of salvation do your works earn?  1%. 5%. More?

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #8 on: Fri Oct 25, 2019 - 19:10:37 »
Texas Conservative,
No, and that wasn't the premise. The premise is that a work of of the Old Testament law is not defined as obeying a command.

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #8 on: Fri Oct 25, 2019 - 19:10:37 »

Offline GB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #9 on: Fri Oct 25, 2019 - 19:32:15 »
Ephesians 2:8-10 says salvation is not of works.  As a new creation in Christ Jesus, we are to do the works Jesus prepared for us.

Yes, True Faith is walking in the Works God has before ordained that we should walk in them. As opposed to the Works we walking in before Faith.

Eph. 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Would you agree with Jesus that the Pharisees were "Children of Disobedience"?

But we are supposed to "Repent" (change) our walk. Not according to "OUR MIND", or OUR ancient religious doctrines, with OUR walk. But we are to deny "ourselves" and Follow Him. Walk even as He walked, walk in the "works" God before ordained that we should walk in.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of (Man's) works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Paul says the exact same thing in Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

And to the point of this thread, not the "doers" of the Laws of Atonement God Added to His Commandments "Till the Seed should come".

I'm not sure what your point is here.







 








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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #10 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 06:48:30 »
It would certainly seem that way. It's for sure the Word of God didn't promote such a teaching.

I am encouraged I am not alone in my observations.

Thank you.
GB, the truth is you are not alone, but everyone who rejects, the doctrine of "unconditional" election of grace (which is precise the definition of election) believes the same gospel you hold to~they may indeed use different words in supporting their gospel, but, when it is all said and done, there are no differences between you and them. By God's help I will prove this to be so.

So, is this thread where you are going to discuss Galatians 2:16 to Galatians 5:4? If so, then it's very strange that you are calling this thread Works of the Law~why not the doctrine of the grace of God, which has for its foundation the faith, obedience, and righteousness of Jesus Christ for the FREE justification of sinners?

I'll make a post soon.
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 06:56:35 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #11 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 07:20:14 »
All the talk about "works of the law" and no one has even bothered to define or explain what that phrase even means.  I guarantee that there is no agreement about what that phrase means in what has been posted thus far in this topic.

GB thinks works of the law were the actions of the priests of Israel conducted in accordance with acts of atonement.  RB thinks works of the law are the actions, any and all actions, that man does.  Neither of these are correct and therefore anything said by either GB or RB relative to the topic "works of the law" will necessarily be incorrect as well.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #12 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 08:22:45 »
All the talk about "works of the law" and no one has even bothered to define or explain what that phrase even means.  I guarantee that there is no agreement about what that phrase means in what has been posted thus far in this topic.

GB thinks works of the law were the actions of the priests of Israel conducted in accordance with acts of atonement.  RB thinks works of the law are the actions, any and all actions, that man does.  Neither of these are correct and therefore anything said by either GB or RB relative to the topic "works of the law" will necessarily be incorrect as well.

So, go ahead 4WD and tell us and explain what the phrase "works of the law" means.

Offline GB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #13 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 08:37:42 »
GB, the truth is you are not alone, but everyone who rejects, the doctrine of "unconditional" election of grace (which is precise the definition of election) believes the same gospel you hold to~they may indeed use different words in supporting their gospel, but, when it is all said and done, there are no differences between you and them. By God's help I will prove this to be so.

So, is this thread where you are going to discuss Galatians 2:16 to Galatians 5:4? If so, then it's very strange that you are calling this thread Works of the Law~why not the doctrine of the grace of God, which has for its foundation the faith, obedience, and righteousness of Jesus Christ for the FREE justification of sinners?

I'll make a post soon.

 I posted this thread to discuss a certain scripture, not promote some popular religious franchise.

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #14 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 08:37:54 »
So, go ahead 4WD and tell us and explain what the phrase "works of the law" means.
Maybe latter.  For now, I am not really interested in getting into a discussion of this topic.  I only wanted to point out that the discussion thus far hasn't even come to an agreement or and understanding on the meaning of the phrase.

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #15 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 08:40:22 »
I posted this thread to discuss a certain scripture, not promote some popular religious franchise.
You posted this thread to promote your own [unpopular] religious franchise.

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #16 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 08:43:10 »
RB thinks works of the law are the actions, any and all actions, that man does. 
Paul will tells us:
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 2:16~Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Quote from: Paul
Philippians 3:3-9~"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"
So, 4WD, give your give definition of the works of the law an then I will give mine based on Galatians and Philippians three  and other related scriptures. e.r.m can do the same.
Quote from: Texas Conservative on: Yesterday at 18:48:53
You believe in works based salvation now?  What percentage of salvation do your works earn?  1%. 5%. More?
0%, just as Paul has taught us and the same he had. Paul said that he had NO confidence in the flesh~or, the old man Adam IN US...man in his natural state without the Spirit of God IN HIM. Does not NO mean zero? 
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 10:44:25 by RB »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #17 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 08:57:53 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 08:22:45
So, go ahead 4WD and tell us and explain what the phrase "works of the law" means.
Maybe latter.  For now, I am not really interested in getting into a discussion of this topic.  I only wanted to point out that the discussion thus far hasn't even come to an agreement or and understanding on the meaning of the phrase.

Here's what the phrase "works of the Law" mean to me, per my reading of scriptures.

It refers to all works that must be done by the man which are written in the book of the law. Those are the works of the law referred to by Paul.

I'm interested to know what is your take on the phrase, as well as the others who participate in this thread.
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 09:15:17 by Michael2012 »

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #18 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 09:01:15 »
You believe in works based salvation now?  What percentage of salvation do your works earn?  1%. 5%. More?

Can you expound on what "Works Based Salvation" is in your religion? Then maybe you can explain Paul words here.

Rom. 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

How much of the Righteous Judgment of God is used to render according to Every Man's Deeds? 1%, 5%, More?


This discussion doesn't have to be confrontational. Why don't you open your mind to the actual Scriptures and partake in an honest discussion about the topic of the thread?



Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #19 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 09:03:00 »
Gal. 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This verse is used by many to teach that obedience to God is not a requirement for Salvation. This is one of the foundation blocks of most mainstream religions.

Since I have learned the scriptures outside the influence of modern religions, I see the scriptures differently and would like to have a discussion about this verse. I would like to ask some questions and post some scriptures. I am not trying to promote any religion, rather, to have an honest discussions about what the Bible says.

What is a Jew by nature?

Rom. 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

So a Natural Jew would be someone who had the Oracles (an utterance from God) of God.

So then this would mean these Jews were sinners who had the Old Testament writings and Word's of God while the Gentiles were sinners who didn't.

So in the oracles of God, what was the "LAW" that was followed for atonement of justification of sins?

Lev. 4:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:

3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.

4 And he shall bring the bullock unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD; and shall lay his hand upon the bullock's head, and kill the bullock before the LORD.

5 And the priest that is anointed shall take of the bullock's blood, and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation:

So according to this understanding, the Natural Jews who were sinners, were to take an animal to the priest who would then kill the animal and perform "Work's of the Law" to atone for the Natural Jews sins.

20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it (the sin) shall be forgiven them.

So the Natural Jews, who didn't believe Jesus was the Unblemished Lamb of God, the Prophesied Messiah, were still performing and relying on these "Works of the Law" for justification of sins (Transgressions of God's Law).

But I have heard countless people, who come in Christ's Name, who preach that the "Works of the Law" Paul is speaking to here are not those sacrificial Laws God created for atonement "Till the Seed should come", rather, the 10 Commandments, and other "Oracles" of God.

What were the "sins" of the Gentiles? Were they also called sinners because they transgressed God's Commandments? Weren't the Natural Jews telling the Gentiles that they were required to rely on the "Works of the Law" God created for atonement of sins, instead of telling them the truth Zechariahs and Simeon knew, which was that Jesus was the High Priest who gave His own life for atonement of our sins and these Old Testament sacrifices was a "shadow" of His Coming? 

How is it these "works of the Law" for atonement, went from animal sacrifice to obeying any Commandment of God?

GB, the "works of the Law" refers to all works that must be done by the man which are written in the book of the law, not only those related for the atonement of sin. 

In verse 16, Paul says concerning how a man is justified:

a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ

Do you understand what Paul is saying there, and can you accept what he says there?
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 09:13:32 by Michael2012 »

Offline GB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #20 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 09:10:11 »
All the talk about "works of the law" and no one has even bothered to define or explain what that phrase even means.  I guarantee that there is no agreement about what that phrase means in what has been posted thus far in this topic.

GB thinks works of the law were the actions of the priests of Israel conducted in accordance with acts of atonement.  RB thinks works of the law are the actions, any and all actions, that man does.  Neither of these are correct and therefore anything said by either GB or RB relative to the topic "works of the law" will necessarily be incorrect as well.

I wondered how long it would take for you to throw your mud then run away.

It is precisely because there is no agreement about the phrase that I posted the thread in the first place. It is no surprise you would add your opinion based on your opinion. But I think this is why there is no agreement in the first place.






Offline GB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #21 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 09:19:28 »
You posted this thread to promote your own [unpopular] religious franchise.

Yes, I have learned by your posts that much of God's Actual Word is unpleasant to you.


Maybe you could actually engage in the discussion. If you don't believe Paul was speaking to the Atonement Laws God gave Moses for the justification of sins the Jews were still performing, then what Laws were they relying on to justify their sin?

Offline 4WD

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #22 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 09:50:08 »
I wondered how long it would take for you to throw your mud then run away.

It is precisely because there is no agreement about the phrase that I posted the thread in the first place. It is no surprise you would add your opinion based on your opinion. But I think this is why there is no agreement in the first place.
I haven't thrown any mud, although I admit I have handed back some of the mud that you have plastered the forum with.

And of course, my opinions are my opinions, as are yours.  You pretend to understand scripture, but you stand alone in your opinions; some of the rest of us can at least find considerable support for ours, even if those opinions are diverse.

Offline GB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #23 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 09:52:59 »
GB, the "works of the Law" refers to all works that must be done by the man which are written in the book of the law, not only those related for the atonement of sin. 

In verse 16, Paul says concerning how a man is justified:

a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ

Do you understand what Paul is saying there, and can you accept what he says there?

I understand the popular religious teaching, I acknowledged it in the thread. The whole point of the thread is that what the Bible teaches, and what the religions of the land teaches is not united, at least in my view, and here is why I believe this way.

Paul also says

Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Is Paul contradicting himself?

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Is James and Paul united in their Faith and understanding?

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Is Paul, Peter, James united in their Faith and understanding of God's Word?

Matt. 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (Transgress God's Commandments).

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Is Jesus and Paul and James and Peter united here? Of one mind? Do you understand what all four, including the Lord's Christ, are saying here?

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Is this not the Same Christ who came to earth as a man in the person of Jesus?

So Michael, may I humbly suggest that your teaching;

 "the "works of the Law" refers to all works that must be done by the man which are written in the book of the law, not only those related for the atonement of sin."

Is clearly not the teaching of Jesus, both before and after He came to earth as a man, nor does it agree with Paul, or James or Peter.

So how can you reconcile your religious statement in the face of such evidence against it. Not from some "Great Theologian" or some preacher of a religious franchise, but from the Word's of the Holy Bible?

I too, was once convinced as you are. And had no small struggle to unite what God's Word said, with what the religions of the land say.

But if I understand that the Jews were still performing the "works of the Law" that God gave to Moses for the specific purpose of justifying sin, and that Paul was speaking Specifically about them "15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,".

Then the entire Bible unites with the Christ, Paul, Peter, James, in fact "Every Word of God".

There is no contradiction in the Bible, only in the religious traditions of man.

Please don't just blow this off, show me where, in God's Word, that this understanding I have is not aligned with Him and His Word.


Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #24 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 09:54:44 »
If you don't believe Paul was speaking to the Atonement Laws God gave Moses for the justification of sins the Jews were still performing, then what Laws were they relying on to justify their sin?

One's logic/reasoning, exhibited in such questions, is not how one arrives to the truth. If we like to get to the truth, we search in scriptures for it.

For one, what laws the Jews have is for the atonement for their sin, not justification for their sin. The two are different. So, one must be careful not to confuse the two.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #25 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 09:59:09 »
Yes, I have learned by your posts that much of God's Actual Word is unpleasant to you.
It is not God's Actual Word that is unpleasant to me; but your obtuse and imbecilic interpretation of God's Actual Word is extremely unpleasant to me and I think to a lot of others here.

Offline GB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #26 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 10:18:36 »
I haven't thrown any mud, although I admit I have handed back some of the mud that you have plastered the forum with.

And of course, my opinions are my opinions, as are yours.  You pretend to understand scripture, but you stand alone in your opinions; some of the rest of us can at least find considerable support for ours, even if those opinions are diverse.

Yes, you have me there. There are "many" who follow your opinion of the scriptures.







Offline 4WD

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #27 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 10:31:23 »
Yes, you have me there. There are "many" who follow your opinion of the scriptures.
And none who follow yours.

Offline GB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #28 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 10:33:35 »
One's logic/reasoning, exhibited in such questions, is not how one arrives to the truth. If we like to get to the truth, we search in scriptures for it.

For one, what laws the Jews have is for the atonement for their sin, not justification for their sin. The two are different. So, one must be careful not to confuse the two.

I posted scriptures Michael, and you ignored every single one of them. And are you are now deflecting by trying to confuse what the meaning of "alone" is. (Sarc) An old tactic, doesn't really work any more.

Thank you for your opinion Michael.




Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #29 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 10:37:12 »
Yes, you have me there. There are "many" who follow your opinion of the scriptures.

I don't think anyone would accuse me of following 4wd's opinions.  However, I am in agreement that you are full of it.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #30 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 10:43:43 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 09:03:00
GB, the "works of the Law" refers to all works that must be done by the man which are written in the book of the law, not only those related for the atonement of sin.

In verse 16, Paul says concerning how a man is justified:

a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ

Do you understand what Paul is saying there, and can you accept what he says there?
I understand the popular religious teaching, I acknowledged it in the thread. The whole point of the thread is that what the Bible teaches, and what the religions of the land teaches is not united, at least in my view, and here is why I believe this way.

Paul also says

Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Is Paul contradicting himself?

Why do you even ask that? Are you saying that your reading of Galatians 2:16 contradicts Romans 2:13? Or are you saying that you don't believe what Gal. 2:13 plainly and clearly is saying?

Paul is not contradicting himself GB. What he is saying there is true. You have to understand what Paul is saying in its proper context. In this part of Romans 2, he is talking about the fact that man is guilty of sin, the Jew as well as the Gentile. What he says there in verse 13 is not related to what he said in Gal. 2:16. Instead, what he said there in verse 13, we find a relation in what he said in Romans 10:5, as follows:

For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 


Quote
Quote: GB
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Is James and Paul united in their Faith and understanding?

Of course they are. Do you think they aren't?

James 1:22 is an exhortation to the Christian, admonishing them to not only be hearers, but doers of the word. James was not saying that we must be doers of the word to be justified, which you seem to imply by quoting it here.

Quote
Quote: GB
Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Is Paul, Peter, James united in their Faith and understanding of God's Word?

Matt. 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (Transgress God's Commandments).

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Is Jesus and Paul and James and Peter united here? Of one mind? Do you understand what all four, including the Lord's Christ, are saying here?

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Is this not the Same Christ who came to earth as a man in the person of Jesus?

The apostles are of course united in the truth GB. No question about that.

Acts 5:32, Matt. 7:23-24, Ex. 20:6 does not at all say anything to the effect that man is justified by his work or by being doers of the law nor of the word.

Quote
Quote: GB
So Michael, may I humbly suggest that your teaching;

 "the "works of the Law" refers to all works that must be done by the man which are written in the book of the law, not only those related for the atonement of sin."

Is clearly not the teaching of Jesus, both before and after He came to earth as a man, nor does it agree with Paul, or James or Peter.

I have shown above how you are mistaken GB. How can you not understand the simple teaching of Paul, who was taught by Jesus no less, in Gal.2:16, that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ? If you don't believe what Paul says there, then what does Gal. 2:16 means to you?

Quote
Quote: GB
So how can you reconcile your religious statement in the face of such evidence against it. Not from some "Great Theologian" or some preacher of a religious franchise, but from the Word's of the Holy Bible?

I too, was once convinced as you are. And had no small struggle to unite what God's Word said, with what the religions of the land say.

But if I understand that the Jews were still performing the "works of the Law" that God gave to Moses for the specific purpose of justifying sin, and that Paul was speaking Specifically about them "15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,".

Then the entire Bible unites with the Christ, Paul, Peter, James, in fact "Every Word of God".

There is no contradiction in the Bible, only in the religious traditions of man.

Please don't just blow this off, show me where, in God's Word, that this understanding I have is not aligned with Him and His Word.

As I said, do not mistake justification from atonement GB. There is no works for justification of one's sin in the Law of Moses. What is there is works for the atonement of one's sins.

I will cite one verse, coming from Paul, to show you why "works of the Law" refers to all works that must be done by the man which are written in the book of the law, not only those related for the atonement of sin." By this, your understanding of it will be shown to be incorrect and not aligned with God's Word.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 11:29:47 by Michael2012 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #31 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 10:50:27 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 09:54:44
One's logic/reasoning, exhibited in such questions, is not how one arrives to the truth. If we like to get to the truth, we search in scriptures for it.

For one, what laws the Jews have is for the atonement for their sin, not justification for their sin. The two are different. So, one must be careful not to confuse the two.
I posted scriptures Michael, and you ignored every single one of them. And are you are now deflecting by trying to confuse what the meaning of "alone" is. (Sarc) An old tactic, doesn't really work any more.

Thank you for your opinion Michael.

No GB. I haven't ignored any. See Reply #30. No deflection. No confusing. No tactics.

Just to make sure this will sink in to you, so I repeat:

If we like to get to the truth, we search in scriptures for it.

What laws the Jews have is for the atonement for their sin, not justification for their sin. The two are different. So, one must be careful not to confuse the two, which you seem to be confusing here.

Offline GB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #32 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 10:54:19 »
I don't think anyone would accuse me of following 4wd's opinions.  However, I am in agreement that you are full of it.

Thank you for another heart felt, scripture filled, edifying addition to the thread TC. You and 4WD are truly brothers united.


Offline GB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #33 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 12:37:21 »
Quote
author=Michael2012 link=topic=104892.msg1055150488#msg1055150488 date=1572104623]

As I said, do not mistake justification from atonement GB. There is no works for justification of one's sin in the Law of Moses. What is there is works for the atonement of one's sins.

I will cite one verse, coming from Paul, to show you why "works of the Law" refers to all works that must be done by the man which are written in the book of the law, not only those related for the atonement of sin." By this, your understanding of it will be shown to be incorrect and not aligned with God's Word.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

Trying to discuss scriptures with you is a challenge. I will try once again.

In closing I would remind you that the blood of bulls and goats did not remove sins.

What are sins? Transgression of God's Laws! At least according to Him. So when a man transgressed one of God's Commandments, like refusing to "Love God and Love your Neighbor and all that pertains to these two (stealing, creating images, lying, adultery, breaking His Sabbath, etc) they were told by Moses to go to the Levite Priest with the best of their flock or purchase an animal, and offer it to the Levite Priest who would perform "works of the Law" of Atonement He created as a shadow of the Christ's Sacrifice for us.

This "Law" was "ADDED till the Seed should come", which means "till the Christ, the Lamb of God shall come.

But it was never the "works" that atoned for their sins, it was always the Blood of the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world.

Zechariahs and Simeon knew this truth, because they obeyed God. The Pharisees were blinded to this truth because they disobeyed God.

Heb. 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

The Jews Paul was addressing were still performing Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for the atonement of sins, believing they would be justified by these "works of the Law". Without Atonement, there is no Justification.

Paul is trying to explain to the Jews, not the sinners of the Gentiles, but the Jews who were still relying on the "Works of the Law" of atonement given by God to Moses, That these Works never Justified anyone. It was always the Blood of the Lamb of God.

 And if they relied on these Works for atonement, then they had better not ever transgress even one of God's Commandments, because these "works of the Law" would not take away their sin. But in reality, it is already too late for them, because they have already sinned. So cursed are those who rely on the "works of the Law" because given these "works" will not remove your sins, you will die in them with no atonement.

Gal. 10:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

It is and has always been the Blood of the Christ that atoned for sins.

The context of the "works of the Law" when Paul teaches it, is not God's Ten Commandments we broke when we were "children of disobedience", as you preach. He was not accusing the Jews of following God's Laws in order to be justified, as they were clearly not following God's Laws as Jesus points out over and over.

 He was speaking to the Jews who were relying on the Priesthood "Works of the Law" for atonement instead of trusting the Word of God regarding the Prophesied Messiah and the sacrifice he would make.

If they had obeyed God as did Zechariahs and Simeon and others, they would have known Jesus when He came to them.

Why? Because God "Who will render to every man according to his deeds:" Showed them. "For there is no respect of persons with God."

 "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified".

On this the entire Bible agrees.








 





Offline GB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #34 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 12:39:34 »
I posted scriptures Michael, and you ignored every single one of them. And are you are now deflecting by trying to confuse what the meaning of "alone" is. (Sarc) An old tactic, doesn't really work any more.

Thank you for your opinion Michael.


No GB. I haven't ignored any. See Reply #30. No deflection. No confusing. No tactics.

Just to make sure this will sink in to you, so I repeat:

If we like to get to the truth, we search in scriptures for it.

What laws the Jews have is for the atonement for their sin, not justification for their sin. The two are different. So, one must be careful not to confuse the two, which you seem to be confusing here.

Without atonement, there is no justification. I am not confused.