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Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #35 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 13:41:44 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 10:50:27
I posted scriptures Michael, and you ignored every single one of them. And are you are now deflecting by trying to confuse what the meaning of "alone" is. (Sarc) An old tactic, doesn't really work any more.

Thank you for your opinion Michael.


No GB. I haven't ignored any. See Reply #30. No deflection. No confusing. No tactics.

Just to make sure this will sink in to you, so I repeat:

If we like to get to the truth, we search in scriptures for it.

What laws the Jews have is for the atonement for their sin, not justification for their sin. The two are different. So, one must be careful not to confuse the two, which you seem to be confusing here.
Without atonement, there is no justification. I am not confused.

Not necessarily true GB. Why don't you do yourself a favor and get your dictionary and look up the terms, so you'll be aware of their difference. There is a big difference, you'll see. And then you'll come to realize that your statement "Without atonement, there is no justification" is not necessarily true.

You still maintain of not confusing atonement with justification. But I'm sure you can't show me in the OT scriptures or the Law and the prophets, that there is a law on the justification of sin. As I pointed out, what is there in the Law is the law on the atonement of sin.

Your use of atonement and justification in your statements proves that you are confused and are confusing atonement and justification.

1. So in the oracles of God, what was the "LAW" that was followed for atonement of justification of sins?

2. So the Natural Jews, who didn't believe Jesus was the Unblemished Lamb of God, the Prophesied Messiah, were still performing and relying on these "Works of the Law" for justification of sins (Transgressions of God's Law).

3. How is it these "works of the Law" for atonement, went from animal sacrifice to obeying any Commandment of God?

4. And to the point of this thread, not the "doers" of the Laws of Atonement God Added to His Commandments "Till the Seed should come".

5. If you don't believe Paul was speaking to the Atonement Laws God gave Moses for the justification of sins the Jews were still performing, then what Laws were they relying on to justify their sin?

6. But if I understand that the Jews were still performing the "works of the Law" that God gave to Moses for the specific purpose of justifying sin, and that Paul was speaking Specifically about them "15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,".

7. The Jews Paul was addressing were still performing Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for the atonement of sins, believing they would be justified by these "works of the Law".

8. Without Atonement, there is no Justification.

Also, do you not notice in the list, you seem to be saying that the laws of atonement for sin in the Mosaic Law had the purpose of justifying sin. Do you even realize what "justifying sin" means? I don't think you do.

Nowhere can you find scriptures that speaks of such a thing as justification of sin or being justified of sin. 

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #35 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 13:41:44 »

Online GB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #36 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 15:16:02 »
Without atonement, there is no justification. I am not confused.


Not necessarily true GB. Why don't you do yourself a favor and get your dictionary and look up the terms, so you'll be aware of their difference. There is a big difference, you'll see. And then you'll come to realize that your statement "Without atonement, there is no justification" is not necessarily true.

You still maintain of not confusing atonement with justification. But I'm sure you can't show me in the OT scriptures or the Law and the prophets, that there is a law on the justification of sin. As I pointed out, what is there in the Law is the law on the atonement of sin.

Your use of atonement and justification in your statements proves that you are confused and are confusing atonement and justification.

1. So in the oracles of God, what was the "LAW" that was followed for atonement of justification of sins?

2. So the Natural Jews, who didn't believe Jesus was the Unblemished Lamb of God, the Prophesied Messiah, were still performing and relying on these "Works of the Law" for justification of sins (Transgressions of God's Law).

3. How is it these "works of the Law" for atonement, went from animal sacrifice to obeying any Commandment of God?

4. And to the point of this thread, not the "doers" of the Laws of Atonement God Added to His Commandments "Till the Seed should come".

5. If you don't believe Paul was speaking to the Atonement Laws God gave Moses for the justification of sins the Jews were still performing, then what Laws were they relying on to justify their sin?

6. But if I understand that the Jews were still performing the "works of the Law" that God gave to Moses for the specific purpose of justifying sin, and that Paul was speaking Specifically about them "15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,".

7. The Jews Paul was addressing were still performing Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for the atonement of sins, believing they would be justified by these "works of the Law".

8. Without Atonement, there is no Justification.

Also, do you not notice in the list, you seem to be saying that the laws of atonement for sin in the Mosaic Law had the purpose of justifying sin. Do you even realize what "justifying sin" means? I don't think you do.

Nowhere can you find scriptures that speaks of such a thing as justification of sin or being justified of sin.

The purpose of this thread is to identify the context Paul used when referencing the "works of the Law" the Jews were "Doing", to be Justified by. I can not let you move the bar again, or change the subject.

The Jews Paul was speaking of, were trying to be "Justified" by following "Works of the Law".


Justified = Greek "dikaioo" "To render just or innocent".

You preach they were trying to be "Justified" by obeying all of God's Commandments like Zechariahs, Abraham, Noah, Simeon and others who knew the Christ.

I don't believe the Scriptures bear this out and have presented scriptures to make that case. Again, were there "work's of the Law" Added to God's Commandments for the Atonement or forgiveness of sins? According to His Word there was.

Lev. 4:14 When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin, and bring him before the tabernacle of the congregation.

20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

You have provided no evidence that the Jews in question were following God's Commandments or teaching others to obey God's Commandments. That is because the evidence doesn't exist, only in your mind. The evidence points out that the Jews in question didn't know Jesus, much less believe in Him. This is why they were still relying on "works of the Law" to be rendered innocent.

There is evidence, however, that some Jews were obeying God.

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

This man, along with several others, did obey God's Laws, and were "rendered innocent" (Blameless)

Notice that they all knew the Lord's Christ when He came to them.

But of the Jews who were still relying on the Priesthood "works of the Law" to render them innocent or righteous;

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Not God's Laws as you preach)

You preach "Nowhere can you find scriptures that speaks of such a thing as justification (Rendered innocent) of sin or being justified (Rendered innocent) of sin."

It's very telling that you would make such a statement, but it doesn't surprise me.

Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (Shall be rendered innocent)

1 Cor. 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified (Rendered innocent) in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (Not sacrificial "works of the Law")

1 Cor. 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: (Rendered innocent) but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

Rom. 2:6 “Who will render to every man according to his deeds:”

Render what???? Innocence or guilt!!!!!!

We are at an impasse, thanks for your replies but they just don't add up, in my view, according to Every Word of God.








Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #37 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 15:18:44 »
In closing I would remind you that the blood of bulls and goats did not remove sins.

What are sins? Transgression of God's Laws! At least according to Him. So when a man transgressed one of God's Commandments, like refusing to "Love God and Love your Neighbor and all that pertains to these two (stealing, creating images, lying, adultery, breaking His Sabbath, etc) they were told by Moses to go to the Levite Priest with the best of their flock or purchase an animal, and offer it to the Levite Priest who would perform "works of the Law" of Atonement He created as a shadow of the Christ's Sacrifice for us.

Yes, Hebrews 10:4 says "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins." No issue on that.

Yes, sins are transgression of God's laws and commandments. But in case you don't know it yet, let me write down here some things regarding sin:

1. Whatever is not from faith is sin
2. To him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.
3. Sin is lawlessness.

Quote
Quote:GB
This "Law" was "ADDED till the Seed should come", which means "till the Christ, the Lamb of God shall come.

Gal. 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

And look what else Paul says concerning the Law, and what else it is for.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 4:15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

Romans 7:13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

Galatians 3:12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith

1 Timothy 1:9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Quote
Quote:GB
But it was never the "works" that atoned for their sins, it was always the Blood of the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world.

Zechariahs and Simeon knew this truth, because they obeyed God. The Pharisees were blinded to this truth because they disobeyed God.

Heb. 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

The Jews Paul was addressing were still performing Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for the atonement of sins, believing they would be justified by these "works of the Law". Without Atonement, there is no Justification.

Paul is trying to explain to the Jews, not the sinners of the Gentiles, but the Jews who were still relying on the "Works of the Law" of atonement given by God to Moses, That these Works never Justified anyone. It was always the Blood of the Lamb of God.

 And if they relied on these Works for atonement, then they had better not ever transgress even one of God's Commandments, because these "works of the Law" would not take away their sin. But in reality, it is already too late for them, because they have already sinned. So cursed are those who rely on the "works of the Law" because given these "works" will not remove your sins, you will die in them with no atonement.

Gal. 10:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

It is and has always been the Blood of the Christ that atoned for sins.

Consider some scriptures:

Leviticus 4:20 And he shall do with the bull as he did with the bull as a sin offering; thus he shall do with it. So the priest shall make atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

Leviticus 4:35 He shall remove all its fat, as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offering. Then the priest shall burn it on the altar, according to the offerings made by fire to the Lord. So the priest shall make atonement for his sin that he has committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

There are more of this which says "the priest shall make atonement for his sin that he has committed, and it shall be forgiven him".

Now, my question to you, in all of those scriptures, when the priest make atonement for his sin, was he forgiven or not?

Another question for you is, is there any scriptures that speaks of the Jews as doing the laws of atonement believing they would be justified by it? Or any scriptures that says that the laws of atonement were for the purpose of the justification of sin (if there is any such thing)?

Quote
Quote: GB
The context of the "works of the Law" when Paul teaches it, is not God's Ten Commandments we broke when we were "children of disobedience", as you preach. He was not accusing the Jews of following God's Laws in order to be justified, as they were clearly not following God's Laws as Jesus points out over and over.

 He was speaking to the Jews who were relying on the Priesthood "Works of the Law" for atonement instead of trusting the Word of God regarding the Prophesied Messiah and the sacrifice he would make.

If they had obeyed God as did Zechariahs and Simeon and others, they would have known Jesus when He came to them.

Why? Because God "Who will render to every man according to his deeds:" Showed them. "For there is no respect of persons with God."

 "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified".

On this the entire Bible agrees.

That is your opinion. And it is not in tune with scriptures.

Let's see if in Galatians 2:16, Paul was referring to the laws of atonement when he said "works of the Law".

Gal. 2:16 knowing that a man is not [a]justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

footnote: [a] declared righteous

First off, as I pointed out, the laws of atonement for sin are not about justification of the sinner.

Second, the context will give us a hint as to what Paul, by "works of the Law" is referring to.

11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, [g]why do you compel Gentiles to live as [h]Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Clearly, Paul is not referring to the laws of atonement for sin, but the whole Law wherein is embodied how the Jew should live their lives. Here, what Paul rebuked of Peter in verse 14, is not about the laws of atonement for sin, but the eating with Gentiles.

So GB, what you claim, that is, what you teach there you say the entire Bible agrees, is just what you claim. I'm sorry, but it is not as you claim.

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #37 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 15:18:44 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #38 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 16:36:32 »
Quote
Not necessarily true GB. Why don't you do yourself a favor and get your dictionary and look up the terms, so you'll be aware of their difference. There is a big difference, you'll see. And then you'll come to realize that your statement "Without atonement, there is no justification" is not necessarily true.

You still maintain of not confusing atonement with justification. But I'm sure you can't show me in the OT scriptures or the Law and the prophets, that there is a law on the justification of sin. As I pointed out, what is there in the Law is the law on the atonement of sin.

Your use of atonement and justification in your statements proves that you are confused and are confusing atonement and justification.

1. So in the oracles of God, what was the "LAW" that was followed for atonement of justification of sins?

2. So the Natural Jews, who didn't believe Jesus was the Unblemished Lamb of God, the Prophesied Messiah, were still performing and relying on these "Works of the Law" for justification of sins (Transgressions of God's Law).

3. How is it these "works of the Law" for atonement, went from animal sacrifice to obeying any Commandment of God?

4. And to the point of this thread, not the "doers" of the Laws of Atonement God Added to His Commandments "Till the Seed should come".

5. If you don't believe Paul was speaking to the Atonement Laws God gave Moses for the justification of sins the Jews were still performing, then what Laws were they relying on to justify their sin?

6. But if I understand that the Jews were still performing the "works of the Law" that God gave to Moses for the specific purpose of justifying sin, and that Paul was speaking Specifically about them "15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,".

7. The Jews Paul was addressing were still performing Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for the atonement of sins, believing they would be justified by these "works of the Law".

8. Without Atonement, there is no Justification.

Also, do you not notice in the list, you seem to be saying that the laws of atonement for sin in the Mosaic Law had the purpose of justifying sin. Do you even realize what "justifying sin" means? I don't think you do.

Nowhere can you find scriptures that speaks of such a thing as justification of sin or being justified of sin.
The purpose of this thread is to identify the context Paul used when referencing the "works of the Law" the Jews were "Doing", to be Justified by. I can not let you move the bar again, or change the subject.

See my reply #37. I made mention of the context there, if that's the purpose of this thread.

And I am not at all changing the subject GB. I am exactly responding to your post and addressing what you've written there.

Quote
Quote: GB
The Jews Paul was speaking of, were trying to be "Justified" by following "Works of the Law".


Justified = Greek "dikaioo" "To render just or innocent".

It's good you post what "Justified" means. How about "atoned"?
 
Quote
Quote: GB
You preach they were trying to be "Justified" by obeying all of God's Commandments like Zechariahs, Abraham, Noah, Simeon and others who knew the Christ.

You still could not accept that "works of the law" does not refer to the laws of atonement for sin, but to all the works embodied in the Law. How do you explain the following passages, if what you say is correct?

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

Galatians 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Romans 2:15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)

Romans 9:32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

Galatians 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Quote
Quote: GB
I don't believe the Scriptures bear this out and have presented scriptures to make that case. Again, were there "work's of the Law" Added to God's Commandments for the Atonement or forgiveness of sins? According to His Word there was.

Lev. 4:14 When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin, and bring him before the tabernacle of the congregation.

20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

You have provided no evidence that the Jews in question were following God's Commandments or teaching others to obey God's Commandments. That is because the evidence doesn't exist, only in your mind. The evidence points out that the Jews in question didn't know Jesus, much less believe in Him. This is why they were still relying on "works of the Law" to be rendered innocent.

There is actually no need for the evidence you are asking for you to be convinced. For it is a given that all that is written in the Law, the Jews are to follow and keep all to be right with God. Nevertheless, let quote the following scriptures:

Romans 10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.”

Acts 15:3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren. 4 And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them. 5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

You see, even some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed, still hold the belief that circumcision is necessary, and to keep the law of Moses. To which the apostles and the elders said they have commanded no such thing.

You said "they were still relying on "works of the Law" to be rendered innocent." As I pointed out, and which you don't seem to refute, that the law for atonement for sin is not for the purpose of justifying sin, but for atoning for sin. So, what you say there, by itself is erroneous and by itself exposes its error. To be rendered innocent means to be declared not guilty of sin, which is not what atonement for sin is for. As I said atonement is very much different from justification. Why can you not understand that, or why can you not accept that if ever you understand it?

Quote
Quote:GB
The evidence points out that the Jews in question didn't know Jesus, much less believe in Him. This is why they were still relying on "works of the Law" to be rendered innocent.

The "Jews in question", you say. You seem to not know who the Jews in question are in the passage. They are no other but the "we" in the passage GB.

Gal. 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

The "We" refers to no other but Paul, to Peter and the Jewish Christians with them, to whom Paul was saying what he says in verses 14-16. And of course, in general, that will go to refer all Jewish Christians.

Quote
Quote: GB
There is evidence, however, that some Jews were obeying God.

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

This man, along with several others, did obey God's Laws, and were "rendered innocent" (Blameless)

Notice that they all knew the Lord's Christ when He came to them.

But of the Jews who were still relying on the Priesthood "works of the Law" to render them innocent or righteous;

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Not God's Laws as you preach)

You preach "Nowhere can you find scriptures that speaks of such a thing as justification (Rendered innocent) of sin or being justified (Rendered innocent) of sin."

It's very telling that you would make such a statement, but it doesn't surprise me.

Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (Shall be rendered innocent)

1 Cor. 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified (Rendered innocent) in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (Not sacrificial "works of the Law")

1 Cor. 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: (Rendered innocent) but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

Rom. 2:6 “Who will render to every man according to his deeds:”

Render what???? Innocence or guilt!!!!!!

We are at an impasse, thanks for your replies but they just don't add up, in my view, according to Every Word of God.

Yes I said "Nowhere can you find scriptures that speaks of such a thing as justification of sin or being justified of sin."

You cited Rom. 2:13, 1 Cor. 6:10-11, 1 Cor. 4:2-4, Rom. 2:6, and not one of those speaks of justification of sin or being justified of sin. No matter how hard you try to twist them and let them speak of justification of sin or being justified of sin, you simply just can't.

Regarding Romans 2:6, you asked "Render what???? Innocence or guilt!!!!!!"

Neither GB. Judgment is what will be rendered. The verses that follows tells of this.

« Last Edit: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 23:37:36 by Michael2012 »

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #38 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 16:36:32 »
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Offline soterion

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #39 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 17:08:51 »
Galatians 2:16.
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

4WD is right that we ought to define "works of the Law" in this context, if we are going to discuss the verse.

It seems obvious to me that we should start at the purpose, or occasion, of the letter. Galatians was written to try to undo/prevent the ill influences of the Judaizers on the Galatian Christians. Paul had led them to justification in Christ, but the Judaizers were going behind him and demanding that these gentiles have to also hold to the law of Moses for justification before God.

In this letter, works of the Law is set against faith in Christ. There is no middle ground with Paul on this. In this letter, a person is either seeking justification through lawkeeping apart from faith in Christ, or a person is seeking justification through faith in Christ alone.

Going by how the term "Law" is being used in the letter, and specifically how circumcision is mentioned as having no avail toward justification, I have to say that "works of the Law" is referring to the law of Moses...any and all of it.

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #39 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 17:08:51 »



Offline Jaime

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #40 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 18:00:34 »
Yes, the law here refers to the Mosaic law, if context means ANYTHING, and of course it does especially in this passage.

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #40 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 18:00:34 »

Online GB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #41 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 18:22:51 »
Galatians 2:16.
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

4WD is right that we ought to define "works of the Law" in this context, if we are going to discuss the verse.

It seems obvious to me that we should start at the purpose, or occasion, of the letter. Galatians was written to try to undo/prevent the ill influences of the Judaizers on the Galatian Christians. Paul had led them to justification in Christ, but the Judaizers were going behind him and demanding that these gentiles have to also hold to the law of Moses for justification before God.

In this letter, works of the Law is set against faith in Christ. There is no middle ground with Paul on this. In this letter, a person is either seeking justification through lawkeeping apart from faith in Christ, or a person is seeking justification through faith in Christ alone.

Going by how the term "Law" is being used in the letter, and specifically how circumcision is mentioned as having no avail toward justification, I have to say that "works of the Law" is referring to the law of Moses...any and all of it.

Yes, that is the prevailing religious belief, and mine years ago. But it doesn't align with the rest of the scriptures or even Paul's own words. That is why I brought it to this thread.

For the popular teaching on this chapter to be true, that would mean that the Jews by Nature (Not by the Spirit)

(Rom. 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.)

Were being obedient to God's Commandments, and were trying to get the Galatians to obey God as well. Teaching them to Love God, and Love their Neighbor as themselves, and not to hate their brother in their hearts, and so on, all "referring to the law of Moses...any and all of it" as you preach here.

But even though this is the mainstream belief, I can find no Biblical evidence to support it.

I do believe we should define the term "works of the Law" in this context and I believe I have. I have found absolutely zero evidence that the Jew by nature, or Pharisees, were teaching people to follow the Commandments of God.

 They said they were, but Jesus exposed them over and over and over as liars. To keep this post short I won't post all the Word's of the Lord's Christ which define in great detail, the religion of the "Jews by Nature".

 If you can provide any evidence from the Bible that the Jews were trying to get the Gentiles to obey God, and that Paul was trying to convince the Gentiles to reject God's Word, please bring it forth Soterion.

You said "It seems obvious to me that we should start at the purpose, or occasion, of the letter. Galatians was written to try to undo/prevent the ill influences of the Judaizers on the Galatian Christians.

I think this statement hinges on what your definition of "Judaizers" is. If you believe this "ILL Influence" was the "Commandments and Traditions of man" that Jesus said they were peddling as doctrine, then I think you are spot on.

 But if you define "Judaizers" as preaching the "ILL Influence" of the Commandments of God that Zechariahs and Abraham obeyed, then the Bible pretty much teaches against you.

I think the reference of circumcision here is similar to being baptized into the Jews religion which Jesus, Paul, the Prophets of Old, the entire Bible says rejected God's Words and created their own religion.

But if you have Biblical proof that these Jews were following and teaching the Commandments of God, please, by all means, bring it forward.

Zechariahs was a faithful Jew, as was Simeon. I think it is very significant that these men knew the Christ when He came, but the "Jews by Nature" that Paul is addressing, did not.

It is a fascinating study, with deep implications if the Bible is right, and the religious tradition popular in the land is wrong.

Thank you for the thoughtful reply.







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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #42 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 21:07:45 »
Obviously the Pharisees et al had bastardized the Law. The Judaizers wanted to require that new Christian converts obey the Law of Moses as they “understood” it as a pre-requisite to becoming a Christian as Soterion indicated. Works of the Law was circumcision etc of the Law of Moses as understood erroneously by some of the Jewish Christians. It was NOT just any muscular involvement, as some here insist, or confessing Jesus is Lord would not qualify because of the engagement of muscles of the mouth.
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 21:22:34 by Jaime »

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #43 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 22:35:43 »
Obviously the Pharisees et al had bastardized the Law. The Judaizers wanted to require that new Christian converts obey the Law of Moses as they “understood” it as a pre-requisite to becoming a Christian as Soterion indicated. Works of the Law was circumcision etc of the Law of Moses as understood erroneously by some of the Jewish Christians. It was NOT just any muscular involvement, as some here insist, or confessing Jesus is Lord would not qualify because of the engagement of muscles of the mouth.

Pharisees could have not added any laws and still would have been looked down upon by God with disgust.

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #43 on: Sat Oct 26, 2019 - 22:35:43 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #44 on: Sun Oct 27, 2019 - 00:13:10 »
I can see that what "works of the law" refers to is now on the clear, in as much as it has been shown in this thread, and that without any further evidence to show otherwise.

That is, it refers to all the works that must be done by the man which are written in the book of the law, all that is embodied in the Law of Moses.

I think we now can move on to discuss the more important truth that is found in Gal. 2:16.

This all important truth, as per my reading of the passage and scriptures, is:

1. That no man is justified, or that no man is declared righteous, by the works of the Law.
2. That justification is by the faith of Jesus Christ.

In other words, justification of man is a matter of faith, not a matter of works. And justification of man is because of Jesus Christ, not because of the man.

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #45 on: Sun Oct 27, 2019 - 05:46:40 »
4WD is right that we ought to define "works of the Law" in this context, if we are going to discuss the verse.
True, yet 4WD has not as of yet (I'm trying to get caught up if he has then I apologize) given his understanding of the works of the law.
Quote from: soterion Reply #39 on: Yesterday at 17:08:51
Paul had led them to justification in Christ,
This statement is of itself very misleading, and is what I would expect from men who think that both the preacher and the sinner has an "active part" (works of the law) in the sinner's legal justification which is just what Paul is refuting in his epistle to those at Galatia who had been bewitched by men who do not understand the law, the gospel and the word of God concerning the grace of God. 

Sinners are born again by the Spirit of God ALONE through grace without works secured by Jesus Christ's faith/obedience who alone fulfilled the law of God perfectly as the surety of God's elect~and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS is imputeth by God to the elect's account by the sovereign will of God WITHOUT WORKS ON their part~those who enjoy these spiritual blessing are careful to maintain good works in their life as they live by every word of God by the FAITH OF Jesus Christ, that was the ONLY grounds of them being quickened to life and created after the very image of the Son of God.  We will add~THROUGH that new man, they have the power to follow God commandments and delight in doing so!
Quote from: Paul's gospel
Galatians 2:20,21~"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."
We sing the song:

"Were you there when they crucified my Lord"


1. Were you there when they crucified my Lord?
Were you there when they crucified my Lord?
Oh! Sometimes it causes me to tremble, tremble, tremble.
Were you there when they crucified my Lord?

2. Were you there when they nailed him to the tree?
Were you there when they nailed him to the tree?
Oh! Sometimes it causes me to tremble, tremble, tremble.
Were you there when they nailed him to the tree?

3. Were you there when they pierced him in the side?
Were you there when they pierced him in the side?
Oh! Sometimes it causes me to tremble, tremble, tremble.
Were you there when they pierced him in the side?

4. Were you there when the sun refused to shine?
Were you there when the sun refused to shine?
Oh! Sometimes it causes me to tremble, tremble, tremble.
Were you there when the sun refused to shine?

5. Were you there when they laid him in the tomb?
Were you there when they laid him in the tomb?
Oh! Sometimes it causes me to tremble, tremble, tremble.
Were you there when they laid him in the tomb?

6. Were you there when he rose up from the dead?
Were you there when he rose up from the dead?
6. Sometimes I feel like shouting 'Glory, glory, glory!'
Were you there when he rose up from the dead?

The answer to that song is Yes, I was there as a member of his holy body!  Jesus Christ did NOT live as a private person but as the representative of HIS PEOPLE before the law of God.

If I could change any words to that song, I would change these words: "Oh! Sometimes it causes me to tremble, tremble, tremble." To it ALWAYS causes me to REJOICE, REJOICE, REJOICE! I was indeed crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Without Christ securing all the spiritual benefits for me (mainly faith) I would have never had come to faith in him on my own strength, for every sinner is WITHOUT SPIRITUAL strength, per Romans 5! 

I need to get caught up on all the posts before I start posting very much.
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 27, 2019 - 06:02:57 by RB »

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #46 on: Sun Oct 27, 2019 - 09:02:00 »
Obviously the Pharisees et al had bastardized the Law. The Judaizers wanted to require that new Christian converts obey the Law of Moses as they “understood” it as a pre-requisite to becoming a Christian as Soterion indicated. Works of the Law was circumcision etc of the Law of Moses as understood erroneously by some of the Jewish Christians. It was NOT just any muscular involvement, as some here insist, or confessing Jesus is Lord would not qualify because of the engagement of muscles of the mouth.

I agree.

Just because a person "Says" they are Abraham's Children, or even believes they are Abraham's Children, doesn't make them Abraham's Children. It takes more than lip service to qualify as a Child of Abraham, as the Christ Jesus explains.

John 8:33 They (Jews by Nature) answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. (Who Paul teaches is the father of all true believers)

What were the works of Abraham? Did he transgress the Commandments of God by his own ancient religious tradition? Did He promote Commandments of Men? Or did he follow God's instructions like Zechariahs and Simeon. Why there are men who claim to be God's Children who will not answer these questions is fascinating to me.

I like your comment "require that new Christian converts obey the Law of Moses as they “understood” it as a pre-requisite to becoming a Christian"

That is the goal of Every Religion is it not? To convert members to "their religion" as "They" understand it.

Didn't Jesus do the same thing? Didn't He Require obedience to the Law of Moses, "AS He understood it" as a pre-requisite to becoming a Christian?

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Is there any other way to "Come to Jesus according to Him?

And didn't Paul preach to everyone the exact same thing.

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they (ALL) should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. (As a pre-requisite to becoming a Christian)

What I think you and Soterion are forgetting, is the truth that the Christ already discerned the Pharisees religion. Both as the Word of God, and as the man Jesus. He Already pointed out that they were not serving God at all, but serving satan. That they were not following or even promoting God's Word, rather, they taught for doctrines the Commandment of Men. They Transgressed God's Commandments by their Religious Traditions. That they did part of the Priesthood taking of the tithes and sacrificial "laws", but  "omitted" the weightier matters of the law of Moses from their religion. That Moses gave them the same Law he gave to Zechariahs and Simeon, but they "Didn't keep it" while Zechariahs and Simeon did.

So then given these Biblical Facts, and the Holy Word's of Jesus Himself, isn't Paul "trying to undo/prevent the ill influences of the" man made religions popular in the land at that time" instead of, as Solerion implies, "trying to undo/prevent the ill influences of the" Laws of God that Jesus walked in? 

Shouldn't we at least have the discussion?








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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #47 on: Sun Oct 27, 2019 - 09:21:11 »
I can see that what "works of the law" refers to is now on the clear, in as much as it has been shown in this thread, and that without any further evidence to show otherwise.

That is, it refers to all the works that must be done by the man which are written in the book of the law, all that is embodied in the Law of Moses.

I think we now can move on to discuss the more important truth that is found in Gal. 2:16.

This all important truth, as per my reading of the passage and scriptures, is:

1. That no man is justified, or that no man is declared righteous, by the works of the Law.
2. That justification is by the faith of Jesus Christ.

In other words, justification of man is a matter of faith, not a matter of works. And justification of man is because of Jesus Christ, not because of the man.

In Galatians 2:16, as well as 3:2-5, Paul is presenting a contrast between trust in self and trust in Christ.

Am I to seek justification before God through my ability and performance of the Law, or do I seek for it in the One who died for me and fully accomplished for my justification what I could never do for myself?

Look at the parable in Luke 18:9-14. This is a perfect example of what Paul is talking about in Galatians. The Pharisee was standing on his pride and trusting in himself that he was righteous, in obedience to the Law. The tax collector was bowing in humility toward the One he truly trusted in.

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #48 on: Sun Oct 27, 2019 - 09:28:13 »
GB,

You don't know how to read.

You don't know how to read other people's posts, you don't know how to read the Bible; you just don't know how to read.

If you want to go on and continue to misconstrue what people are saying and to go on and adulterate the Bible with your self-made doctrine, go ahead, but I have no use for it.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #49 on: Sun Oct 27, 2019 - 09:47:46 »
What were the works of Abraham? Did he transgress the Commandments of God by his own ancient religious tradition? Did He promote Commandments of Men? Or did he follow God's instructions like Zechariahs and Simeon. Why there are men who claim to be God's Children who will not answer these questions is fascinating to me.

Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Abraham lived during the time spoken there by Paul, from Adam to Moses. It was the the when the Law (that given to Moses) was not yet given. And with that, we are to understand that during those times, sin is not imputed, by reason that there was no law that imputes it. Not that it means that during those times, there was no sin during those times. To the contrary, Paul says "until the law sin was in the world", meaning there was sin, even while no law imputes it to the offending man. That his was so is evidenced by the fact that all men who lived in those times had all died. Now, we know that the wages of sin is death.

So for your first question concerning Abraham, writing them all here would not be wise, so I will just ask you to read Genesis 12 until up to the time of his death. On your second question, consider what I discussed above. But I have to say that Abraham was obedient to what God had told him to do. On your third question, I know not any commandments of man that you may be referring to, which you ask if Abraham promoted such or not. On your last question, my answer is my comment on your second question, that Abraham was obedient to what God had told him to do.


*Striking this out to stick with the topic.

Quote
Quote: GB
I like your comment "require that new Christian converts obey the Law of Moses as they “understood” it as a pre-requisite to becoming a Christian"

That is the goal of Every Religion is it not? To convert members to "their religion" as "They" understand it.

Didn't Jesus do the same thing? Didn't He Require obedience to the Law of Moses, "AS He understood it" as a pre-requisite to becoming a Christian?

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Is there any other way to "Come to Jesus according to Him?

And didn't Paul preach to everyone the exact same thing.

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they (ALL) should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. (As a pre-requisite to becoming a Christian)

What I think you and Soterion are forgetting, is the truth that the Christ already discerned the Pharisees religion. Both as the Word of God, and as the man Jesus. He Already pointed out that they were not serving God at all, but serving satan. That they were not following or even promoting God's Word, rather, they taught for doctrines the Commandment of Men. They Transgressed God's Commandments by their Religious Traditions. That they did part of the Priesthood taking of the tithes and sacrificial "laws", but  "omitted" the weightier matters of the law of Moses from their religion. That Moses gave them the same Law he gave to Zechariahs and Simeon, but they "Didn't keep it" while Zechariahs and Simeon did.

So then given these Biblical Facts, and the Holy Word's of Jesus Himself, isn't Paul "trying to undo/prevent the ill influences of the" man made religions popular in the land at that time" instead of, as Solerion implies, "trying to undo/prevent the ill influences of the" Laws of God that Jesus walked in? 

Shouldn't we at least have the discussion?

I thought you said this "The purpose of this thread is to identify the context Paul used when referencing the "works of the Law" the Jews were "Doing", to be Justified by. "

And of course, this thread is about the OP, with the subject scriptures, Galatians 2:15-16.

So, I think sticking to that will be proper and wise.
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 27, 2019 - 10:27:05 by Michael2012 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #50 on: Sun Oct 27, 2019 - 10:20:50 »
In Galatians 2:16, as well as 3:2-5, Paul is presenting a contrast between trust in self and trust in Christ.

Am I to seek justification before God through my ability and performance of the Law, or do I seek for it in the One who died for me and fully accomplished for my justification what I could never do for myself?

Look at the parable in Luke 18:9-14. This is a perfect example of what Paul is talking about in Galatians. The Pharisee was standing on his pride and trusting in himself that he was righteous, in obedience to the Law. The tax collector was bowing in humility toward the One he truly trusted in.

What Paul was presenting in Gal. 2:16, in my reading, is the simple truth that, no man is justified, or that no man is declared righteous, by the works of the Law, and that justification is by the faith of Jesus Christ.

A sinner who seek to be justified by the works of the law, does so (in his pride or ignorance or foolishness), thinking that his righteous works by keeping the works of the law would somehow outweigh his sins, that he will, after all works considered, be justified (declared righteous).
 
What a sinner must seek to have is God's mercy and God's forgiveness. Only by having that will he be justified. And he will have that in no other but in Jesus Christ.

One must seek to be justified by Christ. 
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 27, 2019 - 10:31:50 by Michael2012 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #51 on: Sun Oct 27, 2019 - 10:55:58 »
Quote
Quote from: Jaime on Yesterday at 21:07:45
Obviously the Pharisees et al had bastardized the Law. The Judaizers wanted to require that new Christian converts obey the Law of Moses as they “understood” it as a pre-requisite to becoming a Christian as Soterion indicated. Works of the Law was circumcision etc of the Law of Moses as understood erroneously by some of the Jewish Christians. It was NOT just any muscular involvement, as some here insist, or confessing Jesus is Lord would not qualify because of the engagement of muscles of the mouth.
I agree.

GB, do you by that, agree with Jaime on what the "works of the Law" refers to and altogether drop what you say it refers to in your OP? 

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #52 on: Sun Oct 27, 2019 - 11:28:07 »
GB,

You don't know how to read.

You don't know how to read other people's posts, you don't know how to read the Bible; you just don't know how to read.

If you want to go on and continue to misconstrue what people are saying and to go on and adulterate the Bible with your self-made doctrine, go ahead, but I have no use for it.



Now Soterion, You can throw your fit, take your toys and go home if you like, and throw a few rocks on your way out. It is perfectly natural for anger to be the first response. But I am just responding to the implications of your preaching, your words. I asked you for scriptural support for your preaching in this matter and you blew it off. You can close you eyes and plug your ears if you want, but I am only responding to your own words.

Quote
It seems obvious to me that we should start at the purpose, or occasion, of the letter. Galatians was written to try to undo/prevent the ill influences of the Judaizers on the Galatian Christians. Paul had led them to justification in Christ, but the Judaizers were going behind him and demanding that these gentiles have to also hold to the law of Moses for justification before God.

The popular preaching that you are promoting implies that the Pharisees were promoting obedience to God's Laws as a pre-requisite for repentance and justification. That Paul was not teaching obedience to God as a pre-requisite for repentance and justification.

The implications of your preaching is that the Jews were going behind Paul's back and telling them they had to Love God and Love their Neighbor as themselves, and stop stealing, and stop hating your brother in your heart, etc.. as a "pre-requisite" for justification of God, and Paul set out to "undo/prevent the ill influences of these Judaizers".

"I have to say that "works of the Law" is referring to the law of Moses...any and all of it."

I asked for evidence from the Bible that the Pharisees were preaching these Laws of God, you ignore that as well.

Paul certainly didn't teach or believe that.

1 Cor. 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

And again;

Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

So in this thread there are two competing definitions and context of "works of the Law" in Galatians 2.

You preach, as do "many", that the Jews were trying to get the Galatians to obey God's Commandments as a pre-requisite for justification by God.

I have posted many scriptures which bring this understanding into question. You may believe that the Jews were trying to be justified by obeying God, and teaching others to do the same, but Jesus clearly teaches just the opposite.

Matt. 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

I, and others, have a different understanding which the Bible agrees with, as the scriptures themselves have demonstrated.

That The Jews by Nature, were going around behind Paul to the Galatians and telling them they could not be justified by God unless they went to a Levite Priest, purchased a Turtle Dove, and had the Priest perform "works of the Law" by sprinkling its blood on the alter as atonement for their sins, according to "their understanding" of the Levitical Priesthood, which was added to God's Law 430 years after Abraham, "Till the Seed should come".

As I have asked before, if you have Biblical Evidence that I am "Reading the Bible wrong", or if you can show me where I am "Reading your posts wrong", then don't just throw rocks and run away, present your evidence. But if this post simply exposes Leaven or a deception in you, thank God for revealing this to you, and Repent.

Don't stone the messenger.

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #53 on: Sun Oct 27, 2019 - 13:58:15 »


Now Soterion, You can throw your fit, take your toys and go home if you like, and throw a few rocks on your way out. It is perfectly natural for anger to be the first response. But I am just responding to the implications of your preaching, your words. I asked you for scriptural support for your preaching in this matter and you blew it off. You can close you eyes and plug your ears if you want, but I am only responding to your own words.

The popular preaching that you are promoting implies that the Pharisees were promoting obedience to God's Laws as a pre-requisite for repentance and justification. That Paul was not teaching obedience to God as a pre-requisite for repentance and justification.

The implications of your preaching is that the Jews were going behind Paul's back and telling them they had to Love God and Love their Neighbor as themselves, and stop stealing, and stop hating your brother in your heart, etc.. as a "pre-requisite" for justification of God, and Paul set out to "undo/prevent the ill influences of these Judaizers".

"I have to say that "works of the Law" is referring to the law of Moses...any and all of it."

I asked for evidence from the Bible that the Pharisees were preaching these Laws of God, you ignore that as well.

Paul certainly didn't teach or believe that.

1 Cor. 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

And again;

Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

So in this thread there are two competing definitions and context of "works of the Law" in Galatians 2.

You preach, as do "many", that the Jews were trying to get the Galatians to obey God's Commandments as a pre-requisite for justification by God.

I have posted many scriptures which bring this understanding into question. You may believe that the Jews were trying to be justified by obeying God, and teaching others to do the same, but Jesus clearly teaches just the opposite.

Matt. 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

I, and others, have a different understanding which the Bible agrees with, as the scriptures themselves have demonstrated.

That The Jews by Nature, were going around behind Paul to the Galatians and telling them they could not be justified by God unless they went to a Levite Priest, purchased a Turtle Dove, and had the Priest perform "works of the Law" by sprinkling its blood on the alter as atonement for their sins, according to "their understanding" of the Levitical Priesthood, which was added to God's Law 430 years after Abraham, "Till the Seed should come".

As I have asked before, if you have Biblical Evidence that I am "Reading the Bible wrong", or if you can show me where I am "Reading your posts wrong", then don't just throw rocks and run away, present your evidence. But if this post simply exposes Leaven or a deception in you, thank God for revealing this to you, and Repent.

Don't stone the messenger.

Terrible messenger.  You make no sense and then build up straw men.

Paul even describes some of these "works of the law." One is circumcision.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #54 on: Mon Oct 28, 2019 - 01:08:37 »
That The Jews by Nature, were going around behind Paul to the Galatians and telling them they could not be justified by God unless they went to a Levite Priest, purchased a Turtle Dove, and had the Priest perform "works of the Law" by sprinkling its blood on the alter as atonement for their sins, according to "their understanding" of the Levitical Priesthood, which was added to God's Law 430 years after Abraham, "Till the Seed should come".

I had already pointed out to you in Reply #38, to whom Paul is addressing what he says in Gal. 2:16. Apparently you ignored it or rejected it or did not see and hear the truth it says. Let me help you on this again, and perhaps you will now see and hear, God willing.

Gal. 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


What Paul says in verse 15 & 16 is addressed to Peter and those Jewish Christians with him. This can be learned from the immediate context (verses 11-14).

The "We" refers to no other but to Paul, to Peter and the Jewish Christians with them, to whom Paul was saying what he says in verses 14-16. In the general sense, that will go to refer to all Jewish Christians.

So, I can't seem to know where what you are preaching there and arguing for, is coming from. All I know is, it is not coming from scriptures. 

While there may be "Jews by nature" who believe that they could not be justified by God unless they went to a Levite Priest, purchased a Turtle Dove, and had the Priest perform "works of the Law" by sprinkling its blood on the altar as atonement for their sins, according to "their understanding" of the Levitical Priesthood (your words), that is not the subject in Galatians 2:15-16. So, again, it had been shown, how you mistake, misapply, and misunderstand scriptures, resulting to having a wrong understanding, and so, a false doctrine comes out of it.

I also have shown you in my Reply #37, what the "works of the Law" refers to. Let quote an excerpt of my Reply #37:

Quote from: Michael2012 Reply #37
Second, the context will give us a hint as to what Paul, by "works of the Law" is referring to.

11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Clearly, Paul is not referring to the laws of atonement for sin, but the whole Law wherein is embodied how the Jew should live their lives. Here, what Paul rebuked of Peter in verse 14, is not about the laws of atonement for sin, but the eating with Gentiles.

GB, if you had not read them yet, I suggest you read, if not read again my Reply #37 & 38. If you have any disagreement or question, you are most welcome to tell me.
« Last Edit: Mon Oct 28, 2019 - 06:03:25 by Michael2012 »

Offline RB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #55 on: Mon Oct 28, 2019 - 04:40:28 »
"I have to say that "works of the Law" is referring to the law of Moses...any and all of it."
Let us look to the scriptures and let Paul give to us his use of the term~ "works of the Law"~ so that we can get this behind us and move to the truth that Paul taught that is just the opposite of the works of the law~the gospel of Jesus Christ which has for its source the grace of God.
If we read ahead in Galatians to 5:1-7 we can see the purpose as to WHY he wrote what he did from Galatians 2:16 to 5:7~we see he is dealing with religious systems one trusts free promises; one earns by performance. Let me go to chapter three and consider a few scriptures and then back to Galatians 2:16.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 3:10~For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."
The quotation here proving Law duty from the Old Testament is taken from Deuteronomy 27:26. Anyone looking to their performances/obedience for their acceptance to God leaves them under the condemnation of God's law because no man can keep even ONE commandment perfectly, much less all of them. If a person trusted the Law (a system of performances be whatever that may be) for righteousness, he missed God’s FREE promises of justification through CHRIST'S obedience!

As we shall learn before leaving our defense of the truth, the Law was to drive us (us, being children of God already enlightened by the Spirit of God which we begun our faith by the power thereof) to Christ (3:21-26)....and Paul also taught its purpose was to make us exceedingly sinful before God as Michael has already pointed out. (Romans 7:9-14). I well remember just how unrighteous I felt after hearing the Sermon on the Mount explained with our Lord’s broad definitions to include even the attitude of the heart. But thanks be unto God the curse of the Law has been totally destroyed by Jesus Christ our Lord (3:13)!

Let it be clear that the issue in Galatians is NOT the status of their salvation, but the integrity of their religious system that they were beginning to lean toward because of the bewitching spirits of false prophets. I ask: what was the eternal, legal, and vital status of Cornelius before Peter (Acts 10:34-35)? I know, do you? I think not. As I said above~If we go ahead to Paul’s reasoning in 5:1-7, we see he is dealing with religious systems....one trusts free promises; one earns by performance.  Paul knew the Galatians were already justified (legally) before God (1:1-5; 3:2; 4:4-6,19,28; 5:1). Confusion about justification does not alter God’s purpose (Ephesians 1:3-6; 2nd Timothy 2:13).  The very the elect will be justified, but most likely not converted (Romans 8:29-34; 10:1-5; 2nd Timothy 2:10).
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 3:11~"But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith."
The Old Testament itself bore witness to the fact that Moses’ Law could not justify men, so Paul brings another argument to bear against those who trust a religious system of man's obedience instead of God's free promises of grace. Therefore, the Gentiles  (as us) were foolish to believe false teachers stressing the Law of Moses whose religious system is work based performed by man. The quotation here is from Habakkuk 2:4, where the life of the just is based on faith in God's promises of grace. This quotation from Habakkuk 2:4 is also used by Paul in Romans 1:17 and Hebrews 10:38. Those just before God and accepted with Him through Jesus Christ, live by faith, rather than by works of the Law to be accepted by him.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 3:12~"And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them."
Faith and Law are mutually exclusive~one trusts free promises; one earns by performance. Jesus answered a young man how he could be saved according to the Law (Matthew 19:16-17). However, faith as a condition is a work of the Law (Matt 23:23; John 6:28-29; Ist John 3:23). Faith that is not of the Law … EVEN faith is understood as only evidence of God’s free justification of the ungodly by Christ, rather than the conditional or instrumental basis for it (Romans 4:5). 
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 3:13~"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: "
The Law of Moses could not justify any man; it could only condemn and curse men for sins~for ONE sin. Remember from 3:10 that the Law of Moses only cursed men with condemnation.

God applied the Law’s penalty against His Son, though He was holy and sinless (Hebrews 7:26). Here is the first half of justification~ His blood/death made me “just as if I’d never sinned.” What is the other half? “Just as if I’d lived His holy life” (Romans 5:17-19; 2nd Corinthians 5:21).

Here are the great means of justification~the death of Christ~even for those with the Law! While the Law condemned and cursed all men, Jesus Christ became a curse by the Law! God’s curse against sin under the Law was applied to Christ on the cross (2nd Corinthians 5:21)! It pleased God to bruise the Lord Jesus Christ in our place for sin (Daniel 9:24; Isaiah 53:10).

Any man hung on a tree according to capital punishment by the Law was under God’s curse. Capital punishment was God’s most severe penalty attached to any crime under the Law. But capital punishment by hanging was a severe measure of cursing (Deuteronomy 21:22-23).

Now, by faith, we believe the record that God has given to us through holy men of God of old, this is the SYSTEM of which all of God's elect live under, we dare NOT add our works to this witness of heaven IN ORDER FOR GOD TO ACCEPT US. The JUST shall live by faith alone, this is the system in which God has chosen for us to come to KNOW that we have eternal life and this life is THROUGH his Son Jesus Christ.

Now let us go to Galatians 2:16 and consider it.
« Last Edit: Mon Oct 28, 2019 - 07:00:28 by RB »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #56 on: Mon Oct 28, 2019 - 06:52:30 »
Obviously the Pharisees et al had bastardized the Law. The Judaizers wanted to require that new Christian converts obey the Law of Moses as they “understood” it as a pre-requisite to becoming a Christian as Soterion indicated. Works of the Law was circumcision etc of the Law of Moses as understood erroneously by some of the Jewish Christians. It was NOT just any muscular involvement, as some here insist, or confessing Jesus is Lord would not qualify because of the engagement of muscles of the mouth.

Regarding Judaizers, such as those mentioned in Acts 15:5. They are Jewish Christians, mainly belonging to the sect of the Pharisees. They are requiring Gentile Christians to be circumcised and commanding them to keep the Law of Moses. They are not making it a pre-requisite to becoming a Christian.

There is really nothing wrong in that, but not in this case where the Judaizers preach and tell the brethren (that is, believers/Christians) “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved. (Acts 15:1)” When circumcision and the keeping of the Law of Moses, is made a requirement for salvation, or when they are made to appear as that would have the Christians be saved, then that is a perversion of the gospel of Christ and becomes wrong. For such lie somehow suppresses the truth concerning the salvation of both the Jew and the Gentile, which is expressed by Peter in Acts 15:11, saying "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

Offline RB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #57 on: Mon Oct 28, 2019 - 07:54:29 »
I only wanted to point out that the discussion thus far hasn't even come to an agreement or and understanding on the meaning of the phrase.
There has not  not been an agreement on salvation from sin and condemnation since the apostles meeting in Acts 15~Nevertheless, the truth has not changed since their given united agreement, that those who began in the Spirit are NOT made perfect, or even acceptable in the flesh, per...
Quote
Galatians 3:3"Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"
They began by being born of the Spirit of God~based upon God's promises and oath~and now they pursued to be acceptable to him by having confidence in their sinful flesh. Why be so foolish as to think that God will accept you into eternal life by your flesh obedience? Since you got started in great blessings of the gospel of the grace of God through the Spirit, will the flesh lift you EVEN higher?

How could the glorious and superior gospel of Christ be improved by the inferior Law? Their conversion had resulted in great blessings by the Spirit, but now they sought to please God by their flesh, as though they could! The gift of the Spirit was based on spiritual faith to believe in Jesus Christ (John 7:39). The Galatians had believed and obeyed the spiritual religion of Jesus Christ, but now they had added works of the flesh apart from the Spirit of Christ, in order to improve further? The works of the Law did not involve the Spirit; they were flesh actions done outwardly. They truly thought to improve on Jesus Christ by circumcision and avoiding pepperoni pizza! Paul called the Law of Moses and its commandments weak and unprofitable (Hebrews 7:18), carnal ordinances (Hebrews 9:10), rudiments of the world (Colossians 2:8,20), and beggarly elements in this very epistle (Galatians 4:9).
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 3:3~"Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"
What's even worse today is that men (GB and company) believe that one can begin in the flesh and even be made perfect by the same! That's even a greater heresy.   
« Last Edit: Mon Oct 28, 2019 - 08:02:16 by RB »

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #58 on: Mon Oct 28, 2019 - 08:59:57 »
Terrible messenger.  You make no sense and then build up straw men.

Paul even describes some of these "works of the law." One is circumcision.

Yes, Circumcision is also a "work of the Law". Maybe if the Jews had been more interested in understanding God's Words than making sure their Turtle Dove selling business grew, or making sure the tithes came rolling in, they might have become like Zechariahs.

The purpose of this thread is to challenge religious doctrines of the land, not just blindly follow them like the Jews did.

Imagine if the Jews had considered the following Word's in their own Bibles and discussed them, instead of just omitting them.

Lev. 26:41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:

42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

Or this one.

Duet 10:15 Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.

16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

Or this one;

Duet. 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. 8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.

Paul understood what these Scriptures in the Law and Prophets regarding Circumcision represented, he didn't just blindly follow the religious doctrines and traditions he was born into.

Rom. 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Just like the Law and Prophets taught, had they been interested in knowing.

Had the Jews considered "Every Word of God" as Jesus did, and instructed others to do, they might have tried to have a conversation such as the one I am trying to have here. And although "many" are more interested in their religious tradition, there may have been some who might be curious as to what God meant when He said to "Circumcise your heart" and come to Paul's understanding.

In like manner, modern religions preach that the Pharisees were trying to "earn" Salvation by following God's Laws, and teaching others, including the Galatians,  to do the same.

But when I consider everything that is taught about them, ALL the Word's of the Christ Jesus Himself who defines them, this religious doctrine doesn't line up with scriptures at all.

That is why I hope to have the conversation.








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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #59 on: Mon Oct 28, 2019 - 11:28:56 »
Quote
author=RB link=topic=104892.msg1055150583#msg1055150583 date=1572267269]
 Paul called the Law of Moses and its commandments weak and unprofitable (Hebrews 7:18),

Paul did not ever say that. You do, the Pope does, but not Paul as the following clearly demonstrates.

Heb. 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law (of Moses,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, (Levites appointing other levites to the Priesthood) but after the power of an endless life. (Obedient to God's Laws unto death, raised from the dead.)

This is not even talking about the 10 Commandments of God you preach are weak and unprofitable at all. It's talking about the Levitical Priesthood, where people were supposed to go to learn the Laws of God.

Here is what Paul actually says about God's Laws.

Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom. 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Not Vain deceit, Traditions of men, Rudiments of the world as you preach.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Not Carnal as you preach.

You are misrepresenting these scriptures horribly. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Heb. 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

What Commandment? "Love your neighbor as yourself"? Or are they speaking about the Levitical Priesthood that the Bible says was "Changed"?

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

What "LAW" have they been talking about that changed? It's right there in your own Bible. "The Levitical Priesthood".

Heb. 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

What Law made men High Priests? The 10 Commandments? No Red, you are completely infecting and miss-representing these scriptures. You should actually listen to God's Word instead of all the "other voices" out there.

Of course you will not acknowledge what is right there in front of your face.

Quote
carnal ordinances (Hebrews 9:10),

Heb. 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

You preach this is talking about the 10 Commandments, all of God's Laws. But it's not, it's talking again about "offerings and sacrifices".

Heb. 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;

This isn't talking about God's 10 Commandments, Love your neighbor as yourself, etc. This chapter is speaking to the "Changed Priesthood" promised in Jer. 31.

You are purposely, it seems, lying about this scripture. Why would you do such a thing?


Quote
rudiments of the world (Colossians 2:8,20),


Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

So in your religion, God is a man who gave you Laws which are "Vain Deceit", That His Commandments are "Traditions of Men", and that God's Laws are "Rudiments of the World".

This is why I speak out so loudly against you and the religion you peddle. I sit back and wonder, how can a man who claims to know so much about God, promote such falsehoods about His Word?

Quote
and beggarly elements in this very epistle (Galatians 4:9).


Gal. 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

So let me see if I have your preaching on this verse right. So when these men didn't know God they were obeying God's Laws which you believe are beggarly elements, then they turned to God, and must have rejected God's Laws for a time, but were now "Turning again" to obeying God's weak and beggarly Laws which bring them in bondage.

 ::pondering:: ::pondering::

Quote
What's even worse today is that men (GB and company) believe that one can begin in the flesh and even be made perfect by the same! That's even a greater heresy.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Rom. 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

You have it just backwards Red. Your religion, like the Pharisees religion, are the weak and Beggarly Elements men are held in bondage to. It is the preaching of men who are the "Vain Deceit", not God as you preach.

God's Word is Spiritual, His Laws are Spiritual. The Galatians didn't start in the Fleshy man made religions they were born into, they started in the Holy, Just, spiritual Word's of God. They were "Doers" of God's Law, that is starting in the Spirit. Not following religious men who twist God's Word to mold it to the religion they created.

The Pharisees were not trying to get the Galatians to obey the God of the Bible, they were trying to convert them to their man made religion, as you are doing here.

Man's religion, and the Pharisees religion, is the Vain Deceit, Traditions of man, and Rudiments of the World, whereby religious men deceive. Not God's Laws as you preach.










Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #60 on: Mon Oct 28, 2019 - 11:35:25 »
Yes, Circumcision is also a "work of the Law". Maybe if the Jews had been more interested in understanding God's Words than making sure their Turtle Dove selling business grew, or making sure the tithes came rolling in, they might have become like Zechariahs.

The purpose of this thread is to challenge religious doctrines of the land, not just blindly follow them like the Jews did.

Imagine if the Jews had considered the following Word's in their own Bibles and discussed them, instead of just omitting them.

Lev. 26:41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:

42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

Or this one.

Duet 10:15 Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.

16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

Or this one;

Duet. 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. 8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.

Paul understood what these Scriptures in the Law and Prophets regarding Circumcision represented, he didn't just blindly follow the religious doctrines and traditions he was born into.

Rom. 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Just like the Law and Prophets taught, had they been interested in knowing.

Had the Jews considered "Every Word of God" as Jesus did, and instructed others to do, they might have tried to have a conversation such as the one I am trying to have here. And although "many" are more interested in their religious tradition, there may have been some who might be curious as to what God meant when He said to "Circumcise your heart" and come to Paul's understanding.

In like manner, modern religions preach that the Pharisees were trying to "earn" Salvation by following God's Laws, and teaching others, including the Galatians,  to do the same.

But when I consider everything that is taught about them, ALL the Word's of the Christ Jesus Himself who defines them, this religious doctrine doesn't line up with scriptures at all.

That is why I hope to have the conversation.

Apparently you want a lot of things to discuss. But be reminded that this thread (you started) has this subject to deal with "Works of the Law". And in your OP, you had made reference to Gal. 2:15-16. Also, you brought up the matter as to what "works of the Law" refers to. You even said in one of your reply post, "The purpose of this thread is to identify the context Paul used when referencing the "works of the Law" the Jews were "Doing", to be Justified by." So, may I suggest that we focus on this, if this isn't settled yet.

In your OP, you teach that the "works of the Law", with reference to Gal. 2:15-16, refers to the law of atonement found in the Law of Moses. I, on the other hand said and have shown in scriptures that the "works of the Law" refers to all the works that must be done by the man which are written in the book of the law, all that is embodied in the Law of Moses. Soterion have it as referring to the law of Moses...any and all of it. Jaime have it referring to the Mosaic law. The 3 of us apparently have it similarly. You are the only one who have it differently. Yet, we haven't seen you refuted our common understanding of what it is.

What I see here is somehow an addition to what you take "works of the Law" to be. You said, Circumcision is also a "work of the Law". So what else would you like to add to your take of "works of the Law" in the OP? As of this time, you take as to refer to the laws on the atonement for sin and circumcision. And even while we take that to be what you make it to be, we haven't seen support coming from the scriptures that such is what it refers to.   



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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #61 on: Mon Oct 28, 2019 - 11:43:57 »
Gal. 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This verse is used by many to teach that obedience to God is not a requirement for Salvation. This is one of the foundation blocks of most mainstream religions.

Since I have learned the scriptures outside the influence of modern religions, I see the scriptures differently and would like to have a discussion about this verse. I would like to ask some questions and post some scriptures. I am not trying to promote any religion, rather, to have an honest discussions about what the Bible says.

What is a Jew by nature?

Rom. 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

So a Natural Jew would be someone who had the Oracles (an utterance from God) of God.

So then this would mean these Jews were sinners who had the Old Testament writings and Word's of God while the Gentiles were sinners who didn't.

So in the oracles of God, what was the "LAW" that was followed for atonement of justification of sins?

Lev. 4:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:

3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.

4 And he shall bring the bullock unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD; and shall lay his hand upon the bullock's head, and kill the bullock before the LORD.

5 And the priest that is anointed shall take of the bullock's blood, and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation:

So according to this understanding, the Natural Jews who were sinners, were to take an animal to the priest who would then kill the animal and perform "Work's of the Law" to atone for the Natural Jews sins.

20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it (the sin) shall be forgiven them.

So the Natural Jews, who didn't believe Jesus was the Unblemished Lamb of God, the Prophesied Messiah, were still performing and relying on these "Works of the Law" for justification of sins (Transgressions of God's Law).

But I have heard countless people, who come in Christ's Name, who preach that the "Works of the Law" Paul is speaking to here are not those sacrificial Laws God created for atonement "Till the Seed should come", rather, the 10 Commandments, and other "Oracles" of God.

What were the "sins" of the Gentiles? Were they also called sinners because they transgressed God's Commandments? Weren't the Natural Jews telling the Gentiles that they were required to rely on the "Works of the Law" God created for atonement of sins, instead of telling them the truth Zechariahs and Simeon knew, which was that Jesus was the High Priest who gave His own life for atonement of our sins and these Old Testament sacrifices was a "shadow" of His Coming? 

How is it these "works of the Law" for atonement, went from animal sacrifice to obeying any Commandment of God?
I think your reading of the Scriptures is off here.

Jewish thinking on the Torah separates negative commandments (thou shalt not) and positive commandments, which are things you must do.  The "works of the law" refers to these positive commandments - things like tithing crops, leaving the corners of your field for the poor, sheltering sojourners, and making 4 trips to Jerusalem each year to observe the required feasts.

Further, atonement - which is what you are talking about here - is not viewed as a requirement or commandment at all, but rather as a remedy when the law is violated.  The law allows for judgment (eye for an eye principle) or else atonement (paying a substitutionary penalty in a common currency - animals were a common currency for them).

In short, sacrifices were never "works of the law."

Jarrod

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #62 on: Mon Oct 28, 2019 - 12:53:29 »
Quote
Quote from: GB on Fri Oct 25, 2019 - 13:21:37
Gal. 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This verse is used by many to teach that obedience to God is not a requirement for Salvation. This is one of the foundation blocks of most mainstream religions.

Since I have learned the scriptures outside the influence of modern religions, I see the scriptures differently and would like to have a discussion about this verse. I would like to ask some questions and post some scriptures. I am not trying to promote any religion, rather, to have an honest discussions about what the Bible says.

What is a Jew by nature?

Rom. 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

So a Natural Jew would be someone who had the Oracles (an utterance from God) of God.

So then this would mean these Jews were sinners who had the Old Testament writings and Word's of God while the Gentiles were sinners who didn't.

So in the oracles of God, what was the "LAW" that was followed for atonement of justification of sins?

Lev. 4:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:

3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.

4 And he shall bring the bullock unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD; and shall lay his hand upon the bullock's head, and kill the bullock before the LORD.

5 And the priest that is anointed shall take of the bullock's blood, and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation:

So according to this understanding, the Natural Jews who were sinners, were to take an animal to the priest who would then kill the animal and perform "Work's of the Law" to atone for the Natural Jews sins.

20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it (the sin) shall be forgiven them.

So the Natural Jews, who didn't believe Jesus was the Unblemished Lamb of God, the Prophesied Messiah, were still performing and relying on these "Works of the Law" for justification of sins (Transgressions of God's Law).

But I have heard countless people, who come in Christ's Name, who preach that the "Works of the Law" Paul is speaking to here are not those sacrificial Laws God created for atonement "Till the Seed should come", rather, the 10 Commandments, and other "Oracles" of God.

What were the "sins" of the Gentiles? Were they also called sinners because they transgressed God's Commandments? Weren't the Natural Jews telling the Gentiles that they were required to rely on the "Works of the Law" God created for atonement of sins, instead of telling them the truth Zechariahs and Simeon knew, which was that Jesus was the High Priest who gave His own life for atonement of our sins and these Old Testament sacrifices was a "shadow" of His Coming?

How is it these "works of the Law" for atonement, went from animal sacrifice to obeying any Commandment of God?
I think your reading of the Scriptures is off here.

I agree with you on that.

Quote from: Jarrod
Jewish thinking on the Torah separates negative commandments (thou shalt not) and positive commandments, which are things you must do.  The "works of the law" refers to these positive commandments - things like tithing crops, leaving the corners of your field for the poor, sheltering sojourners, and making 4 trips to Jerusalem each year to observe the required feasts.

I don't think you got it right here Jarrod. The "works of the law" refers to all the works that must be done by the man which are written in the book of the law, all that is embodied in the Law of Moses. That includes what you call negative and positive commandments. In fact, it includes the whole Law wherein is embodied how the Jew should live their lives. In the passage under consideration in the OP, that is, Gal. 2:15-16, the immediate context (verses 11-14) tells us what made Paul rebuke Peter in verse 14. And this is where what Paul says in verse 15-16 is coming from. In verse 14, Paul said to Peter, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?". So, it's about living as Jews, which manner of living is embodied in the entire Mosaic Law, including both the negative and positive commandments. This is corroborated by Acts 15:5 ~ The Gentile Christians in view, the Jewish Christians (of the sect of the Pharisees) belonging to the church at Jerusalem said "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses." That would be including both the negative and positive commandments, isn't it?   

Quote from:
Further, atonement - which is what you are talking about here - is not viewed as a requirement or commandment at all, but rather as a remedy when the law is violated.  The law allows for judgment (eye for an eye principle) or else atonement (paying a substitutionary penalty in a common currency - animals were a common currency for them).

In short, sacrifices were never "works of the law."

I would say that while atonement may well be a remedy when the law is violated, it too is a law, and is part of the Mosaic Law.

Also, I would say that the offering of sacrifices are included in "works of the Law". 

Online GB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #63 on: Mon Oct 28, 2019 - 14:01:47 »
I think your reading of the Scriptures is off here.

Jewish thinking on the Torah separates negative commandments (thou shalt not) and positive commandments, which are things you must do.  The "works of the law" refers to these positive commandments - things like tithing crops, leaving the corners of your field for the poor, sheltering sojourners, and making 4 trips to Jerusalem each year to observe the required feasts.

Further, atonement - which is what you are talking about here - is not viewed as a requirement or commandment at all, but rather as a remedy when the law is violated.  The law allows for judgment (eye for an eye principle) or else atonement (paying a substitutionary penalty in a common currency - animals were a common currency for them).

In short, sacrifices were never "works of the law."

Jarrod

I have heard this teaching before.

Rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

I'm not sure how the Scriptures support the teaching that the Levitical Priesthood and all that pertains to it, is not a "Law of Works".



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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #64 on: Mon Oct 28, 2019 - 20:38:05 »
I would say that while atonement may well be a remedy when the law is violated, it too is a law, and is part of the Mosaic Law.
First, I appreciate your thought out response.

Allow me to introduce a logical complication to your arguments.  Let's allow for a minute your argument that the Levitical priesthood (including sacrifices, etc) is part of the Law.  Let's further adopt your inclusive view of the Law - it is a single whole.  Now, we know from Scripture that the Law is not abolished (Matthew 5).  We also know that the Levitical priesthood has been abolished (Hebrews 7).  How is it possible that only a portion of the Law can be abolished while another part is not?  There is a logical problem here, so I think your view needs refinement.


Also, I would say that the offering of sacrifices are included in "works of the Law".
I am of the opinion that Leviticus was a handbook for Levitical priests.  I do not think it was intended (or used early in Israel's history) as a standard for behavior for laypersons.  I believe that Deuteronomy was the original Book of the Law used by the Jews as they entered the promised land, and it remained that way til at least the reign of David, but more likely til the time of Ezra, and possibly even later.

I think the New-Testament-era Scribes and Tannaim who tried to bind it on the whole population were misguided.  I find Jesus rebuking Pharisees in the New Testament for trying to bind things on the people which they themselves cannot keep.

Jarrod

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #65 on: Tue Oct 29, 2019 - 04:45:11 »
Paul did not ever say that. You do, the Pope does, but not Paul as the following clearly demonstrates.
GB, you are not an easy person to debate scriptures with, mainly because you are all over the place going here, going there, but very seldom dealing with the subject under consideration, or even considering the sense in which people understand the scripture~you making posts that are truly not even addressing what your opponents are saying, and adding to their words things that they have never said.
Quote from: GB Reply #59 on: Yesterday at 11:28:56
This is not even talking about the 10 Commandments of God you preach are weak and unprofitable at all. It's talking about the Levitical Priesthood, where people were supposed to go to learn the Laws of God.

Here is what Paul actually says about God's Laws. ...........................Rom. 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
You need to learn how to carry on a profitable debate, and at the moment you are not even close to it. So, I will do what I can to make sense of your post, and show how you do not follow arguments very well, in your irrational and illogical manner in which you make your rebuttals and try to prove your points.

I have never said that the Law of God which are summed up in the ten commandments were not spiritual, holy and good, of course, they are, and that's the very reason why we have a new covenant of GRACE, and not a covenant based on WORKS!
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Hebrews 8:7,8~"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:"
Even though the first covenant of WORKS made with Adam, then with Israel was truly, spiritual, holy, and good, yet it was NOT WITHOUT FAULT~the fault itself was NOT with the law, but with FLESH and BLOOD, who were UNABLE to keep the spiritual law of God, THereby, God sought another covenant where HE HIMSELF would undertake for those who were chosen to be part of the New Covenant of grace~he would write his laws IN THEIR HEARTS and give them the POWER to walk in them by giving them his Spirit.

So IN THIS SENSE, the first covenant was weak and beggarly in that it did NOT SECURE LIFE for those under it as the New Covenant did with its SURETY securing the spiritual blessings for those who were children of God's promises under the New Covenant. I must move on.
Quote from: GB Reply #59 on: Yesterday at 11:28:56
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Not Carnal as you preach.
Never said that the law is carnal, those are your words. Yet by using your own words you are proving my point for me.
Quote
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin
Yes we do know that the law is SPIRITUAL, but we all are carnal, sold under sin! The fault is NOT with God's law but WITH MEN of flesh and blood! For THIS REASON, the first covenant of WORKS, or the works of the law, summed up in the ten commandments, are nothing more than an YOKE of bondage around our necks IF we are to seek the inheritance THROUGH such works, for it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to keep even one of them perfectly, much less all of them! ALL MEN are carnal sold under sin.
Quote
You are misrepresenting these scriptures horribly. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Not agreeing with your sir is NOT misrepresenting the scriptures as you think. We shall let God show who is guilty of such.

I'm coming back and pick up where I left off~RB
« Last Edit: Tue Oct 29, 2019 - 13:28:16 by RB »

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #66 on: Tue Oct 29, 2019 - 09:58:16 »
Quote
author=RB link=topic=104892.msg1055150653#msg1055150653 date=1572342311]
GB, you are not an easy person to debate scriptures with, mainly because you are all over the place going here,


We see and use the Bible differently. You use what parts of it you can to promote a popular religious franchise. I use it to be wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

You select verses which can be used to promote your religious belief that God's Laws are a burden around your neck. I use all the scriptures for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

This is neither here nor there, just an observation.

You are the one who seems to all over the place.

Quote
I have never said that the Law of God which are summed up in the ten commandments were not spiritual, holy and good, of course, they are,

And again;

"I Never said that the law is carnal, those are your words. Yet by using your own words you are proving my point for me."

Your preaching.

"Paul called the Law of Moses and its commandments weak and unprofitable (Hebrews 7:18), carnal ordinances (Hebrews 9:10), rudiments of the world (Colossians 2:8,20), and beggarly elements in this very epistle (Galatians 4:9)."

This is a lie Red. This statement is simply untrue. I posted each verse in context and what you preach, and what Paul is teaching are two completely different doctrines.

"For THIS REASON, the first covenant of WORKS, or the works of the law, summed up in the ten commandments, are nothing more than an YOKE of bondage around our necks IF we are to seek the inheritance THROUGH such works, for it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to keep even one of them"

God said, and His son Jesus said to Keep Their Commandments. You are preaching exactly what the serpent convinced Eve of.

Gen. 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (You are already saved)

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, (Break His Commandment) then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.




I just don't believe the whole mainstream believed on in the world religious doctrine that you promote, namely that God, the Great God of Abraham, created instructions for mankind so egregious, so burdensome, so weak that it was impossible for man to keep even one of them, then this same God Commanded His Creation to obey them, then this same God slaughtered tens of thousands of people He created, because they didn't obey His Laws that He created impossible to follow.

So His Son had to come to earth and save you from this unjust, unfair God and His Laws that are "A Yoke of Bondage" around the neck of anyone who would strive to simply "DO" as He instructed.

This is Babylon Red, you need to "Come out of her" my friend before it's too late.



Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #67 on: Tue Oct 29, 2019 - 18:09:07 »
GB,

I'm waiting for you to respond to Reply #37, 38, 51, 54, 60

Thanks.
« Last Edit: Tue Oct 29, 2019 - 18:24:51 by Michael2012 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #68 on: Tue Oct 29, 2019 - 18:25:53 »
GB,

In relation to your Reply #66, you must not forget what scriptures says why the law was given.

1. Gal. 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

2. Romans 4:15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

3. Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Also, consider what this passage says:

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
« Last Edit: Tue Oct 29, 2019 - 18:51:24 by Michael2012 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #69 on: Tue Oct 29, 2019 - 19:35:32 »
First, I appreciate your thought out response.

Allow me to introduce a logical complication to your arguments.  Let's allow for a minute your argument that the Levitical priesthood (including sacrifices, etc) is part of the Law.  Let's further adopt your inclusive view of the Law - it is a single whole.  Now, we know from Scripture that the Law is not abolished (Matthew 5).  We also know that the Levitical priesthood has been abolished (Hebrews 7).  How is it possible that only a portion of the Law can be abolished while another part is not?  There is a logical problem here, so I think your view needs refinement.

First, I am with the understanding that the Law was made obsolete, at least in relation to the Christian. Not that the righteousness of God taught by the Law is no longer regarded by the Christian. It being part of the old covenant, it was made obsolete in the sense that there is now a new covenant which replaces the former covenant. This new covenant being between God and the Christians.

Also, consider the following scriptures:

Gal. 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.

The Seed, that is, Jesus Christ had already come. Thus the Law had served it's time and purpose, at least to the Christian.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Romans 7:6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

The Christian is not under law, but under grace. Thus, the Christian is not bound by the Law. The Christian is free from the Law.

Quote from: Jarrod
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 12:53:29
Also, I would say that the offering of sacrifices are included in "works of the Law".
I am of the opinion that Leviticus was a handbook for Levitical priests.  I do not think it was intended (or used early in Israel's history) as a standard for behavior for laypersons.  I believe that Deuteronomy was the original Book of the Law used by the Jews as they entered the promised land, and it remained that way til at least the reign of David, but more likely til the time of Ezra, and possibly even later.

I think the New-Testament-era Scribes and Tannaim who tried to bind it on the whole population were misguided.  I find Jesus rebuking Pharisees in the New Testament for trying to bind things on the people which they themselves cannot keep.

The fact is, the levitical priesthood and the rituals and sacrifices that goes with it, are part of the Law that God gave to Moses and part of the old covenant.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.

Hebrews 10:8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law),