Author Topic: Works of the Law  (Read 7294 times)

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Offline RB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #70 on: Wed Oct 30, 2019 - 04:15:00 »
First, I am with the understanding that the Law was made obsolete, at least in relation to the Christian.
Michael, I would like to say a few things about this after Jarrod is first given a chance to answer your post to him.

For now, I will only say we are NOT under the law a means to enter into life, but are as a "rule of life" while living in this world~ for there is no greater law that is more spiritual, good and holy than the law of God. We are NOT under the CONDEMNATION of it by our sins through the body of Jesus Christ. We are dead to the law through Christ, yet delight in the spiritual law of God as a means to live our life by, NOT to gain eternal life thereby, but to please God in our hearts as we strive to walk in the holy steps of Jesus Christ. Enough until Jarrod answers his own post.
« Last Edit: Wed Oct 30, 2019 - 04:17:13 by RB »

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #70 on: Wed Oct 30, 2019 - 04:15:00 »

Offline RB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #71 on: Wed Oct 30, 2019 - 06:31:27 »
We see and use the Bible differently.
True, and at least with you, I'm thankful to God that I do see and use his word of God much different than you do. We possess two different gospels~one by grace alone through the obedience of Jesus Christ; the other, by works through our own obedience.
Quote from: GB Reply #66 on: Yesterday at 09:58:16
You use what parts of it you can to promote a popular religious franchise. I use it to be wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
My gospel that I glory in is far from being popular in our days, in times past, yes, but not in these last days~ it is the most hated gospel by the religion of Mystery of Babylon from RCC/EOC to every sect that you can name under heaven, I know for I have held to this for almost fifty years and it has taken me from the churches in Mystery Babylon to my living room with a handful of believers for most of my life as a Christian. Your doctrine would be accepted in many places to some degree~only your irrational thinking and illogical methods would be rejected by many who have a certain measure of truth.
Quote from: GB Reply #66 on: Yesterday at 09:58:16
You select verses which can be used to promote your religious belief
I think that most would agree that I used the scriptures in a much broader manner than you have ever attempted to do. I have never limited myself to a select few scriptures, but address any and all that is put before me and many that have not ever been pressed upon me to answer. I think that I have a much broader understanding of the scriptures than you do with half of the time under your belt that I have, so that would go without even have to mention this. This is just another one of the many fallacies that you use because of your limited knowledge in defending what you believe to be the truth.
Quote
religious belief that God's Laws are a burden around your neck.
Again sir, the law as a rule of life for beleivers is NO yoke around our neck, but something that we DELIGHT IN, but it is a yoke around anyone's neck as a means of entering into life, or to receive the  PROMISED to us~per..
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 3:18~"For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise."
God promised Abraham an inheritance of land, which both Abraham and we understand to be the world to come (Acts 7:1-2; Hebrews 11:8-16). If, like you beleive, the inheritance of heaven was by works of the Law, then it could not be by a covenant of GRACE promise to Abraham, for law and promise are incompatible. God defined a contrast between grace and works and between promise and law (Romans 11:5-6).
Quote from: GB  Reply #66 on: Yesterday at 09:58:16
Your preaching.

"Paul called the Law of Moses and its commandments weak and unprofitable (Hebrews 7:18), carnal ordinances (Hebrews 9:10), rudiments of the world (Colossians 2:8,20), and beggarly elements in this very epistle (Galatians 4:9)."

This is a lie Red. This statement is simply untrue. I posted each verse in context and what you preach, and what Paul is teaching are two completely different doctrines.

"For THIS REASON, the first covenant of WORKS, or the works of the law, summed up in the ten commandments, are nothing more than an YOKE of bondage around our necks IF we are to seek the inheritance THROUGH such works, for it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to keep even one of them"
You are NOT hearing what I'm saying, notice carefully my words and if you have a word to say, then address EXACTLY what I'm saying, not what you want to believe I'm saying.
Quote from: RB
"For THIS REASON, the first covenant of WORKS, or the works of the law, summed up in the ten commandments, are nothing more than an YOKE of bondage around our necks IF we are to seek the inheritance THROUGH such works, for it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to keep even one of them"
I'm saying no more than what Paul said two thousand years ago to your religious friends and fellow-laborers" who labored to bewitch the saints in Galaitia.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 5:1-4~"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."
I'm coming back to these scriptures and consider them more in-depth. Not that I believe it will help you, but others who are truth seekers and lovers of the liberty that we have IN CHRIST'S obedinece from the works of the law as far as seeking our justification through the works of the law and not through Christ ALONE.
« Last Edit: Wed Oct 30, 2019 - 06:34:09 by RB »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #72 on: Wed Oct 30, 2019 - 06:42:31 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 19:35:32
First, I am with the understanding that the Law was made obsolete, at least in relation to the Christian.
Michael, I would like to say a few things about this after Jarrod is first given a chance to answer your post to him.

For now, I will only say we are NOT under the law a means to enter into life, but are as a "rule of life" while living in this world~ for there is no greater law that is more spiritual, good and holy than the law of God. We are NOT under the CONDEMNATION of it by our sins through the body of Jesus Christ. We are dead to the law through Christ, yet delight in the spiritual law of God as a means to live our life by, NOT to gain eternal life thereby, but to please God in our hearts as we strive to walk in the holy steps of Jesus Christ. Enough until Jarrod answers his own post.

It's alright RB. You can go ahead and tell me what you want to say to me.

We agree on the points that we are NOT under the law a means to enter into life; that the law is spiritual, good and holy; that we are NOT under the CONDEMNATION of the Law because of our sins through the body of Jesus Christ; that we are dead to the law through Christ.

But we are speaking of the Law that which is part of the former covenant, which includes any and all laws and commandments that God gave to Israel through Moses. This includes the ten commandments, all moral laws, laws on atonement, etc...

And as I have said in my other post, the Law, being part of the old covenant, was made obsolete in the sense that there is now a new covenant which replaces the former covenant. Let me be clear on this, that this is in no way meaning to say that the ten commandments and all moral laws contained in the Law no longer stand to speak of the righteousness and righteous will of God. In fact, in the new testament scriptures, it is said:

Quote from: Paul
Romans 13:9-11
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law
.

I also said "Not that the righteousness of God taught by the Law is no longer regarded by the Christian." How does the Christian regard the Law? Besides what I said above, the Law, had been made obsolete, in relation to the change of covenant, but not in relation to the Holy Scriptures of God. The Law is part of the scriptures. And scriptures says concerning scriptures in the following passage:

Quote from: Paul
2 Timothy 3:15-17
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works
.

I also said "The Seed, that is, Jesus Christ had already come. Thus the Law had served it's time and purpose, at least to the Christian." Not that the Law is of no use and value to the Christian, for it is indeed of use and of great value, as I have explained above. 2 Tim. 3:15-17 clearly speaks of this. But as concerning the purpose as to why the Law was added to form part of the former covenant between Israel and God, the Law had served it's time as the Seed, who is Jesus Christ had already come, and served its purpose, at least to the Christian who acknowledge and believe that the Seed had come in the person of Jesus Christ, and so also faith had already come.

Quote from: Paul
Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

I also said that "The Christian is not under law, but under grace. Thus, the Christian is not bound by the Law. The Christian is free from the Law." Not under Law to mean that we are not bound by the Law, to mean further that we are in no way under the JUDGMENT and CONDEMNATION of the Law. For it is said:

Quote from: Paul
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.



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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #72 on: Wed Oct 30, 2019 - 06:42:31 »

Offline RB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #73 on: Wed Oct 30, 2019 - 08:00:31 »
Michael, I would like to say a few things about this after Jarrod is first given a chance to answer your post to him.
We are very close, I agree. I'll be short since I do have a commitment to take care of. One thing:
Quote
Galatians 3:24~"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith."
Arriving at an intermediate conclusion, Paul summarizes that the Law was pointing to Christ. Since the Law could not justify anyone, but only condemned everyone ~it looked elsewhere.

Due to Paul’s varying use of faith, we must decide the sense of faith here in this context. If we make it our simple faith in Christ, then it is encouraging believers with promises. If we make it Christ Himself and His gospel, as the previous verse, it is for believers. Faith is used for Christ, the gospel of grace, and God’s promises of life to believers. All men are justified and saved the same way~by the grace of God in Jesus Christ~but the Law was BELIEVER'S schoolmaster in directing the understanding of THEM toward the gospel of Christ, their total dependence on CHRIST ALONE for their legal justification~as we hear our schoolmaster teach us, and understand what he is saying, it will cause us to LOOK OUTSIDE of our own works and put our faith totally IN CHRIST's faith/obedience and righteousness as our ONLY hope of eternal life.

Now, that being said ONCE we understand our schoolmaster's lesson that he teaches us, THEN we are NO LONGER under his teaching, we can MOVE ON to be a schoolmaster for other younger believers seeking the truth as it is IN Jesus Christ and we take with us the lessons learned from the SCHOOLMASTER to direct men to put their faith in CHRIST ALONE for free justification of their sins.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 3:25~"But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Jesus Christ and His gospel reveal how eternal life was secured by grace alone through Jesus Christ. (2nd Timothy 1:9-10). Since Jesus Christ, the promised seed of Abraham, and His gospel and religious system have arrived, there is no further need for the Law of Moses which simply pointed to Jesus Christ. The law which God ordained to be a schoolmaster FOR HIS CHILDREN, and ONCE they learn from the schoolmaster their total need of Christ's obedience and righteousness, the schoolmaster has DONE HIS JOD FOR THEM and they cease from continuously needing him to teach them their need of Jesus' faith and obedience.

Some of the elect are still in NEED of being taught by the schoolmaster, for they are trusting in their own works ALONE with believing in Jesus Christ.

I trust this makes sense to you for I clearly see what Paul is saying, but to take what we see and break the same down and make it a simple as possible so we can teach others is not an easy task~it take a special gift from God to do so. 
« Last Edit: Wed Oct 30, 2019 - 08:07:11 by RB »

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #73 on: Wed Oct 30, 2019 - 08:00:31 »
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Offline GB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #74 on: Wed Oct 30, 2019 - 08:39:04 »
Galatians 3:18~"For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise."


God promised Abraham an inheritance of land, which both Abraham and we understand to be the world to come (Acts 7:1-2; Hebrews 11:8-16). If, like you beleive, the inheritance of heaven was by works of the Law, then it could not be by a covenant of GRACE promise to Abraham, for law and promise are incompatible. God defined a contrast between grace and works and between promise and law (Romans 11:5-6).

Red, Abraham was a "Doer" of God's Law, not a hearer only.

The Christ has the same message for all mankind.

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, (ALL) Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

This is the Christ's definition of Faith. Not yours, not the Pope's, but clearly the Christ's.

This is the exact same instruction this same Christ gave to Abram.

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

There is no difference between this instruction of the Christ, and the instruction the Christ gave in Mark 8. "Deny thyself, and follow me"

This is the same instruction this same Christ gave to Cain. "If you do well (deny yourself and follow Me) shall thou not be accepted".

And what was Abram's response? "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him"

Abraham chose to be a "Doer" of Christ's Instruction, and for this reason both he and his Spiritual Children after him were blessed. How do I know this? Because the Christ specifically told me in His Word..

Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

And again as the Prophesied Messiah;

John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

But we know for sure that Abraham didn't have one specific set of Laws given by the Christ to Moses on Mt. Sinai. He had God's Laws, God's Statutes, God's Commandments, as it is written, but he didn't have the Laws regarding atonement of sins God gave to Levi. Levi wasn't even born yet. This is simply a Biblical fact. Paul said this "Law of Works" was not even "ADDED" until 430 years after Abraham. And it was only "ADDED" till the Seed should come which aligns perfectly with all scripture because the Levitical Priesthood was a shadow of the Christ's sacrifice and Priesthood to begin with.

Paul is explaining to the Jews, who had built their religion around their version of the Levitical Priesthood, that Abraham was most certainly Justified, but not by the Work's of a Law that wasn't even given until 430 years later.

Abraham was a "Doer" of the Law, and like Paul teaches, "13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."

Abraham was justified by Faith, defined by the Christ as believing in Him enough to "deny our self and follow Him".

But Abraham was not justified by the "works" of the Levitical Priesthood he didn't even have.

But because you have learned from religious men, you can't see it. To preach that Abraham was "justified" because he created his own religion, or because he didn't obey God is just foolishness. God called Cain, and Cain refused to deny himself and follow Him. God called Abram and Abram departed as the Lord had instructed. Only after Abram "denied himself" in obedience to the Christ was he given a new name, to symbolize the obedient, faithful "New Man" after the disobedient, unfaithful old man was crucified with Christ.

There is only one spirit which promotes the elimination of God's instructions, and it's not the Spirit of the Christ.

This is why I implore you to "come out of her" before it's too late.

















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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #74 on: Wed Oct 30, 2019 - 08:39:04 »



Offline RB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #75 on: Wed Oct 30, 2019 - 15:05:32 »
Red, Abraham was a "Doer" of God's Law, not a hearer only.
GB, I'm coming very close to washing my hands with you. We are not discussing this issue, and I have never denied that Abraham was not a doer of the word of God, never. I fully understand that Abraham was justified by work in the sense in which God spoke of Abraham being justified by works and not by faith only. Actually, I understand BOTH senses, and "NEITHER" makes void being justified by Christ's faith/obedience. ALL three can be supported by God's testimony. But, not by your reckless manner of mutilating God's word just to prove your work gospel.

Now, why do you keep building strawman arguments against men who reject your disarranged rebuttals, that is worse than the worse hair day my little seven old granddaughter has ever had after playing all day outside in the hot weather with the wind blowing and her hair flying all different directions ending up is one big tangled mess.
Quote from: GB on: Today at 08:39:04
Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, (ALL) Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

This is the Christ's definition of Faith. Not yours, not the Pope's, but clearly the Christ's.

This is the exact same instruction this same Christ gave to Abram.

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

There is no difference between this instruction of the Christ, and the instruction the Christ gave in Mark 8. "Deny thyself, and follow me"
Why use these scriptures based upon what I said in my previous post to you? It makes no sense, which only proves what I have said above that your posts are irrational and illogical.  We do not disagree with these scriptures and in their proper threads dealing with such subjects as WORKS DO FOLLOW TRUE FAITH then I would use such scriptures. But this is NOT what we are discussing.

I'm stopping and going straight to Galatians 2:15,16 and deal with them which is what you started your thread with. If you continue doing what you are doing, then I'm finished with you.

Are we saved from sin and condemnation by US obeying the works of the law, or by the faith/obedience of Jesus Christ obeying perfectly the law of God in our place? Can you only deal with this point? I have my doubts that you can. Let us see who has the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.   

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #75 on: Wed Oct 30, 2019 - 15:05:32 »

Offline GB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #76 on: Thu Oct 31, 2019 - 07:38:57 »
GB, I'm coming very close to washing my hands with you. We are not discussing this issue, and I have never denied that Abraham was not a doer of the word of God, never. I fully understand that Abraham was justified by work in the sense in which God spoke of Abraham being justified by works and not by faith only. Actually, I understand BOTH senses, and "NEITHER" makes void being justified by Christ's faith/obedience. ALL three can be supported by God's testimony. But, not by your reckless manner of mutilating God's word just to prove your work gospel.

Now, why do you keep building strawman arguments against men who reject your disarranged rebuttals, that is worse than the worse hair day my little seven old granddaughter has ever had after playing all day outside in the hot weather with the wind blowing and her hair flying all different directions ending up is one big tangled mess.  Why use these scriptures based upon what I said in my previous post to you? It makes no sense, which only proves what I have said above that your posts are irrational and illogical.  We do not disagree with these scriptures and in their proper threads dealing with such subjects as WORKS DO FOLLOW TRUE FAITH then I would use such scriptures. But this is NOT what we are discussing.

I'm stopping and going straight to Galatians 2:15,16 and deal with them which is what you started your thread with. If you continue doing what you are doing, then I'm finished with you.

Are we saved from sin and condemnation by US obeying the works of the law, or by the faith/obedience of Jesus Christ obeying perfectly the law of God in our place? Can you only deal with this point? I have my doubts that you can. Let us see who has the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.   


Red, Works define true Faith, they don't just follow them.

 You preach it is impossible to obey even one of God's Commandments without Him first picking you from some invisible lottery, and then granting you some supernatural power. This is a common teaching among the religions of the land, but can not be supported by every Word of God. I am simply showing that much of your religious belief doesn't from the Word of God. I would think you would want to know.

I fully expect that you will work to silence me, probably report me, as I ask these difficult questions and post your statements with scriptures which bring much of them into question.

Quote
"Actually, I understand BOTH senses, and "NEITHER" makes void being justified by Christ's faith/obedience".

We are not saved because Jesus was obedient. He didn't "deny Himself" so we don't have to. He didn't obey God's Commandments so we don't have to. He did these things so our slate could be clean to begin anew. To put on the New Man. He offered His blameless Blood (Life) for mine, but I must "Take His Blood" (Life) and follow His instructions regarding it. At least according to Him.

Eph. 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye (Not Jesus putting off for us) put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

This is why God gave us His Word.

2 Tim. 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures,(Law and Prophets) which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


And then as Paul teaches:

Rom. 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: (Not the Deeds of the Christ) 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

You refuse to even acknowledge the Biblical Truth that Abraham had God's Laws, except for the Levitical Priesthood which was "ADDED" 430 years later. And the Biblical Truth that he was Justified to be sure, but not by these "works of the Law".

But had he not trusted the Christ enough to deny himself and Follow Him as instructed, which is the Christ's definition of Faith, then he would have been just like all the other "Children of Disobedience". He was considered a Faithful servant "Because" he obeyed of His own free will.

Shall we just ignore these truths? Refuse to even discuss them for fear His Light might expose some Leaven in us?










 



Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #77 on: Thu Oct 31, 2019 - 18:09:56 »
Michael, I would like to say a few things about this after Jarrod is first given a chance to answer your post to him.
I'm not planning to respond.  His position is basically mainstream, and it would take the thread far off-topic.  I hold a minority opinion here, and I don't need to convert everyone to it.

Jarrod

Offline RB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #78 on: Fri Nov 01, 2019 - 05:09:39 »
I fully expect that you will work to silence me, probably report me, as I ask these difficult questions and post your statements with scriptures which bring much of them into question.
I will answer this later~concerning reporting you, I have never reported the first person and never will. The moderators can read all posts for themselves and can do their job without me aiding them~that's their job, and I do not need a mother to tell my problems to, I can handle all matters my self.

Also, I do not believe that you have a question that's too difficult for me to handle, bring what you will, as long as you are more rational in your thinking.

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #78 on: Fri Nov 01, 2019 - 05:09:39 »

Offline RB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #79 on: Mon Nov 04, 2019 - 06:31:39 »
Quote from:  GB on Fri Oct 25, 2019 - 13:21:37
Gal. 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This verse is used by many to teach that obedience to God is not a requirement for Salvation. This is one of the foundation blocks of most mainstream religions.

Since I have learned the scriptures outside the influence of modern religions, I see the scriptures differently and would like to have a discussion about this verse. I would like to ask some questions and post some scriptures. I am not trying to promote any religion, rather, to have an honest discussions about what the Bible says.
My post is not directed toward GB, but toward all who may desire to have an honest discussion concerning Justification by Christ alone, not so much as justification by faith alone as the godly Reformers viewed this subject, which I'm convinced that they desired to honour Christ, yet were still in some errors having not been too far removed from the great whore of Mystery Babylon~and many of them just created some lessor impure doctrines of Christ's atonement for sin by himself without the works of man being involved. So, we shall consider Galatians 2:16~looking at Justification by CHRIST ALONE without the deeds/works of the law, including our faith. I'm indebted to men who went before us namely Samuel Richardson and John Brine both particular Baptist from 1600-1700's hundred.


                                                                                        Justification By Christ Alone

Quote from: Paul
Romans 3:22-24~"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
These are Paul's word describing the gospel of the grace of God and how one is made the righteousness of God. It is by the faith of Christ that God can FREELY justify sinners by his grace and still be Just in doing so.
Quote from: John
Revelation 1:5~"Unto Him that hath loved us, and washed away our sins in His own blood."

In these words we are to consider: The persons whose sins Christ washed away, and they were all those who were given to Christ, John 17:29. Who is He that washed their sins away, and that is, the Lord Jesus Christ, verse 5. How and by what means He washed them away, and that was with His blood. It is ascribed to His blood, because, “Without blood there is no remission,” Hebrews. 9:22.

Did Christ’s blood, as blood, simply so considered, effect this work? We considered this above already. No, there is something else included in it. As appears,
Quote from: The HOLY GHOST
Hebrews 9:14~ “The blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit, offered himself without spot to God,”
Hebrews 9:14. The Word was God, and the Word was made flesh, in the person of Jesus Christ. 

The Work of Christ In his flesh~Christ, Who is God, by taking flesh, united the Elect by His flesh to Himself, and so they became one with God as God and Christ are one, (See John 17:22, 23. ) So that the flesh of Christ, which was the life and substance of all, (in an unspeakable manner) became one with the perfection of the Divine and Infinite Being, which lay hid under
Quote
Hebrews 10:20~“This veil that is to say His flesh,”
By the power of his Divine nature Christ made the atonement In his human nature~ So that by the power of His Divine Nature, He might make satisfaction in and by the human. By reason of this union there was an infinite value and worth in Christ’s blood. Therefore, it is called,
Quote from: Peter
1st Peter 1:19 in part~“The precious blood of Christ,”
Yea the blood of God~Acts 20:28 So that we may not know Christ simply after the flesh, but in the flesh and in the Spirit together, 2nd Corinthians 5:16.

The time when He washed their sins away, which was then when He shed His blood and rose again from the dead. For in His blood (his death) they were "legally" washed away. The shedding of Christ’s blood (his death and resurrection) and their sins went away together legally before God.

The "ground and cause" why He took their sins away was His love which was in Himself, and not ONE thing in us or done by us could move Him to die for us.

The sum of this and the sum of the gospel~The sum of all is, that Jesus Christ, by once offering the sacrifice of himself when He died upon the cross and was buried and rose again, took away, put to an end, blotted out and utterly destroyed all the sins of His people for ever, and presented them just, righteous and holy, without spot, before God.

This will appear to be true when we consider these several reasons which are proved by plain Scriptures to any unbias person, or least should.

Reason #1~Because that was the time in which Christ was to do this work. 
Quote
Daniel 9:24-27~"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
Which time was at an end when Christ died. Therefore, it is said....The year of my Redeemed is come...Isaiah 63:4. Yea, “the hour is come” saith Christ....John 17:1.

2. ~Because, Christ was ordained of God to take away sins and to present us holy...
Quote from: Peter
1st Peter. 1:19, 20~"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Again: 
Quote from: Paul
2nd Corinthians 5:21~“For he hath made him to be sin for us that knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him:“
Again:
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 1:30~"But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:"

3.~Because Christ was mighty to save. Therefore, He did do this work Himself alone:
Quote from: Isaiah
Isaiah 63~"Who is this that cometh from Edom with dyed garments from Bozrah? that is glorious in his apparel, traveling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. I have trodden the wine-press alone, and of the people there was none with me: I looked, and there was none to help; therefore my own arm brought salvation unto me,”
So that Christ did all this work alone, for none else could help.
Quote from: David
Psalms 89:19~ “Then thou spakest in a vision to thy holy One, and said, I have laid help upon one that is mighty,”
ALL others were WITHOUT strenght~See Romans 5:6.

4.~Because Christ took flesh on purpose to effect this work:
Quote
Hebrews 10:5~“Wherefore when he came into the world, he said; Sacrifice and offerings thou wouldst not; but a body thou hast prepared for me? in burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hadst no pleasure,"

5. ~Because it was the will of God that Christ should, by the shedding of His blood, sanctify His, “by the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus once for all,” Read Hebrews 10-5-10.

6.~Because Jesus Christ came into this world for 'ONE" purpose, that is, to take away our sins, etc. “Then said I, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God,“ “He was manifested to take away our sins, and in him is no sin,” 1st John 3:5. Once in the end of the world hath he appeared to take away sin by the sacrifice of himself.Read and consider: Hebrews 9:12, 25, 26, 28.

7. ~Because Jesus Christ was made a “curse for us,” and suffered all the punishment due to us for sin: “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us,” Galatians 3:13. “Surely he hath born our griefs, and carried our sorrows: we did esteem him stricken, and smitten of God, and afflicted. He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him: the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He bare the sins of many, and made intercession for the transgressors,” Read Isaiah 53.

8.~Because the Scriptures say He has obtained eternal redemption for us: “Having obtained eternal redemption” for us, Hebrews 9. “In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins,” Colossians 1:7; 1:14. “Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world,” John 1:29. And that he has healed us, “By whose stripes we are healed,”.  “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body, by whose stripes we are healed,” 1st Peter 2:24.

9.~Because it was the promise of God that His work should prosper, and that He should justify many by bearing their sins: “When thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. I have put my Spirit upon him, he shall bring forth judgments to the Gentiles. He shall not fail, nor be discouraged, till he hath set judgments on the earth:” Isaiah 42:1-4, etc. See also Isaiah 55:11. “My righteous servant shall justify many: for he shall bear their iniquity,” . Were these promises fulfilled concerning Christ, or no? Surely yea. Then He has justified His own people.

10.~Because else Christ had not answered the types under the Law.

Adam was a type of Christ, who was a public person as Christ was. As truly the first Adam, by one act, made all that were in him sinners, which was true enough; so really and truly did Christ, the second Adam, by His own act, viz. the sacrifice of Himself, He make all that were in Him, righteous. That this is as true see Romans 5:12-19 and “as by one man we were made sinners, so by the obedience of one many are made righteous.” As by the first Adam condemnation came, so by the righteousness of one came upon all unto justification of life.

Later we shall add more to this list. RB
« Last Edit: Mon Nov 04, 2019 - 14:01:45 by RB »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #80 on: Mon Nov 04, 2019 - 19:04:11 »
There are works of law, and we are not justified by them. Then there are works of faith. We are justified by them.

(James 2:20)  But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
(James 2:21)  Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
(James 2:22)  You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
(James 2:23)  and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
(James 2:24)  You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Offline NorrinRadd

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #81 on: Tue Nov 05, 2019 - 00:34:54 »
There are works of law, and we are not justified by them. Then there are works of faith. We are justified by them.

(James 2:20)  But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
(James 2:21)  Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
(James 2:22)  You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
(James 2:23)  and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
(James 2:24)  You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


2:18 says that works "show" our faith.  So which is it?  Do they *demonstrate* our faith, or actually *make* us righteous (justified)?

In the context of James 2, what kinds of "works" is he advocating?

Offline RB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #82 on: Tue Nov 05, 2019 - 03:11:37 »
There are works of law, and we are not justified by them. Then there are works of faith. We are justified by them.
True~nevertheless, only in a practical sense is this true; it is also true that legally no flesh is justified by the law of God, for ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God~or, in simple biblical term~lived a sinless life, in thought, word and deed. Practically the fruits of the Spirit proves that we have been justified FREELY by grace through Jesus Christ's perfect obedience who did NOT come short of the glory of God, but proved that he was INDEED the Son of God by the spirit of perfect obedience.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 1:4~"And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:"
All of God's children said amen, and amen.... glory be to God for his unspeakable gift of providing a perfect lamb for the sacrifice of our sins, because of his great love for us, according to his will to love us freely. Selah.

Offline RB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #83 on: Tue Nov 05, 2019 - 03:33:10 »
In the context of James 2, what kinds of "works" is he advocating?
There are only works done by the indewlling Spirit that God can only be pleased with.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 5:13-25~"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."
Added to this is:
Quote from: Paul
Romans 8:4-14~"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
The greatest of the fruits of the Spirit is CHARITY=LOVE, which is the SUM of the fruits of ALL righteousness pleasing to God, but ONLY a regenerate child of God can have true biblical charity in all of their works before God.
Quote from: NorrinRadd on: Today at 00:34:54
In the context of James 2, what kinds of "works" is he advocating?
Love toward our neighbors which is the fruit of the indwelling Spirit of God, which only those possessing the Spirit of God can do pleasing to God from the new man in us secured by Christ's perfect obedience for us. 
« Last Edit: Tue Nov 05, 2019 - 03:36:15 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #84 on: Tue Nov 05, 2019 - 04:25:14 »
Quote from: GB on Fri Oct 25, 2019 - 13:21:37
Gal. 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This verse is used by many to teach that obedience to God is not a requirement for Salvation. This is one of the foundation blocks of most mainstream religions.

Since I have learned the scriptures outside the influence of modern religions, I see the scriptures differently and would like to have a discussion about this verse. I would like to ask some questions and post some scriptures. I am not trying to promote any religion, rather, to have an honest discussions about what the Bible says.

                                                                                                              Justification By Christ Alone


The Priest was a type of Christ, who is said to "make atonement for you, to cleanse you from all your sins before the Lord,"~ Leviticus 16:30. Christ, by His death, did present all His people to God without spot, or blemish, or wrinkle, Ephesians 5:25-27. "In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy, and unreproveable in his sight,"~Colossians 1:22. So then we see that they are free from all sin, and the condemnation of those sins, if the Scripture says the truth, as it does.

The live goat was a type of Christ, upon whose "head all the transgressions of the children were laid, who did bear them, and carry them away into a land not inhabited in the wilderness,"~Leviticus 16:21, 22. "Which were shadows of things to come, but the body is Christ,"~ Romans 7:1-4; Colossians 2:17; etc.

11.~Because Christ did exceed all the Priests and sacrifices under the Law. For "they could not make the comers thereunto perfect." But Christ, the substance of those sacrifices, has made His perfect. If those sacrifices could have purged them, as Christ has purged us, they should have no more conscience of sin~ than we have, that is, none at all, because we are for ever fully and freely set free, being perfected: See and rejoice Hebrews 10:10, 11, 12, 14. The priest under the law” made many offerings, and yet by all their offerings they could never take away one sin: but Christ, by one offering, has taken away all their sins for ever. The Priests stood daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifice which could never take away sin, but this man after he had offered one sacrifice, for ever sat down at the right hand of God,~Hebrews 9:9-15. Oh what a difference is there betwixt them! Christ has wonderfully exceeded them. Therefore, this Priest and this offering are more glorious and happy. Yea, and all the elect are made happy by this perfect, effectual, glorious offering, Read Hebrews 10.

12.~ Because there needs to be no more offerings for sin. Therefore, sin is quite gone and remitted. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin: Hebrews 10:17, 18, because there needs to be none. For this offering of Christ is sufficient.

13.~ Because there can be no more required to be done to make us just and righteous than Christ has done for us. He has done all that He was required to do to take away sin. Therefore, He has done it. “esus knowing that all things were accomplished, that the Scriptures might be fulfilled,~ John 19:28, 30; 2nd Corinthians 5:21.

The ascension of Christ is proof of His finished work~ Because if Christ had not fully accomplished what He came to do, viz. to make us just and righteous, He would not have ascended into heaven as He did: This man after he had offered one sacrifice, sat down at the right hand of God,~ Hebrews. 9 and 10:12. IF he can rest, SO can we!

The elect are justified by His blood~because the Scripture says, We are justified by his blood~ Romans 5:9; Isaiah 45:25 and 53:11; Romans 5:19. Which could not be true, if He had not taken away and destroyed all our sins, and presented us to God without spot, and made peace by the blood of his Cross, now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy, and unblameable, and unreprovable in his sight~See Colossians 1:20-22. For this end Christ gave himself for his Church, that he might present it to himself a glorious Church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing, but that it might be holy without blemish~ Ephesians 5. Therefore, the Scriptures say, all our sins are removed, cast behind His back: Thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back~ Isaiah 38:17. As far as the East is from the West, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us....Psalms 103:12. This is something, but this is not all, they are covered: Whose sin is covered~ Psalms 32:1. Yet the soul is not satisfied, because a thing may have a being that is covered; therefore God says they are blotted out~I have blotted out as a thick cloud thy transgressions, and as a cloud thy sin.....Isaiah 44:22. This is more, for now they are not, they have no being. But God can remember that which is not, this is answered, for God says~I will not remember thy sins....Isaiah 43:25. I will remember their sins no more: See Jeremiah 31:34. I trust we all are satisfied with God's clear testimony concerning these truths.

The holy and spotless Elect~Because the elect are holy and without spot. Therefore, Christ says of His, Thou art all fair, my love, there is no spot in thee~ Song of Solomon 4:7.....My love, my fair one Song of Solomon 2:10.  The Spirit said: They are without fault before the throne of God~ Revelation 14:5. Now, this could not have been, if Christ had not in the body of His flesh, through death, made them so holy, and presented them so to God....Again~Colossians 1:21,23; Ephesians 5.


Offline RB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #85 on: Tue Nov 05, 2019 - 05:06:38 »
Quote from: GB on Fri Oct 25, 2019 - 13:21:37
Gal. 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This verse is used by many to teach that obedience to God is not a requirement for Salvation. This is one of the foundation blocks of most mainstream religions.

Since I have learned the scriptures outside the influence of modern religions, I see the scriptures differently and would like to have a discussion about this verse. I would like to ask some questions and post some scriptures. I am not trying to promote any religion, rather, to have an honest discussions about what the Bible says.

                                                                                                Justification By Christ Alone


17. Christ Says The Saints Are Without Sin~ Because Christ says that we are without sin. We may have boldness in the day of judgment, because as he is, so are we in this world~ 1st John 4:17. How is Christ, I pray, sure He is without sin, for so say the Scriptures: In him is no sin~1st John 3:5; Hebrews 9:28. Thus we are now, as we are in Christ in respect of His righteousness, which is ours though it be in Him. I say this, our perfection and happiness, is in respect of our justification, and as we are in Christ. For, as we are in our selves simply so considered, though we were never out of Christ, in our bodies in the flesh, we are not capable of so great a perfection in this life. For the Apostle says~If any man saith he hath no sin, he is a liar, and deceives himself... 1st John 1:8,9. But those Scriptures are all true. Therefore, we are all fair, without fault and spot. We are so as we are in Christ. So, we were made all this by God's election of grace. And seeing it must be true also that we have sin, and do sin, that is, as we are in our flesh in our bodies, and seeing we are so notwithstanding conversion and faith, therefore, our believing, etc., has not made us so perfect. Therefore, Christ by his life of faith and obwdience, made us so, and so presented us to God, Colossians 1:20, 22 that we have considered several times already.


18. Christ Alone did all that was needed~Because Christ did all that was needful to be done to make us perfect, and present us holy. For what can be more required to the justification of a sinner before God than to be free from all sin? Is not he that is no sinner a righteous person? Must not he that is free from all sin, of necessity, appear just to Him that knows he is so as God does? It is all one to be free from sin and to be perfectly righteous. 1st Corinthians 5:21; 1st John 1:7. There is no medium betwixt them: By his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many: for he shall bear their iniquities~said Isaiah....So that His bearing their iniquity was that which did justify them; and by His knowledge of God's perfect will viz. whom He justified, Isaiah 53:11.


19. Christ did This work upon the cross~Christ, upon the cross, did this work for us, because the Scripture says, He hath washed away our sins in his own blood, Revelation 5:1. Therefore, they are done away. To say that they are not done away is to contradict God in His Word. It is very dishonorable to Jesus Christ that He should be manifested to take away our sins~ 1st John 3:5, that Christ should come to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, etc., Daniel. 9:24; 2nd Corinthians 5:21, and yet this work is still to do. What is this but to say, Christ came not to do it, or if He came to do it, He did not do it. For He did it not, if it be still to do.


20. A finished work~Because Christ says this work is finished, therefore it is so. For He is the faithful and true witness. Therefore, we may believe it and affirm it is done. “These words spake Jesus, I have glorified thee on earth: I have finished the work thou gavest me to do. Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished (that the Scripture might be fulfilled) saith, I thirst. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost, John 19:28, 30 and 17:1-5. The work God gave Christ to do was the work of our salvation, which consisted in taking and destroying our sins, and presenting us holy, without spot to God. This He did by being made sin for us, this so we might be made (by his being made sin for us) the righteousness of God in him~ 2nd Corinthians 5:21.

The Sum And Substance of Christ Dying For Us~Therefore, if when Christ died was the time this was to be done, and if Christ was ordained to do it, if Christ was mighty to save, if Christ took flesh to do this work, if it was the will of God that he should do it, if Christ came on purpose to do it, if our sins were laid upon Christ and He suffered the punishment the curse of them, if He has redeemed us, if it was prophesied of Him that He should justify many and that His work should prosper, if Christ did answer His types, if He has exceeded all the Priests and sacrifices under the Law; if there needs no more offerings for sin; if Christ has done all the Law required, if Christ has done what He came to do, if we are justified by His blood, if He has made us holy, and presented us without spot, if we are free from all sin, if Christ has done all that can be done to make us just and righteous, if Christ did wash away our sins in His own blood, if Christ has said, “It is finished;” then it’s done, it’s done, it’s done, perfectly and completely done. Then what I have said is fully proved namely, that Jesus Christ, by once offering, the sacrifice of Himself, when He was on the Cross, put an end to sin and so destroyed all the sins of His people for ever and presented them just, righteous, and holy, without spot, etc. before God!


Here is a fountain of consolation~Oh, what a fountain of consolation here! What marrow and fatness is here. What sweetness if like to this, to all who believe? Who now may say, once sin was mine, then it was laid upon Christ and now they are neither mine nor His because they are not at all: For by His blood He washed them all away; and now they are all gone, blotted out, and shall be remembered no more, no more, no more. Now Christ’s righteousness is mine, as well as His, for I was made the righteousness of God in him~2nd Corinthians 5:21. And I did nothing at all to procure these things to me.

The appearance of free grace~In this appears free grace. Here is Christ, and Christ alone, and nothing but Christ. All things else pass away, because they are under the Sun~ Eccl. 1:2. They are full of mutation and change. Faith may be obscured and the soul greatly deserted, so as to see no light, Isaiah 50:11, yet when at the worst, they need not be comfortless, John 14:18, for still God is their God, and their lives are hid with Christ in God, Colossians 3:3~Who is the same today, yesterday, and for ever....Hebrews 13:5. We change often, but he never changeth~Malachi 3:6. In this is our happiness, comfort, and glory. Even then when we cannot apprehend Him, yet were we in Him, Ephesians 1:4. So we are, and ever shall be in Him and one with Him, and are comprehended of Him: 1st John 5:20. Because I live,”saith Christ, ye shall live also....John 14:19. What doctrine in religion is more sweet and comfortable, more necessary or profitable, yea, or more honorable to the Lord Jesus Christ? This is that which holds forth the love of God, that sets the Crown upon His head, and will not give His glory to another, Isaiah 42:8; Jeremiah 4:2. This will have Christ to be our life....Colossians  3:4; peace, Ephesians  1:14; glory, Isaiah 45:25. This is that which thrusts us out of our selves, our life, our righteousness, Romans 10:3; Titus 3:5, to His, to live in Him, and caused us to say, O Lord thou art our righteousness~Ezra 9:15, The Lord our righteousness~ which life is most sweet and serviceable because this is sure, and more spiritual. In a word, this makes Christ all in all, Colossians 3:11, and exalts Him above all, which is His place, Psalms 89:19.

The life of our souls is Christ in us~Surely that which is the life of our souls, upon which the eternal happiness of our souls depends, is not in any thing in us, but is Christ in him  It lies in Him, so that it may be kept safe for us. So that we might not live upon any thing within us, faith is given that by it we may live out of our selves in another, even the Lord Jesus where our life is.

Why life and happiness is not infused in us~Surely if our life and happiness had been infused in us, we should have lived in our selves and not upon God. Adam had his life in him and he lost it. Therefore, it’s better for us that our life is hid in Christ in God.

This doctrine comforts God’s people~This is comfortable indeed. God says: Comfort ye my people, speak comfortably unto her, tell her that her warfare is accomplished, and her iniquity is pardoned,” etc..

This doctrine is good news from heaven~This is good news from heaven indeed. This great work is finished. It is not now to do, neither for faith nor thee. Oh see that ye add not, nor detract from it. If thou be Christ’s, it’s thine. Apply it, take comfort in it. Admire God’s love and His free grace. Give God all the glory of it. Give none of it to faith nor to anything else. Rejoice in God and thy union with Him. Witness to His truth and suffer for Him. Serve, love, live, and die with Him and His.
« Last Edit: Tue Nov 05, 2019 - 05:08:48 by RB »

Offline GB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #86 on: Tue Nov 05, 2019 - 06:04:52 »
My post is not directed toward GB, but toward all who may desire to have an honest discussion concerning Justification by Christ alone, not so much as justification by faith alone as the godly Reformers viewed this subject, which I'm convinced that they desired to honour Christ, yet were still in some errors having not been too far removed from the great whore of Mystery Babylon~and many of them just created some lessor impure doctrines of Christ's atonement for sin by himself without the works of man being involved. So, we shall consider Galatians 2:16~looking at Justification by CHRIST ALONE without the deeds/works of the law, including our faith. I'm indebted to men who went before us namely Samuel Richardson and John Brine both particular Baptist from 1600-1700's hundred. 

First, if you want to promote Richardson and Brine's ancient religious beliefs, you should start your own thread.

Secondly, there is no Spirit that can Justify man other than the Spirit of Christ. This thread doesn't imply, suggest, otherwise. I asked for an honest discussion of what Paul was speaking to in Gal when he referenced the Jews trying to convert the Galatians to do "works of the Law" for justification.

Modern religious traditions regarding Paul's words here imply that the Pharisees were going around behind Paul and telling the Galatians that to be justified they had to Love God, and Love their Neighbor, both Laws God gave to Moses, that the entire Law and Prophets hang on.

And that Paul was coming back to the Galatians and telling them they are not required to obey any of God's Instructions in order to be justified.

Of course this doctrine can't be supported by scriptures, and certainly not by Paul's words, because first off the Pharisees didn't obey God and didn't teach God's Commandments. Jesus said, and I believe Him, that the Pharisees were preaching to doctrines the commandments of man, not God.

And Jesus Himself told the one person that asked Him how to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matt. 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

And Paul's own word's.

Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.[/u]

And Jesus again;

Mark. 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

So there is no question that we are justified by the Lord's Christ alone. There is no other way, no other voice to listen to, no other instructions to follow, no other commands to obey.

And there is also no question that the Pharisees did not listen to the Christ, before or after He came to earth as a man. So the popular religious doctrine that the Jews were trying to get the Galatians to follow God's Laws is simply a man made religious doctrine. The bible doesn't support it. At least, I can't find the support for such a teaching, therefore I posted this thread to either have someone show the support, or expose this religious doctrine as from men and not from God.

So what were the "works of the Law" then if it was not Love God and Love your neighbor and all that hangs on them?

Paul said the "works of the Law" he is speaking to in Galatians was "ADDED" 430 years after Abraham obeyed God's Laws and Commandments and was blessed for it. And that this "ADDED" Law was only to be in effect "till the Seed should come".

Well if a person studied the OT they would find that God gave a Priesthood Law to the Tribe of Levi. And it was a Law which shadowed the sacrifice and Grace that the Christ bestows on the faithful. It consisted of sacrificial "works of the Law" which included shedding the blood of animals for the atonement of the sins of the people. Of course, when the Lamb of God came, it was not necessary to perform these "works of the Law" for atonement, because Jesus, the Lamb of God, shed His Blood as prophesied once and for all. This law was to "lead them to the Christ" and when they found Him, it was no longer necessary to perform these "works of the law".

But the Pharisees didn't believe Jesus was the Lamb of God, so they continued to perform these "works" for atonement and justification even after Jesus fulfilled the prophesied "sacrificial lamb".

So it seems the Pharisees were going around after Paul and telling the Galatians they couldn't be justified unless they brought a turtle dove or other animal to the Levite Priest, who would then perform their version of the "works of the Law" for remission of sins.

I think the teaching that the Jews were trying to teach the Galatians to follow God's Laws is an insidious deception that has snared "many". This is why I have opened this thread up for discussion. But so far most just want to promote their religion. I was hoping for a discussion of the actual Word's of God.













Offline GB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #87 on: Tue Nov 05, 2019 - 06:38:22 »
There are works of law, and we are not justified by them. Then there are works of faith. We are justified by them.

(James 2:20)  But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
(James 2:21)  Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
(James 2:22)  You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
(James 2:23)  and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
(James 2:24)  You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

So then this begs the question "what works"? Can a person, or group of religious persons, create Holy Works? If I am to Have Faith in God, then isn't this Faith shown when I deny my own mind and trust His Word? If a person studies the examples of Faith the Christ gave us in Heb. 11, we would see that every one of these people "Denied themselves" and trusted in God to direct their footsteps.

 As Paul teaches.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of (mans) works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

But what if I don't want to "walk in the work's before ordained by God"? What if I believe my religion has better "works"? Well Christ addresses this as well.

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Lawlessness)

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

If a man hears God's Definition of "good" and doesn't "DO" or walk in them, to him it is sin.

This same Christ says the same thing before coming to earth as a man.

Jer. 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.

This is why I posted this thread. It is crucial that we understand what "works of the law" Paul is speaking to here. We know the deceiver is out there trying to turn us away for the true God, and we know it uses religion and some of God's Words to do it.

So let's just ignore religious traditions for a time, and really look into what Paul is saying about the Pharisees, who murdered servants of God, and the Christ Himself, who Jesus said were the devil's children. Were they really trying to convince the Galatians to obey God's Laws? Or their own version of a Priesthood which God took away from them and gave to His Son?








Offline 4WD

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #88 on: Tue Nov 05, 2019 - 07:02:46 »
When one is convinced that the earth is flat and refuses all attempts to correct that absurd thinking, then all efforts to rationally discuss even the rudimentary aspects of cosmology is absolutely futile.

That is the situation here on several levels.

Offline GB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #89 on: Tue Nov 05, 2019 - 07:14:38 »

2:18 says that works "show" our faith.  So which is it?  Do they *demonstrate* our faith, or actually *make* us righteous (justified)?

In the context of James 2, what kinds of "works" is he advocating?

Isn't true Faith Righteousness? Who receives the Free Gift of Grace? Everyone? Or those who have Faith in Christ?

James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.

10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and (THEN) he shall lift you up.


Remember what is written.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Isn't this the same thing Jesus said to "DO"?

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Isn't this the same thing this same Christ said to Abram?

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, (Deny yourself) unto a land that I will shew thee: (Follow Me)

And what was Abram's answer?

4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;

Wasn't this "work" attributed to Abram as Righteousness, and didn't this work also bring to life his Faith in God? So then he was "justified" because he was a "doer" of God's Laws, not a hearer only as Paul says in Romans 2.

Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law (Like Abraham)shall be justified.

So this brings us to this thread. How is it then, that Paul is now teaching the Galatians that they are "Not Justified" by being a doer of God's Laws?

I don't think he is teaching contrary to his own words, or James, or the Christ at all. I think he is referring to the Jews who were still desperately holding on to their version of a Priesthood that God took away from them and gave to someone more deserving.


Offline GB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #90 on: Tue Nov 05, 2019 - 07:22:59 »
When one is convinced that the earth is flat and refuses all attempts to correct that absurd thinking, then all efforts to rationally discuss even the rudimentary aspects of cosmology is absolutely futile.

That is the situation here on several levels.

Yes, that is a good analogy. The Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time had created their own religion in the name of God and they were convinced, as it were, that they were the true "children of Abraham". And no matter what God's own Word's said, no matter what God Himself did, it didn't matter. There are just some religious zealots out there who will not give up their ancient religious traditions no matter what. They won't even discuss all the evidence against it.

Good analogy.





Offline 4WD

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #91 on: Tue Nov 05, 2019 - 07:26:41 »
Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law (Like Abraham)shall be justified.

So this brings us to this thread. How is it then, that Paul is now teaching the Galatians that they are "Not Justified" by being a doer of God's Laws?

I don't think he is teaching contrary to his own words, or James, or the Christ at all. I think he is referring to the Jews who were still desperately holding on to their version of a Priesthood that God took away from them and gave to someone more deserving.

Jas 2:10  For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.


In order to be a "doer" of the law one must keep the whole law and fail in not one single point.  There are none such except Jesus Christ Himself.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #92 on: Tue Nov 05, 2019 - 07:34:05 »
Yes, that is a good analogy.
Thank you.  But I had you, among others, in mind.  Your view of "works of law" is analogous to the view of the flat earthers;  it is simply not true and it would seem that there is absolutely nothing that could convince you otherwise.  Therefore further discussion of anything concerning works or not works is absolutely futile.  That is another of your views that has no agreement in the whole of Christendom.

Offline GB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #93 on: Tue Nov 05, 2019 - 07:38:44 »
Jas 2:10  For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.


In order to be a "doer" of the law one must keep the whole law and fail in not one single point.  There are none such except Jesus Christ Himself.

Well that is scripturally untrue. It is written that Noah, Abel, Abraham, Caleb, Zechariahs, Simeon, the wise Men, Anna, were all considered "obedient" by God, the only one that matters. They were not "obedient" from a child as Jesus was, but they denied themselves and followed Him. That is hard for religious men to believe that have been convinced that God's Laws are impossible to follow, unfair, unjust etc.

I think the point James is making is that if you don't kill people, but you scam them for money, or lust after their wives, you are guilty as if you broke them all.

It's the same in our civilized world. A child rapist that feeds the poor or doesn't steal is still guilty.



 

Offline 4WD

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #94 on: Tue Nov 05, 2019 - 07:44:54 »
Well that is scripturally untrue. It is written that Noah, Abel, Abraham, Caleb, Zechariahs, Simeon, the wise Men, Anna, were all considered "obedient" by God, the only one that matters. They were not "obedient" from a child as Jesus was, but they denied themselves and followed Him. That is hard for religious men to believe that have been convinced that God's Laws are impossible to follow, unfair, unjust etc.

I think the point James is making is that if you don't kill people, but you scam them for money, or lust after their wives, you are guilty as if you broke them all.

It's the same in our civilized world. A child rapist that feeds the poor or doesn't steal is still guilty.

You prove my analogy over and over again.  You are a "flat earther" of the Scriptures.

Offline GB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #95 on: Tue Nov 05, 2019 - 07:54:35 »
Thank you.  But I had you, among others, in mind.  Your view of "works of law" is analogous to the view of the flat earthers;  it is simply not true and it would seem that there is absolutely nothing that could convince you otherwise.  Therefore further discussion of anything concerning works or not works is absolutely futile.  That is another of your views that has no agreement in the whole of Christendom.

It is true that nothing "you can say" or nothing "your religion preaches" will persuade me to omit, reject or ignore the Bibles teachings. I have been warned over and over about the teaching of religious men.

Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

So in all fairness I asked for a discussion of scriptures not your religious doctrines. And you provide nothing more than your own word's which, no offence, I don't necessarily believe enough to risk my life following them.

I think the preaching that the Pharisees were trying to teach the Galatians to Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself for justification is a deception. I made the Biblical case against this teaching. If you have something more than your own word's to add, please do.









Offline 4WD

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #96 on: Tue Nov 05, 2019 - 07:56:10 »
I have been warned over and over about the teaching of religious men.
And you are one of them.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #97 on: Tue Nov 05, 2019 - 08:16:19 »
Quote from: 4WD
Jas 2:10  For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.


In order to be a "doer" of the law one must keep the whole law and fail in not one single point.  There are none such except Jesus Christ Himself.
Well that is scripturally untrue. It is written that Noah, Abel, Abraham, Caleb, Zechariahs, Simeon, the wise Men, Anna, were all considered "obedient" by God, the only one that matters. They were not "obedient" from a child as Jesus was, but they denied themselves and followed Him. That is hard for religious men to believe that have been convinced that God's Laws are impossible to follow, unfair, unjust etc.

I think the point James is making is that if you don't kill people, but you scam them for money, or lust after their wives, you are guilty as if you broke them all.

It's the same in our civilized world. A child rapist that feeds the poor or doesn't steal is still guilty.

Scripturally untrue? Who are you? Who do you claim to be?

Here's a question for you in relation to that: Are you saying that Noah, Abel, Abraham, Caleb, Zechariahs, Simeon, the wise Men, Anna were not guilty of any transgression or sin?

I'm sorry to say this, but you are most deceived that you can say and actually said that what 4WD said there is scripturally untrue.

 
« Last Edit: Tue Nov 05, 2019 - 08:19:55 by Michael2012 »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #98 on: Tue Nov 05, 2019 - 08:33:25 »
I asked for an honest discussion of what Paul was speaking to in Gal when he referenced the Jews trying to convert the Galatians to do "works of the Law" for justification.

Then be honest. Let's start off with Galatians, the passage which mentions "works of the law.

Gal. 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Let's first settle who are the "We" in verse 15.

In my reading, the "We" refers to no other but to Paul, to Peter and the Jewish Christians with them, to whom Paul was saying what he says in verses 14-16. In the general sense, that will go to refer to all Jewish Christians.

How about you?

Offline GB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #99 on: Tue Nov 05, 2019 - 08:45:15 »
Well that is scripturally untrue. It is written that Noah, Abel, Abraham, Caleb, Zechariahs, Simeon, the wise Men, Anna, were all considered "obedient" by God, the only one that matters. They were not "obedient" from a child as Jesus was, but they denied themselves and followed Him. That is hard for religious men to believe that have been convinced that God's Laws are impossible to follow, unfair, unjust etc.

I think the point James is making is that if you don't kill people, but you scam them for money, or lust after their wives, you are guilty as if you broke them all.

It's the same in our civilized world. A child rapist that feeds the poor or doesn't steal is still guilty.

Scripturally untrue? Who are you? Who do you claim to be?

Here's a question for you in relation to that: Are you saying that Noah, Abel, Abraham, Caleb, Zechariahs, Simeon, the wise Men, Anna were not guilty of any transgression or sin?

I'm sorry to say this, but you are most deceived that you can say and actually said that what 4WD said there is scripturally untrue.

I see, so this is how a self righteous "Christian" goes about judging folks these day. You ask a question as if your judgment depends on the answer, then you make the judgment before I answer. I swear, you can't make this crap up.

Here is a little advice from a nobody like me. Before you spew your intellectually dishonest vomit on others, maybe you should actually read their post.

"It is written that Noah, Abel, Abraham, Caleb, Zechariahs, Simeon, the wise Men, Anna, were all considered "obedient" by God, the only one that matters. They were not "obedient" from a child as Jesus was, but they denied themselves and followed Him."

So what part of this sentence is a deception?

In Contrast 4WD preaches this.

Quote
"In order to be a "doer" of the law one must keep the whole law and fail in not one single point."

Yet God Himself, not me, or some "great Theologian" 4WD learns from, but God Himself said:

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Did he keep the whole Law his whole life and not fail in one point? Of course not. I said as much in the post you are judging. But God still said he obeyed His Laws and Commandments, God still considered him, Caleb, Noah, Abel, Zechariahs, Simeon, Anna, and the entire list of examples in the Faith Chapter as "obedient".

So 4WD statement "In order to be a "doer" of the law one must keep the whole law and fail in not one single point". Is not Scripturally accurate.

Like so many thing you and him teach, it is a religious doctrine of the land, not from God.














Offline Michael2012

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #100 on: Tue Nov 05, 2019 - 08:56:23 »
I see, so this is how a self righteous "Christian" goes about judging folks these day. You ask a question as if your judgment depends on the answer, then you make the judgment before I answer. I swear, you can't make this crap up.

Here is a little advice from a nobody like me. Before you spew your intellectually dishonest vomit on others, maybe you should actually read their post.

"It is written that Noah, Abel, Abraham, Caleb, Zechariahs, Simeon, the wise Men, Anna, were all considered "obedient" by God, the only one that matters. They were not "obedient" from a child as Jesus was, but they denied themselves and followed Him."

So what part of this sentence is a deception?

What are you asking there? Are you really a natural straw man maker? Who had accused that there was a deception in that sentence?   

Quote
In Contrast 4WD preaches this.

Yet God Himself, not me, or some "great Theologian" 4WD learns from, but God Himself said:

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Did he keep the whole Law his whole life and not fail in one point? Of course not. I said as much in the post you are judging. But God still said he obeyed His Laws and Commandments, God still considered him, Caleb, Noah, Abel, Zechariahs, Simeon, Anna, and the entire list of examples in the Faith Chapter as "obedient".

So 4WD statement "In order to be a "doer" of the law one must keep the whole law and fail in not one single point". Is not Scripturally accurate.

Like so many thing you and him teach, it is a religious doctrine of the land, not from God.

So now, you are changing your tone. Before, you said "Well that is scripturally untrue." Now you say "Is not Scripturally accurate."

May I ask, do you even believe this scriptures which 4WD cited?

Jas 2:10  For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #101 on: Tue Nov 05, 2019 - 08:59:38 »
Yet God Himself, not me, or some "great Theologian" 4WD learns from, but God Himself said:

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
And what does God say was the result of that?

 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with you and will bless you, for to you and to your offspring I will give all these lands, and I will establish the oath that I swore to Abraham your father.  I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and will give to your offspring all these lands. And in your offspring all the nations of the earth shall be blessed..... WHY? ....because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Nothing there is about Paul's discussion about and distinction between salvation by faith and salvation not by works.  All just more "flat earther" stuff from GB ! !

Offline GB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #102 on: Tue Nov 05, 2019 - 09:43:42 »
And what does God say was the result of that?

 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with you and will bless you, for to you and to your offspring I will give all these lands, and I will establish the oath that I swore to Abraham your father.  I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and will give to your offspring all these lands. And in your offspring all the nations of the earth shall be blessed..... WHY? ....because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Nothing there is about Paul's discussion about and distinction between salvation by faith and salvation not by works.  All just more "flat earther" stuff from GB ! !

In your religion this is true. But not to Paul.

Paul uses Abraham as an example of true faith in Christ. Jesus said we are Abraham's Children, "IF" we do the Works of Abraham. Who had God's Laws and Commandments but didn't have the Levitical Priesthood, At least the Christ of the Bible teaches these things.

Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

1 Cor. 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Acts 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.

14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

2 Tim. 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, (Law and Prophets) which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All This does not take away from your statement

"In order to be a "doer" of the law one must keep the whole law and fail in not one single point."

We are told by God, Moses, Isaiah, Joshua, Jeremiah, John  the Baptist, Paul, Peter, James and Jesus, the Lord's Christ Himself, to be a "DOER" of God's Laws not hearers only.

But you teach to the world that we "CAN'T" be a doer because to be one, a person "MUST" not fail in one single point.


You have to reject a lot of God's Words to be convinced of that.





Offline 4WD

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #103 on: Tue Nov 05, 2019 - 11:27:37 »
But you teach to the world that we "CAN'T" be a doer because to be one, a person "MUST" not fail in one single point.


You have to reject a lot of God's Words to be convinced of that.
If you expect to be saved by being a doer of the Law, then you must be a doer who has not failed in even one. And that is what Paul teaches.

Offline RB

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Re: Works of the Law
« Reply #104 on: Tue Nov 05, 2019 - 14:36:13 »
Paul uses Abraham as an example of true faith in Christ. Jesus said we are Abraham's Children, "IF" we do the Works of Abraham. Who had God's Laws and Commandments but didn't have the Levitical Priesthood, At least the Christ of the Bible teaches these things.

Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Every scripture you touch, you corrupt with your gospel of works. You do not understand what Paul is saying in Romans 2:13-15 which reads:
Quote from: Paul
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
This parenthesis is inserted as an explanation of verse 12. The meaning is very clear, much different than the way you are using it to support your cursed gospel.

This parenthesis anticipates an objection which the Jews might have adduced. As they had heard that the law was the rule of righteousness, (See Deuternomy 4:1) they gloried in the mere knowledge of it: to obviate this error, Paul declares that the hearing of the law or any knowledge of it is of no such consequence, that anyone should on that account lay claim to righteousness, as the Jews DID~ but that works must be produced, according to this saying, “He who will do these shall live in them.” The import then of this verse is the following~ That if righteousness be sought from the law, the law must be fulfilled; for the righteousness of the law consists in the perfection of works in thoughts, words and deeds from conception to death.

GB, people like you who pervert this passage for the purpose of building up legal justification by works, deserve most fully to be laughed at even by children. It is therefore improper and beyond what is needful, to introduce here a long discussion on the subject, with the view of exposing so futile a sophistry: for the Apostle only urges here on the Jews what he had mentioned, the decision of the law~That by the law they could not be justified, except they fulfilled the law, that if they transgressed it, a curse was instantly pronounced on them. Now we do not deny but that perfect righteousness is prescribed in the law: but as all are convicted of transgression, we say that another righteousness must be sought. Still more, we can prove from this passage that no one is justified by works; for if they alone are justified by the law who fulfill the law, it follows that no one is justified; for no one can be found who can boast of having fulfilled the law perfectly, but ONE MAN, the man Christ Jesus, the Son of the Living God, and YOU are NOT him GB...even though you truly put yourself on the SAME level as Jesus Christ! Is this not so? What saith thou for thyself?
« Last Edit: Wed Nov 06, 2019 - 03:42:33 by RB »