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llewksgood
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« on: July 05, 2009, 05:27:27 AM »

Is The Rapture in the Bible?

There are many, it seems, who take little thought to the quarrels they bring into the Church of Jesus Christ. One of these is concerning the rapture. The most common of these is the argument, “Show me the word rapture in the Bible.”

Since I must, I will.

The source of the word comes to us directly from 1 Thessalonians 4 :17.

“Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord [NKJV].”

To understand how the word came into being connected to this text one must return to the Greek. The very specific word we are looking at is the word that is translated in the English to that phrase “caught up”. That word in the Greek is harpazõ, which is translated to mean to snatch, or catch away.

Understanding that the H in the Greek is often a guttural sound we soon come to see how it can be loosely transliterated into the English using the letter R, which is more commonly used to express such sounds, although the tip of the tongue is used rather than the back of the throat as in the Germano-French dialects.

Rapture then is simply an incorrect transliteration of the Greek word, and it means to be caught up, or caught away and the verse in Thessalonians could be said this way:

“And we who remain alive will be raptured together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air where we will ever be with the Lord.”

However the original Greek word is used on other occasions to which the term rapture would not be commonly applied, and this is because of the etymology of the word. It must be understood that the word rapture was designed to relate to a specific event and not just any catching or snatching, and that is the event spoken of by Paul and recorded on Thessalonians. This particular event begins with the Lord coming with a shout, and a trumpet, and the dead in Christ rising first [verse 16].

That is the sum event of the rapture. Plainly stated in Scripture. So we see that the rapture is in the Bible. Many confuse this truth with other doctrinal beliefs often held alongside it – such as when the rapture will take place – and deny the existence of something that is plainly stated in Paul’s letter whereby they take away from the truth of Scripture.

That is all I have come to do. If you must contend over the timing of the event please realize that I have no interest in your quarrels. Do as you feel you must.
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« on: July 05, 2009, 05:27:27 AM »

 
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larry2
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« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2009, 06:16:21 AM »


llewksgood - It must be understood that the word rapture was designed to relate to a specific event and not just any catching or snatching, and that is the event spoken of by Paul and recorded on Thessalonians. This particular event begins with the Lord coming with a shout, and a trumpet, and the dead in Christ rising first.

larry2 - Am I correct in assuming that you're restricting the rapture to one group one time, and I'm guessing you mean that to be the whole church? Have you considered that since there is to be a last trump in 1 Corinthians 15:52, there may be other trumps preceding that?

In Jesus' name - larry2

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« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2009, 06:16:21 AM »

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Tantor
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« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2009, 07:11:44 AM »

So much ado and wasted energy for something that has already taken place... for shame.
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larry2
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« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2009, 08:20:17 AM »


Tantor - So much ado and wasted energy for something that has already taken place... for shame.

larry2 - And you are wasting your time on this thread when you could be studying the writings of Josephus or other historians promoting Reformation, or Preterist doctrines. Not just shame, but hypocrisy.  Frowning   Like Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things.   Smile

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llewksgood
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« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2009, 02:19:04 PM »


llewksgood - It must be understood that the word rapture was designed to relate to a specific event and not just any catching or snatching, and that is the event spoken of by Paul and recorded on Thessalonians. This particular event begins with the Lord coming with a shout, and a trumpet, and the dead in Christ rising first.

larry2 - Am I correct in assuming that you're restricting the rapture to one group one time, and I'm guessing you mean that to be the whole church? Have you considered that since there is to be a last trump in 1 Corinthians 15:52, there may be other trumps preceding that?

In Jesus' name - larry2



I place no restrictions on how God may choose to do anything.

If you must know I tend towards a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church and a mid-tribulation rapture of the 144 000. I do not follow the doctrine portrayed in the Left Behind series.

When I read the parts of the Scripture in 1 Corinthians alongside that of Thessalonians I conclude they speak of one and the same thing.

BTW I think there is a danger in relating the writings of Paul too closely to the revelation of John.
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larry2
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« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2009, 07:10:15 PM »


llewksgood - If you must know I tend towards a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church and a mid-tribulation rapture of the 144 000. I do not follow the doctrine portrayed in the Left Behind series.

larry2 - Well I don't know that "I must know", but I am interested in the things of God; what He is doing, and will do. I personally have not come to the end of all knowledge, but thank you anyway.

In Jesus' name - larry2

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« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2009, 07:10:15 PM »

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Tantor
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« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2009, 08:53:01 PM »


Tantor - So much ado and wasted energy for something that has already taken place... for shame.

larry2 - And you are wasting your time on this thread when you could be studying the writings of Josephus or other historians promoting Reformation, or Preterist doctrines. Not just shame, but hypocrisy.  Frowning   Like Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things.   Smile

In Jesus' name - larry2



Nope.. you are like the Jews of Jesus time... waiting for the wrong signs and didn't recognize their messiah when he did arrive... you are doing the EXACT same thing.
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blituri
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« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2009, 12:33:55 PM »

Jesus said that truth had been hidden in parables from the foundation of the world: this was to fool the foolish clergy He called hypocrites by pointing to speakers, singers and instrument players.  BE CAREFUL or we ALL may miss the PRESENT PERFECT FULFILLMENT OF THE VIOLENT SNATCHING AWAY OF HIS PEOPLE FROM THE CENTERS OF WORLDY RELIGION.

God always gives us a way of escape. This is most often in the clear definition of words left in their original context.  For instance, the boast of praise teams to LIFT YOU UP or bring you into the presence god, means "to create mental excitement" and Jesus called the BURDENS or types of songs as creating "spiritual anxiety through religious rituals."  In Romans 15 this is outlawed as SELF-pleasure which points to all of the performance arts which Jesus identified as the role of the purpose driven Scribes and Pharisees as HYPOCRITES.  The word also connects to KLEPTOMANIA.

    1Th. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
            with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
            and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    1Th. 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain
            shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
            to meet the Lord in the air:
            and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The word has nothing to do with the RAPTURE THEOLOGY.  If you follow the "Locust" thread in Revelation it is clear that they are the Muses of Apollo, Abbadon or Apollyon as the "Having Falen star."  Their task is to "rapt" the faiithful out of churches so that they can enjoy the rest of the Lord in a faithful church. At the same time the locusts or muses hold the "world centered" people captive by music which John called sorcery.   Because the Jews had all of the clear prophecies but did not recognize the First Advent until Christ had been there and gone: those who were baptized were in effect "raptured" out of Jerusalem meaning DRIVEN OUT so that none of them died while a million citizens of Jerusalem were burned up in a place called Topheth.  So, be careful to think about how Jesus uses the enemies to force out true believers into a spiritual kingdom while the world self destructs even burning themselves up with their own words.

G726 harpazō har-pad'-zo From a derivative of G138 ; to seize (in various applications):—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

The word RAPTURE has no GOOD Biblical reference so it may be a MARK God wants you to observe of those who create the mental anxiety of the sacrificial operatives meaning to "make them dumb before the slaughterer" and meaning to "lift them up to cut their throats" so they cannot even BLEAT an objection. So while they are causing you to LIFT UP God just remember that God cannot be LIFTED UP or aroused to be seduced.

The Latin word does not simply mean that we will "float into the air."  Even the Greek speaks of a violent yanking out of the evil society.

Rapio Charis. p. 39 P.), v. a. [root harp; Gr. harpê, a bird of prey, harpagê, harpazô; Lat. rapidus, rapax, rapina. lupê] , to seize and carry off, to snatch, tear, drag, draw, or hurry away, = violenter sive celeriter capio  Nasonis carmina rapti, i. e. torn from his home, borne far away, Ov. P. 4, 16, 1 ; cf. id. H. 13, 9

    [Olympian 7 For Diagoras of Rhodes Boxing-Match 464 B. C.
    [1] As when someone takes a goblet, all golden, the most prized of his possessions,
    foaming with the dew of the vine from a generous hand, and makes a gift of it to his young son-in-law,
            welcoming him with a toast from one home to another,
    [5] honoring the grace of the symposium and the new 1 marriage-bond, and thereby,
            in the presence of his friends, makes him enviable for his harmonious marriage-bed;
    [7] I too, sending to victorious men poured nectar, the gift of the Muses, the sweet fruit of my mind,
            I try to win the gods' favor [10] for those men who were victors at Olympia and at Pytho.
            That man is prosperous, who is encompassed by good reports.

    Grace [Charis], which causes life to flourish, looks with favor now on one man, now on another,
             with both the sweet-singing lyre and the full-voiced notes of flutes.


The Harpe or Siren is a figure in Greek legend used to take men captive.

http://www.piney.com/sirenelyre.jpg

Carmen a song, poem, verse, oracular response, prophecy, form of incantation, tune, air, lay, strain, note, sound

    Example

    Hor. C. 1, 7, 23;Q. Horatius Flaccus, Odes (ed. John Conington)
    Let others Rhodes or Mytilene sing,
    Or Ephesus, or Corinth, set between
    Two seas, or [Baccho] Thebes, or [Apollo] Delphi, for its king
    Each famous, or Thessalian Tempe green;
     
    There are who make chaste Pallas' virgin tower
    The daily burden of unending song,   Jesus died to remove thse laded burdens
    And search for wreaths the olive's rifled bower:
    The praise of Juno sounds from many a tongue,
    Telling of Argos' steeds, Mycenae's gold.


        Juno was the god/goddess of the AIR they were speaking to in 1 Cor 14.

        Juno was the protector and special counselor of the Roman state. She is a daughter of Saturn and sister (but also the wife) of the chief god Jupiter and the mother of Juventas, Mars, and Vulcan.  as a mother goddess, queen of the gods.
        As the patron goddess of Rome and the Roman empire she was called Regina ("queen") and, together with Jupiter and Minerva, was worshipped as a triad on the Capitol (Juno Capitolina) in Rome.
        Juno's own warlike aspect among the Romans is apparent in her attire. She often appeared armed and wearing a goatskin cloak, which was the garment favoured by Roman soldiers on campaign. The name was generally taken to have the sense of "she who brings children into the light" (Latin: lux "light"), but may actually have been derived from lucus ("grove") after a sacred grove of lotus trees on the Esquiline Hill
  This cloak is the Caper which gave its name to Cappella as in the castrated harmony singers in the Sistine.

    Horatius Flaccus
    For me stern Sparta forges no such spell,
    No, nor Larissa's plain of richest mould,
    As bright Albunea echoing from her cel
l.

Echoing is Resono Musical   sonos citharae, musicorum organa. Organum a musical instrument Gen 4:21 Jubal's musical instrument which he used without authority.

Further example of echoing in the Greek literature
       
Horace 1.3. THIS is a fault common to all singers, that among their friends they never are inclined to sing when they are asked, [but] unasked, they never desist. Tigellius, that Sardinian, had this [fault]. Had Caesar, who could have forced him to compliance, besought him on account of his father's friendship and his own, he would have had no success;
       if he himself was disposed, he would chant Io Bacche over and over, [the laded burden]
       from the beginning of an entertainment to the very conclusion of it;
       one while at the deepest pitch of his voice,
       at another time with that which answers to the highest string of the tetrachord.
       There was nothing uniform in that fellow

     Horatius Flaccus Latin
     O headlong Anio! O Tiburnian groves,
     And orchards saturate with shifting streams!

    Latin

    Laudabunt alii* claram* Rhodon aut Mytilenen*
    aut Epheson bimarisve Corinthi**
    moenia vel Baccho Thebas* vel Apolline* Delphos* insignis aut Thessala Tempe*;
    sunt quibus unum opus* est intactae* Palladis urbem*
    carmine perpetuo* celebrare et


    The laded burdens or carmen:

    [b[Carmen[b[ , ignis, n. (old form cas-men , Varr. L. L. p. 86 Bip.) [Sanscr. çasto [p. 293] declaim, praise; cf.: camilla, censeo], a tune, song; poem, verse; an oracular response, a prophecy; a form of incantation (cf.: cano, cantus, and canto).

    I. In gen., a tune, song, air, lay, strain, note, sound, both vocal and instrumental (mostly poet.; in prose, instead of it, cantus; Also the sound of waves,

    II. Esp., a composition in verse, a poem; poetry, verse, song, whether in a broader sense, of every kind of poetic production, epic, dramatic, lyric (opposite to prose, the melody)

    4. A response of an oracle, a prophecy, prediction: 

    5. A magic formula, an incantation : : polleantne aliquid verba et incantamenta carminum, Plin. 28, 2, 3, § 10 : carmina vel caelo possunt deducere lunam; Carminibus Circe socios mutavit Ulixi,  Using voice and citharazue (guitar), Lyre, playingon the cithara

        Circe is CHURCH: Circus , i, m., = kirkos [kindr. with krikos; Dor. kirkos, and korônê; cf.: kulindeô, kullos, cirrus, curvus].
        In or around the Circus many jugglers and soothsayers, etc., stationed themselves;

    6. On account of the very ancient practice of composing forms of religion and law in Saturnian verse, also a formula in religion or law, a form:


The only definition of LEGALISM is the NOMOS used to teach the laws of Apollo using the muses--dirty adulterers.

Carmentis , is (Carmenta , ae, Liv. 1, 7, 8 Weissenb. ad loc.; Hyg. Fab. 277), f. [carmen, q. v.] , a Roman goddess of prophecy, acc. to mythologists, the mother of Evander, who went with him from Arcadia to Latium... , and uttered oracles on the Capitoline Hill,

more RapioC. In partic. 1. To carry off by force; to seize, rob, ravish; to plunder, ravage,
     lay waste, take by assault
, carry by force, etc. (very freq.; cf. praedor),


    (a). rapta , ae, f., the ravished one, the seduced : gratus raptae raptor fuit,
    (b). raptum , i, n., the plunder, that which is stolen: rapto vivere, to live by robbery,
                         In TITHES and OFFERINGS

2. To cut off, mutilate [the castrated priests of Cybele]
3. To carry off suddenly or prematurely by death, to snatch away (poet. and in post-Aug. prose

B. In partic. 1. To carry along or away with passion, to transport, ravish, captivate ; and with a designation of the limit, to carry or hurry away, to attract strongly to any thing (usually in a bad sense): impetu raptus,
          2. Seize by violence


    Tacitus 3. XLI. He wrote to Vitellius asking for aid. Three cohorts with some British cavalry arrived,
    a force too numerous to elude observation, too small to force its way. Even amidst such perils
    Valens could not keep himself clear of the in- [p. 562] famous reputation
           of grasping at unlawful gratifications,
           and of polluting the houses of his hosts with intrigue and violation.
           He had power, he had money,
                 and he indulged the lusts that are
                 the last solace of desperate fortunes.

    Horace Odes 2
    On me the Muse has laid her charge to tell
    Of your Licymnia's voice, the lustrous hue
    Of her bright eye, her heart that beats so well
    To mutual passion true:

    How nought she does but lends her added grace,
    Whether she dance, or join in bantering play,
    Or with soft arms the maiden choir embrace
    On great Diana's day.

    While to your burning lips she bends her neck,
    Or with kind cruelty denies the due
    She means you not to beg for, but to take,
    Or snatches it from you?

Based on the PRECURSORS including the Babylon Mother of harlots using "lusted after fruits" as speakers, singers and instrument players who "snatch you up with passion" whom John called sorcerers, you should anticipate that the RAPTURE (raped) will be TRUMPETED by a giant outburst of "musical worship" to SILENCE the voice of the victim.[/font]
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RevAngel
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« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2009, 03:29:56 PM »

Blituri ...with all due respect


Stick to the topic at hand instead of trying to dazzle people with useless information...Vanity it seems to marvel us with you knowledge....while the truth is your argument did nothing but add disorder to an orderly conversation.

 Banging head against wall Banging head against wall Banging head against wall

Am I to believe that praise music is evil?
How does that deal with the teaching on the Rapture?
Stick to the scripture unless you arent chritian and then in that case ...i am not interested.
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« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2009, 03:29:56 PM »

 
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larry2
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« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2009, 04:32:16 PM »


Tantor - So much ado and wasted energy for something that has already taken place... for shame.

larry2 - And you are wasting your time on this thread when you could be studying the writings of Josephus or other historians promoting Reformation, or Preterist doctrines. Not just shame, but hypocrisy.  Frowning   Like Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things.   Smile

In Jesus' name - larry2



Nope.. you are like the Jews of Jesus time... waiting for the wrong signs and didn't recognize their messiah when he did arrive... you are doing the EXACT same thing.

Brother Tantor, you're on a highhorse   On high horse    Na Na  Gee, that was fun   Rolling on floor laughing

In Jesus' name - larry2

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« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2009, 04:32:16 PM »

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Wycliffes_Shillelagh
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« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2009, 06:06:21 PM »


Tantor - So much ado and wasted energy for something that has already taken place... for shame.

larry2 - And you are wasting your time on this thread when you could be studying the writings of Josephus or other historians promoting Reformation, or Preterist doctrines. Not just shame, but hypocrisy.  Frowning   Like Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things.   Smile

In Jesus' name - larry2


15 whole words...he wasted an awful lot of energy on this.
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« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2009, 09:23:46 PM »

The "rapture" is what happens when we die. In the spiritual realm- the dead are transformed as Jesus receives us.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is history. The corporate resurrection of the dead at the end of the Jewish age. All fulfilled. And no one was "caught up" in the flesh like the fantasy of the little Catholic girl (the prophetess) dreamed.

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 

"Then" is the key word here.  Afterward, when we individually lay down our tent, our spirits get caught up to God too so we can be together with the Lord & our dead loved ones.

What did Stephen say just before he died?  "Lord receive my spirit!"

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