Lots of things getting in the way of getting to this.
Quote from: revc on Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 08:44:38
This is merely an assertion with absolutely no linguistics to back it up.
What I have that you seem to not care much about is scriptural proof. When Paul reasoned with men he did so out of the scriptures preserved by God for his people.
You have no scriptural proof, despite your claim. I gave you the explanation of the genitive used in the scriptures you think teach your notion, but you said nothing against it, nor presented a counter proposal, based on linguistics. You are not reasoning from the scriptures, like Paul, you are quoting a very old translation, which is an even later version of the original translation from over 400 years ago, while ignoring the Greek text on which that translation was based (a translation you appear to believe is inspired by God). More than likely, you are as equally ignorant that the same genitives translated “faith of Christ” (πιστεως ιησου χριστο) in Romans 3:22 are also found in 3:26 and translated “faith in Jesus” (πιστεως ιησου). Both cases are examples of the objective genitive, i.e., Jesus Christ is the object of faith. In Galatians 2:16 the same thing is found, “δια πιστεως ιησου χριστου,” an objective genitive, stating the object of faith, as is εκ πιστεως χριστου, in the same verse. Galatians 3:22 uses the same objective genitive. Jesus mentioned faith some 40 times in the recorded ministry, and never once did he refer to his own faith. Aside from the error of using Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16 and 3:22 as possessives you can’t find any NT writer speaking of Christ having faith. No wonder you declined to provide a list.
That is what the scriptures say. That is proof, as opposed to your “proof,” which is mere unfounded assertion. You were asked to accomplish one simple task, namely, back up your claim, and you declined.
The fact is, we are saved by God’s grace, through our faith in the redemptive work of Christ, which we learn of from no humanly originated ideas. We learn of all redemptive ideas in the gospel (Rom. 10:17), which needs to be proclaimed to all people so that they can learn of their dire circumstances, having sinned, and the only available remedy to the situation, which is to be spiritually reborn in connection with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. We must join with him in death and burial of the old man of sin so that we may be resurrected in his likeness. Unlike physical birth, where we have no say in the matter, we choose to believe the message of salvation and be reborn, allowing the gospel to work on our hearts and transform us into spiritual children of God. Reformation Theology lies to the contrary notwithstanding.
The only reason you want to believe that Christ had faith is because of the erroneous doctrine you have advanced here that God chooses to save a few people, and after they are saved by Christ’s faith and God’s irresistible grace they then get faith of their own, and not of their own choosing. The Bible teaches nothing of the sort from beginning to end.
Quote from: Luke
Acts 17:2,3~"And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ."
The prophets, Jesus Christ and his apostles were given to the scripture ALONE for their doctrine and source of truth~period.
When Paul reasoned out of the scriptures they all understood the language being read. You do not seem to want to deal with the language used by the KJV translators. You were given opportunity to give reason from the text used by the translators, but, unless I missed it, you never gave your expert reasoning why those Greek scriptures should be genitives of possession rather than objective genitives. Even if you chose to take the genitives as subjective, that would still leave you with genitives that produce the action of the verb, i.e., Jesus would produce faith in the believer, which is surely not what you asserted. That leaves you with a genitive of possession. I highly doubt that the translators of the KJV (or any translation) were using the genitives as possessives, as you are ignorantly reading into the texts. They may have been giving them the sense of subjective genitives, but that is still no help to your absurd notion that The Word made flesh had faith while dwelling among us as opposed to intimate knowledge of the situation. Romans 3 and Galatians 2 have been taken away from your imaginary list by rudimentary linguistics. Since you had opportunity to add to that list and did not, I suspect that you have nothing to fall back on that states or implies that Christ possessed faith, as opposed to first-hand knowledge.
This first-hand knowledge is founded upon the deity of the incarnate Word, who was, as John 1:18 says, “In the bosom of the Father” and, though even in “the form of a servant” while here, was, as John 3:13 says, “ο υιος του ανθρωπου ο ων εν τω ουρανω” (the son of man, which is in heaven). Those are the words used by the KJV translators. Surely you will not dispute that though the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us that, due to his divine nature he was still in heaven. He is not as mere man, who must be either in one place or another, for although the Word came down from heaven he was still in heaven, as John 3:13 unequivocally states. Why would he need faith if he was God in the flesh and still in intimate contact with deity? Paul states that Faith and Hope will one day cease (obviously when we are in heaven), so what possible explanation is there for The Son of Man, who IS in heaven to need faith?
Quote from: revc Reply #70 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 08:44:38
Perhaps a list of all the scriptures that speak of Christ possessing faith
I gave some and you mocked them, proving to me that that is not what you are after. I will not cast pearls before a swine, for my Lord has commanded me not to do so, and I will not.
No, you gave your spin on scriptures without proving that the Greek from which the translation stems actually says what you are claiming. I mocked nothing, especially the word of God. You were given an opportunity to explain your understanding of the genitives and you chose, rather, to ignore that and go on tirades. For someone who obviously fancies himself as a leader of the blind, possessing understanding beyond the attainment of mere humans, you sure failed to enlighten readers on basic Greek grammar. Why would someone withhold such insights?
Quote from: revc Reply #70 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 08:44:38
linguistic data backing up the translations would do well.
That's not needed and NONE of the apostles or Christ ever requested such an absurd thing. They used what they had, KNOWING God's promises to protect his word from the wicked generation of evil men who have no regard for his word, and certainly do not have the faith of God's elect trusting God to keep his word pure. So they wander through this world with NO solid faith in the holy scriptures professing themselves to be wise, yet God has blinded their eyes because of their proud spirit, thinking themselves that they are wise enough to figure this inspiration of the holy scriptures out. Such men are in for a big surprise and a very rude awakening.
This would be funny if it were not a serious matter. Why would Christ or the apostles request anything when they would be the ones presenting and defending their position? Others would have asked them to prove their positions and that is exactly what they did repeatedly. You, on the other hand, run from such a task. This paragraph of yours is an incoherent rambling that is so beside the point it is sad. Why not just use what you have available, like Christ and his apostles did? Use the TR, on which the KJV was based, and prove that what you asserted about Christ holds up linguistically? I have an idea that you shirk that challenge because you are not equipped to step up to it. If you have faith in a translation, surely your faith in the Greek text it was based on would be at least as firm, wouldn’t you think? It is not asking too much that you resort to the TR and enlighten readers on the translation and import of the words employed by the Holy Spirit.
Quote from: revc Reply #70 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 08:44:38
This is an example of ignorance of the original language and a seeming lack of interest in arriving at the meaning of the original language.
Sir, you are only deceiving yourself~you have NO CLUE of any original language and neither does any man living or that has lived. All anyone has EVER had in what they have is in the translations given by ready scribes, from Moses on to our day! BY FAITH we trust God that he has preserved his word JUST AS God first gave it~if one does not have THAT FAITH he shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of God~ I'm NOT speaking of the kingdom of God in its final state, but the kingdom now where men and women lived KNOWING the truth and understanding it and love it...where they live by faith, and not by sight.
This is truly delusional. I see you quote scripture quite often (then put your twisted spin on most of it), mainly a translation based on the Majority Text, and a later version than the first. If no man has any clue of any original language, just what language were those manuscripts used by Erasmus to assemble the TR? What language were the KJV translators looking at when they chose the English words you are citing?
? Just where are you getting this faith that YOU have God’s word? Did He tell you this personally? If you go to some translation (like the KJV) to prove that IT is God’s preserved word while the manuscripts it is based on are NOT God’s word, that is beyond absurd.
Quote from: revc Reply #70 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 08:44:38
Before you can arrive at interpretation you must first determine translation.
SO WRONG! Divine revelation comes through the Spirit of God, NOT through knowing certain translations or by human wisdom, but to those who HUMBLE themselves and confess that they are little children seeking the truth forsaking all of their earthly wisdom trusting in God's mercy to reveal his hidden truths to them~much like Solomon when he first prayed unto God. Not that you care, but here it is.…
Sorry, but I am not wrong. In order to understand what the Greek text (the specific case in view here) means, it must be translated into the proper words and language of the target audience. That this even needs to be said speaks volumes about your true abilities to handle the word of God. There is no translation into any language on earth that will not go back to the available Greek texts and apply all available learning to translate those texts into the target language so the readers of that translation can get the meaning and sense intended when the original writings were first made.
I find it remarkable that you are trying to equate understanding of God’s will as equal to the miraculous gifts of wisdom and understanding given to Solomon. In bold contradiction to your false assertion that revelation comes from the Spirit directly to a person, you try to use an old English translation of Hebrew texts to back that up after telling us that interpretations do NOT come from translations. How do you justify using a translation to prove that no truths come by means of translations?
I suppose you think it makes you special if you can stand convinced that God is revealing hidden truths to you. Why do you feel the need to quote translated scripture? Do you believe that your understandings are revelations unable to be attained by reading the scriptures that were translated from Greek manuscripts? Paul stated clearly that when we read his writings we are able to “understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ.” It does not take revelation from God beyond the inspired writings.
Quote
1st King 3:3-14~"And Solomon loved the LORD, walking in the statutes of David his father: only he sacrificed and burnt incense in high places. And the king went to Gibeon to sacrifice there; for that was the great high place: a thousand burnt offerings did Solomon offer upon that altar. In Gibeon the LORD appeared to Solomon in a dream by night: and God said, Ask what I shall give thee. And Solomon said, Thou hast shewed unto thy servant David my father great mercy, according as he walked before thee in truth, and in righteousness, and in uprightness of heart with thee; and thou hast kept for him this great kindness, that thou hast given him a son to sit on his throne, as it is this day. And now, O LORD my God, thou hast made thy servant king instead of David my father: and I am but a little child: I know not how to go out or come in. And thy servant is in the midst of thy people which thou hast chosen, a great people, that cannot be numbered nor counted for multitude. Give therefore thy servant an understanding heart to judge thy people, that I may discern between good and bad: for who is able to judge this thy so great a people? And the speech pleased the Lord, that Solomon had asked this thing. And God said unto him, Because thou hast asked this thing, and hast not asked for thyself long life; neither hast asked riches for thyself, nor hast asked the life of thine enemies; but hast asked for thyself understanding to discern judgment; Behold, I have done according to thy words: lo, I have given thee a wise and an understanding heart; so that there was none like thee before thee, neither after thee shall any arise like unto thee. And I have also given thee that which thou hast not asked, both riches, and honour: so that there shall not be any among the kings like unto thee all thy days. And if thou wilt walk in my ways, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as thy father David did walk, then I will lengthen thy days."
This is totally irrelevant to modern day. Nobody, not even you, is given more, or different, understanding of God’s will than can be arrived at from reading the scriptures. Unfortunately, some come to the scriptures with preconceptions, like your Reformation Theology, and then try to force the scriptures to support the ideas when they do not. Others here have pointed out some of your failings adequately enough that I need not even enter those disputes. Your response is basically to say, “I say the scriptures say ‘such and such’ so that ends that.” The Watchtower Society acts similarly. When challenged with the linguistic failings and irrational nature of your assertions you just blast everyone that does not accept your pronouncements.
Quote from: revc Reply #70 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 08:44:38
It really makes no sense to discuss anything further with you if you are unwilling to defend your assertion that God incarnate had faith,
One thing then I'M FINISHED with you. I have NEVER said that God incarnate had faith, see you do not understand so it fruitless to carry on a conversation with you. THE MAN Jesus had faith as a MAN. Jesus was a complex person fully God, and fully man, it was the MAN, Jesus of Nazareth that lived in a body of flesh and blood that had faith, not God. The two natures of Jesus were ever separated from each other, what could be said of one, could NOT be said of the other.
You’re finished, huh? Sure. You are so proud of your heretical beliefs that you will not be able to avoid trying to convince yourself (and perhaps others) that you actually do know what you are talking about. Oh, you will indeed answer. You will not supply any scriptural proof that Christ had faith, nor will you point to a text that specifies the object of that faith. You will go on a mouth-foaming rant against facts, and, if you even cite any passages, misuse more scripture, all the while believing the Reformation Theology delusion God is allowing you to believe, since believing the truth is obviously something you are disinclined to do.
So, you wish to separate the flesh and blood human body from the mind, which is the rational and moral consciousness of the spirit. The spirit within the body is either divine (deity, in the case of Christ alone) or not (created by God and placed in a human body, as is the case with all humans). The spirit is the source of all understanding, will, and conscience. Faith does not reside in a material body but in the spiritual nature of man. Faith is a decision based on evidence (i.e., faith comes by hearing the word of God Rom. 10:17. c.f. also Jn. 20:31). If Jesus had faith, something you will never find affirmed in scripture, it could only issue from his spiritual nature.
Your assertion that the “two natures of Jesus were ever separated from each other” smacks of some kind of quasi-docetic gnosticism of the worst sort. The spiritual nature of Jesus (divine) held total sway over all physical aspects and hence his pre-existent self (the Word) dominated any weaknesses the flesh naturally had. Thus, he remained free from sin, doubt, deception, intimidation, and moral weakness. Faith is only present where complete knowledge is not available. As God in bodily form, Christ had first-hand knowledge of the events he was engaged in and where they would all end, he being the one in whom all things consist (Col. 1:17).
Learn what I believe before trying to attack me, when you attack me, learn what I do believe and teach.
I have not attacked you, but rather your doctrine. I have stated some facts and given you opportunity to enlighten readers. You squandered that opportunity in your first attempt. And, I have seen plenty from your pen to know enough of what you believe and that far too much of it is dead wrong and based on poor grasp of language.
RC
Topic: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts? (Read 7332 times)