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Author Topic: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?  (Read 7800 times)

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Offline soterion

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #280 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 10:37:07 »
I don't see either passage teaching universal salvation, though.

I don't either. I never said they did.

What I said was: If the spiritual condition of all was being spoken of instead of the physical, then the passage would be teaching Universalism.

In other words, if 1 Cor 15:22 was to be mistakenly thought to teach spiritual death and life, then it would teach Universalism.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #280 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 10:37:07 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #281 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 11:07:05 »
It is a MARK when you don't even quote the WORD:

1Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die,
       even so IN Christ shall all be made alive.

Gal. 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith IN Christ Jesus.
Gal. 3:27 For [what I mean is that] as many of you as have been
      baptized into Christ
      have put on Christ. [been clothed with Christ)

That means only a tiny little (mikros) flock whom Jesus adds to the WAY which is called a SECT.

That little kingdom is INVISIBLE and INAUDIBLE because it does not come with OBSERVATION meaning religious observations ANTITHETICAL to the School of Christ where the little flock WON'T GO OUT
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 11:09:24 by Kenneth Sublett »

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #281 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 11:07:05 »

Online RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #282 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 12:37:40 »
I know that you believe that " through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men" (Rom 5:18a) where all men means every man who has ever lived or ever will live. Do you believe that "......through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men" (Rom 5:18b) , where the "all men" here in Rom 5:18b means the same as the "all men" in Rom 5:18a?  No you do not.  Paul obviously did, but you do not.
If you desire to rehash this subject then go here   http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/did-all-mankind-sinned-in-adam/

And consider replies: 126, 131, 139, 177, 193, 201, 202, 228, 230, 232, 248, 254, 256, 257, 271, 274, 275 and 279 a verse by verse through Romans 5:12-22 where you had your chance along with soterion and others but I did not see very much from either of you. I stated my position very clearly and did not skip a phrase (doctrine) that was important but addressed them as I came to them.
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 12:40:09 by RB »

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #282 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 12:37:40 »

Online 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #283 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 12:50:46 »
If you desire to rehash this subject then go here   http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/did-all-mankind-sinned-in-adam/

And consider replies: 126, 131, 139, 177, 193, 201, 202, 228, 230, 232, 248, 254, 256, 257, 271, 274, 275 and 279 a verse by verse through Romans 5:12-22 where you had your chance along with soterion and others but I did not see very much from either of you. I stated my position very clearly and did not skip a phrase (doctrine) that was important but addressed them as I came to them.
RB, I know what your position is.  It is a rather typical position for the Calvinist.  As far as I am concerned it is wrong.  It derives from Calvinism, not from Scripture. 

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #283 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 12:50:46 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #284 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 13:02:33 »
RB and all Calvinist will die because sin entered into the WORLD.  Seth was righteous along with many but Seth died.

Maybe if he has always been sinless he could live forever. But, if we say that we have no sin we are a liar and DIE.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #284 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 13:02:33 »



Ginger Rella

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #285 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 13:40:58 »

  "Just as" Adam's sin had a universal effect, "so also" did the cross of Christ. This point reinforces our assurance that the cross is worthy of our trust. The message is clear  -- Christ's cross completely cancels the results of Adam's sin.[/size][/b][/color]  Paul states that in Romans 5:18 and then repeats it again in a slightly different way in Romans 5:19.



4WD... you are a master of spin.

To move this away from the KJV, which is such an offense to many.. I have Romans 5 here from the Aramaic Bible in plain English.

And I space the sentences for easier reading.

1Because we have been declared righteous, therefore, by faith, we shall have peace with God in Our Lord Yeshua The Messiah, 2For in

him we have been brought close by faith to this grace in which we stand, and we boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3And not only in

this way, but we boast also in afflictions, for we know that affliction perfects patience in us, 4And patience, experience, and experience,

hope, 5But hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has come in, overflowing our hearts by The Spirit of Holiness who has

been given to us.

6But surely because of our weakness, at this time The Messiah has died for the sake of the wicked. 7For a man will hardly die for the

sake of the wicked*, however a man perhaps may dare to die for the sake of the good. 8Here God demonstrates his love for us,

because if when we were sinners, The Messiah died in our place, 9How much more therefore, would we all the more be justified now by

his blood and be saved from wrath by him? 10For if when we were enemies, God was reconciled with us in the death of his Son, how

much more therefore, in his reconciliation, shall we live all the more by his life? 11And not in this way only, but also we glory in God by

Our Lord Yeshua The Messiah, by whom we have now received the reconciliation.

12For just as by the agency of one man, sin entered the universe, and by means of sin, death, in this way death passed by this sin*

unto all the children of men, because all of them have sinned. 13For until The Written Law, sin was in the universe, but it was not

accounted as sin, because there was no written law. 14But death reigned from Adam and until Moses, even over those who had not

sinned in the likeness of Adam's violation of the law, who was the image of him who was to come.

15But the fall was unlike the gift in this way: for if because of the fall of one the many died, much more, therefore, the grace of God and

the gift by The One Man Yeshua The Messiah shall superabound to the many. 16And the gift is not the same as the offense of the one,

for the judgment was from the one to pronouncing guilty verdicts, but the gift was from many sins to righteousness. 17For if because of

the offense of one, death reigned, all the more, those who receive an abundance of favor and the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by the agency of The One, Yeshua The Messiah.   (Note: Those does not mean all.)

18In like manner therefore, because of the offense of the one there was a guilty verdict to all the children of men, in the same way,

because of the righteousness of The One there shall be the victory for Life to all the children of men. 19For just as because of the

disobedience of one man the many became sinners, so also because of the obedience of The One the

many become righteous
. 20But

there was the introduction to The Written Law that sin would increase, and wherever sin increased, there grace superabounded. 21That

as sin reigned by death, in this way grace shall reign by righteousness to eternal life by Our Lord Yeshua The Messiah.


It does not uncategorically say all !!!!!!!!!!


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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #285 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 13:40:58 »

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #286 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 13:44:55 »
4WD... you are a master of spin.

To move this away from the KJV, which is such an offense to many.. I have Romans 5 here from the Aramaic Bible in plain English.

And I space the sentences for easier reading.

1Because we have been declared righteous, therefore, by faith, we shall have peace with God in Our Lord Yeshua The Messiah, 2For in

him we have been brought close by faith to this grace in which we stand, and we boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3And not only in

this way, but we boast also in afflictions, for we know that affliction perfects patience in us, 4And patience, experience, and experience,

hope, 5But hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has come in, overflowing our hearts by The Spirit of Holiness who has

been given to us.

6But surely because of our weakness, at this time The Messiah has died for the sake of the wicked. 7For a man will hardly die for the

sake of the wicked*, however a man perhaps may dare to die for the sake of the good. 8Here God demonstrates his love for us,

because if when we were sinners, The Messiah died in our place, 9How much more therefore, would we all the more be justified now by

his blood and be saved from wrath by him? 10For if when we were enemies, God was reconciled with us in the death of his Son, how

much more therefore, in his reconciliation, shall we live all the more by his life? 11And not in this way only, but also we glory in God by

Our Lord Yeshua The Messiah, by whom we have now received the reconciliation.

12For just as by the agency of one man, sin entered the universe, and by means of sin, death, in this way death passed by this sin*

unto all the children of men, because all of them have sinned. 13For until The Written Law, sin was in the universe, but it was not

accounted as sin, because there was no written law. 14But death reigned from Adam and until Moses, even over those who had not

sinned in the likeness of Adam's violation of the law, who was the image of him who was to come.

15But the fall was unlike the gift in this way: for if because of the fall of one the many died, much more, therefore, the grace of God and

the gift by The One Man Yeshua The Messiah shall superabound to the many. 16And the gift is not the same as the offense of the one,

for the judgment was from the one to pronouncing guilty verdicts, but the gift was from many sins to righteousness. 17For if because of

the offense of one, death reigned, all the more, those who receive an abundance of favor and the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by the agency of The One, Yeshua The Messiah.   (Note: Those does not mean all.)

18In like manner therefore, because of the offense of the one there was a guilty verdict to all the children of men, in the same way,

because of the righteousness of The One there shall be the victory for Life to all the children of men. 19For just as because of the

disobedience of one man the many became sinners, so also because of the obedience of The One the

many become righteous
. 20But

there was the introduction to The Written Law that sin would increase, and wherever sin increased, there grace superabounded. 21That

as sin reigned by death, in this way grace shall reign by righteousness to eternal life by Our Lord Yeshua The Messiah.


It does not uncategorically say all !!!!!!!!!!
Interesting Aramaic edition you're using there; it must be rather helpful at times.

Online 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #287 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 13:46:30 »
4WD... you are a master of spin.

To move this away from the KJV, which is such an offense to many.. I have Romans 5 here from the Aramaic Bible in plain English.

And I space the sentences for easier reading.

1Because we have been declared righteous, therefore, by faith, we shall have peace with God in Our Lord Yeshua The Messiah, 2For in

him we have been brought close by faith to this grace in which we stand, and we boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3And not only in

this way, but we boast also in afflictions, for we know that affliction perfects patience in us, 4And patience, experience, and experience,

hope, 5But hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has come in, overflowing our hearts by The Spirit of Holiness who has

been given to us.

6But surely because of our weakness, at this time The Messiah has died for the sake of the wicked. 7For a man will hardly die for the

sake of the wicked*, however a man perhaps may dare to die for the sake of the good. 8Here God demonstrates his love for us,

because if when we were sinners, The Messiah died in our place, 9How much more therefore, would we all the more be justified now by

his blood and be saved from wrath by him? 10For if when we were enemies, God was reconciled with us in the death of his Son, how

much more therefore, in his reconciliation, shall we live all the more by his life? 11And not in this way only, but also we glory in God by

Our Lord Yeshua The Messiah, by whom we have now received the reconciliation.

12For just as by the agency of one man, sin entered the universe, and by means of sin, death, in this way death passed by this sin*

unto all the children of men, because all of them have sinned. 13For until The Written Law, sin was in the universe, but it was not

accounted as sin, because there was no written law. 14But death reigned from Adam and until Moses, even over those who had not

sinned in the likeness of Adam's violation of the law, who was the image of him who was to come.

15But the fall was unlike the gift in this way: for if because of the fall of one the many died, much more, therefore, the grace of God and

the gift by The One Man Yeshua The Messiah shall superabound to the many. 16And the gift is not the same as the offense of the one,

for the judgment was from the one to pronouncing guilty verdicts, but the gift was from many sins to righteousness. 17For if because of

the offense of one, death reigned, all the more, those who receive an abundance of favor and the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by the agency of The One, Yeshua The Messiah.   (Note: Those does not mean all.)

18In like manner therefore, because of the offense of the one there was a guilty verdict to all the children of men, in the same way,

because of the righteousness of The One there shall be the victory for Life to all the children of men. 19For just as because of the

disobedience of one man the many became sinners, so also because of the obedience of The One the

many become righteous
. 20But

there was the introduction to The Written Law that sin would increase, and wherever sin increased, there grace superabounded. 21That

as sin reigned by death, in this way grace shall reign by righteousness to eternal life by Our Lord Yeshua The Messiah.


It does not uncategorically say all !!!!!!!!!!
From the Aramaic Bible in plain English.  So who translated the Greek into Aramaic?   And then into English?  As that old saying goes  -- Surely you jest.

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #288 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 13:49:28 »
From the Aramaic Bible in plain English.  So who translated the Greek into Aramaic?   And then into English?  As that old saying goes  -- Surely you jest.
Why wouldn't another version be helpful?

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #288 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 13:49:28 »

Online 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #289 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 14:26:47 »
Why wouldn't another version be helpful?
Well why not?  Perhaps a Japanese Bible in plain English?  Or perhaps a Polish Bible in plain English?  Maybe a Swahili Bible in plain English?  Seriously, there is no end to the versions you might be able to pick up.

Ginger Rella

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #290 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 15:11:22 »
From the Aramaic Bible in plain English.  So who translated the Greek into Aramaic?   And then into English?  As that old saying goes  -- Surely you jest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_New_Testament

Why?  Why would I be jesting? You are the one who has an issue with the KJV. I am not a KJV only person but I take issue with more modern interpretation not of Greek to English but of English to more currently acceptable English.

In fact, my choice is to read chapters, parallel to see what the others are saying or perceiving. And I do this by bible hub.. as can be sampled right here............. NOT ALL interpretations or versions say the same thing but can often be used to suit a commentary or promote an idea all because we do not have original texts and even if we did no one , alive today, 
could do them justice.

https://biblehub.com/matthew/1.htm

But of course you will find fault with doing such because you have your perfected interpretation within the bible of your choice.... haven't you?????  Un huh... that's what I thought.




Online 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #291 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 18:45:10 »
But of course you will find fault with doing such because you have your perfected interpretation within the bible of your choice.... haven't you?????  Un huh... that's what I thought.
I use the NASB, the AVS, the ESV, the NIV, the KJV, the NKJV, the RV and occasionally the YLT and the NIrV.  That together with a number of commentaries, Greek and Hebrew language dictionaries and such encyclopedias as are available.  I have a rather extensive library of hard copy commentaries and study helps.  But I have to admit, I have never seen a need to appeal to an Aramaic translation.  I don't have a good grasp of the Aramaic.  As a matter of fact I don't have any grasp of the Aramaic, so I am not sure what value it would hold for me. 

 

     
anything