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Author Topic: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?  (Read 7096 times)

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Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #35 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 07:05:02 »
So when the Bible speaks of God being faithful or speaks of His faithfulness, that means that God believes, that God has faith?  What does God have faith in?  What is it that God does not know and in which He can only believe and trust.  What did Jesus not know that He could only believe in and trust in; i.e., have faith. Did He not really know that He was the Son of God?  Was that something that He could only believe?No, I keep trusting in God, His word and His  promises. You keep trusting in Calvin, not God.  You keep believing that God created mankind primarily as fodder for the fire of hell, picking only a few that He will not throw into the flames.

You speak of robbing Jesus of His glory and honor, but very little robs God and Jesus of Their glory and honor more than believing in total depravity, unconditional election and limited atonement.
Hi, Sir; I think you will find that for instance in Ephesians 2 there are some very strong statements about man's total inability - apart from God's grace.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #35 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 07:05:02 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #36 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 07:29:42 »
Then your understanding is not according to Paul's teaching concerning the gospel of the grace where eternal life is imputeth to one's account on the behalf of Jesus Christ's perfect life of obedience.
Then you quoted Romans 5:19.  But there is nothing in Romans 5:19 that speaks of eternal life.

Quote from: RB
By Adam's ONE disobedience many (MULTITUDES OF BILLIONS) were made sinners~"SO" in like manner......by Jesus' obedience many are made righteous......"
It is a real puzzle to me that you could believe that the power of Jesus' obedience was so much less efficacious than the power of Adam's disobedience.  Paul said that just as by "one man's disobedience the many were made sinners" so also by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

You would believe that Adam's disobedience effected the whole of mankind while Jesus' obedience effected only a few people.  Not good  --  not good at all.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #36 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 07:29:42 »

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #37 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 07:34:18 »
Then you quoted Romans 5:19.  But there is nothing in Romans 5:19 that speaks of eternal life.
It is a real puzzle to me that you could believe that the power of Jesus' obedience was so much less efficacious than the power of Adam's disobedience.  Paul said that just as by "one man's disobedience the many were made sinners" so also by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

You would believe that Adam's disobedience effected the whole of mankind while Jesus' obedience effected only a few people.  Not good  --  not good at all.
Hi; Sir; I don't think this should be an argument for universalism, though.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #37 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 07:34:18 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #38 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 08:08:04 »
Hi; Sir; I don't think this should be an argument for universalism, though.
And I don't make that argument.  And that is not what Paul is saying.  The passage is not speaking of our disobedience.  The comparison there is only between the effects of Adam's disobedience and Jesus' obedience.  And what the passage tells us is that Jesus' obedience effectively negated any effect that Adam's disobedience might have had.  Jesus' obedience did away with the possibility of any original sin due to Adam's disobedience. Paul is not speaking about our sins; he deals with that in the next chapter, chapter six and following.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #38 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 08:08:04 »

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #39 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 08:11:19 »
And I don't make that argument.  And that is not what Paul is saying.  The passage is not speaking of our disobedience.  The comparison there is only between the effects of Adam's disobedience and Jesus' obedience.  And what the passage tells us is that Jesus' obedience effectively negated any effect that Adam's disobedience might have had.  Jesus' obedience did away with the possibility of any original sin due to Adam's disobedience. Paul is not speaking about our sins; he deals with that in the next chapter, chapter six and following.
Oh okay; I wasn't quite sure what you were saying, anyway.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #39 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 08:11:19 »



Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #40 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 08:14:42 »
Hi, Sir; I think you will find that for instance in Ephesians 2 there are some very strong statements about man's total inability - apart from God's grace.
I think not.  In fact I think the very notion of total inability or total depravity as presented in  reformed theology is one of the more insidious of false teachings.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #40 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 08:14:42 »

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #41 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 08:17:37 »
I think not.  In fact I think the very notion of total inability or total depravity as presented in  reformed theology is one of the more insidious of false teachings.
'...children of wrath, even as others. But God, Who is rich in mercy...even when we were dead in sins...'

The wondrous, initiative in grace came from God.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #42 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 08:21:58 »
'...children of wrath, even as others. But God, Who is rich in mercy...even when we were dead in sins...'
Even when we were dead in OUR sins, not any one else's.
Quote from: faroukfarouk
The wondrous, initiative in grace came from God.
And available to all who believe.

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #43 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 08:25:56 »
Oh I agree it's available to all who believe! :)

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #43 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 08:25:56 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #44 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 08:27:16 »
Oh I agree it's available to all who believe! :)
And who can believe?

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #45 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 08:28:56 »
And who can believe?
Those who are quickened, as per Ephesians 2. I don't see faith as a meritorious work; grace has to be the context of saving faith.

Offline soterion

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #46 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 08:29:36 »
'...children of wrath, even as others. But God, Who is rich in mercy...even when we were dead in sins...'

The wondrous, initiative in grace came from God.

Total inability or total depravity, as presented in reformed theology, means that the sinner has zero ability to respond to God's grace and will freely. The response by those who hold this view is that the sinner must first be acted upon by God inwardly, resulting in (depending on who exactly you are talking to) his being born again and recreated with a new heart that is responsive to God. The faith that saves is Jesus', not the sinner's, and the faith of the newly created saint only exists after that process by the Spirit.

That is rubbish. Being a sinner does not stop a person from having and exercising a free will and being able to respond to God with faith if he actually believes the gospel. The faith of Ephesians 2:8 is that of the sinner, not Jesus'.

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #47 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 08:32:22 »
Total inability or total depravity, as presented in reformed theology, means that the sinner has zero ability to respond to God's grace and will freely. The response by those who hold this view is that the sinner must first be acted upon by God inwardly, resulting in (depending on who exactly you are talking to) his being born again and recreated with a new heart that is responsive to God. The faith that saves is Jesus', not the sinner's, and the faith of the newly created saint only exists after that process by the Spirit.

That is rubbish. Being a sinner does not stop a person from having and exercising a free will and being able to respond to God with faith if he actually believes the gospel. The faith of Ephesians 2:8 is that of the sinner, not Jesus'.
We see things differently, I guess.

I don't see faith as a meritorious work, but as something that must always be by grace alone.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #48 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 08:34:47 »
Those who are quickened, as per Ephesians 2. I don't see faith as a meritorious work; grace has to be the context of saving faith.
So one can believe only if God first allows one to believe?  It is not those who are quickened who believe; rather it is those who believe who are quickened, as per Ephesians 2.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #49 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 08:38:25 »
We see things differently, I guess.

I don't see faith as a meritorious work, but as something that must always be by grace alone.
By grace alone does not preclude God's creating mankind with the ability to believe.  That ability is one of the more gracious gifts to man.

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #50 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 08:42:27 »
By grace alone does not preclude God's creating mankind with the ability to believe.  That ability is one of the more gracious gifts to man.
I don't see how the will of fallen man is stronger than Divine omnipotence. (But we could go round and round...)

Offline soterion

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #51 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 08:47:21 »
We see things differently, I guess.

I don't see faith as a meritorious work, but as something that must always be by grace alone.

It seems to me that 1) since God wants all saved (1 Timothy 2:3-4; 2 Peter 3:9), and 2) if the faith that saves is the result of God's grace toward that sinner, then 3) He would exercise that grace toward everybody.

I agree with 4WD that God's gift of freewill for man is extremely gracious on His part. In addition, any expression of God toward man that can result in a person to freely respond to Him is an act of grace.

Faith should not be viewed as a meritorious work, as Paul is describing in Ephesians 2, otherwise he would be contradicting himself. There is nothing meritorious about accepting something as true and having faith in it afterwards.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #52 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 08:55:38 »
I don't see how the will of fallen man is stronger than Divine omnipotence. (But we could go round and round...)
Who said anything about one being stronger than the other?  And divine omnipotence does not preclude free will of man, fallen or otherwise.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #53 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 03:51:53 »
Interesting; so how does what I said contradict what you are saying?
First, I DO NOT want to offend another believer whose understanding may be different than mine. I DO appreciate your post to 4WD and soterion who both embrace a system of pure works, regardless of the jargon they use to try to convince others that they do not. You agreed with this:
Quote from: revc Reply #29 on: Fri Jul 27, 2018 - 14:29:40
Hi; I think the grammatical term in the Greek there is the objective genitive."

Yes, it is.  The same use is found in Romans 3:22.  It is not the faith OF Christ, subjective use of the genitive (possession), it is objective, meaning that our faith has as its object Jesus Christ.  The proper translation is "faith in Christ."
To this you posted:
Quote from: faroukfarouk Reply #30 on: Fri Jul 27, 2018 - 19:30:29
This is my understanding, yes.
Where the scriptures speak of the faith OF Jesus Christ to change that to faith IN Jesus Christ would destroy the gospel of Jesus Christ, which reveals HIS PERFECT LIFE of faith, obedience and his righteousness as the ONLY ground for our justification from sin and condemnation.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for man to have faith apart from the power and grace of God FIRST quickening them to LIFE....impossible. Let me consider some of 4WD and soterion post maybe it just might help you to see the battle a little better.

Offline RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #54 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 04:12:28 »
Hi, Sir; I think you will find that for instance in Ephesians 2 there are some very strong statements about man's total inability - apart from God's grace.
Emphasis are mine~I agree with your post, so far you are 100% correct because the scriptures WILL support you with so many scriptures.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #36 on: Yesterday at 07:29:42
It is a real puzzle to me that you could believe that the power of Jesus' obedience was so much less efficacious than the power of Adam's disobedience.
I do not believe that, that is what you want others to believe that I believe which I do not. Actually, Christ's LIFE and death abounded so much greater than Adam's ONE SIN sent all, YES ALL, of his posterity under the condemnation of the first and second death! Christ's perfect life of faith and obedience covers a MULTITUDES OF SINS.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 5:16~"And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification."
The GIFT of LIFE by Jesus' perfect life of FAITH and OBEDIENCE covers every wicked sin that a child of God committed in his lifetime.... every single sin is UNDER the BLOOD of Jesus that he shed for the sins of his people.

So your claim is false.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 04:15:01 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #55 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 04:51:37 »
Jesus' obedience did away with the possibility of any original sin due to Adam's disobedience.
That's false teaching~Jesus' life of faith and obedience atoned for the sins of HIS PEOPLE~his death DID NOT cancel out Adam's sin that was imputeth to all of his posterity, ONLY for those chosen in him before the foundation of the world, or from eternity.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #40 on: Yesterday at 08:14:42
I think not.  In fact I think the very notion of total inability or total depravity as presented in  reformed theology is one of the more insidious of false teachings.
Total inability/total depravity is from God's testimony~the reformed community are not as strict as they should be concerning this doctrine which I could easily prove, but will not now. But will say this. I just had my tenth grandson born~little Daniel Gabriel Baker and he will VERY soon AGAIN confirm that “The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies” (Psalm 58:3). First, from the moment of birth every child is morally and spiritually cut off from the Lord~a lost sinner. Matthew Henry described it thus: “estranged from God and all good: alienated from the Divine life, and its principles, powers, and blessings.” Adam lost not only the image of God but His favor and fellowship too, being expelled from His presence. And each of his children was born outside Eden, born in a state of sin and condemnation.

All of Adam’s children are delinquents, warped from the beginning. Their very being is polluted, for evil is bred in them. Their “nature” is inclined to wickedness only; and if God leaves them to themselves they will never turn from it.

HOW quickly supply evidence of their separation from God and of the corruption of their hearts~as every godly parent perceives to his sorrow. While in the cradle they evince their opposition to truth, sincerity, integrity. “Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child” (Proverb 22:15), not childishness but foolishness~leaning toward evil, entering upon an ungodly course, forming and following bad habits. It is “bound in the heart”~held firmly there by chains invincible to human power.

But there are those on this forum who seeks to blunt the sharp edge of Psalm 58:3 by narrowing its scope, denying that it has a race-wide application; these are determined at all costs to rid themselves of the unpalatable truth of the total depravity of all mankind. Pelagians and Socinians have insisted that that verse is speaking only of a particularly reprobate class, those who are flagrantly wayward from an early age. Rightly did J. Owen point out:

"It is to no purpose to say that he speaks of wicked men only; that is, such as are habitually and profligately so For whatever any man may afterwards run into by a course of sin, all men are morally alike from the womb, and it is an aggravation of the wickedness of men that it begins so early and holds on in an uninterrupted course. Children are not able to speak from the womb, as soon as they be born. Yet here are they said to speak lies. It is therefore the perverse acting of depraved nature in infancy that is intended, for everything that is irregular, that answers not the law of our creation and rule of our obedience, is a lie."

Quote from: Paul
Ephesians 2:2~“And were by nature the children of wrath, even as others”
That statement is, if possible, even more awful and solemn than Psalm 58:3. It signifies much more than that we are born into the world with a defiled constitution, for it speaks of not simply “children of corruption,” but “children of wrath”~obnoxious to God, criminals in His sight FROM BIRTH!. Depravity of our natures is no mere misfortune; if it were, it would evoke pity, not anger.

Thus “children of wrath” connotes those who are deserving of wrath, heirs of wrath, fit for it. They are born to wrath, and under it, as their heritage. They are not only defiled and corrupt creatures, but the objects of God’s judicial indignation. Why? Because the sin of Adam is imputed to them, and therefore they are regarded as guilty of having broken God’s law.

Equally forcible and explicit are the words “by nature the children of wrath,” in designed contrast with that which is artificially acquired. Many have insisted (contrary to the facts of common experience and observation) that children are corrupted by external contact with evil, that they acquire bad habits by imitation of others. We do not deny that environment has a measure of influence. Yet if any baby could be placed in a perfect setting and surrounded only by sinless beings, it would soon be evident that he was corrupt. We are depraved not by a process of development, but by genesis. It is not “on account of nature” but “by nature,” because of our nativity. It is innate, bred in us. As Goodwin solemnly pointed out, “They are children of wrath in the very womb, before they commit any actual sin.” The depraved nature itself is a penal evil, and that is because of our federal union with Adam, as sharing in his transgression. We are the children of wrath because our federal head fell under the wrath of God. Calvin stated, “There would be no truth in the assertion of Paul that all are by nature the children of wrath if they had not been already under the curse before their birth.”

But a greater than Calvin has informed us:
Quote from: Paul
Romans 9:11-13~“For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated”
This goes back still further, before birth. Esau was an object of God’s hatred before he was born. Obviously a righteous God could not abominate one who was pure and innocent. But how could Esau be guilty prior to doing any good or evil? Because he shared Adam’s criminality; and for precisely the same reason, all of us are by nature the children of wrath~obnoxious and subject to divine punishmen~not only by virtue of our own personal transgressions, but because of our constitution. Deviation is coexistent with our very being. We are members of a cursed head, branches of a condemned tree, streams of a polluted fountain. In a word, the guilt of Adam’s sin lies on us. No other explanation is possible; since our guilt and liability to punishment are not, in the first place, due to our personal sins, they must be because of Adam’s sin being imputed to us.

For the same reason, infants die naturally, for sin is not merely the occasion of physical dissolution but the cause of it. Death is the wages of sin, the sentence of the broken law, the penal infliction of a righteous God. Had Adam never sinned, neither he nor any of his descendants would have become subject to death. Had not the guilt of Adam’s offense been charged to his posterity, none would die in infancy. Yet it does not necessarily follow that any who expire in early childhood are eternally lost. That they are born into this world spiritually dead, alienated from the life of God, is clear; but whether they die eternally, or are saved by sovereign grace, is probably one of those secret things which belong to the Lord. If they are saved it must be because they are among the number elected by the Father, redeemed by the Son and regenerated by the Spirit~without which none can enter heaven; but concerning these things Scripture appears to us to be silent. The Judge of all the earth will do right, and there we may submissively yet trustfully leave it.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 04:56:29 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #56 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 06:27:50 »
And available to all who believe.
That's your bias opinion but you will find no support from God's word. Paul's teachings protected the gospel from men like you and their bias opinions. Let us compare your gospel and it being made avialable for man's decisions based upon what the scriptures teach us, shall we?
Quote from: Paul's gospel vs 4WD's opinion
Romans 3:22~"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"
Paul CLEARLY said that the righteousness of God is by the faith "of" Jesus Christ, and this righteousness is unto ALL, meaning Jews AND Gentiles, for there is NO difference between the two in the rellgion of Jesus Christ, the middle wall of partition is forever gone through the body of Jesus Christ~and this righteousness is upon all that believe, NOT as a conditon, but faith is the evidence that it is UPON THEM. Romans 3:22 is NOT a condtional verse but a scripture DECLARING a biblical truth!

You want to make it available as though salvation can be gotten through our works of obedience...faith, repentance, baptism, etc. If God made it available only then NO ONE would or COULD attain it through their OWN EFFORTS~do you need me to give scriptures to prove this?

So EVERY words in Romans 3:22 were given VERY carefully by the Holy Ghost to Paul to write for us. 

You men complicate the gospel and try to bewitch God's children and rob Jesus Christ of his life of faith and obedience AS the PERFECT sin offering for God's elect.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 06:30:34 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #57 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 07:21:55 »
So EVERY words in Romans 3:22 were given VERY carefully by the Holy Ghost to Paul to write for us.
And you think the word "of"in Romans 3:22 is one of those words the the Holy Ghost very carefully gave to Paul? rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

I am sorry, but I just couldn't help it.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 07:37:38 by 4WD »

Offline soterion

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #58 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 08:40:04 »
That's false teaching~Jesus' life of faith and obedience atoned for the sins of HIS PEOPLE~his death DID NOT cancel out Adam's sin that was imputeth to all of his posterity, ONLY for those chosen in him before the foundation of the world, or from eternity. 


And yet, God wants all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-4; 2 Peter 3:9). He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 18:23, 32).

The atoning work of Christ is available to all and is thus as widespread and efficacious as is the result of Adam's sin, if Romans 5:12-19 says anything about it.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #59 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 09:14:20 »
And you think the word "of"in Romans 3:22 is one of those words the the Holy Ghost very carefully gave to Paul? rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

I am sorry, but I just couldn't help it.

Hillary's laughing fallacy has rubbed off on you. When she could not answer President Trump (then candidate Trump) she would always, yes ALWAYS resorted to laughing as though what he said was something a wise person laughed at.....but was she ever wrong and still is just like you are. 
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 09:22:04 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #60 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 09:21:04 »
And yet, God wants all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-4; 2 Peter 3:9). He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 18:23, 32).

The atoning work of Christ is available to all and is thus as widespread and efficacious as is the result of Adam's sin, if Romans 5:12-19 says anything about it.
Well now, do you feel confident that you understand the sense of those scriptures? If you do, then the word of God may just have a little surprise for you, IF you are willing to accept it. Let me know before I waste my energy on you. I still plan on answering every post by and 4WD IN order as you two posted them as I come to them and WILL answer this one when I come to it.

I have no desire to shame you, but your doctrine will do that for you. RB later........

P.S. If you two see your friend yogi, tell to come and post in this thread since I started it for him~he seemed very confident as well of his beliefs.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 09:24:43 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #61 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 13:57:55 »
Oh I agree it's available to all who believe! :)
Please consider Reply #56 on: Today at 06:27:50
Quote from: 4WD=Reply #44 on: Yesterday at 08:27:16
And who can believe?
Let us let Jesus answer this question, shall we?
Quote from: Jesus Christ
John 6:44,45 and verse 66"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Given the gift of hearing and being able to learned God's truth is a FREE GIFT of grace given to the seed of Jesus Christ, on his behalf earned by HIS FAITH and OBEDIENCE that he SECURED for God's chosen seed.
Quote from: 4WD=Reply #44 on: Yesterday at 08:27:16
And who can believe?
Let us let Paul answer this querstion, shall we?
Quote from: Paul
Philippians 1:29~"For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
One more:
Quote from: Jesus Christ
Matthew 16:17~"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Only those whom God has purposed to called out of darkness into the glorious light of the gospel of his Son. 

Offline RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #62 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 14:18:34 »
Those who are quickened, as per Ephesians 2.
That's correct.
Quote from: faroukfarouk Reply #45 on: Yesterday at 08:28:56
I don't see faith as a meritorious work; grace has to be the context of saving faith.
Well, faith IS a work.
Quote from: John
1st John 3:23~"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment."
Faith is NO different than loving someone both are works that we should DO in our life, BOTH commanded by the law of God~and would be considered works of the law, please consider:
Quote from: Jesus Christ
Matthew 23:23~"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."
The gift of faith in Ephesians 2:9,9 is JESUS' FAITH, that was freely imputed to OUR ACCOUNT, NOT a faith of ours that comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, and is ONLY active AFTER we have been quicken to life, but not only that, that faith of ours is so imperfect, and God's law DEMANDS perfectness and will not accept anything less than perfectness as a right to life!

Offline RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #63 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 16:26:29 »
Total inability or total depravity, as presented in reformed theology, means that the sinner has zero ability to respond to God's grace and will freely. The response by those who hold this view is that the sinner must first be acted upon by God inwardly, resulting in (depending on who exactly you are talking to) his being born again and recreated with a new heart that is responsive to God. The faith that saves is Jesus', not the sinner's, and the faith of the newly created saint only exists after that process by the Spirit.
Yes, it is depending on whom you are speaking with. Now, since I'm NOT of the reformed community, NOR of the Calvinist community per say, niether of which said that it is Jesus' faith that is the means of our justification. That comes from the "HIGH" Calvinist community of which I'AM part of IF you think it better serves you to put a dislike term upon another person's beliefs other than simply proving it wrong with scriptures. They (the reformed and Calvinist) believes it is OUR FAITH that is being excised, even though they BOTH agree that even that is a gift of God, yet by the time they are finished they are no better off than people like you, 4WD and others.
Quote from: soterion Reply #46 on: Yesterday at 08:29:36
That is rubbish.
Prove it. I'm making many posts refuting each as I come to them, I'm not going anywhere unless God takes me away~ AT the moment I'm convinced he wants me right here.
Quote from: soterion Reply #46 on: Yesterday at 08:29:36
Being a sinner does not stop a person from having and exercising a free will and being able to respond to God with faith if he actually believes the gospel.
God's word said that you are dead wrong:
Quote from: John
John 1:13~Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Again, Paul said:
Quote from: Paul in his doctrine
Romans 9:16~So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."
You are arguing against God's word and rejecting its testimony. Go ahead and pervert and wrest this clear-cut scripture to your own destruction.
Quote from: soterion Reply #46 on: Yesterday at 08:29:36
That is rubbish.
Your doctrine is worse...it's devilish, a doctrine of devils~per Paul 1st Timothy 4:1 That would deeply concern me if I were you.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #64 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 18:10:11 »
Hillary's laughing fallacy has rubbed off on you. When she could not answer President Trump (then candidate Trump) she would always, yes ALWAYS resorted to laughing as though what he said was something a wise person laughed at.....but was she ever wrong and still is just like you are.

You said,
So EVERY words in Romans 3:22 were given VERY carefully by the Holy Ghost to Paul to write for us. 

RB, there is no "of" in the words the Holy Spirit gave Paul in Romans or anywhere else.  Whether you want to believe it or not, Paul did not compose his letters, with or without help from the Holy Spirit, in English.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #65 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 18:38:32 »
Your doctrine is worse...it's devilish, a doctrine of devils~per Paul 1st Timothy 4:1 That would deeply concern me if I were you.
The doctrine that is devilish, the doctrine of devils is any doctrine that places the responsibility and blame for lost souls on God. And that is precisely what the doctrines of the reformed community, the Calvinist community and the "HIGH" Calvinist community do with the combination of Total Depravity and Unconditional Election.  You can chase this all the way around Dick's tater patch if you like, but it will not change the fact that the doctrine you profess makes God the cause of condemnation to every person who is lost by His failure to elect and regenerate that person.  You can claim that is within His sovereignty, His supreme authority and control over all things.  But that doesn't change the fact of His causation of condemnation under those doctrines.

Such a failure on God's part is categorically against God's nature, characteristics and attributes.  It runs counter to everything that He is.  Therefore for any passages of Scripture that you think supports either of those doctrines, i.e., Total Depravity and Unconditional Election, it must be that you are considering them in the improper sense; in precisely the opposite to that which you so often quote in Nehemiah 8:8.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 18:43:23 by 4WD »

Offline soterion

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #66 on: Sun Jul 29, 2018 - 20:08:31 »
RB,

Nobody can be born again apart from God's grace and power. John 1:13 simply tells us that nobody can will themselves apart from God or can exercise any power or claim of their own to effect their new birth. According to the previous verse, it takes receiving God (as opposed to rejecting Him). This simply means that those who believe in Him He gave the right to become children of God. Thus, nobody can be born again apart from believing in Him.

God loves all and wants all saved. That is established in Scripture (1 Timothy 2:3-4; 2 Peter 3:9; John 3:16). However, God knows that not all will by faith receive of His grace and so He has established that those who do not believe will be condemned. Thus, mercy is extended to those who believe and He hardens those who defy and disbelieve. It is a mistake to suggest that God hardens people apart from any choice of theirs to disbelieve and disobey and/or that He has mercy on others separate and apart from any faith on their part. Nothing in Romans 9 should be interpreted to disagree with other passages in the Bible that tell us of God's unconditional love of all and His desire for all to be saved.

Also, man's will does not fall outside of God's sovereignty. That man has a choice is due to the grace and sovereignty of God. While a person cannot by the strength of his own mind or body save Himself, neither is he made a child of God apart from any choice on his part to either receive God or reject Him. Jesus did all the work of our salvation. That is what the gospel message is all about. People will either believe it unto salvation or reject it unto condemnation.

Offline RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #67 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 05:29:27 »
The doctrine that is devilish, the doctrine of devils is any doctrine that places the responsibility and blame for lost souls on God.
If a person thoroughly thinks through this doctrine of yours and others, then it is you folks who place the blame on God~for not saving everyone.  Let me explain myself.

Holy men and women of the past including in the scriptures have understood that God created Adam and Eve and then placed them in a PERFECT world with ALL they needed to be happy and contended. He created Adam with perfect wisdom, understanding and in holiness with a FREE WILL, and THEN left him to HIMSELF without securing his glorious state in which God created them both. We all know the sad outcome of our first parents and the BONDAGE in which they fell into by being taken CAPTIVE of Satan to serve him in sin and rebellion against the very God that created them. They became AT ENMITY against God...much worse than an enemy, but one that instantly departed from the presence of God, and hid from him to serve their sinful appetite and their new master~the devil himself.

God did not make Adam sin, nor his wife Eve, they were DECEIVED~first Eve and then Adam quickly followed. God was NOT under obligation to secure their state of living free of sin. There are valuable doctrines to be learned from Genesis 1-5. The main one is this: God ALONE is immutable, and can not be tempted toward evil and neither tempts he any man or angel, even though he has the perfect right NOT to secure them from NOT sinning.

No one can blame God, blame Adam and Eve for sinning. When Adam sinned he LOST his free will and God's image of wisdom, understanding and TRUE holiness, he took on the Devil's image  (spiritually speaking) of ignorance, without understanding, having no light, and this image was PAST DOWN to his posterity per Genesis 5:3! In this respect, Adam was a figure of Christ, being the FEDERAL HEAD of each of their seed, and what one did, it was as though ALL seed did the deeds of their head~the deeds of the head being imputeth to their respective seed~a MOST righteous act of God allowing ADAM to represent his seed in the PERFECT state in which Adam was created. No one can blame God...blame Adam and Eve and THEMSELVES, since none can say I did not follow my father Adam in his rebellion against God for all have and most much more so if not all.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #65 on: Yesterday at 18:38:32
You can claim that is within His sovereignty, His supreme authority and control over all things.  But that doesn't change the fact of His causation of condemnation under those doctrines.
It was his sovereign choice to reject and save whom he would from Adam's fallen race, he was under NO obligation to save any of them, in mercy he purposed to save some (millions upon millions) of them according to his will not based upon any work foreseen, but according to his free mercy. 2nd Timothy 1:9
Quote from: 4WD Reply #65 on: Yesterday at 18:38:32
Such a failure on God's part is categorically against God's nature, characteristics and attributes.  It runs counter to everything that He is.
God did not fail, Adam sinned and fell captive to sin and the devil; and the second Adam SECURED life for those chosen of God and given to him to redeem by his life of perfect faith and obedience. See John 17; Romans 5:12-19, 2nd Corinthians 5:21; Revelation 5:6-14; etc.  This earth is God's stage unfolding every day of his eternal plan for his Son and those given to him by the God the Father.

« Last Edit: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 05:44:08 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #68 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 06:33:55 »
RB, Nobody can be born again apart from God's grace and power. John 1:13 simply tells us that nobody can will themselves apart from God or can exercise any power or claim of their own to effect their new birth.
I may not be able to finish this post, if not, then I'll come later and finish.

I fully agree so far with what you are saying.
Quote from: soterion Reply #65 on: Yesterday at 18:38:32
According to the previous verse, it takes receiving God (as opposed to rejecting Him). This simply means that those who believe in Him He gave the right to become children of God. Thus, nobody can be born again apart from believing in Him.
John 1:12 is not saying what you believe the verse is saying. John 1:13 is a commentary on verse 12.
Quote from: John 1:11,12~
"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"
Jesus came unto his own and his own did not received him. BUT as many as received him to them WERE GIVEN the "POWER" to receive him, even them that believe on his name, which was the evidence that the POWER was given unto them! Verse thirteen explains verse twelve! The power is in the NEW BIRTH, that ALLOWS people to received Christ~without which they would not JUST like his own did not.
Quote from:  Reply #66 on: Yesterday at 20:08:31
Thus, nobody can be born again apart from believing in Him.
That is not what John 1:11-13 is teaching, because no one can believe UNTIL the power/right/authority is freely given to them THROUGH the new birth. Believing is NOT a condition, but an evidence of those born of God. Those who are IN THE FLESH, or not born again CANNOT please God~See Romans 8:7,8.

Later......RB


Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #69 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 07:04:41 »
If a person thoroughly thinks through this doctrine of yours and others, then it is you folks who place the blame on God~for not saving everyone. 
False. I [we] place the blame squarely on the individual.
Quote from: RB
God did not make Adam sin, nor his wife Eve, they were DECEIVED~first Eve and then Adam quickly followed.
True.
Quote from: RB
No one can blame God,
True, But the Calvinist doctrine does.
Quote from: RB
When Adam sinned he LOST his free will and God's image of wisdom, understanding and TRUE holiness, he took on the Devil's image  (spiritually speaking) of ignorance, without understanding, having no light, and this image was PAST DOWN to his posterity per Genesis 5:3!
False Gen 9:6  "........ God made man in his own image.
Quote from: RB
In this respect, Adam was a figure of Christ, being the FEDERAL HEAD of each of their seed, and what one did, it was as though ALL seed did the deeds of their head~the deeds of the head being imputeth to their respective seed~a MOST righteous act of God allowing ADAM to represent his seed in the PERFECT state in which Adam was created.
False.
Quote from: RB
No one can blame God..
True.
Quote from: RB
blame Adam and Eve
False
 
Quote from: RB
none can say I did not follow my father Adam in his rebellion against God for all have and most much more so if not all.
True.  However, that is all rather moot in the Calvinist doctrines since those doctrines proclaim that all are condemned at birth before they have done anything.  So then whether or not they themselves rebelled later in life is all rather beside the point.  One cannot become more lost.
Quote from: RB
he was under NO obligation to save any of them,
True
Quote from: RB
in mercy he purposed to save some (millions upon millions) of them according to his will not based upon any work foreseen, but according to his free mercy.
False.