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Author Topic: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?  (Read 8030 times)

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Offline RB

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Yogi, I moved your post here so you and I can have a freindly debate on what you have posted. If you agree, then I will begin to answer your three posts and give you ample opportunity to reply back, until one is finished. It's so much better one on one than many voices.

Quote from: yogi bear Baptism anew: Re: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #287 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 19:02:22 »
******QUESTION******

First a statement to lead up to the question.

WE have been talking about whether baptism is essential for salvation.  I understand that it is not the baptism per say that does the saving that is defiantly only through Jesus that salvation is granted. The problem I have is even though it is in Jesus I can't feel safe saying that Jesus grants salvation with out baptism.

My reasoning is because scripture clearly teaches that baptism is for the remission of sin and one is instructed to " Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. " so my reasoning is if this is true words then who am I to say that sins can be remitted with out baptism in Christ name? Do I really want to go on record and say that one can be save apart from being baptized in Christ name? That would be to me like saying yes I see where Jesus said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved but I am confident that is not what he meant so it will be okay or me to skip the water and be content with my faith alone.

I hear all the arguments that say it is only mentioned very few times if more than once only but I can't buy into that because I see many scriptures which backs up Acts 2:38 as being written just as it was intended.

Romans 6 can not get any more clear as to what God is doing in baptism in Christ name it clearly teaches that it is there where God transforms us from dead in sin to newly alive in the spirit.

That is not the only scripture that backs up Acts 2:38 we read of Paul's conversion in Acts 22:16 where he said that it was in the baptism in Christ name that his sins was washed away Acts 22:16 (KJV)
16  And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Paul even makes it clear that it was in baptism that we put on Christ (made one with Christ) Galatians 3:27 (KJV)
27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Just a side note here notice in Paul's letter to the Galatians He connects being " children of God by faith in Christ Jesus" it was through baptism in Christ name the caused this adoption.

Galatians 3:26-28 (KJV)
26  For ye are all the Galatians 3:26-28 (KJV)
26  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. .
27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

WE are children of God by faith because we were baptized into Christ

Now if that was not enough of Paul teaching what baptism in Christ name accomplishes see what he told the Colossians

Colossians 2:11-13 (KJV)
11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Here he echos Romans 6 stating that is is in the baptism in Christ name that God remits sin by transforming you from dead in sin to alive in Christ.

Paul does not stop there in making it known that baptism in Christ name as Peter first preached in Acts 2:38 is pretty important. See Acts 19:1-5

Acts 19:1-5 (KJV)
1  And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2  He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3  And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4  Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5  When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Paul makes it clear here that only in the baptism in Christ name does one get the indwelling spirit.

If all that does not say baptism is very important in not essential then my bible is not making itself clear as to just what the baptism in Christ name is all about. I see many scripture backing up the one verse that says baptism is for the remission of sin and receiving of the indwelling spirit. that is the only way I see God telling how one is to receive the remission of sin and to receive the spirit. Sure it may not be said fifty five times but it is addressed in many scriptures backing up each other.

So my question is if baptism is not  essential (I know that it is not the water but what God is doing but it is where God said it will take place) then how do teach one is to receive remission of sin and the indwelling spirit?

Quote from: yogi bear Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #288 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 19:08:58 »
One more clarification, Yes I understand everyone's hypothetical questions as what if but that is not addressed in the word and yes I am sure God will handle all such questions justly but as for studying what is recorded I feel that we have ample record of what is expected of us and we should follow what was recorded and let God handle  hypothetical questions.

Quote from: yogi bear Re: Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #291 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 21:51:41
Just another thought to ponder over.

1 Corinthians 1:17 (KJV)
17  For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

 I hear many use this passage to say that Paul did not preach baptism as did Peter but I think that they miss the meaning of this statement by Paul. I think in context Paul makes it clear that he does teach baptism in Christ name he just does not preform the act but has his brothers in Christ traveling with him to do so as for the reason he said in the scriptures just above this.

1 Corinthians 1:11-16 (KJV)
11  For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12  Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13  Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14  I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15  Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16  And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

In context here we see that they were already thinking the the baptizer was of importance but Paul clears that up quickly and makes the statement that he does not do the baptizing he preaches so as to avoid what is happening here.

Its not that he does not baptize he does just not many for stated reason but he does clearly teach the need and does connect it with the cross which points back to all his teaching in his other writing to the various churches.  Baptism in Christ name is all about what he said in verse 13.


Long story short all the debate on whether baptism in Christ name is part of the gospel Paul teaches is debuted in Paul's own words here and the various letters to the churches where he makes it clear that it is where the cross is connected to it.
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 14, 2018 - 05:00:02 by RB »

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Online yogi bear

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #1 on: Sun Jul 15, 2018 - 14:10:11 »
Red in all due respect I think I will decline your invitation due to the fact that you and I have been over this several time and have gotten no where closer to unity so I do not see the need to engage with you on this again.Thanks for the offer though but we both already know the outcome.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #1 on: Sun Jul 15, 2018 - 14:10:11 »

Offline RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #2 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 03:42:05 »
Red in all due respect I think I will decline your invitation due to the fact that you and I have been over this several time and have gotten no where closer to unity so I do not see the need to engage with you on this again.Thanks for the offer though but we both already know the outcome.
It's NOT for you and me, but for others still seeking the truth. If I took that attitude then I would never post again on many doctrines that are discussed here. I still may address your posts for others.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 03:44:25 by RB »

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #2 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 03:42:05 »

Online yogi bear

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #3 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 08:39:31 »
Go ahead feel free to post what you wish. I posted scriptures backing scripture it can stand for itself. If I added to or took away look them up and see that I did not I copied and pasted from bible app exactly as was worded in the bible. Let the bible do the talking.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 08:42:25 by yogi bear »

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #3 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 08:39:31 »

Offline RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #4 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 13:29:20 »
Go ahead feel free to post what you wish. I posted scriptures backing scripture it can stand for itself. If I added to or took away look them up and see that I did not I copied and pasted from bible app exactly as was worded in the bible.
Posting scriptures word for word, proves not one doctrine without giving them their senses.
Quote from: yogi bear Reply #3 on: Today at 08:39:31
Let the bible do the talking.
What we will do is to let the scriptures intrepret themselves by comparing scriptures with scriptures, line upon line, here little there a little, and then applying their God-given sense.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #4 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 13:29:20 »



Online yogi bear

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #5 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 13:45:31 »
Done posted my thoughts if you have something to add or rebuke go for it if I fill the need I may or may not respond we will just see how this flows.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #5 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 13:45:31 »

Online 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #6 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 14:05:10 »
Posting scriptures word for word, proves not one doctrine without giving them their senses. What we will do is to let the scriptures intrepret themselves by comparing scriptures with scriptures, line upon line, here little there a little, and then applying their God-given sense.
With all due respect, RB, why isn't the God-given sense just like God, through the Holy Spirit, wrote it?  I would think He had enough sense to give it that when He wrote it.  Part of the problem today, it seems to me, is that we have far too many giving the Scriptures a "God-given sense"; except that seems to be wrong a lot.

Offline RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #7 on: Wed Jul 18, 2018 - 04:33:40 »
With all due respect, RB, why isn't the God-given sense just like God, through the Holy Spirit, wrote it?  I would think He had enough sense to give it that when He wrote it.
With the same due respect back toward, I will give you a few reasons why we should do as Ezra did in Nehemiah 8:8 if anyone cares to read it. The problem, of course, is not with God, but fallen humanity's ignorance and being void of true wisdom, understanding, and knowledge of spiritual truth.
Quote
Part of the problem today it seems to me is that we have far too many giving the Scriptures a "God-given sense"; except that seems to be wrong a lot.
"Like yourself"............... When men refuse to accept certain truths and follow certain scriptural rules in order to come to the biblical understanding of certain scriptures, their true biblical sense of interpretation.

I said a week or so in another thread that God owes no man truth, and it met with oppositions to which I let be, but will enlarge upon it now.

1. God Does Not Owe Men the Truth~We chose a lie in Eden against His true word, so He is only giving us what we want when He allows or sends lies (Genesis 2:17; 3:1-6).

The human heart has no truth, and no love for it, for men are born liars (Job 15:14-16; Psalms 51:5; 58:3; Proverbs 22:15; Isaiah 48:8; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:13-14). I did not write those scriptures God gave them, so these are not my thoughts but God's concerning man.

By our corrupt nature, we follow our moral father the devil, who loves lies and the father of it~(John 8:44-45; Ephesians 2:1-3; Ist John 5:19; Revelation 12:9).
Men do not want the truth; they would rather believe a lie (John 8:45).  To believe otherwise is to believe a lie.

It is our incumbent duty to be thankful for any truth, for truth is a gift from God (Genesis 32:10; 24:27; Micah 7:20; 2nd Thessalonians 2:13).

God is truth; and because He is truth, He will not let you despise Him or His truth without judging you in kind (Ist Kings 22:1-40). He sent His prophet Micaiah to lie first to Ahab (22:14-17). He sent a lying spirit into all of Ahab's prophets (22:18-23).

Our glorious Creator deprived the ostrich of wisdom, and He glories in it and expects us to do so as well (Job 39:13-18). Her foolish instincts and lack of understanding are by His holy choice. Your beliefs in evolution will keep you from acknowledging this truth.

A look at the nations shows that God has deprived men of wisdom. Some never had the wheel, a written language, a number system, agricultural knowledge, basic morality, and many other aspects of wisdom, though Noah was the father of us all just a few short years ago.

Consider sailors (Psalm 107:23-32). God commands storms that cause terror and reduce them to their wits' end. It is His goodness that gets them to their desired haven, and He is to be praised for it!

God allowed men to live ignorantly for thousands of years without giving them much more than the natural creation (Deuteronomy 4:5-8; Psalm 19:1-6; Amos 3:2; Acts 14:16; 17:30; Romans 1:18-23).

God can shine the light of truth anywhere, but He chooses not to in the holy exercise of His sovereign power (Psalm 147:19-20; Matthew 10:5-6; 11:20-24; Acts 16:6-10,14; Romans 3:1-2; 2nd Corinthians 4:3-7). When the white horse in Revelation 6 left Jerusalem with the gospel in Acts it went forth conquering and to conquer with the truth~which ways did it go? NOT toward Indian, or China, but toward Greece and Italy from there into Spain and England, etc. God's choice to leave those other nations to themselves, and post Acts up until now we see the effects of that choice!

If acknowledging the truth is only by His gift of repentance, why does He not give it to all (2nd Timothy 2:25-26; 1st Timothy 2:4; Matthew 13:11)?

When His market survey revealed what men wanted to see and hear, He sent them something foolish and offensive (Ist Corinthians 1:17-24; Matthew 12:38-45; Isaiah 8:13-16; Ist Peter 2:6-8). He did not adjust to men and never will.

When eloquence and presentation would win hearts, the apostle of the Gentiles came in fear and weakness (Ist Corinthians 2:1-5; 1:17). His presence was weak; his speech despicable (2nd Corinthians 10:10). Our Lord ordained uneducated, crude fishermen (Acts 4:13).

Does a Creator God, Who laughs at men opposing Him, sound like He owes man (Psalm 2:1-12; Proverbs 1:24-32; Romans 9:14-24; 11:33-36)? I do not think so.

Does our Lord, Who described ripping up Pharisees, Who called those learned doctors of the law blind leaders of the blind, Who desired them and their followers to fall in a ditch, and Who said to leave them alone, sound like He owes them truth (Matt 15:12-14)?

2. God Judges Men by Confusing Them~Later...

« Last Edit: Wed Jul 18, 2018 - 04:45:00 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #8 on: Wed Jul 18, 2018 - 05:40:59 »
 
Quote from: yogi bear Baptism anew: Re: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.
« Reply #287 on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 19:02:22 »

******QUESTION******

First a statement to lead up to the question.

WE have been talking about whether baptism is essential for salvation. 
Yogi, I'm not going over this again, but we have discussed at length that the words save/saved/salvation are used in different senses in the scriptures and very seldom ever used in salvation from sin and condemantion~that being said, it is used in a practical sense the majority of the time which could easily be proven. Your camp always and only apply the words save/saved/salvation to "one sense" which is the root of your heresy.

Now before I start going over your comments (4WD dealing differently with him on another point in this thread) I will say this~God's children have from time to time embraced a heresy, which does not make them unregenerate, yet they need a salvation FROM ERROR of the heresy they have come to believe in~ Much like the Jews of Romans 10, who were born of God, yet had NOT submitted themselves to the righteousness of God, going about to establish their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS being "ignorant"  of God's righteousness which is IN JESUS CHRIST who is the END of the law (any commandment performed by man in order to RECEIVE God's righteousness) FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS. So, do not take my words to mean that I believe you, 4WD and others all ALL lost...... I believe that you need to be saved from your ERROR, NOT SINS and condemnation. I would NEVER waste my time on those who do not love God and his word, NEVER.

Let me move forward and address your points of interest that cause you to believe that in water baptism one's sin is legally forgiven, and without water baptism by immersion, they cannot be born again under the NT.

Later, I'm heading to the hospital for more test this morning from the radiologist ~I missed my coffee this morning must wait until later or tomorrow. Later.....

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #8 on: Wed Jul 18, 2018 - 05:40:59 »

Online 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #9 on: Wed Jul 18, 2018 - 06:22:08 »
With the same due respect back toward, I will give you a few reasons why we should do as Ezra did in Nehemiah 8:8 if anyone cares to read it.
And you think, of course, that you are an Ezra to give the sense of it all.  But then of course we are all Ezras aren't we?
Quote from: RB
"Like yourself"............... When men refuse to accept certain truths and follow certain scriptural rules in order to come to the biblical understanding of certain scriptures, their true biblical sense of interpretation.
Well yes, I include myself in too often failing to read the Bible for what the Bible says.  But I will say again that when one quotes the from God's word, one can truly say "God says", anything else is personal interpretation.  However, simply quoting a verse or two here and there in isolation from the Bible is too often taken out of context and therefore not necessarily what God meant when He said what He said.  Consider,  And I commend joy, for man has no good thing under the sun but to eat and drink and be joyful....(Ecc_8:15), from which comes the '70s hippies' credo of "free love and nickle beer".
Quote from: RB
I said a week or so in another thread that God owes no man truth, and it met with oppositions to which I let be, but will enlarge upon it now.
God owes no man anything.  But that has no relation to what God gives man.
Quote from: RB
1. God Does Not Owe Men the Truth~We chose a lie in Eden against His true word, so He is only giving us what we want when He allows or sends lies (Genesis 2:17; 3:1-6).
No, we chose nothing in Eden.  We weren't there. To think we were is the height of insanity.

Quote from: RB
The human heart has no truth, and no love for it, for men are born liars (Job 15:14-16; Psalms 51:5; 58:3; Proverbs 22:15; Isaiah 48:8; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:13-14). I did not write those scriptures God gave them, so these are not my thoughts but God's concerning man.
No, you did not write those Scriptures but you did pluck them from the context of God's word.  And that is then the sum total of the rest of your post.

And just to be clear here, I have no problem with anyone attempting to substantiate a particular viewpoint by appealing to a verse or a passage; however, in doing so one must always understand that is his viewpoint and not necessarily God's.  You have to only read a couple of posts here in the forum to realize that is the case.  And so one more time I will say that the problem is never what God said, but rather what someone thinks God meant when God said what He said.

Offline RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #10 on: Wed Jul 18, 2018 - 09:28:28 »
And you think, of course, that you are an Ezra to give the sense of it all.  But then of course we are all Ezras aren't we? Well yes, I include myself in too often failing to read the Bible for what the Bible says.
Friend, not only for what it said but by carefully rightly dividing God's precious word.

"Is the Bible an easy book to understand"? It is not for many many reasons.

Many Christians claim to use the Bible for their faith and practice, but they believe all sort of different things that are contrary one to another even on basic points of doctrine. The so-called church fathers are a great example of unbelievable confusion and disunity. Note baptism's mode, subject, purpose result. Note salvation~sacramentalism, Arminianism, Fatalism, etc. Note prophecy~ Preterism, Futurism, Historicism, dates, etc. Note texts~I Cor 11:24; 15:29; Heb 6:4-6; I John 5:7; etc.

Peter wrote that Paul's writings contained things hard to understand, which caused men to wrest them to their own destruction (2nd Peter 3:15-16). If he thought them hard, what of us and much more so the average readers.

The Bible contains many proverbs, parables, and riddles, which are dark and difficult sayings (Proverbs 1:5-6; Matthew 13:10,34-35; John 16:25,29; Ezekiel 12:22-23; 17:2). You know of the numberous riddles and parables that I need not to mention them.


Why did the Lord put seven verses in the Bible that surely sound like baptism saves us, though it does not legally(~Mark 16:16; John 3:5; Acts 2:38; 22:16; Ist Corinthians 15:29; Galatians 3:27; Ist Peter 3:21)?

Why did the Lord put at least nine verses in the Bible that sound like we can lose salvation, though we cannot legally(~Matthew 12:31; 24:13; Galatians 4:5; Colossians 1:23; Hebrews 3:6; 6:4-6; 10:26-31; Revelation 3:5; 22:19)?

Why did the Lord hide the five phases of salvation? Why did He not lay it out plainly like a handbook? By using words and concepts of salvation loosely, there is much confusion of the doctrine of our own redemption. Are there differences between Prov 23:14; Matt 1:21; I Cor 15:2; Titus 3:5; and Rom 13:11?

Did He know Mormons would stumble over Ist Corinthians 15:29? William Miller over Daniel 8:14? Arminians over John 3:16? Charismatics over Acts 2:17? Catholics over John 6:53-61? JWs over Matthew 5:33-37? Primitives Baptist over Daniel 3:25; John 13:1-17; Acts 18:1-3?

Numerous "contradictions" lead many to deny the integrity of the Bible. There are internal differences that require extensive study to resolve satisfactorily. But they may lead to precious truth, as with Ahaziah's age (2nd Kings 8:26; 2nd Chron 22:2; Matthew 1:8).

If the Bible were easy to understand, then it would only take reading it to know the truth. But God must send gifted and called men to study it and give the right sense (Ezra 7:6; Nehemiah 8:8; Malachi 2:7; Ist Timothy 4:13-16; 2nd Timothy 2:2; 3:16-17; 4:1-2; Titus 1:9-11).

The first rule of Bible interpretation causes many to quit because they do not want to read the whole thing (2nd Peter 1:20). Another one not much easier, comparing scripture with scripture (Ist Corinthians 2:13).

All of us must rightly divide the scriptures or be shamed (2nd Timothy 2:15). There are many words and concepts that must be divided, separated, and pulled apart, which appear similar. This rule crushes the practice of quoting mere sound bites from various versions.

The truth of the gospel is a mystery and a great mystery, which can only be revealed by faithful men to faithful men.
 
Why did God use the pronoun he in Daniel 9:27, when He knew that unbelieving men would grab Titus the prince from 9:26 as the antecedent, rather than Messiah the Prince from 9:25-26?

Everyone claims to use the Bible for their faith and practice, but they end up believing all sort of different things that are contrary one to another even on basic points of doctrine.

Satan quoted scripture perfectly … but out of contextapplied it wrongly … and overlooked verses that limited it (Matthew 4:5-6). But our Lord quoted other scripture to correct his abuse of the Bible and set the matter straight (Matthew 4:7). Such misuse of scripture by those deceived by the devil continues to be popular.
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 18, 2018 - 09:33:46 by RB »

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #11 on: Wed Jul 18, 2018 - 09:51:20 »
Why did the Lord put seven verses in the Bible that surely sound like baptism saves us, though it does not legally(~Mark 16:16; John 3:5; Acts 2:38; 22:16; Ist Corinthians 15:29; Galatians 3:27; Ist Peter 3:21)?
If there is legal salvation, what then is illegal salvation? 

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #12 on: Wed Jul 18, 2018 - 22:31:47 »

I said a week or so in another thread that God owes no man truth, and it met with oppositions to which I let be, but will enlarge upon it now.

1. God Does Not Owe Men the Truth~We chose a lie in Eden against His true word, so He is only giving us what we want when He allows or sends lies (Genesis 2:17; 3:1-6).

The human heart has no truth, and no love for it, for men are born liars (Job 15:14-16; Psalms 51:5; 58:3; Proverbs 22:15; Isaiah 48:8; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:13-14). I did not write those scriptures God gave them, so these are not my thoughts but God's concerning man.

By our corrupt nature, we follow our moral father the devil, who loves lies and the father of it~(John 8:44-45; Ephesians 2:1-3; Ist John 5:19; Revelation 12:9).
Men do not want the truth; they would rather believe a lie (John 8:45).  To believe otherwise is to believe a lie.

It is our incumbent duty to be thankful for any truth, for truth is a gift from God (Genesis 32:10; 24:27; Micah 7:20; 2nd Thessalonians 2:13).

God is truth; and because He is truth, He will not let you despise Him or His truth without judging you in kind (Ist Kings 22:1-40). He sent His prophet Micaiah to lie first to Ahab (22:14-17). He sent a lying spirit into all of Ahab's prophets (22:18-23).

Our glorious Creator deprived the ostrich of wisdom, and He glories in it and expects us to do so as well (Job 39:13-18). Her foolish instincts and lack of understanding are by His holy choice. Your beliefs in evolution will keep you from acknowledging this truth.

A look at the nations shows that God has deprived men of wisdom. Some never had the wheel, a written language, a number system, agricultural knowledge, basic morality, and many other aspects of wisdom, though Noah was the father of us all just a few short years ago.

Consider sailors (Psalm 107:23-32). God commands storms that cause terror and reduce them to their wits' end. It is His goodness that gets them to their desired haven, and He is to be praised for it!

God allowed men to live ignorantly for thousands of years without giving them much more than the natural creation (Deuteronomy 4:5-8; Psalm 19:1-6; Amos 3:2; Acts 14:16; 17:30; Romans 1:18-23).

God can shine the light of truth anywhere, but He chooses not to in the holy exercise of His sovereign power (Psalm 147:19-20; Matthew 10:5-6; 11:20-24; Acts 16:6-10,14; Romans 3:1-2; 2nd Corinthians 4:3-7). When the white horse in Revelation 6 left Jerusalem with the gospel in Acts it went forth conquering and to conquer with the truth~which ways did it go? NOT toward Indian, or China, but toward Greece and Italy from there into Spain and England, etc. God's choice to leave those other nations to themselves, and post Acts up until now we see the effects of that choice!

If acknowledging the truth is only by His gift of repentance, why does He not give it to all (2nd Timothy 2:25-26; 1st Timothy 2:4; Matthew 13:11)?

When His market survey revealed what men wanted to see and hear, He sent them something foolish and offensive (Ist Corinthians 1:17-24; Matthew 12:38-45; Isaiah 8:13-16; Ist Peter 2:6-8). He did not adjust to men and never will.

When eloquence and presentation would win hearts, the apostle of the Gentiles came in fear and weakness (Ist Corinthians 2:1-5; 1:17). His presence was weak; his speech despicable (2nd Corinthians 10:10). Our Lord ordained uneducated, crude fishermen (Acts 4:13).

Does a Creator God, Who laughs at men opposing Him, sound like He owes man (Psalm 2:1-12; Proverbs 1:24-32; Romans 9:14-24; 11:33-36)? I do not think so.

Does our Lord, Who described ripping up Pharisees, Who called those learned doctors of the law blind leaders of the blind, Who desired them and their followers to fall in a ditch, and Who said to leave them alone, sound like He owes them truth (Matt 15:12-14)?

2. God Judges Men by Confusing Them~Later...

To me this is such a sad commentary, not because it reflects the truth about man and how God regards man, but because such a narrowly negative perspective is being presented, as if it reflects the whole of God's view of man and how He deals with man.

Of course, you present this dismal picture of man and God because you start off with the premise that man is inherently evil and corrupt and God looks at man as such. I start off with the opposite view, that God loves man despite any and all of our individual failures, and He devised from the beginning the intention to save man out of the depths of His love. God planned and put into motion throughout all history, from the beginning, our salvation in Christ.

To say that God does not owe His saving truth to any man reflects a somewhat nihilistic attitude toward God's intention and dealings with man. I say that because God will honor Himself and His word, and He has made promises from the beginning. God is faithful and to say He owes not unto any man is like saying He does not have to be faithful to His promises. Also, God created man and God loves man, so much so that He willingly died on the cross for man. You can say that He owes no man, but He has placed such a tremendous value on us that, as far as I am concerned, He has obligated Himself to us to the fullest extent.

Offline RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #13 on: Thu Jul 19, 2018 - 04:33:11 »
To say that God does not owe His saving truth to any man reflects a somewhat nihilistic attitude toward God's intention and dealings with man.
So it was you that that said this in another thread.

Sir, it is NOT ME but what the scriptures said of a man in his natural state, one that you refuse to accept from God's testimony.
Quote from: soterion Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 22:31:47
To me this is such a sad commentary, not because it reflects the truth about man and how God regards man, but because such a narrowly negative perspective is being presented, as if it reflects the whole of God's view of man and how He deals with man.
Again it is your low esteem of God's righteousness and his hatred toward sin that is the real sad commentary.
Quote from: soterion Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 22:31:47
Of course, you present this dismal picture of man and God because you start off with the premise that man is inherently evil and corrupt and God looks at man as such. I start off with the opposite view,
On this saying you are 100% correct. Again, man's dismal state is not what I have created in my mind but just following what God said of a man in his fallen state from birth. Jesus never committed himself to man because he knew what the scriptures said of the man in his natural state, of being at enmity against a righteous and loving God!
Quote from: John
John 2:24,25~"But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man man."
Now, I could spend a lot of time on this one verse, yet you will reject it because you think a man is a creature worthy to praise, trusted, adorned and worship~he is anything but that in his natural state, and apart from the grace of God, and being clothed with the righteousness of the Son of God.
Quote from: soterion Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 22:31:47
To say that God does not owe His saving truth to any man reflects a somewhat nihilistic attitude toward God's intention and dealings with man.
Sir, there is NOT ONE THING in man that deserves God's love and certainly not anything that demands that God give him his truth~if you think otherwise, then you have a high opinion of the man and a low opinion of God~at least much lower than you should have.
Quote from: soterion Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 22:31:47
I say that because God will honor Himself and His word, and He has made promises from the beginning
ALL of his promises are to the seed of Jesus Christ, NONE to them outside of Jesus Christ. The way one is IN CHRIST is NOT through water baptism as you believe and others like you~but through God's election of GRACE.
Quote from: Paul
Ephesians 1:3-5~"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"
When Jesus was conceived in the womb of Mary, his spiritual chosen seed where form IN HIM and legally were considered IN HIM from that point FORWARD world without end.
Quote from: David (BUT a GREATER than DAVID)
Psalm 139:13-17~"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!"
These scriptures are speaking of Christ and "the members" of his spiritual body, the children of God's promises. To these children, God is FAITHFUL and will not suffer one of them to be lost and perish in the lake of fire.
Quote from: soterion Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 22:31:47
Also, God created man and God loves man, so much so that He willingly died on the cross for man. You can say that He owes no man, but He has placed such a tremendous value on us that, as far as I am concerned, He has obligated Himself to us to the fullest extent.
He created man, yes, but that does not translate to loving all man, he does love all men without distinction, but not all men without exception. Did God love the Egyptians as he loved Israel? If he did, then he had a strange way of proving it by drowning them in the Red Sea, just before he took their wheels off of their chariots so they could not return back to dry land! You do not want to go there for there are many scriptures you cannot answer in support of your false view of God.

What do you think of the song of Moses AFTER God destroyed Pharaoh and his host?
Quote from: Moses the servant of God
Exdous 15:1-21~"Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him. The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea. The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone. Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy. And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble. And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea. The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them. Thou didst blow with thy wind, the sea covered them: they sank as lead in the mighty waters. Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders? Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them. Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation. The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina. Then the dukes of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away. Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O LORD, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased.Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O LORD, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O Lord, which thy hands have established. The LORD shall reign for ever and ever. For the horse of Pharaoh went in with his chariots and with his horsemen into the sea, and the LORD brought again the waters of the sea upon them; but the children of Israel went on dry land in the midst of the sea. And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances. And Miriam answered them, Sing ye to the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea."
Could you truly sing this song with your beliefs? I think not~but, it does not stop here......
Quote from: John
Revelation chapter fifteen~"And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."
You might want to learn this song that shall be sung in that day!
« Last Edit: Thu Jul 19, 2018 - 04:48:52 by RB »

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #14 on: Thu Jul 19, 2018 - 04:45:17 »
If there is legal salvation, what then is illegal salvation?
It is water baptism that legally saves one from sin and condemnation would be the one that God would call illegal. Baptism saves for sure (Mark 16:16), but only in a practical sense, in granting those that are baptized into the religion of Jesus Christ a fuller understanding of gospel truths that those not baptized into Christ could ever possess and enjoy.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #15 on: Thu Jul 19, 2018 - 06:09:42 »
It is water baptism that legally saves one from sin and condemnation would be the one that God would call illegal. Baptism saves for sure (Mark 16:16), but only in a practical sense, in granting those that are baptized into the religion of Jesus Christ a fuller understanding of gospel truths that those not baptized into Christ could ever possess and enjoy.
That would be hilarious were it not for the fact that you actually believe what you wrote there.  As it is, it is truly a sad day when anyone can read the Bible, particularly the NT, and hold to such a distorted and corrupt view of God the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit and the Gospel.  But again, it comes, apparently, from the fundamentally flawed concept of total depravity, and thus the equally flawed notions of unconditional election and limited atonement. 

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #16 on: Thu Jul 19, 2018 - 06:34:56 »
Also, God created man and God loves man, so much so that He willingly died on the cross for man. You can say that He owes no man, but He has placed such a tremendous value on us that, as far as I am concerned, He has obligated Himself to us to the fullest extent.
He created man, yes, but that does not translate to loving all man, he does love all men without distinction, but not all men without exception. Did God love the Egyptians as he loved Israel? If he did, then he had a strange way of proving it by drowning them in the Red Sea, just before he took their wheels off of their chariots so they could not return back to dry land!
If that is your criterion for God's loving man, then He must have really despised His own Son Jesus whose death on the cross was far worse than simple drowning in the Red Sea.  And of course God must have really had it in for the Apostles of Jesus, nearly all of whom died horribly in martyrdom for the cause of Christ and His Gospel.

We read of Hitler's view of the German soldier in WWII as being nothing but cannon fodder for his insatiable appetite to take control of the whole of Europe and more.  He refused many times to let them surrender in the face of certain defeat and instead wasted their lives simply to slow the enemy's sure advance. In the end, he conscripted even the very young boys and very old men into service in a fight that they could not possibly win.  But that pales in comparison to the view you present for God's view of man.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #17 on: Thu Jul 19, 2018 - 07:32:28 »
So it was you that that said this in another thread.

Sir, it is NOT ME but what the scriptures said of a man in his natural state, one that you refuse to accept from God's testimony. Again it is your low esteem of God's righteousness and his hatred toward sin that is the real sad commentary.


Rather, God's righteousness and His love is how He chose to deal with man's sin in Jesus Christ. He planned it all out from the beginning and worked it all out through history to the cross. The cross demonstrates how much He hates sin and how much He loves mankind.

Quote

Jesus never committed himself to man because he knew what the scriptures said of the man in his natural state, of being at enmity against a righteous and loving God! Now, I could spend a lot of time on this one verse, yet you will reject it because you think a man is a creature worthy to praise, trusted, adorned and worship~


Worthy of praise, etc? Epic straw man. How you got any of this from what I had posted, I'll never understand.

I will say that God regards man as worthy of saving. If not, there would be no salvation.

Quote

Sir, there is NOT ONE THING in man that deserves God's love and certainly not anything that demands that God give him his truth~if you think otherwise, then you have a high opinion of the man and a low opinion of God~at least much lower than you should have.


And yet, God in His righteousness sent Jesus to the cross, in keeping with His love and faithfulness toward man. His love and faithfulness obligates Himself towards man. We may not deserve it, that I agree, but God considers us to have great value, to have that worth, and the cross reveals the value He places on us.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #18 on: Fri Jul 20, 2018 - 23:38:53 »
Will God who is Love destroy those whom he created so those who love him will remain. What is love

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #19 on: Fri Jul 20, 2018 - 23:56:57 »
Exodus 15:3 King James Version (KJV)

3 The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #20 on: Sat Jul 21, 2018 - 00:59:21 »
If i look at the animal Kingdom and thay have  done nothing wrong , and consider there life or really there death and consider that is so shocking. Our God who has allowed those who live and only can live by devouring the life of another. Its barbaric and it is Gods way.

The dogs of Africa down a prey and eat it alive from  the anus up, ripping it apart slowly still alive.  Its a sad thing to watch but without it they would die. How can I confront God and say life’s not fair And why have you allowed it this way. What are you saying to us in this bloodbath?

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #21 on: Sat Jul 21, 2018 - 03:17:42 »
That would be hilarious were it not for the fact that you actually believe what you wrote there.
Why would I not believe what is clearly the true doctrine of God according to his testimony? Water baptism does not "legally" saves us from sin and condemantion, that is another gospel that if Paul were here today, instead of confronting the circumcision, he would be confronting spirits like you, sir. Philippians 3:1-9~is clearly speaking of people like you, certainly NOT anyone who exalts JESUS CHRIST and his faith/obedience/righteousness.
Quote from: Paul
Philippians 3:1-9~"Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have have no confidence in the flesh confidence in the flesh. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness which is of the law,,  but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Your righteousness before God, is depending on the confidence you and others put in your flesh which confidence comes from the law (the law of YOU OBEYING... it's your obedience), which said "THIS DO and live, reject and die in your sins"~ours comes from Jesus' perfect life of faith and obedience. If Paul refused to put any confidence in his pedigree, who are we to put any in ourselves?
Quote from: 4WD Reply #15 on: Thu Jul 19, 2018 - 06:09:42
As it is, it is truly a sad day when anyone can read the Bible, particularly the NT
Sir, AGAIN, Abraham became a child of God in the VERY SAME MANNER as all of his children/spiritual seed! That's part of your great error in the doctrine of soteriology~ But you are not alone in this great error.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #15 on: Thu Jul 19, 2018 - 06:09:42
But again, it comes, apparently, from the fundamentally flawed concept of total depravity, and thus the equally flawed notions of unconditional election and limited atonement.
Sir, the very same thing can be turned against you, and be pointed out that your error rest in you rejecting man's total depravity and the doctrine of unconditional election of grace, putting you into the camp that believes in WORKS from the sinner whom God said is at enmity against him and WITHOUT any spiritual strength. Yes, I added spiritual, for it certainly can not mean physical!

In closing this post, let me bring to your memory that in all the years I have debated your side, NOT ONCE has anyone who believes that water baptism is the means of one having their sins legally forgiven has ever used such scriptures as Philippians 3:1-9 against me and my doctrine of free grace in opposition to their gospel of MAN performing certain acts of obedience BEFORE his sins can be forgiven, NOT once...wonder why? I KNOW, do you?
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 21, 2018 - 03:29:02 by RB »

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #22 on: Sat Jul 21, 2018 - 09:34:59 »
In closing this post, let me bring to your memory that in all the years I have debated your side, NOT ONCE has anyone who believes that water baptism is the means of one having their sins legally forgiven has ever used such scriptures as Philippians 3:1-9 against me and my doctrine of free grace in opposition to their gospel of MAN performing certain acts of obedience BEFORE his sins can be forgiven, NOT once...wonder why? I KNOW, do you?
It is probably because they, unlike you, actually know and understand what Paul was talking about in Philippians 3:1-9.

NASB Php 3:9  and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

ASV Php 3:9  and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:

ESV Php 3:9  and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith--

NIV Php 3:9  and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.

NKJV Php 3:9  and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

RV Php 3:9  and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

NirV Php 3:9  I want to be joined to him. For me, being right with God does not come from the law. It comes because I believe in Christ. It comes from God. It is received by faith.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #23 on: Sun Jul 22, 2018 - 08:45:50 »
"Baptism saves for sure (Mark 16:16), but only in a practical sense, in granting those that are baptized into the religion of Jesus Christ a fuller understanding of gospel truths that those not baptized into Christ could ever possess and enjoy."

I'm not familiar with this idea of being "baptized into the religion of Jesus Christ."  Is there a passage that addresses this? Is that the same thing as being "baptized into Christ?"

RC

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #24 on: Fri Jul 27, 2018 - 03:23:20 »
"Baptism saves for sure (Mark 16:16), but only in a practical sense, in granting those that are baptized into the religion of Jesus Christ a fuller understanding of gospel truths that those not baptized into Christ could ever possess and enjoy."

I'm not familiar with this idea of being "baptized into the religion of Jesus Christ."  Is there a passage that addresses this? Is that the same thing as being "baptized into Christ?"
RC
It is the same, and the only sense that will fit with Galatians 3:27 and Romans 6:3. Baptism is our answer to God of a good consience and before others that we believe in Jesus Christ and desire to follow him and his teachings as our faith to live by. When we are baptized by our act of faith at that moment we publicly PUT ON CHRIST and his teachings as our religion of choice among the many false cults in Mystery Babylon.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #25 on: Fri Jul 27, 2018 - 03:59:13 »
It is probably because they, unlike you, actually know and understand what Paul was talking about in Philippians 3:1-9.
All the versions you quoted from were FALSE translations because EACH of them removed the faith "OF" Christ which is the VERY HEART of the doctrine of the gospel of Jesus Christ. IN three main parts of the NT written by Paul in EACH section he CAREFULLY worded his words to teach that justification from sin and condemnation is by the faith OF Jesus Christ that he had as a MAN~Jesus, the son of David. You refuse to accept this all-important doctrine, without which you have NO Gospel to present to saints as a source of comfort.
Quote from: Paul in his doctrine
Romans 3:21,22~"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"
The righteousness of God that HE PROVIDED for his people was OBTAINED by the faith OF Jesus Christ~it's not that hard to understand, yet it strips man of ANY glorying thinking that God's righteousness is received by HIS FAITH, in Jesus, leaving Jesus as co=partner AT BEST in man's salvation! Galatians 2:16 my favorite passage dealing with this very subject again Paul clearly said that we are justified by the faith OF Jesus Christ.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 2:16,17~"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith "OF" Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith "OF" Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
All the false versions that you presented has Paul and the Holy Ghost through him using redundancy in his writings! Also, verse 17 proves what 16  of Galatians 2 is referring to when Paul added:
Quote
while we seek to be justified by Christ
Believers seek to be justified BY CHRIST"S faith/obedience/righteousness. God righteousness that HE PROVIDED is in Jesus' faith, which includes his obedience, etc.

You work hard laboring to destroy the truth of the gospel, that the righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel in the life of FAITH of the Son of God, and his death, and resurrection, the ONLY righteousness that secures eternal life for anyone. Your rejection of this puts you on dangerous grounds!

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #26 on: Fri Jul 27, 2018 - 07:01:32 »
All the versions you quoted from were FALSE translations because EACH of them removed the faith "OF" Christ which is the VERY HEART of the doctrine of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I find it interesting that neither Adam Clark nor John Gill agree with you on your interpretation of the meaning of  διὰ πίστεως ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ, in Galatians 2:16. And they are both adherents to the Calvinist theology.  On the other hand there are some non-Calvinists who do hold to the words in Galatians 2:16 to be "faith of Christ"; but in doing so they interpret it in the same way as they interpret "faith of God" in KJV Romans 3:3.  In Romans 3:3 it is clearly not God's belief/faith; rather it is God's faithfulness.  In Galatians 2:16 therefore some conceding to the words "faith of Christ" as in the KJV interpret it as the "Jesus' faithfulness", not Jesus ' belief/faith.

revc

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #27 on: Fri Jul 27, 2018 - 07:11:38 »
"Galatians 2:16 my favorite passage dealing with this very subject again Paul clearly said that we are justified by the faith OF Jesus Christ.
Quote from: Paul

    Galatians 2:16,17~"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith "OF" Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith "OF" Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid."

RB, can you explain the genitive in this passage and what linguistic justification there is for your apparent desire to change an objective genitive into a genitive of possession?

RC

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #28 on: Fri Jul 27, 2018 - 09:57:29 »
I find it interesting that neither Adam Clark nor John Gill agree with you on your interpretation of the meaning of  διὰ πίστεως ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ, in Galatians 2:16. And they are both adherents to the Calvinist theology.  On the other hand there are some non-Calvinists who do hold to the words in Galatians 2:16 to be "faith of Christ"; but in doing so they interpret it in the same way as they interpret "faith of God" in KJV Romans 3:3.  In Romans 3:3 it is clearly not God's belief/faith; rather it is God's faithfulness.  In Galatians 2:16 therefore some conceding to the words "faith of Christ" as in the KJV interpret it as the "Jesus' faithfulness", not Jesus ' belief/faith.
Hi; I think the grammatical term in the Greek there is the objective genitive.

revc

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #29 on: Fri Jul 27, 2018 - 14:29:40 »
"Quote from: 4WD on Today at 07:01:32

    I find it interesting that neither Adam Clark nor John Gill agree with you on your interpretation of the meaning of  διὰ πίστεως ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ, in Galatians 2:16. And they are both adherents to the Calvinist theology.  On the other hand there are some non-Calvinists who do hold to the words in Galatians 2:16 to be "faith of Christ"; but in doing so they interpret it in the same way as they interpret "faith of God" in KJV Romans 3:3.  In Romans 3:3 it is clearly not God's belief/faith; rather it is God's faithfulness.  In Galatians 2:16 therefore some conceding to the words "faith of Christ" as in the KJV interpret it as the "Jesus' faithfulness", not Jesus ' belief/faith.

Hi; I think the grammatical term in the Greek there is the objective genitive."

Yes, it is.  The same use is found in Romans 3:22.  It is not the faith OF Christ, subjective use of the genitive (possession), it is objective, meaning that our faith has as its object Jesus Christ.  The proper translation is "faith in Christ."

RC

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #30 on: Fri Jul 27, 2018 - 19:30:29 »
"Quote from: 4WD on Today at 07:01:32

    I find it interesting that neither Adam Clark nor John Gill agree with you on your interpretation of the meaning of  διὰ πίστεως ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ, in Galatians 2:16. And they are both adherents to the Calvinist theology.  On the other hand there are some non-Calvinists who do hold to the words in Galatians 2:16 to be "faith of Christ"; but in doing so they interpret it in the same way as they interpret "faith of God" in KJV Romans 3:3.  In Romans 3:3 it is clearly not God's belief/faith; rather it is God's faithfulness.  In Galatians 2:16 therefore some conceding to the words "faith of Christ" as in the KJV interpret it as the "Jesus' faithfulness", not Jesus ' belief/faith.

Hi; I think the grammatical term in the Greek there is the objective genitive."

Yes, it is.  The same use is found in Romans 3:22.  It is not the faith OF Christ, subjective use of the genitive (possession), it is objective, meaning that our faith has as its object Jesus Christ.  The proper translation is "faith in Christ."

RC
This is my understanding, yes.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #31 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 04:05:24 »
I find it interesting that neither Adam Clark nor John Gill agree with you on your interpretation of the meaning of  διὰ πίστεως ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ, in Galatians 2:16. And they are both adherents to the Calvinist theology.
Adam Clark was NOT a Calvinist but a Methodist, even though I respect him especially on his understanding of the Sonship of Jesus Christ, he's one of the best. I enjoy Gill, but when it comes to the scriptures I adhere to them over any man, and I refuse to allow men to tell me that the verse I'm reading in my bible (KJV, one of the oldest translation in our language) is wrong, even more so, when the truth of the gospel itself DEMANDS that God's righteousness is revealed in the gospel BY the LIFE and death and resurrection of Jesus Christ ESPECIALLY SO HIS LIFE, of perfect faith and obedience without which his death would have been in vain and he would not have been risen from the dead by the power God.
Quote from: 4WD  Reply #26 on: Yesterday at 07:01:32
On the other hand there are some non-Calvinists who do hold to the words in Galatians 2:16 to be "faith of Christ"; but in doing so they interpret it in the same way as they interpret "faith of God" in KJV Romans 3:3.  In Romans 3:3 it is clearly not God's belief/faith;
Again, I care less what man teaches, and neither should you~Paul certainly did not care in Galatians two when he boldly rebukes Peter and even watch Barnabas being carried away with their dissimulation, and stood ALONE the defended the purity of Jesus' gospel, that is based upon his LIFE of faith and obedience.

Your overall teachings on other points prove your gospel has for its foundation MAN doing this or that before he can be born of the Spirit of God and MUST continue doing works in order to secure eternal life for himself!  So, no surprise that you and others would fight this important truth.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #26 on: Yesterday at 07:01:32
In Galatians 2:16 therefore some conceding to the words "faith of Christ" as in the KJV interpret it as the "Jesus' faithfulness", not Jesus ' belief/faith.
Wait just a minute...what TRULY is the difference....faithfulness by anyone is performed by FAITH.  Jesus Christ is the ONLY man that has lived in this world who lived a life of PERFECT FAITH/OBEIDENCE/ PERFECT FAITHFULNESS in every act of THOUGHTS, WORDS, and DEEDS! This made him the perfect SURETY for his chosen seed. He truly was a lamb without spot or blemish! Selah

You guys keep trusting in your works of faith, repentance, baptism, doing this or doing that believing this will be your meal ticket into eternal life may very well be the very means of some hearing Jesus saying depart from me...............as they begin to say Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in thy name, and in thy name cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Even though I think these words fit the prosperity preachers much more than people like you, yet, I would not want to leave this world trusting in MY WORKS, as though they were the means of me being born of God, and robbing Christ of his glory and honor due ONLY to him. 

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #32 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 04:29:05 »
This is my understanding, yes.
Then your understanding is not according to Paul's teaching concerning the gospel of the grace where eternal life is imputeth to one's account on the behalf of Jesus Christ's perfect life of obedience.
Quote from: Paul's gospel
Romans 5:19~"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
By Adam's ONE disobedience many (MULTITUDES OF BILLIONS) were made sinners~"SO" in like manner......by Jesus' obedience many are made righteous......"And they blessed Rebekah, and said unto her, Thou art our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of millions, and let thy seed possess the gate of those which hate them. Genesis 24:60.

In the gospel of Jesus Christ, it is NOT revealed that man can have faith simply by trying to convince him to believe and for him to turn from his own way and God will give him the eternal life as MAN vainly teaches and trust in as their gospel. 

In the gospel of Jesus Christ, this glorious gospel reveals from a person who HAS faith to another person WHO HAS FAITH God's FAITHFULNESS in securing eternal life for his chosen people given TO CHRIST to redeem. Help was laid ON CHRIST, for man was WITHOUT strength and in bondage to sin and Satan, and so in loved to this bondage that ONLY the power of God could enter in and overcome Satan to take from him the captives he had taken when Adam and Eve sinned.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #33 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 06:34:46 »
Then your understanding is not according to Paul's teaching concerning the gospel of the grace where eternal life is imputeth to one's account on the behalf of Jesus Christ's perfect life of obedience. By Adam's ONE disobedience many (MULTITUDES OF BILLIONS) were made sinners~"SO" in like manner......by Jesus' obedience many are made righteous......"And they blessed Rebekah, and said unto her, Thou art our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of millions, and let thy seed possess the gate of those which hate them. Genesis 24:60.

In the gospel of Jesus Christ, it is NOT revealed that man can have faith simply by trying to convince him to believe and for him to turn from his own way and God will give him the eternal life as MAN vainly teaches and trust in as their gospel. 

In the gospel of Jesus Christ, this glorious gospel reveals from a person who HAS faith to another person WHO HAS FAITH God's FAITHFULNESS in securing eternal life for his chosen people given TO CHRIST to redeem. Help was laid ON CHRIST, for man was WITHOUT strength and in bondage to sin and Satan, and so in loved to this bondage that ONLY the power of God could enter in and overcome Satan to take from him the captives he had taken when Adam and Eve sinned.
Interesting; so how does what I said contradict what you are saying?

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #34 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 07:02:06 »
Wait just a minute...what TRULY is the difference....faithfulness by anyone is performed by FAITH.
So when the Bible speaks of God being faithful or speaks of His faithfulness, that means that God believes, that God has faith; that He does what He does by faith? What does God have faith in?  What is it that God does not know and in which He can only believe and trust.  What did Jesus not know that He could only believe in and trust in; i.e., have faith. Did He not really know that He was the Son of God?  Was that something that He could only believe?
Quote from: RB
You guys keep trusting in your works of faith, repentance, baptism, doing this or doing that believing this will be your meal ticket into eternal life ........
No, I keep trusting in God, His word and His  promises. You keep trusting in Calvin, not God.  You keep believing that God created mankind primarily as fodder for the fire of hell, picking only a few that He will not throw into the flames.

You speak of robbing Jesus of His glory and honor, but very little robs God and Jesus of Their glory and honor more than believing in total depravity, unconditional election and limited atonement.

By the way, I didn't say that either Clark of Gill were Calvinists; only that they both were adherents to Calvinist theology even if Clark did/does so less than Gill.  I think that you, yourself, have denied being a Calvinist, even though admitting that you hold to much of the theology of Calvinism.
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 07:14:22 by 4WD »