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Author Topic: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?  (Read 8062 times)

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Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #105 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 13:03:22 »
The types of those god hates for sure:

Prov. 6:10 Yet a little sleep, a little slumber,
        a little folding of the hands to sleep:
Prov. 6:11 So shall thy poverty come as one that travelleth,
        and thy want as an armed man.
Prov. 6:12 A naughty person,
        a wicked man,
        walketh with a froward mouth.
Prov. 6:13 He winketh with his eyes,
         he speaketh with his feet,
         he teacheth with his fingers;
Prov. 6:14 Frowardness is in his heart,
        he deviseth mischief continually;
        he soweth discord.
Prov. 6:15 Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly;
        suddenly shall he be broken without remedy.
Prov. 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate:
        yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Prov. 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue,
        and hands that shed innocent blood,
Prov. 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations,
        feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Prov. 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies,
        and he that soweth discord among brethren.
 

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #105 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 13:03:22 »

Offline RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #106 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 14:50:31 »
That is established in Scripture (1 Timothy 2:3-4; 2 Peter 3:9; John 3:16).
So, your understanding that God loves all without exception, and desires all be be saved, without exception is proven by these such scriptures?

I will not accuse you of cherry-picking as you did to me in your last post, (which post I will address when I come to it) but will say that you are badly deceived and have fallen, victim to sound bites that the all-wise God put in his words for men like you who refuse his word for their precious bias and church affiliation that they have been deceived by, and refuse to receive his testimony above the wisdom of man. In order let us look at your scriptures that you provided to support that God loves all without exception.
Quote from: John the Apostle
John 3:16~"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
You can take this verse and present it to a man of the world that has never read the first sentence of the Holy scriptures and ask him what does this scripture say, and he would say just what you think it is saying. Context drives one's interpretation~context is Lord and Master of our understanding of what we are reading seeking to understand, especially so is this true of God's word.

It is not difficult to understand what Jesus is teaching Nicodemus~a ruler and master in Israel, part of the Sanhedrin. Up until the time of Christ, God was the God of the Jews only~he chose them above all people of the earth and left others to themselves to walk in the blindness and darkness of their heart to serve others gods.  To Israel ALONE pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; from who the great men of the OT came from, and concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. God did not choose them for no other reason then he WILLED to love them ABOVE all the people of the earth, people that were greater in number, and in every way you could think of...Israel was a nobody in comparison with the Egyptians, and others and others as well.  You know the story just do not want to accept the truth of it.

Jesus speaking to Nicodemus is making a hidden mystery known to him, (and to US) one that was in their scriptures, but hidden, that God's love was now going to be shown to ALL THE WORLD, and no longer limited to the nation of the Jews~they were ONLY a type of greater things to come.

The sense in which we are to understand John 3:16 is this: God loves ALL without DISTINCTION, not all without exception that folk like you want to believe in. I have scriptures supporting my understanding and you folks have NONE, but many against what you DESIRE to believe in order to give your false position some support, but it will not stand. Listen to the JEWISH apostle interpret the scriptures for us.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 3:29~Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:"
In the OT, God was the God of the Jews ONLY, and the rest of the world he left them to themselves and we know the result from him doing that.
Quote from: Paul again
Romans 9:23,24~And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,  Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
One more...
Quote from: Paul once more
Romans 10:12~"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."
There was a BIG difference between Jews and Gentiles before the coming of Christ and the mystery of Christ unveiled through the Jewish Apostles to us. Acts ten is a classic proof of the sense that we MUST understand such scriptures as John 3:16 and others. God taught Peter that the OT meats that were unclean to Israel were a TYPE of them separating themselves from other nations that God left to themselves~but when the sheet was let down from heaven with all the unclean meats that Israel was forbidden to eat, was NO LONGER forbidden since God had open the door of salvation to the Gentiles which before was closed to them overall.
Quote from: Peter
2nd Peter 3:9~The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Not going to spend as much time for it is not needed. Again CONTEXT is King. The Lord id NOT willing that any should perish is understood within this short epistle.
Quote
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
  Who are the USWARD?
Quote from: Peter
2nd Peter 1:1-4~"Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."
God is NOT WILLING that any of his elect perish those to whom His promise has been given to through Jesus Christ, and NONE of them WILL perish, God's will........ will TRIUMPH. Impossible for Him to be disappointed, that's not the God we serve and trust in.
Quote from: Paul
1st Timothy 2:1-6~"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."
Again, it's all without DISTINCTION, not ALL without EXPECTION~The context again will prove this this....kings and pleasants, rich and poor, bond and free, male and female, young and old, greater and lesser sinners; even ALL SORTS OF MEN!~John Gill

GOD WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED? Yes, in the sense mentioned above.
 
Most who call themselves ‘Christians’ in our day neither know nor worship the Sovereign Almighty God of the Scriptures! What they do worship and contend for is a miserable IDOL!

“An anxious and pleading God, whose power is limited, and whose hands may be tied by the proud and stubborn sinner, who is less than dust of the balance, is no God, but a miserable idol!”  (Herman Hoeksema; 1886-1965)

The God of the Scriptures is a Sovereign discriminating God, who is likened unto a ‘potter’ who has power over the clay to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor! A Sovereign who is answerable to NONE but Himself! A God who doeth according to HIS WILL in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and NONE can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest THOU? [Dan 4:35]A Sovereign who hath mercy on whom He will and hardens whom He will! [Rom 9:18] A Sovereign who knows the end from the beginning, and calleth those things that are not as though they were and makes His people willing in the day of His power! A Sovereign who hath created ALL THINGS for Himself, yea even the wicked for the day of evil, and causes the wrath of man to praise Him! [Prov 16:4; Psalm 76:10]

Few who claim to be Christians know THIS God! The God THEY believe in is a frustrated idol who keeps hoping and wishing and wringing his hands helplessly as MAN AND DEVIL RULE BY THEIR ‘FREE WILL’.

 Now this God has told us plainly in His book that He hath mercy on whom He will and whom He will He hardeneth! [Rom 9:18] From amongst the children of Adam, He hath unconditionally chosen SOME to be saved from the wrath to come! [1Thes 1:10] And in order that He might be just and the justifier of these chosen ones (Rom 3:26), He sent His Son to atone on the Cross for their sins, and in time He doth irresistibly draw each and everyone for whom His Son atoned, making them ‘willing’ in the day of His power and saving them with an everlasting salvation! [Psalm 110:3]

This Almighty Sovereign God of the Bible cannot be known by ‘walking an aisle’, ‘saying a little prayer’, signing a ‘decision card’ or getting baptized when you are old enough etc, but only by REVELATION!

“I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because Thou hast HID THESE THINGS from the wise and prudent, and hast REVEALED THEM unto babes”. [Matt 11:25]

Again – “Unto YOU (His elect) it is GIVEN to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: [WHY?] That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them”. [Mark 4:11,12]

A mere mention of this God and His sovereign discriminating ways to those who are unsaved or nominally ‘Christian’ is like waving the proverbial ‘red-flag’ in the face of a mad bull!

They immediately retort with the few scriptures which they have failed to ‘rightly divide’ and which to their darkened minds make this Sovereign God of the Bible appear nothing short of a Monster!

They retort – “Oh but does not the Bible say – “God desires ALL MEN to be saved”? [1Tim 2:4] and did not Christ Himself say, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL MEN unto Me”?! [John 12:32]

Come now, if by “ALL MEN” is meant every single member of the human race; we have no option but to embrace the heresy of Universalism which teaches that by and by either in this life or in the life to come GOD WILL SAVE ALL MEN!

But we know that the Bible plainly teaches that there is no salvation beyond the grave! “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this THE JUDGMENT”! [Heb 9:27]

Whoever Christ ‘draws’ to Himself, He does so NOW! In time! And those who reject Him and go into a Christ-less grave . . .the lake of fire which is the second death.

“If by “ALL MEN” is meant ‘the entire human race’ including all mankind from Adam till the close of earth’s history: it reaches backward as well as forward! Consider, then, the history of mankind before Christ was born. Unnumbered millions lived and died before the Savior came to the earth, lived here ‘having no hope and without God in the world,’ and therefore passed out into an eternity of woe. If God ‘loved’ them, and ‘desired’ to save them, then where is the slightest proof thereof?

Scripture declares ‘Who (God) in times past (from the tower of Babel till after Pentecost) suffered all nations to walk in their own ways’ (Acts 14:16). Scripture again declares that ‘And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient’ (Rom. 1:28). To Israel God said, ‘You ONLY have I known of all the families of the earth’ (Amos 3:2). In view of these plain passages who will be so foolish as to insist that God in the past loved all mankind and desired ALL MEN to be saved! The same applies with equal force to the future . . .” [A.W. Pink]

Look around your own little circle – your family, your friends, or even your work-place. If you’ve lived long enough, you would have surely witnessed many who have died without Christ and some who have even died with a oath on their lips! Are you still going to contend that the “ALL MEN” whom Christ said He would draw, are ALL without EXCEPTION?!

To say that Christ wanted to draw them but they would not let Him is ‘begging the question’! To say that Christ was all along ‘knocking’ on the door of their hearts, pleading to be let in, but they would not, is to show your ignorance and greatly err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God! (Matt 22:29) For even if the human heart HAD such a ‘door’ which needs to be ‘opened’ to let Christ in, the Bible leaves us with no doubts as to WHO it is that opens that door!

Speaking of Lydia the seller of purple who responded to Paul’s preaching and was saved, it is written, “THE LORD OPENED her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul” [Acts 16:14].

“Hence by ALL MEN, whom God would have saved, cannot be meant EVERY INDIVIDUAL of mankind, since it is not His will that all men, in this large sense, should be saved, unless there are two contrary wills in God; for there are some who were before ordained by him unto condemnation, and are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; and it is His will concerning some, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned; nor is it fact that all are saved, as they would be, if it was His will they should; for who hath resisted His will? But there is a world of ungodly men that will be condemned, and who will go into everlasting punishment: rather therefore ALL SORTS OF MEN, agreeably to the use of the phrase in 1Ti_2:1 are here intended,  – kings and peasants, rich and poor, bond and free, male and female, young and old, greater and lesser sinners; and therefore all are to be prayed for, even all sorts of men, because God will have all men, or all sorts of men, saved”. [John Gill]

« Last Edit: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 15:12:26 by RB »

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #106 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 14:50:31 »

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #107 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 15:24:23 »
So, your understanding that God loves all without exception, and desires all be be saved, without exception is proven by these such scriptures?

I will not accuse you of cherry-picking as you did to me in your last post, (which post I will address when I come to it) but will say that you are badly deceived and have fallen, victim to sound bites that the all-wise God put in his words for men like you who refuse his word for their precious bias and church affiliation that they have been deceived by, and refuse to receive his testimony above the wisdom of man. In order let us look at your scriptures that you provided to support that God loves all without exception.You can take this verse and present it to a man of the world that has never read the first sentence of the Holy scriptures and ask him what does this scripture say, and he would say just what you think it is saying. Context drives one's interpretation~context is Lord and Master of our understanding of what we are reading seeking to understand, especially so is this true of God's word.

It is not difficult to understand what Jesus is teaching Nicodemus~a ruler and master in Israel, part of the Sanhedrin. Up until the time of Christ, God was the God of the Jews only~he chose them above all people of the earth and left others to themselves to walk in the blindness and darkness of their heart to serve others gods.  To Israel ALONE pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; from who the great men of the OT came from, and concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. God did not choose them for no other reason then he WILLED to love them ABOVE all the people of the earth, people that were greater in number, and in every way you could think of...Israel was a nobody in comparison with the Egyptians, and others and others as well.  You know the story just do not want to accept the truth of it.

Jesus speaking to Nicodemus is making a hidden mystery known to him, (and to US) one that was in their scriptures, but hidden, that God's love was now going to be shown to ALL THE WORLD, and no longer limited to the nation of the Jews~they were ONLY a type of greater things to come.

The sense in which we are to understand John 3:16 is this: God loves ALL without DISTINCTION, not all without exception that folk like you want to believe in. I have scriptures supporting my understanding and you folks have NONE, but many against what you DESIRE to believe in order to give your false position some support, but it will not stand. Listen to the JEWISH apostle interpret the scriptures for us. In the OT, God was the God of the Jews ONLY, and the rest of the world he left them to themselves and we know the result from him doing that. One more...There was a BIG difference between Jews and Gentiles before the coming of Christ and the mystery of Christ unveiled through the Jewish Apostles to us. Acts ten is a classic proof of the sense that we MUST understand such scriptures as John 3:16 and others. God taught Peter that the OT meats that were unclean to Israel were a TYPE of them separating themselves from other nations that God left to themselves~but when the sheet was let down from heaven with all the unclean meats that Israel was forbidden to eat, was NO LONGER forbidden since God had open the door of salvation to the Gentiles which before was closed to them overall. Not going to spend as much time for it is not needed. Again CONTEXT is King. The Lord id NOT willing that any should perish is understood within this short epistle.  Who are the USWARD? God is NOT WILLING that any of his elect perish those to whom His promise has been given to through Jesus Christ, and NONE of them WILL perish, God's will........ will TRIUMPH. Impossible for Him to be disappointed, that's not the God we serve and trust in.  Again, it's all without DISTINCTION, not ALL without EXPECTION~The context again will prove this this....kings and pleasants, rich and poor, bond and free, male and female, young and old, greater and lesser sinners; even ALL SORTS OF MEN!~John Gill

GOD WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED? Yes, in the sense mentioned above.
 
Most who call themselves ‘Christians’ in our day neither know nor worship the Sovereign Almighty God of the Scriptures! What they do worship and contend for is a miserable IDOL!

“An anxious and pleading God, whose power is limited, and whose hands may be tied by the proud and stubborn sinner, who is less than dust of the balance, is no God, but a miserable idol!”  (Herman Hoeksema; 1886-1965)

The God of the Scriptures is a Sovereign discriminating God, who is likened unto a ‘potter’ who has power over the clay to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor! A Sovereign who is answerable to NONE but Himself! A God who doeth according to HIS WILL in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and NONE can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest THOU? [Dan 4:35]A Sovereign who hath mercy on whom He will and hardens whom He will! [Rom 9:18] A Sovereign who knows the end from the beginning, and calleth those things that are not as though they were and makes His people willing in the day of His power! A Sovereign who hath created ALL THINGS for Himself, yea even the wicked for the day of evil, and causes the wrath of man to praise Him! [Prov 16:4; Psalm 76:10]

Few who claim to be Christians know THIS God! The God THEY believe in is a frustrated idol who keeps hoping and wishing and wringing his hands helplessly as MAN AND DEVIL RULE BY THEIR ‘FREE WILL’.

 Now this God has told us plainly in His book that He hath mercy on whom He will and whom He will He hardeneth! [Rom 9:18] From amongst the children of Adam, He hath unconditionally chosen SOME to be saved from the wrath to come! [1Thes 1:10] And in order that He might be just and the justifier of these chosen ones (Rom 3:26), He sent His Son to atone on the Cross for their sins, and in time He doth irresistibly draw each and everyone for whom His Son atoned, making them ‘willing’ in the day of His power and saving them with an everlasting salvation! [Psalm 110:3]

This Almighty Sovereign God of the Bible cannot be known by ‘walking an aisle’, ‘saying a little prayer’, signing a ‘decision card’ or getting baptized when you are old enough etc, but only by REVELATION!

“I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because Thou hast HID THESE THINGS from the wise and prudent, and hast REVEALED THEM unto babes”. [Matt 11:25]

Again – “Unto YOU (His elect) it is GIVEN to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: [WHY?] That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them”. [Mark 4:11,12]

A mere mention of this God and His sovereign discriminating ways to those who are unsaved or nominally ‘Christian’ is like waving the proverbial ‘red-flag’ in the face of a mad bull!

They immediately retort with the few scriptures which they have failed to ‘rightly divide’ and which to their darkened minds make this Sovereign God of the Bible appear nothing short of a Monster!

They retort – “Oh but does not the Bible say – “God desires ALL MEN to be saved”? [1Tim 2:4] and did not Christ Himself say, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL MEN unto Me”?! [John 12:32]

Come now, if by “ALL MEN” is meant every single member of the human race; we have no option but to embrace the heresy of Universalism which teaches that by and by either in this life or in the life to come GOD WILL SAVE ALL MEN!

But we know that the Bible plainly teaches that there is no salvation beyond the grave! “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this THE JUDGMENT”! [Heb 9:27]

Whoever Christ ‘draws’ to Himself, He does so NOW! In time! And those who reject Him and go into a Christ-less grave . . .the lake of fire which is the second death.

“If by “ALL MEN” is meant ‘the entire human race’ including all mankind from Adam till the close of earth’s history: it reaches backward as well as forward! Consider, then, the history of mankind before Christ was born. Unnumbered millions lived and died before the Savior came to the earth, lived here ‘having no hope and without God in the world,’ and therefore passed out into an eternity of woe. If God ‘loved’ them, and ‘desired’ to save them, then where is the slightest proof thereof?

Scripture declares ‘Who (God) in times past (from the tower of Babel till after Pentecost) suffered all nations to walk in their own ways’ (Acts 14:16). Scripture again declares that ‘And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient’ (Rom. 1:28). To Israel God said, ‘You ONLY have I known of all the families of the earth’ (Amos 3:2). In view of these plain passages who will be so foolish as to insist that God in the past loved all mankind and desired ALL MEN to be saved! The same applies with equal force to the future . . .” [A.W. Pink]

Look around your own little circle – your family, your friends, or even your work-place. If you’ve lived long enough, you would have surely witnessed many who have died without Christ and some who have even died with a oath on their lips! Are you still going to contend that the “ALL MEN” whom Christ said He would draw, are ALL without EXCEPTION?!

To say that Christ wanted to draw them but they would not let Him is ‘begging the question’! To say that Christ was all along ‘knocking’ on the door of their hearts, pleading to be let in, but they would not, is to show your ignorance and greatly err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God! (Matt 22:29) For even if the human heart HAD such a ‘door’ which needs to be ‘opened’ to let Christ in, the Bible leaves us with no doubts as to WHO it is that opens that door!

Speaking of Lydia the seller of purple who responded to Paul’s preaching and was saved, it is written, “THE LORD OPENED her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul” [Acts 16:14].

“Hence by ALL MEN, whom God would have saved, cannot be meant EVERY INDIVIDUAL of mankind, since it is not His will that all men, in this large sense, should be saved, unless there are two contrary wills in God; for there are some who were before ordained by him unto condemnation, and are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; and it is His will concerning some, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned; nor is it fact that all are saved, as they would be, if it was His will they should; for who hath resisted His will? But there is a world of ungodly men that will be condemned, and who will go into everlasting punishment: rather therefore ALL SORTS OF MEN, agreeably to the use of the phrase in 1Ti_2:1 are here intended,  – kings and peasants, rich and poor, bond and free, male and female, young and old, greater and lesser sinners; and therefore all are to be prayed for, even all sorts of men, because God will have all men, or all sorts of men, saved”. [John Gill]
I always think that John 6 has a good insight into the sovereignty/responsibility paradigm:

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh unto Me I will in no wise cast out."

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #107 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 15:24:23 »

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #108 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 15:30:40 »
Issues of Divine sovereignty and human responsibility attract a lot of discussion; Scripture indeed addresses both.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #108 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 15:30:40 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #109 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 19:35:14 »
SOVEREIGNTY in Calvinism DENIES that God has any power when HE ONCE decided that your infant daughter would burn in HELL from all eternity past.  God is sovereign and can pick ANYONE to be blessed and carry out His will especially as carrier of THE SEED. If a sinner repents God is SOVEREIGN and can forgive. Those who are CASTAWAYS reject God's WILL.  God can predestine ALL to be saved and conform to the image of Christ which means that is his goal set out beyond the horizon.

RB.
Quote
Speaking of Lydia the seller of purple who responded to Paul’s preaching and was saved, it is written, “THE LORD OPENED her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul” [Acts 16:14].
     “Hence by ALL MEN, whom God would have saved, cannot be meant EVERY INDIVIDUAL of mankind, since it is not His will that all men, in this large sense, should be saved
,

CONTRADICTS PAUL:  Paul silenced both male and female while SCRIPTURES were read:

1Tim. 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Tim. 2:4 Who will have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED
         and to come unto the knowledge of THE TRUTH [The Word, Logos, Regulative Principle.]

ALL who claim to be MEDIATOR in song and sermon "stand in the holy place and claim to be Jesus the Christ". IF they are not reverently listening and mutually confessing THE Word then THEY are the ones not saved BECAUSE of their SELF WILL.

1Tim. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Acts 16:12 And from thence to Philippi, which is the chief city of that part of Macedonia, and a colony:
        and we were in that city abiding certain days.
Acts 16:13 And on the SABBATH we went out of the city by a river side,
        where PRAYER was wont to be made;
        and we SAT DOWN, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia,
        a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira,
        which WORSHIPPEDD God, heard us:
                whose heart the Lord opened,
                THAT she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Lydia had the God-given eyes and ears and brain: God did not ENABLE her to hear. God REVEALED her heart as it already existed. Because Lydia had a GODLY MIND she will willing to listen to the GOSPEL.  Lydia was a righteous and godly person but she was NOT added to the Church by Christ which was a School of the Word and not a "worshiping cult."

Her heart:  ăpĕrĭo  From the intermediate idea of making visible, to reveal one's true disposition, character: “Of character, without dissimulation, open, frank, candid: “animus apertus et simplex, to mental objects, to disclose something unknown, to unveil, reveal, make known, unfold, to prove, demonstrate; or gen. to explain, recount,

Paul preached the gospel as COMMANDED and Lydia responded by being baptized: This was the MIND of Lydia and not. a supernatural act of God. The PROOF of her already-existing heart is PROVEN.

Acts 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

The MARK of the HEART or DISPOSITION of those who HEAR and OBEY by being baptized are godly BY THEIR OWN CHOICE of paths.  The nature of THEIR HEARTS determines whether they TEACH THAT WHICH HAS BEEN TAUGHT of try to EXPLAIN AWAY God's word.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his WORD WERE BAPTIZED:
         and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

I don't know many in my long life who GLADLY RECEIVE HIS WORD because Logos outlaws personal opinions, personal experiences, rhetoric, poetry, singing, playing instruments or acting: ALL of these things are to MAKE THE LAMBS DUMB BEFORE THE SLAUGHTER.

Those who SPEAK ON THEIR OWN and mock quoted CONTEXT do not WANT to COME TO THE LIGHT.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #109 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 19:35:14 »



Offline soterion

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #110 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 19:37:24 »
I cannot accept that God loved Pharoah et al equally to the Jews.

Were the Jews not his chosen ones?

 
and that He wants all saved (1 Timothy 2:4)
Yes, that has been said

and that He wants all to repent (2 Peter 3:9)
and so has this

But as to God loving all. It is not an unconditional love by any stretch. You turn your back on HIM, and he will not beg.
Those whome he hates has turned their backs.

Well, if it makes sense that God wants all saved and that He wants all to repent, then I would think it makes sense that God wants these because He loves all. That is why He sent Jesus, according to John 3:16.

Yes, I believe God loved Pharaoh. Any condemnation of Pharaoh was Pharaoh's choice, not God's. There is rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents (Luke 15:10). Along with the other quoted passages, including Ezekiel 18:23 & 32, I can't believe otherwise about God. God wants all to repent and be saved, but each person has the choice to do so or not.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #110 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 19:37:24 »

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #111 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 20:33:16 »
Any condemnation of Pharaoh was Pharaoh's choice, not God's.

Have you ever read the book of Exodus?

Specifically Exodus Chapters 7-14?





Offline soterion

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #112 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 20:56:31 »
John 3:14-18.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God sent His Son into the world of the lost, that whoever from among the lost would believe in Him will be saved. God did not send His Son to judge the world of the lost, but to save them. Those from the world of lost people that believe are not judged, but those that do not believe are judged already.

In all of this it is God's plan that His salvation be received by everyone who believes (Romans 1:16). Faith comes by hearing the word of Christ (Romans 10:17). This word is to go to all the world so that any and all from the world, from every nation, and among every person who believes will be saved (Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:15). All who hear have the opportunity to be saved. God wants all to repent and be saved (Acts 17:30-31; 1 Timothy 2:3-4; 2 Peter 3:9).

These passages should absolutely tell us that God loves all people and that He wants all saved. Inasmuch as God commands all everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30; 2 Peter 3:9) is to the extent that God wants all to be saved, and thus He loves all. Inasmuch as God wants the gospel message to go into all the world, to every nation, and to every person (Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:15) is to the extent that God wants all saved, and thus He loves all.

Now this is something that has to be clarified. If God commands something, then He has an expectation for it to be obeyed. God wants the gospel to go out to every person and for those who hear to believe and repent unto salvation. To say that God does all of this, but that He actually wants only some people to be saved, and that He wants the rest to be condemned, is a contradiction.

The truth is that to the extent that He wants the gospel to go out to all people is to the extent that He loves all mankind and wants all to be saved.

2 Peter 3:9.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The passage is telling us why Jesus has not yet come (verse 4); He is patient and is wishing for all to repent, thus He is giving mankind time so as to save as many as will repent. In the next verse Jesus will come suddenly, like a thief, and so some people will be caught off guard. Again, God commands all everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30) but not all will. Again, God is not calling just for some people to repent, but for all everywhere, inasmuch as the gospel is to go to all people.

1 Timothy 2:1-4.
I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, be made for all men; for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Why would God want quietness and peace in the lands? For unhindered evangelism. That's why the call for such prayers. God wants all people saved and so God wants the gospel to go out to all places and to all people, including those who are being prayed for (Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:15).

Offline soterion

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #113 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 21:00:20 »
Have you ever read the book of Exodus?

Specifically Exodus Chapters 7-14?

Yes.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #113 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 21:00:20 »

Online Texas Conservative

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #114 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 21:39:06 »
Yes.

Apparently it was not understood.


Offline Jaime

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #115 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 21:48:23 »
God hardening pharoah’s heart was NOT because God despised him. He used Pharoah in his master plan to free the Israelites.

Offline soterion

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #116 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 21:59:54 »
The idea that God hardened Pharaoh's heart against his own will is a ghastly teaching contrary to God's nature.

Pharaoh hardened his own heart (1 Samuel 6:6; Exodus 8:15, 32; 9:34). Scripture also tells us that God hardened his heart (Exodus 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27; 11:10; 14:8). I believe this should tell us that God let Pharaoh pursue what was in his obstinate heart.

I do not believe God makes a person do something that is against his disposition to already do. Pharaoh did not respect the Israelites or Jehovah, so he was already inclined to resist any suggestions to let the Israelite slaves go free. God used that which he was inclined to do to bring glory to His own Name.

Regardless, this situation does not negate the teaching of Scripture that man has freewill and can freely refuse to do the will of God.

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #117 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 22:46:20 »
The idea that God hardened Pharaoh's heart against his own will is a ghastly teaching contrary to God's nature.

"9:27And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD is righteous, and I and my people are wicked. 28 Intreat the LORD (for it is enough) that there be no more mighty thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no longer"


10:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him: 2 And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I am the LORD."


How is that ghastly?

It is God's sovereign right to do as He sees fit to & with His creation to serve His will.

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #118 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 22:48:48 »
"9:27And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD is righteous, and I and my people are wicked. 28 Intreat the LORD (for it is enough) that there be no more mighty thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no longer"


10:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him: 2 And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I am the LORD."


How is that ghastly?

It is God's sovereign right to do as He sees fit to & with His creation to serve His will.
In the passage, God is clearly fulfilling his purposes.

Offline soterion

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #119 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 23:18:54 »
The idea that God hardened Pharaoh's heart against his own will is a ghastly teaching contrary to God's nature.


"9:27And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD is righteous, and I and my people are wicked. 28 Intreat the LORD (for it is enough) that there be no more mighty thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no longer"


10:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him: 2 And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I am the LORD."


How is that ghastly?

It is God's sovereign right to do as He sees fit to & with His creation to serve His will.

You go from Exodus 9:27-28 right to 10:1, and leave out everything in between. It's the in-between verses that better explains what is going on with Pharaoh and why God is not just manipulating Pharaoh against his will.

Exodus 9:29-35.
And Moses said unto him, As soon as I am gone out of the city, I will spread abroad my hands unto Jehovah; the thunders shall cease, neither shall there be any more hail; that thou mayest know that the earth is Jehovah’s. But as for thee and thy servants, I know that ye will not yet fear Jehovah God.

And the flax and the barley were smitten: for the barley was in the ear, and the flax was in bloom. But the wheat and the spelt were not smitten: for they were not grown up. And Moses went out of the city from Pharaoh, and spread abroad his hands unto Jehovah: and the thunders and hail ceased, and the rain was not poured upon the earth.

And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the children of Israel go; as Jehovah had spoken by Moses.


After Pharaoh entreated Moses for relief, Pharaoh sinned yet again and hardened his own heart. God only gave to Pharaoh what he, Pharaoh, wanted and God used that to glorify Himself in Pharaoh.

Yes, God can do what He wants. What He wants for man is told to us and I believe that applies to Pharaoh as well as to everybody else.

Offline AVZ

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #120 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 23:53:27 »
These passages should absolutely tell us that God loves all people and that He wants all saved. Inasmuch as God commands all everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30; 2 Peter 3:9) is to the extent that God wants all to be saved, and thus He loves all. Inasmuch as God wants the gospel message to go into all the world, to every nation, and to every person (Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:15) is to the extent that God wants all saved, and thus He loves all.

Now this is something that has to be clarified. If God commands something, then He has an expectation for it to be obeyed. God wants the gospel to go out to every person and for those who hear to believe and repent unto salvation. To say that God does all of this, but that He actually wants only some people to be saved, and that He wants the rest to be condemned, is a contradiction.

The truth is that to the extent that He wants the gospel to go out to all people is to the extent that He loves all mankind and wants all to be saved.

The problem with your argument is that you are only willing to take it so far.
At the beginning of your argument should be that God actually has the power and autonomy to save all people.
It was God's decision however that there will be heaven and hell, and that there will be salvation and condemnation.
People therefore do not save themselves, they are being saved...and similarly people do not condemn themselves, they are being condemned.

So at the start you find a God who has decreed that some WILL not be saved but condemned.
God's decision to have a hell inherently demands that there WILL be people going there.

To sustain your argument you need a God who is completely detached from world events, and who does not interfere at all in people's lives.
The problem with people like you (respectfully) is that the moment something bad happens in your life, you don't know how fast you have to go on your knees and ask God to interfere.

The real contradiction is not in what scripture says God does and does not do, the contradiction is in your argumentation where your desire is for a God who does not mingle with peoples minds and actions. In reality however you want Him to mingle in your life and steer it in the right direction.

It was God who elected Israel and not the other way around.
All through Exodus you can find the examples of God electing the Israelites, and the Israelites rejecting Him. Even to the extend where God says "I am going to destroy them and start over".

Pharaohs heart was hardened because God wanted it to be hardened. And God did it for all the right purposes.
The Israelites who hardened their hearts many times during their passage through the desert were forgiven, time and time again. That too God did for all the right purposes.

God has a plan and that plan will come to pass. And in the process He will mingle in events on the world stage, and He will interfere in people's lives.
In the end God will save all who He wants to save, and He will condemn all He wants to condemn.

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #121 on: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 00:30:48 »
You go from Exodus 9:27-28 right to 10:1

Actually I started at chapter 7 when i asked:
Have you ever read the book of Exodus?

Specifically Exodus Chapters 7-14?

Because it is the beginning of the plagues leading to the actual exodus from Egypt

Right off the bat in chapter 7 verse 3 God states " I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt." This theme of who causes of the hardening is throughout the chapters.

I can actually even back up to chapter 5 where we find Pharaoh's first refusal & harsh punishment on the Hebrews. When we do we find that  Moses does not complain to God about Pharaoh's actions but asks God - "And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Lord, wherefore hast thou so evil entreated this people?"

Moses asks God why He has done this, not why has Pharaoh done this. Moses understands the sovereignty of God. Moses understands even wicked Pharaoh's is subject to the will of God.  Thus I'm being consistent with what is being obviously illustrated in the Book of Exodus. The obviousness of what is taught in Exodus is one of the reasons Paul references in Romans 9. God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. It is his sovereign right. Just as it is his sovereign right to make vessels fitted for destruction. It is a consistent theme throughout the Scriptures beginning with Genesis 1. He is the Creator, it all begins & ends with Him. It is all His. Everything. It is all His to do with as He pleases.

It is why Paul states "19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"


Which is no different from Romans 1:
"God gave them over to a reprobate mind"

or 2 Thessalonians 2:
"11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"
and the end result of them believing lie?
"That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."





Offline AVZ

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #122 on: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 01:00:23 »
Actually I started at chapter 7 when i asked:
Because it is the beginning of the plagues leading to the actual exodus from Egypt

Right off the bat in chapter 7 verse 3 God states " I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt." This theme of who causes of the hardening is throughout the chapters.

I can actually even back up to chapter 5 where we find Pharaoh's first refusal & harsh punishment on the Hebrews. When we do we find that  Moses does not complain to God about Pharaoh's actions but asks God - "And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Lord, wherefore hast thou so evil entreated this people?"

Moses asks God why He has done this, not why has Pharaoh done this. Moses understands the sovereignty of God. Moses understands even wicked Pharaoh's is subject to the will of God.  Thus I'm being consistent with what is being obviously illustrated in the Book of Exodus. The obviousness of what is taught in Exodus is one of the reasons Paul references in Romans 9. God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. It is his sovereign right. Just as it is his sovereign right to make vessels fitted for destruction. It is a consistent theme throughout the Scriptures beginning with Genesis 1. He is the Creator, it all begins & ends with Him. It is all His. Everything. It is all His to do with as He pleases.

It is why Paul states "19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"


Which is no different from Romans 1:
"God gave them over to a reprobate mind"

or 2 Thessalonians 2:
"11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"
and the end result of them believing lie?
"That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

As did Joseph understood this when he stated in Genesis 50:20

"But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."

Offline RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #123 on: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 06:04:24 »
Pharaoh hardened his own heart (1 Samuel 6:6; Exodus 8:15, 32; 9:34). Scripture also tells us that God hardened his heart (Exodus 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27; 11:10; 14:8). I believe this should tell us that God let Pharaoh pursue what was in his obstinate heart.
EXACTLY! God left Pharaoh TO HIMSELF without showing him any mercy as he did Moses and some of the children of Israel. When God leaves sinners to themselves their heart grows harder and harder to the degree God leaves them. God DOES NOT work inwardly in sinners to make them harden against him they are ALREADY hardened by nature...It is the MERCY of God that gives us another heart to believe, love and follow him.
Quote from: Soterion Reply #116 on: Yesterday at 21:59:54
I do not believe God makes a person do something that is against his disposition to already do.
Well, he does in some cases, (Genesis 12:14-17) but that within itself is a different topic, unrelated to God hardened Pharaoh's heart. God often times works in men's heart to turn them from their purposes.
Quote from: Job
Job 33:13-30~"Why dost thou strive against him? for he giveth not account of any of his matters. For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not. In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed; Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction, That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man. He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword. He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong pain: So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat. His flesh is consumed away, that it cannot be seen; and his bones that were not seen stick out.  Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers. If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness: Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom. His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth: He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness. He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not; He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light. Lo, all these things worketh God oftentimes with man, To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.
This he does toward his people, not of the reprobates~he leaves them to their own depraved hearts without intervening for them for he owes NO MAN anything.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 9:17~"For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth."
This verse stands connected, not with the 15th and 16th, which immediately precede it, but with the 13th and 14th. In the 13th verse, God’s love to Jacob and His hatred to Esau are declared. In respect to both, it is demanded in the 14th verse, if there be injustice with God. In the 15th and 16th verses following, the answer is given regarding the preference and love of God to Jacob. In this 17th verse, the Apostle replies to the question as it refers to God’s hatred of Esau. And the answer here is precisely similar to that given respecting Jacob. God’s love to Jacob before he had done any good was according to His usual plan of procedure; and on the same ground, His hatred of Esau before he had done any evil is also vindicated. Paul here proves his doctrine from the example of one to whom, in Divine sovereignty, God acted according to justice without mercy. The Scripture said that God raised up Pharaoh for the very purpose of manifesting His own glory in his punishment.

"For the Scripture saith"~ By the manner in which the Apostle begins this verse, we are taught that whatever the Scriptures declare on any subject is to be considered as decisive on the point. "What saith the Scripture?" This is the proof to which the Apostle appeals. It should further be observed, that Paul ascribes to the Scriptures what was said by God Himself, Exodus 9:16. This expressly teaches us that the words of Scripture are the words of God.

The Scripture saith unto Pharaoh~ that is, the Scripture showeth how Moses was commanded to say unto Pharaoh, Exodus 9:16~ Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up.  Here is the destination of Pharaoh to his destruction. That I might show My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth.

This is the end and design intended by it. It was not, then, by any concurrence of fortuitous circumstances that Pharaoh was seated on the throne of Egypt, and invested with the power he possessed when Moses was appointed to conduct Israel out of Egypt. He was raised up, or made to stand in that place, in order that, by his opposition, from the perversity of his heart, in him God might show His own power and exalt His own name. It is not merely alleged that God had not shown mercy to this king of Egypt, or that He had suffered him to go on in his wicked ways; but, in language which the unrenewed heart of man will never relish, it is declared, "Even
for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth."
For this very end, the birth, the life, and the situation of Pharaoh were all of Divine appointment. This is language so clear that it cannot be guiltlessly misinterpreted, even though men will try to fit their system. The unbelieving heart of man will revolt, and his ingenuity may invent expedients to soften this explicit declaration; but it never can
be successfully evaded
. All the shifts of sophistry will never be able fairly, or even plausibly, to explain this language in a sense that will not testify the sovereignty of God.

The above truth respecting Pharaoh is what the Scriptures declare; and we ought never to pretend to go further into the deep things of God than they go before us, but submissively to bow to every Divine declaration. We know that all sin will be found with man; but here we are taught that even the sin of man will turn out for the glory of God, and for this very purpose the wicked are raised up. If we cannot fathom this depth in the Divine counsels, still let us be certain that what God says is true, and must be received by us. We are assured that the Judge of all the earth will in all things act righteously, although we may not be able to comprehend His ways. We can accept them and should do so. We are not we required to comprehend them. We are required to believe His word, and to believe that it is consistent with the eternal righteousness of His character.

‘Let us treasure,’ says Calvin, ‘the following observation in our minds, never to feel the least desire to attain any other knowledge concerning this doctrine save what is taught us in Scripture. When the Lord shuts His sacred mouth, let us also stop our thoughts from advancing one step further in our inquiries."

Consistently with the vain attempts that have been made to reconcile the truth above affirmed with philosophy falsely so called, the whole subject of this chapter might be rejected, equally with that of the verbal inspiration of the Scriptures. It has accordingly been perverted by many who have explained it in such a way as to remove all the difficulties which it presents. Our Lord in one short sentence has declared the true reason of their finding it so hard to understand this chapter. "Why do ye not understand My speech?  Even because ye cannot hear My word." It is also written for our warning. Many, therefore, of His disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?’ There is no part of Scripture, the meaning of which is more obvious than that of this chapter. But if men will yield to the natural opposition of their minds to the truth it declares, and, wresting the plainest expressions, affirm that hatred signifies love, is it surprising that they are bewildered in following their own devices?
Quote from: Paul
Romans 9:18~Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth
Here the general conclusion is drawn from all the Apostle had said in the three preceding verses, in denying that God was unrighteous in loving Jacob and hating Esau. It exhibits the ground of God’s dealings both with the elect and the reprobate. It concludes that His own sovereign pleasure is the rule both with respect to those whom He receives, and those whom He rejects. He pardons one and hardens another, without reference to anything but His own sovereign will, in accordance with His infinite wisdom, holiness, and justice. "Even so, Father,’ said our blessed Lord, for so it seemed good in Thy sight."~Matthew 11:26

God is not chargeable with any injustice in electing some and not others; for this is an act of mere mercy and compassion, and that can be no violation of justice.

"Therefore hath He mercy On whom He will have mercy"~.  Paul here repeats for the third time, that God has mercy on whom He will have mercy, without intimating the least regard to anything IN man as deserving mercy. The smallest degree of right in the creature would furnish reason for displaying justice, not mercy. Mercy is that adorable perfection of God by which He pities and relieves the miserable. Under the good and righteous government of God, no one is miserable who does not deserve to be so. The objects of mercy are persons who are miserable, because they are guilty, and therefore justly deserving of punishment. The exercise of mercy is a particular display of the grace or free favor of God. In no case can it be due to a guilty creature; it necessarily implies the absence of all right. A man can never have a right to mercy; and to talk of deserving mercy is a contradiction in terms. God, it is said, "delighteth in mercy," ~Micah 7:18; and in the proclamation of His name to Moses, this attribute is particularly signalized. "The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious,"~Exodus 34:6. He is "rich and plenteous" in mercy, and His tender mercies are over all His works. Mercy, however, is an attribute, the constant exercise of which is not essential to God, like that of justice, which can never, as has been remarked, for a moment be suspended. Mercy is dispensed according to His sovereign pleasure in regard to persons or times, as to Him seemeth good. Towards the fallen children of men it was gloriously displayed when God sent His Son into the world, which was purely a work of mercy, and not demanded by justice. But to the fallen angels mercy was not vouchsafed. And is this any impeachment of the mercy of God? If not, is it a just ground for complaint, that in order to manifest His hatred of sin, His mercy is not extended to a certain portion of the human race, who we know for certain shall perish? Thus God has mercy on whom He will have mercy. It is one of the fundamental errors of Socinians, and of many besides, to hold that the mercy of God must be necessarily and constantly exercised; while, reversing the order of Scripture, and all its representations of the character of God, they deny this necessity regarding His justice.

The same act, however, may be both an act of justice and an act of mercy in reference to different objects. The punishment of the enemies of God, the slaying of the firstborn in Egypt, the overthrow of Pharaoh and his host, the discomfiture of kings, and the transfer of their lands for an heritage to Israel, while they were acts of justice towards the enemies of His people, are all ascribed to the mercy of God to them~Psalm 136 Read it...."To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for His mercy endureth for ever: But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red Sea: for His mercy endureth for ever: To Him which smote great kings: for His mercy endureth for ever: And slew famous kings: for His mercy endureth for ever: And gave their land for an heritage: for His mercy endureth for ever: Even an heritage to Israel His servant: for His mercy endureth for ever."

Mercy, then, which is a particular kind of Divine goodness, is sovereign; and to confer favors freely, consistently with Divine wisdom, does injury to no one.If God was only just, there would be no place for mercy; if He never acted as a sovereign benefactor, there could be no place for the plan of redemption. God may be considered under two different aspects, either as judging with equity, or as disposing at His will of His benefits; in other words, as a judge, or as a sovereign. Under either of these aspects, in whatever manner He acts, having nothing higher than Himself, He is the supreme God. Sovereignty, when this word is applied to God, signifies the arbitrary will of a benefactor, because that under the other aspects there is no place for the exercise of arbitrary will. In the exercise of His justice, God is sovereign in His judgments and His punishments, but not arbitrary, because He does not judge without demerit in the objects of His judgment. When, therefore, He acts as Judge and Supreme Ruler, His acts are founded upon equity; but when He acts as Sovereign, His acts are founded upon His free favor, and dispensed with wisdom. Whatever offense the human mind may take at the attribute of Divine justice, and its exercise in punishing the guilty, we should think that all men would eagerly embrace the view given in Scripture of the Divine mercy. Yet, in reality, the peculiar character of the mercy of God is as disagreeable to men as is His justice itself.

The Divine mercy is not only sovereign, but, respecting its object, it is unlimited. Neither of these peculiarities is agreeable to the mind of man. Human wisdom views God as merciful, but that mercy it makes to extend equally to all, and unlimitedly to none. For persons not guilty of glaring sins, God’s mercy is not only expected by the world, but even claimed and demanded. To deny it to those who are sober and regular in their lives, would be looked on as both cruel and unjust. In the passage before us, however, we see that God’s mercy is sovereign, that it extends to one and not to another, while no man can give a reason for the preference of one and the rejection of the other. The only reason God condescends to give is His own pleasure: ‘I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy.’ The unlimited character of the Divine mercy is a thing that ought to be most agreeable to every man. Even should any be so blind as not to perceive that they need such mercy for themselves, yet, if they loved mankind, they should rejoice that the Divine mercy is such as to extend to the chief of sinners. Constant experience, however, as well as the history of our Lord’s life, shows us that this is not the case. Instead of rejoicing in the extent of the Divine mercy, the heart of the self-righteous man will swell with indignation when he hears that mercy is extended to the vile and the profligate. Nothing in the conduct of our Lord gave such offense to the scribes and Pharisees as this peculiarity in His conduct of receiving sinners In the most prominent manner He exhibited this feature of mercy, and publicans and sinners heard Him, and received His doctrine, and turned from their sins unto God; while the proud, self-righteous Pharisees burned with indignation at the conduct of Christ in this instance. He was constantly upbraided as receiving sinners and eating with them.
« Last Edit: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 06:18:54 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #124 on: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 06:16:36 »
The idea that God hardened Pharaoh's heart against his own will is a ghastly teaching contrary to God's nature.

Pharaoh hardened his own heart (1 Samuel 6:6; Exodus 8:15, 32; 9:34). Scripture also tells us that God hardened his heart (Exodus 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27; 11:10; 14:8). I believe this should tell us that God let Pharaoh pursue what was in his obstinate heart.

I do not believe God makes a person do something that is against his disposition to already do. Pharaoh did not respect the Israelites or Jehovah, so he was already inclined to resist any suggestions to let the Israelite slaves go free. God used that which he was inclined to do to bring glory to His own Name.

Regardless, this situation does not negate the teaching of Scripture that man has freewill and can freely refuse to do the will of God.
Yes, absolutely!!

Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #125 on: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 07:25:39 »
‘Let us treasure,’ says Calvin, ‘the following observation in our minds, never to feel the least desire to attain any other knowledge concerning this doctrine save what is taught us in Scripture. When the Lord shuts His sacred mouth, let us also stop our thoughts from advancing one step further in our inquiries."
If only he and those who follow his teachings had done that.  But alas, it is especially in advancing several steps further in his inquiries that he and his teachings are so wrong.

So much of what you have posted there makes the serious mistake of not keeping separate God's dealing with man with respect to his physical being in this world and His dealings with man with respect to his spiritual being.  That God chooses some for service and some for salvation are two different things entirely.  Israel was a chosen nation for service, not for salvation.  That is the central feature and purpose of the entire chapter, Romans 9;  the central feature and purpose which you fail completely to understand.  That is what the unbelieving Jews failed completely to understand; namely, that God chose Israel as the avenue through which Jesus, and salvation, was to come to the world.  The salvation of any individual Hebrew, Israelite, or Jew was totally unrelated to being one in God's chosen nation.

Rom 9:21  Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

This has nothing to do with saving one vessel and condemning another.  It has only to do with God's use of the vessel not with God's saving the vessel.

Likewise,

Rom 9:18  So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

this has only to do with God's temporal use and dealings with the individual for His purposes in this world, not the salvation of the individual.   That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children...... (Rom 9:8)

Speaking of verse 18 you said,
Quote from: RB
Here the general conclusion is drawn from all the Apostle had said in the three preceding verses, in denying that God was unrighteous in loving Jacob and hating Esau. It exhibits the ground of God’s dealings both with the elect and the reprobate.
But that has nothing to do with whether either Jacob or Esau was an "elect" or a "reprobate".  It has only to do with what service God selected for each of them here in this life in this world. 

And just about everything that you presented in that post was flawed because of your misunderstanding of God's choosing for service versus God's choosing for salvation. 

Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #126 on: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 07:34:56 »
The Divine mercy is not only sovereign, but, respecting its object, it is unlimited. Neither of these peculiarities is agreeable to the mind of man.
God's divine mercy is never at the expense of God's divine justice.  And God's divine justice is never at the expense of God's divine mercy.  It is God's justice and mercy together which is the basis for His plan of salvation for any. It is the sacrifice of His Son on the cross which provides for both.  But it comes with conditions.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #127 on: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 08:19:37 »

The Spirit of God is still hovering above the earth pulling on the hearts of all people so they will conform to God's will. Some resist others conform. Perhaps the Spirit pulls harder on some than others. With some He gives them over completely to be guided by their own passions and will. So perhaps God even actively hardens the hearts of others. Since the crucifixion and Pentecost, when the Spirit came full force as a rushing mighty wind, the Spirit began putting in overtime in his work on people. The earth is being recreated one person at a time. The mills of God turn slow but grind exceedingly fine.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #128 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 04:11:32 »
God who is light and everything good . He gives man over to there own heart as per romans 1. By this very act,  as he retreats ,    he knows that man will indulge in his evil desire. He is saying if I turn my light , my face away from man it is like I have hardenered his heart. Because I have removed my goodness from him. Evil reigns

Why , to show man he needs me and in needing me he may love me because I am good.


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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #129 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 04:46:02 »
Hi Ginger Rella

I have been working crazy 6 day , 12 hours shifts , nights with days to nights again , to cover for 2 people out of our 4 who are off because of extended injury for the last 3mths going into Xmas.  My mind and body are all over the place Not really sure why my name was mentioned but I’m a bit slow on figuring things out.especially now.

I’m sorry if I have upset you by my posts. You are important and welcome so please don’t give up on us. Your brother in Christ always

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #130 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 05:26:47 »
I have been working crazy 6 day , 12 hours shifts , nights with days to nights again , to cover for 2 people out of our 4 who are off because of extended injury for the last 3mths going into Xmas.  My mind and body are all over the place Not really sure why my name was mentioned but I’m a bit slow on figuring things out.especially now.
Mark you are good brother, and very kind, to all. May God who is gracious above all be so to you and give your body some rest along with your mind. The Lord Jesus be with your spirit. RB

Offline RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #131 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 06:53:04 »
This is merely an assertion with absolutely no linguistics to back it up. 
What I have that you seem to not care much about is scriptural proof. When Paul reasoned with men he did so out of the scriptures preserved by God for his people.
Quote from: Luke
Acts 17:2,3~"And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ."
The prophets, Jesus Christ and his apostles were given to the scripture ALONE for their doctrine and source of truth~period.
Quote from: revc Reply #70 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 08:44:38
Perhaps a list of all the scriptures that speak of Christ possessing faith
I gave some and you mocked them, proving to me that that is not what you are after. I will not cast pearls before a swine, for my Lord has commanded me not to do so, and I will not.
Quote from: revc Reply #70 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 08:44:38
linguistic data backing up the translations would do well.
That's not needed and NONE of the apostles or Christ ever requested such an absurd thing. They used what they had, KNOWING God's promises to protect his word from the wicked generation of evil men who have no regard for his word, and certainly do not have the faith of God's elect trusting God to keep his word pure. So they wander through this world with NO solid faith in the holy scriptures professing themselves to be wise, yet God has blinded their eyes because of their proud spirit, thinking themselves that they are wise enough to figure this inspiration of the holy scriptures out. Such men are in for a big surprise and a very rude awakening.
Quote from: revc Reply #70 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 08:44:38
This is an example of ignorance of the original language and a seeming lack of interest in arriving at the meaning of the original language.
Sir, you are only deceiving yourself~you have NO CLUE of any original language and neither does any man living or that has lived.  All anyone has EVER had in what they have is in the translations given by ready scribes, from Moses on to our day! BY FAITH we trust God that he has preserved his word JUST AS God first gave it~if one does not have THAT FAITH he shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of God~ I'm NOT speaking of the kingdom of God in its final state, but the kingdom now where men and women lived KNOWING the truth and understanding it and love it...where they live by faith, and not by sight.
Quote from: revc Reply #70 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 08:44:38
Before you can arrive at interpretation you must first determine translation.
SO WRONG! Divine revelation comes through the Spirit of God, NOT through knowing certain translations or by human wisdom, but to those who HUMBLE themselves and confess that they are little children seeking the truth forsaking all of their earthly wisdom trusting in God's mercy to reveal his hidden truths to them~much like Solomon when he first prayed unto God. Not that you care, but here it is....
Quote
1st King 3:3-14~"And Solomon loved the LORD, walking in the statutes of David his father: only he sacrificed and burnt incense in high places. And the king went to Gibeon to sacrifice there; for that was the great high place: a thousand burnt offerings did Solomon offer upon that altar. In Gibeon the LORD appeared to Solomon in a dream by night: and God said, Ask what I shall give thee. And Solomon said, Thou hast shewed unto thy servant David my father great mercy, according as he walked before thee in truth, and in righteousness, and in uprightness of heart with thee; and thou hast kept for him this great kindness, that thou hast given him a son to sit on his throne, as it is this day. And now, O LORD my God, thou hast made thy servant king instead of David my father: and I am but a little child: I know not how to go out or come in. And thy servant is in the midst of thy people which thou hast chosen, a great people, that cannot be numbered nor counted for multitude. Give therefore thy servant an understanding heart to judge thy people, that I may discern between good and bad: for who is able to judge this thy so great a people? And the speech pleased the Lord, that Solomon had asked this thing. And God said unto him, Because thou hast asked this thing, and hast not asked for thyself long life; neither hast asked riches for thyself, nor hast asked the life of thine enemies; but hast asked for thyself understanding to discern judgment; Behold, I have done according to thy words: lo, I have given thee a wise and an understanding heart; so that there was none like thee before thee, neither after thee shall any arise like unto thee. And I have also given thee that which thou hast not asked, both riches, and honour: so that there shall not be any among the kings like unto thee all thy days. And if thou wilt walk in my ways, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as thy father David did walk, then I will lengthen thy days."
Quote from: revc Reply #70 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 08:44:38
It really makes no sense to discuss anything further with you if you are unwilling to defend your assertion that God incarnate had faith,
One thing then I'M FINISHED with you. I have NEVER said that God incarnate had faith, see you do not understand so it fruitless to carry on a conversation with you. THE MAN Jesus had faith as a MAN. Jesus was a complex person fully God, and fully man, it was the MAN, Jesus of Nazareth that lived in a body of flesh and blood that had faith, not God. The two natures of Jesus were ever separated from each other, what could be said of one, could NOT be said of the other.

Learn what I believe before trying to attack me, when you attack me, learn what I do believe and teach.
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 08:09:39 by RB »

Offline soterion

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #132 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 21:33:38 »
The problem with your argument is that you are only willing to take it so far.
At the beginning of your argument should be that God actually has the power and autonomy to save all people.
It was God's decision however that there will be heaven and hell, and that there will be salvation and condemnation.
People therefore do not save themselves, they are being saved...and similarly people do not condemn themselves, they are being condemned.

So at the start you find a God who has decreed that some WILL not be saved but condemned.
God's decision to have a hell inherently demands that there WILL be people going there.

To sustain your argument you need a God who is completely detached from world events, and who does not interfere at all in people's lives.
The problem with people like you (respectfully) is that the moment something bad happens in your life, you don't know how fast you have to go on your knees and ask God to interfere.

The real contradiction is not in what scripture says God does and does not do, the contradiction is in your argumentation where your desire is for a God who does not mingle with peoples minds and actions. In reality however you want Him to mingle in your life and steer it in the right direction.

It was God who elected Israel and not the other way around.
All through Exodus you can find the examples of God electing the Israelites, and the Israelites rejecting Him. Even to the extend where God says "I am going to destroy them and start over".

Pharaohs heart was hardened because God wanted it to be hardened. And God did it for all the right purposes.
The Israelites who hardened their hearts many times during their passage through the desert were forgiven, time and time again. That too God did for all the right purposes.

God has a plan and that plan will come to pass. And in the process He will mingle in events on the world stage, and He will interfere in people's lives.
In the end God will save all who He wants to save, and He will condemn all He wants to condemn.

I take my argument as far as I need to take it.  ::smile::

It is people who decide if they will obey God or not; it is not God who decides. God wants faith and obedience from all, but He does not constrain people against their will to obey or remain disobedient. Yes, there is a hell because God knows there will be the disobedient/unfaithful, not because He wants it populated.

Quote
Pharaohs heart was hardened because God wanted it to be hardened.

So, as much as God hates sin and commands against it, even to Pharaoh, He at the same time wanted Pharaoh to remain sinful and rebellious? There couldn't be a bigger contradiction. God commanded Pharaoh to let the people go. Inasmuch as God commands it, He wants it obeyed.

What it seems like you don't want to see is that God is willing to work in a person's life and within a person's choices, even if they are sinful. God knew Pharaoh would remain disobedient and God revealed Himself throughout the whole situation so as to be glorified in the sight of the Egyptians and Israel.

Quote
In the end God will save all who He wants to save, and He will condemn all He wants to condemn.

I hope you are not suggesting that God wants anybody to be condemned in the same way He wants anybody to be saved. ::frown::

Only to the extent that God wants justice to prevail can it be said that He wants anybody to be condemned. If it was up to God only, then all would be saved. However, God gives that choice to man. God decreed condemnation for the unfaithful/disobedient. God wants His will to be done with regard to justice, although He would rather that people repent and be saved.

Offline soterion

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #133 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 21:49:28 »
Actually I started at chapter 7 when i asked:
Because it is the beginning of the plagues leading to the actual exodus from Egypt

Right off the bat in chapter 7 verse 3 God states " I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt." This theme of who causes of the hardening is throughout the chapters.

I can actually even back up to chapter 5 where we find Pharaoh's first refusal & harsh punishment on the Hebrews. When we do we find that  Moses does not complain to God about Pharaoh's actions but asks God - "And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Lord, wherefore hast thou so evil entreated this people?"

Moses asks God why He has done this, not why has Pharaoh done this. Moses understands the sovereignty of God. Moses understands even wicked Pharaoh's is subject to the will of God.  Thus I'm being consistent with what is being obviously illustrated in the Book of Exodus. The obviousness of what is taught in Exodus is one of the reasons Paul references in Romans 9. God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. It is his sovereign right. Just as it is his sovereign right to make vessels fitted for destruction. It is a consistent theme throughout the Scriptures beginning with Genesis 1. He is the Creator, it all begins & ends with Him. It is all His. Everything. It is all His to do with as He pleases.

It is why Paul states "19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"


Which is no different from Romans 1:
"God gave them over to a reprobate mind"

or 2 Thessalonians 2:
"11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"
and the end result of them believing lie?
"That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Yes, God hardened Pharaoh's heart in that He perpetuated what was already in Pharaoh's heart...rebellion. God knew Pharaoh would not change his mind and obey. God has the right to work in the lives of the rebellious and unfaithful any way He wants, just as He can work in the lives of the faithful and righteous any way He wants.

Nothing in Romans 9 should be understood to say that God takes a way a person's choice when it comes to His showing mercy or hardening the heart. The decision to be among either the obedient or disobedient is still up to the person, including Pharaoh.

Offline soterion

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #134 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 22:17:26 »
Quote from: Paul
Romans 9:17~"For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth."

This verse stands connected, not with the 15th and 16th, which immediately precede it, but with the 13th and 14th. In the 13th verse, God’s love to Jacob and His hatred to Esau are declared. In respect to both, it is demanded in the 14th verse, if there be injustice with God. In the 15th and 16th verses following, the answer is given regarding the preference and love of God to Jacob. In this 17th verse, the Apostle replies to the question as it refers to God’s hatred of Esau. And the answer here is precisely similar to that given respecting Jacob. God’s love to Jacob before he had done any good was according to His usual plan of procedure; and on the same ground, His hatred of Esau before he had done any evil is also vindicated. Paul here proves his doctrine from the example of one to whom, in Divine sovereignty, God acted according to justice without mercy. The Scripture said that God raised up Pharaoh for the very purpose of manifesting His own glory in his punishment.

"For the Scripture saith"~ By the manner in which the Apostle begins this verse, we are taught that whatever the Scriptures declare on any subject is to be considered as decisive on the point. "What saith the Scripture?" This is the proof to which the Apostle appeals. It should further be observed, that Paul ascribes to the Scriptures what was said by God Himself, Exodus 9:16. This expressly teaches us that the words of Scripture are the words of God.

The Scripture saith unto Pharaoh~ that is, the Scripture showeth how Moses was commanded to say unto Pharaoh, Exodus 9:16~ Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up.  Here is the destination of Pharaoh to his destruction. That I might show My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth.


Again, those passages are referring to whom and how God chooses to work among nations and peoples according to His purposes, which purposes are ultimately for the good of His people. God knew Pharaoh would choose disobedience and so God chose to work through him to be glorified throughout the earth. Likewise, God chose Jacob to the rejection of Esau to work His will regarding Israel and ultimately the coming of the Messiah. Paul is using these illustrations to talk about how God is working His will in the Jews and Gentiles in those early years of the church as He was working to bring the two peoples together into one body, united in Christ.

None of those illustrations should be understood as how God chooses who He will save or condemn as individuals. God's choice alone would be the salvation of all, but He gives the right to man to choose to obey or disobey, according to the revelation that God gives to man.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #135 on: Sun Aug 05, 2018 - 04:21:40 »
None of those illustrations should be understood as how God chooses who He will save or condemn as individuals. God's choice alone would be the salvation of all, but He gives the right to man to choose to obey or disobey, according to the revelation that God gives to man.
You said these words to me.
Quote from: soterion Reply #133 on: Yesterday at 21:49:28
Yes, God hardened Pharaoh's heart in that He perpetuated what was already in Pharaoh's heart...rebellion. God knew Pharaoh would not change his mind and obey. God has the right to work in the lives of the rebellious and unfaithful any way He wants, just as He can work in the lives of the faithful and righteous any way He wants.

Nothing in Romans 9 should be understood to say that God takes a way a person's choice when it comes to His showing mercy or hardening the heart. The decision to be among either the obedient or disobedient is still up to the person, including Pharaoh.
To TonkaTim....
Quote from: soterion Reply #133 on: Yesterday at 21:49:28
Yes, God hardened Pharaoh's heart in that He perpetuated what was already in Pharaoh's heart...rebellion. God knew Pharaoh would not change his mind and obey. God has the right to work in the lives of the rebellious and unfaithful any way He wants, just as He can work in the lives of the faithful and righteous any way He wants.

Nothing in Romans 9 should be understood to say that God takes a way a person's choice when it comes to His showing mercy or hardening the heart. The decision to be among either the obedient or disobedient is still up to the person, including Pharaoh.
These to AVZ...
Quote from: soterion Reply #132 on: Yesterday at 21:33:38
Yes, God hardened Pharaoh's heart in that He perpetuated what was already in Pharaoh's heart...rebellion. God knew Pharaoh would not change his mind and obey. God has the right to work in the lives of the rebellious and unfaithful any way He wants, just as He can work in the lives of the faithful and righteous any way He wants.

Nothing in Romans 9 should be understood to say that God takes a way a person's choice when it comes to His showing mercy or hardening the heart. The decision to be among either the obedient or disobedient is still up to the person, including Pharaoh.
I will let these good men answer for themselves, yet I put them together so it can be very plain that your gospel is based totally on MAN being the saviour of himself by HIS OBEDIENCE and so-called free will~and you have taken Paul's teachings and twisted them around from teaching God's sovereignty in the salvation of men based on God's will and mercy, not based upon man wills and good works.

You said to brother AVZ...
Quote from: soterion Reply #132 on: Yesterday at 21:33:38
It is people who decide if they will obey God or not; it is not God who decides. God wants faith and obedience from all, but He does not constrain people against their will to obey or remain disobedient. Yes, there is a hell because God knows there will be the disobedient/unfaithful, not because He wants it populated.
So, you PLAINLY believe that salvation from sin and condemnation is by the will of man, not God's will to show mercy.

You said to brother Tim....
Quote from: soterion Reply #133 on: Yesterday at 21:49:28
Nothing in Romans 9 should be understood to say that God takes a way a person's choice
It does not say that in Romans nine because it does not have to say that, it IS taught elsewhere in the scriptures that man was taken CAPTIVE of Satan through the fall of our first parents and every person are born SALVES to sin and in bondage to the devil himself...EVERY MAN! It IS of God's mercy that ANY are delivered. AVZ can finish.
Quote from: soterion Reply #134 on: Yesterday at 22:17:26
but He gives the right to man to choose to obey or disobey, according to the revelation that God gives to man.
Even within your statement here to me and based upon what you and others believe God IS NOT fair because no two people have the same opportunity and some have NEVER had any, never. Your doctrine is inconsistent and as I have said more than once, being inconsistent is the hallmark of false doctrine which you have come to embraced and spreading to others which makes your sin greater.

I am going to do a verse by verse through Romans nine next and we shall allow Paul to teach us exactly what he is saying concerning God's sovereignty....service or salvation to eternal life.
« Last Edit: Sun Aug 05, 2018 - 04:29:10 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #136 on: Sun Aug 05, 2018 - 05:21:20 »
Quote from: Paul
Romans 9:6~Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Did Paul’s grief for Israel to whom God had promised great things mean His word had failed? Paul’s doctrine of God’s rejection of Israel, which he had just implied and would now explain, did not contradict or overthrow the covenant promises of God to Israel to make God a liar or failure.

"As though the word of God"~ What is "THE" word of God here? There's a thread now on the forum concerning THE Bible, do we have THE Bible from God, and my answer would be YES we DO. If Paul use the words THE word of God, then blessed be God we have HIS word preserved for us in our own language.  What is the word of God?

Is it God’s O.T. covenant promises to Israel that appears to have failed by Paul’s fear for Israel? Is it the N.T. gospel and its lack of reception by the nation of Israel, which Paul shows in chapters 10,11.? Is it God’s unconditional promise to Abram and his seed of salvation and eternal inheritance? We choose the unconditional promises made to Abraham and his seed recorded in the OT starting with Genesis 12. 

The context before included special covenants, giving of the law, promises, and fathers (9:4-5). The context following takes up God’s promises to the seed of Abram, namely Isaac (9:7-8). The connected context deals with the word of promise, or the word of God, to Abraham (9:9). Israel’s greatest trust was in God’s promises to Abraham, which they considered absolute and unconditional to the whole nation for blessing in this life and in the next (Nehemiah 9:7-8; Psalm 47:9; 105:42; Isaiah 29:22; 41:8; 51:2; Matthew 1:1; 3:9; Luke 1:55,73. God’s promises to Abraham were first of their kind and greatest of their kind~(Genesis 12:1-3; 13:14-17; 17:1-8; 22:15-18; Hebrews 11:8-16).

"Hath taken none effect"~The covenants and promises to Abraham and through Moses should have a great effect on Israel, for it was to that biological and national people that they were principally sent and intended. If Paul’s fear and grief was unlimited, that is all of Israel had been rejected, then God’s promises to Abraham had failed of being effectual, making God a liar and unwilling or unable to perform. But we know God’s word is always effectual, for God is true and omnipotent (Hebrews 6:17-18). Paul handled a similar argument earlier in Romans in dialogistically refuting Jewish claims (3:3-4). The Jews assumed some Israelites not believing could not make God’s promises ineffectual, for they were confident their whole nation and all its people would be saved regardless of unbelief. Paul rebuked their heresy by declaring God’s complete integrity and truthfulness and the universal sin of all Jews, which left God righteously as Judge over a people rejecting His word.

Paul will show in the coming chapters and verses that God’s promises were effectual (Romans 11:1-2), when the right object of those promises is considered ~ the elect and foreknown portion of Israel. The issue here is not proportional of how many did or did not believe Paul’s N.T. gospel, but rather it is the Jews’ error of salvation of the entire nation being refuted by Paul’s grief for many Jews. The Jews assumed God’s covenants and promises were unconditional and unlimited to Israel. Therefore, Paul’s grief for Israel implied a loss of some, few or many, which would fault God. However, God’s unconditional promises were never intended for the nation, but for the elect~the children of God's promises. The language is the word of God taking effect, not God’s word being received, as in the gospel. God’s word to Abraham took perfect effect and was perfectly fulfilled~ in one of seven sons!

"For they are not all Israel"~We must choose ~not all are elect Israel that are of national … or not all national Israel are elect? Of course we already know the conclusion ~God elected only some of national Israel for the promises, not all. We already know the conclusion~ the superset is national Israel; the subset is elect Israel. We shall let the contextual order of 9:7-8 choose for us … not all ethnic Israelites are elect. The true Israel of God, the only one we should care about, is the small elect part of the nation. Throughout the Bible, but especially here in Romans 9-11, any use of Israel must be identified failure to do so, will end up in error.

God’s word has not failed, if promised to Abraham or Moses, for it was only for some of Israel. God is yet true, and His word is inviolate, for His promises are realized in the elect of Israel. Gentiles are not included here at all, though they are viewed as the Israel of God in various senses elsewhere in the New Testament (Galatians 6:16; Acts 15:12-18; Galatians 3:28-29; 4:26-28). Though ethnic Israel appeared as God’s people by national privilege, only the elect was truly so.

"Which are of Israel"~We understand this Israel to be elect Israel, comprised of only part of ethnic Israel. Here is a profound statement, not altogether new, that establishes two Israel’s for the 9-11. Any reference to Israel, especially in chapters 9-11, must be identified as either ethnic or elect. This distinction is crucial and must always be remembered, especially in this part of Romans more so in chapters 10,11. God hereby revealed that an elect, spiritual portion of Israel was the real object of His mercy. Election had already been introduced (8:28-33), but now it is applied specifically to Israel. Paul had also already introduced a difference among Jews by inward circumcision (2:28-29). This election of a small remnant within the nation had been described before (Isaiah 1:9 cp Rom 9:29; Isaiah 10:20-23 cp Rom 9:27-28; I Kings 19:18 cp Rom 11:2-5; etc.). Isaiah was troubled like Paul, but the Spirit explained the small elect remnant (Isaiah 6:9-13). Jesus identified a difference among Jews of His time regarding the gospel (John 8:37,43,47), which He further explained as the difference between elect sheep and goats (John 10:26-29). Jesus also identified Zacchaeus a son of Abraham, surely implying an elect Israelite (Luke 19:9).
Quote from: Paul
Romans 9:7~"Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called."
I'll keep it shorter from here on out......maybe.

Service in this life or Salvation to eternal life in the world to come.  Let us search and see as we work our way through Romans chapter nine down to verse 24, by then we shall have our answer, and  I'm very confident that we will~and I'm just as confident that 4WD, and soterion, and their friends are not going to like what is ahead for them~but that is their problem, not mine.
« Last Edit: Sun Aug 05, 2018 - 05:35:59 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #137 on: Sun Aug 05, 2018 - 06:39:01 »
.....and I'm just as confident that 4WD, and soterion, and their friends are not going to like what is ahead for them~but that is their problem, not mine.
It is quite likely that I will not like what you are going to say.  I have heard it all before  -- from you and others with the tainted influence of Calvinism on such passages.  But that is not my problem.  It is most certainly a disappointment any would read and study God's word and come away with the perverted interpretations contained in the Calvinist Theologies.  Disappointment --  but not a problem.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #138 on: Sun Aug 05, 2018 - 06:52:33 »
"For they are not all Israel"~We must choose ~not all are elect Israel that are of national … or not all national Israel are elect? Of course we already know the conclusion ~God elected only some of national Israel for the promises, not all. We already know the conclusion~ the superset is national Israel; the subset is elect Israel. We shall let the contextual order of 9:7-8 choose for us … not all ethnic Israelites are elect. The true Israel of God, the only one we should care about, is the small elect part of the nation. Throughout the Bible, but especially here in Romans 9-11, any use of Israel must be identified failure to do so, will end up in error.
We see here the implied premise of Calvinism by which the true message of the entire passage will be distorted; and that is the false doctrine of unconditional election.  Unconditional election is not stated specifically in the above but it is inherently implied in the use of the word elect and the distorted and erroneous Calvinist characterization of the biblical meaning of the elect.

Offline RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #139 on: Sun Aug 05, 2018 - 07:17:18 »
It is most certainly a disappointment any would read and study God's word and come away with the perverted interpretations contained in the Calvinist Theologies.  Disappointment --  but not a problem.
Before there was a man named John Calvin, there was a man named Martin Luther, another one named John Wycliffe and many others back to Augustine back to apostles and Jesus Christ, all the way to Moses.  The list is endless. Of course, your list is endless as well all the way back to Cain who brought the fruit of his precious LABOR mixed with his heart filled with hatred toward the truth!