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Author Topic: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?  (Read 5125 times)

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Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #210 on: Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 09:18:35 »
This would make an excellent thread apart from this one.

I agree & like you encourage 4WD to start that thread.  ::smile::

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #210 on: Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 09:18:35 »

Offline RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #211 on: Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 10:37:28 »
I am simply flabbergasted
So am I, but because of a different reason.....WHO'S that beautiful hot redhead you have as an icon? If I was only fifty years younger and free.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #211 on: Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 10:37:28 »

Offline RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #212 on: Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 10:44:48 »
I agree & like you encourage 4WD to start that thread.  ::smile::
Brother Tim, I'm back so you can rest, I'll post in the morning, just got back from Atlanta, so I need to rest a little. You are a wonderful brother to have as a co-worker and more gifted than I'm for sure~in a different way, but overall more gifted and very able to defend God's word. You are easy to follow and make a lot more sense than most do. You labor with a very humble, and meek spirit toward all men. 

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #212 on: Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 10:44:48 »

Online AVZ

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #213 on: Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 11:38:43 »
It might help to ask and answer why God created man to begin with.

I believe God created man as an object of His love and for fellowship with Him. From this basis I argue that God loves everybody and wants all saved. Thus, I have to reject all teachings that make out that God wants some to be condemned regardless of their personal choices regarding faith toward God. God would that all be saved, but He gives each person the choice. Man is not a robot nor is he a puppet, nor is he a lump of clay, when it comers to his eternal destiny.

I have to wonder about those who believe God expressly chooses some for condemnation apart from any choice of theirs in that regard. If God chooses thusly, then that is the purpose for which they were born...to be condemned, with God having no intention of wanting them to be saved. If so, then is that why they were created?

And, if yes is the answer to that last question, then why did God create man to begin with?

Rather remarkable you ask these questions because all the answers are found in Romans 9

1. The Potter has the right to make any vessel according to His purpose.
2. The Potter may make vessels as object of His wrath, in order to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy.
3. The objects of His mercy are prepared in advance for glory.

And yet here you are asking why this and why that, why Esau and why Pharaoh.

This is what Paul has to say:
But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did You make me like this?'"

Paul simply says: Look guys, this is how it is. I can't help it, you can't help it.
God makes His vessels in accordance with His plans and His purpose. He has the right to do so, and we humans do not have the right to question it.

Hence all that's left is only one thing...acceptance.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #213 on: Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 11:38:43 »

Offline soterion

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #214 on: Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 12:18:16 »
It might help to ask and answer why God created man to begin with.

I believe God created man as an object of His love and for fellowship with Him. From this basis I argue that God loves everybody and wants all saved. Thus, I have to reject all teachings that make out that God wants some to be condemned regardless of their personal choices regarding faith toward God. God would that all be saved, but He gives each person the choice. Man is not a robot nor is he a puppet, nor is he a lump of clay, when it comers to his eternal destiny.

I have to wonder about those who believe God expressly chooses some for condemnation apart from any choice of theirs in that regard. If God chooses thusly, then that is the purpose for which they were born...to be condemned, with God having no intention of wanting them to be saved. If so, then is that why they were created?

And, if yes is the answer to that last question, then why did God create man to begin with?

Rather remarkable you ask these questions because all the answers are found in Romans 9

1. The Potter has the right to make any vessel according to His purpose.
2. The Potter may make vessels as object of His wrath, in order to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy.
3. The objects of His mercy are prepared in advance for glory.

And yet here you are asking why this and why that, why Esau and why Pharaoh.

This is what Paul has to say:
But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did You make me like this?'"

Paul simply says: Look guys, this is how it is. I can't help it, you can't help it.
God makes His vessels in accordance with His plans and His purpose. He has the right to do so, and we humans do not have the right to question it.

Hence all that's left is only one thing...acceptance.

Well, you didn't actually answer any questions I asked, especially in my post that you quoted.

Also, I didn't ask anything about Esau or Pharaoh. I stated.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #214 on: Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 12:18:16 »



Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #215 on: Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 16:58:50 »
This would make an excellent thread apart from this one.
I agree & like you encourage 4WD to start that thread.  ::smile::
As I said that is not a difficult study at all.  There are any number of web sites that provide you with the capability to run searches on words or phrases.  I suggest you do that read and study what you find.  If, after that, you still wish to start a thread on the subject then we could do that.

But perhaps to make it a little easier for you, I can get you started.


Scripture References

Scriptures containing “God’s will”
 
Exodus 18:15
Mark 3:35
John 7:17
Acts 18:21
Romans 1:10, 8:27,12:2,15:32
2 Corinthians 8:5
I Thessalonians 4:3, 5:18
I Peter 2:15, 3:17, 4:19

Scriptures containing “His will”
 
Deuteronomy 10:10
Ezra 10:11
Psalms 103:21
John 9:31
Acts 22:14
Romans 2:18, 9:19
Ephesians 1:9, 1:11
Colossians 1:9
Hebrews 2:4, 13:21
I John 5:14

Scriptures containing “will of God”
 
Acts 20:28
I Corinthians 1:1
II Corinthians 1:1
Ephesians 1:1, 6:6
Colossians 1:1, 4:12
II Timothy 1:1
Hebrews 10:35
I Peter 4:2
I John 2:20
 
Scriptures containing “will of the Lord”
 
Leviticus 24:12
I Chronicles 13:2
Isaiah 53:10



I do not claim this to be at all complete.  There are many others and there could differences in the various translations, but this should get you started.  And I guess just to state the point I hope you will discover in all of these is that God's will for our lives and for us is not really so much what we do as we live out our lives as how we act in living out our lives.  It's not what but how.




« Last Edit: Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 17:03:45 by 4WD »

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #215 on: Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 16:58:50 »

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #216 on: Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 18:21:58 »
 I'd begin here in 1 Thessalonians 4. I say this because you say "It's not what but how" & I agree.
" 3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: 4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; 5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: 6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. 7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness."

The how would be holiness.

Which would lead me to 1 Peter 1:
"13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy."

And then lead to Hebrews 13:
"14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:"


Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #217 on: Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 18:45:45 »
Brother Tim, I'm back so you can rest, I'll post in the morning, just got back from Atlanta, so I need to rest a little. You are a wonderful brother to have as a co-worker and more gifted than I'm for sure~in a different way, but overall more gifted and very able to defend God's word. You are easy to follow and make a lot more sense than most do. You labor with a very humble, and meek spirit toward all men.

RB, you are very kind to me & I do appreciate your kindness. I'll happily rest, while you resume your thread.  ::smile::

Online Ginger Rella

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #218 on: Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 20:57:51 »
So am I, but because of a different reason.....WHO'S that beautiful hot redhead you have as an icon? If I was only fifty years younger and free.

Why sir, you make me blush  ::blushing:: And these days I find that refreshing. Thanks

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #218 on: Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 20:57:51 »

Online AVZ

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #219 on: Yesterday at 05:20:48 »
I believe God created man as an object of His love and for fellowship with Him. From this basis I argue that God loves everybody and wants all saved. Thus, I have to reject all teachings that make out that God wants some to be condemned regardless of their personal choices regarding faith toward God. God would that all be saved, but He gives each person the choice. Man is not a robot nor is he a puppet, nor is he a lump of clay, when it comers to his eternal destiny.

I think you are forgetting a very important part.
Man has proven to be unable to adhere to God's requirements.
The only reason why anyone is saved, is because God Himself paid the price. As far as humanity is concerned however, we all deserve to be condemned regardless of our personal choices.

Look at it from this point of view:

- God willed that there be angels
- Even though God knew Satan would defy Him, He created Satan anyway
- God willed that there be man
- Even though God knew man would fall, He created him anyway
- Even though God knew man would defy Him, He gave man law
- Because God instituted law, He willed a place for those who would accept Jesus (heaven) and those who would not (hell)
- Every man disobeys and every man should go to hell

See, if God would to stop here and leave things up to "personal choices", none of us would go to heaven.
The whole thing is just inherent to the way God created man, with our dispositions and "free will".
All of the above God willed.

But then God also willed something else, that there would be a way for some to be saved.
Yes, you read this correctly...God did not create a way for all to be saved, He could have, but He did not.
The consequence is that only some will be saved, and God indeed wants all to be saved, but that's not how He willed it to be.
There simply is no way around it. If God creates 1000 people, then all who sin are created for destruction.
Well, that's 100%

You can also look at it the other way.
All humans are created for destruction, because every human sins.
Gods glory is in His willingness to save some to salvation.

And since you already sinned and deserve to be destroyed, whats the problem with God saving you from that?
Is there any reason why you should be entitled to another "personal choice" besides the one you already made?
And if you are not entitled, why should anyone else for that matter be entitled?

So your insinuation that some think "God wants some to be condemned regardless of their personal choices" is incorrect.
The correct statement is that "God wants some to be condemned because of their personal choices".

Offline Jaime

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #220 on: Yesterday at 05:41:28 »
Man's personal choice appropriates the free gift we cannot earn or merit. Soterion said nothing contrary to that. Man's free will IS in play as to the acceptance of that gift

Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #221 on: Yesterday at 05:54:38 »
All humans are created for destruction, because every human sins.
That statement is just plain wrong.  No one was created for destruction.  When your child does something wrong, you correct him.  That doesn't mean that you had the child so that you could correct him.
Quote from: AVZ
Gods glory is in His willingness to save some to salvation.
But God doesn't pick and choose who He will save.  God established a system whereby salvation is made available.  Some will take advantage of that system and be saved, some will not.  There are others who do not know about the system and we really do not know how God will deal with them.
Quote from: AVZ
And since you already sinned and deserve to be destroyed, whats the problem with God saving you from that?
But there are too many who believe that you deserve to be destroyed, not because you have already sinned and deserve it, but because Adam sinned.  That is wrong. The only reason you deserve to be condemned is because you sinned.  You do not deserve to be condemned because of what anyone else has done, including Adam.
Quote from: AVZ
Is there any reason why you should be entitled to another "personal choice" besides the one you already made?
The reason is because God loves you and wants none to be lost.
Quote from: AVZ
The correct statement is that "God wants some to be condemned because of their personal choices".
That statement is absolutely wrong. Some, perhaps most, will be condemned because of their choice.  But that doesn't mean that God wants it.

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #222 on: Yesterday at 08:32:46 »
Man's personal choice appropriates the free gift we cannot earn or merit. Soterion said nothing contrary to that. Man's free will IS in play as to the acceptance of that gift

I don't deny free will.  I also don't deny God's sovereignty.  I think some here are so set against Calvinism that they seemingly reject God's sovereignty and the scriptures that suggest it.

Offline soterion

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #223 on: Yesterday at 08:51:05 »

And since you already sinned and deserve to be destroyed, whats the problem with God saving you from that?
Is there any reason why you should be entitled to another "personal choice" besides the one you already made?
And if you are not entitled, why should anyone else for that matter be entitled?


But people can make another personal choice. Until death, a person has the freewill to change his mind. It is not a matter of entitlement, you strawman master, but of God's grace to grant us choice.

Quote

So your insinuation that some think "God wants some to be condemned regardless of their personal choices" is incorrect.
The correct statement is that "God wants some to be condemned because of their personal choices".

The belief that God wants some people condemned regardless of their personal choices is an accurate description; it is not just an insinuation. You need to learn how to read other's posts more carefully.

Offline soterion

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #224 on: Yesterday at 08:54:43 »
I don't deny free will.  I also don't deny God's sovereignty.  I think some here are so set against Calvinism that they seemingly reject God's sovereignty and the scriptures that suggest it.

On the other hand, I think some here are so set against free will that they seemingly reject all of the scriptures that teach it. I haven't seen anybody here reject God's sovereignty. It's just that it can be taken so far as to reject any free will in man.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #225 on: Yesterday at 09:31:53 »
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Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #226 on: Yesterday at 09:52:43 »
On the other hand, I think some here are so set against free will that they seemingly reject all of the scriptures that teach it. I haven't seen anybody here reject God's sovereignty. It's just that it can be taken so far as to reject any free will in man.
It is worse than that.  Consider Pink's writings on sovereignty (A book recommended by RB in another thread):

The sovereign exercise of God’s mercy-pity shown to the wretched-was displayed when Jehovah became flesh and tabernacled among men. Take one illustration. During one of the feasts of the Jews, the Lord Jesus went up to Jerusalem. He came to the Pool of Bethesda where lay “a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water” (John 5:3). Among this “great multitude” there was “a certain man which had an infirmity thirty and eight years” (verse 5). What happened?

When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?  The impotent man answer him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but when I am coming, another steppeth down before me. Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk. And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked. (John 5:6–9)

Why was this one man singled out from all the others? We are not told that he cried “Lord, have mercy on me.” There is not a word in the narrative that intimates that this man possessed any qualifications that entitled him to receive special favor. Here then was a case of the sovereign exercise of divine mercy, for it was just as easy for Christ to heal the whole of that “great multitude” as this one “certain man.” But He did not. He put forth His power and relieved the wretchedness of this one particular sufferer, and for some reason known only to Himself, He declined to do the same for the others.


The implication here, though it is false, is that since Jesus did not heal the whole of that "great multitude" as this one "certain man" it must be because He didn't want to.  And since He didn't want to heal the rest of them, then He must have wanted the rest that "great multitude of great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water” ” to remain just as they were.  Therefore not only did He want them to remain just as they were, obviously since God is sovereign, it was His desire that they be impotent folk, be blind, be halt, be withered be whatever malady they suffered with. 

That irrational reasoning is carried on throughout Pink's writings.  It gets its worst presentation in Pink's chapter on reprobation.  There Pink asserts that God has not only selected those few that he wants to save, God also has selected the rest to be condemned.  And all of that having nothing to do with the individual who is either being saved or condemned.  It is all simply God's choice and therefore those God wants to save, He saves, and those He doesn't want to save, He condemns.

DISGUSTING.

Online AVZ

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #227 on: Yesterday at 10:27:27 »
But people can make another personal choice. Until death, a person has the freewill to change his mind. It is not a matter of entitlement, you strawman master, but of God's grace to grant us choice.

The belief that God wants some people condemned regardless of their personal choices is an accurate description; it is not just an insinuation. You need to learn how to read other's posts more carefully.

You are stepping over the point is wish to make: the start position in which you and I find ourselves.

When God instituted law, He knew it would be broken.
So your first and foremost question should be: If God wishes all to be saved...why did He issue law?

Now together with issuing law, God needed to create a "reward" and "punishment", so he created heaven and hell.
But then God also knew that nobody would be able to enter heaven, unless He Himself reached out to mankind, paid the price and made heaven accessible.

Point is that by our own choices, we are vessels of destruction. All of us.
Now you seem to see some unfairness in the fact that God would let some indeed go to their destruction. Why?
What if God would not have sent Jesus, and have all of us go to hell? Would you consider that fair? Of course you do.

Yet, you do not deserve to go to heaven. Not even if you made the "right choice".
So you find it acceptable to believe that God would give people what they deserve...yet you see an unfairness if God gives some people what they do not deserve.
But if God would give all people what they do not deserve and everybody would go to heaven, you would find that unreasonable too.

My question: How can you possibly consider that unfair?
See, you argue from the point that because you made a decision to believe in Jesus there is a fairness in you going to heaven.
But that's not at all the case. Yes you decided to follow Jesus, yet when you go to heaven you still get something you do not deserve.
Your choice to follow Jesus still does not entitle you to go to heaven.

So then, those who either refused to follow Jesus or those who never got the opportunity to follow Jesus are equally treated fair if God does not allow them to enter heaven.
Do you consider that unfair? Because you get something they do not get.
So why is it fair these people get what they deserve, and you get what you do not deserve?

Your start position is incorrect.
Your entry into heaven is not created by your choices, it is created by a sovereign God who created a law that He knew people could not keep.
And then He had to die Himself, so you can be set free. How is that fair?
The pre-determination that a whole lot of people will go to hell is not by their choices, but by God who willed it so.

So in the end what there will be is hell filled with people who deserve to be there, and heaven filled with people who do not deserve to be there.
Then what exactly is your problem if God indeed selected you to be in the group who gets what he does not deserve?
I do not see how you can have a problem with that, and not have a problem with going to heaven whilst you don't deserve it.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 10:31:45 by AVZ »

Offline RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #228 on: Yesterday at 12:59:19 »
DISGUSTING
Then you must think Romans 9:13-24 is really disgusting! We shall cover these scriptures this week.

Offline RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #229 on: Yesterday at 13:04:20 »
I keep seeing this idea thrown around as if it is the answer all when there are disagreements, whether those disagreements are on this topic, or on, "What about those who have never heard the gospel?" and other topics. We tend to finalize our thoughts with the belief that God can do whatever He wants.
I want to come later and address this post of yours. I did so this morning only to lose it with a hit of a wrong button. So, I need time to regather my thoughts and try this once more. Later....RB

Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #230 on: Yesterday at 13:57:44 »
Then you must think Romans 9:13-24 is really disgusting! We shall cover these scriptures this week.
I have no problem with Romans 9:13-24 whatsoever.  But I certainly do have a problem with the false Reformed Theology interpretation of Romans 8:13-24. It follows in the footsteps of Pink's disgusting view displayed in his book.

Offline RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #231 on: Yesterday at 15:05:55 »
I have no problem with Romans 9:13-24 whatsoever.
We shall indeed see.

Offline soterion

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #232 on: Yesterday at 20:52:35 »
You are stepping over the point is wish to make: the start position in which you and I find ourselves.

When God instituted law, He knew it would be broken.
So your first and foremost question should be: If God wishes all to be saved...why did He issue law?

Now together with issuing law, God needed to create a "reward" and "punishment", so he created heaven and hell.
But then God also knew that nobody would be able to enter heaven, unless He Himself reached out to mankind, paid the price and made heaven accessible.

Point is that by our own choices, we are vessels of destruction. All of us.
Now you seem to see some unfairness in the fact that God would let some indeed go to their destruction. Why?
What if God would not have sent Jesus, and have all of us go to hell? Would you consider that fair? Of course you do.

Yet, you do not deserve to go to heaven. Not even if you made the "right choice".
So you find it acceptable to believe that God would give people what they deserve...yet you see an unfairness if God gives some people what they do not deserve.
But if God would give all people what they do not deserve and everybody would go to heaven, you would find that unreasonable too.

My question: How can you possibly consider that unfair?
See, you argue from the point that because you made a decision to believe in Jesus there is a fairness in you going to heaven.
But that's not at all the case. Yes you decided to follow Jesus, yet when you go to heaven you still get something you do not deserve.
Your choice to follow Jesus still does not entitle you to go to heaven.

So then, those who either refused to follow Jesus or those who never got the opportunity to follow Jesus are equally treated fair if God does not allow them to enter heaven.
Do you consider that unfair? Because you get something they do not get.
So why is it fair these people get what they deserve, and you get what you do not deserve?

Your start position is incorrect.
Your entry into heaven is not created by your choices, it is created by a sovereign God who created a law that He knew people could not keep.
And then He had to die Himself, so you can be set free. How is that fair?
The pre-determination that a whole lot of people will go to hell is not by their choices, but by God who willed it so.

So in the end what there will be is hell filled with people who deserve to be there, and heaven filled with people who do not deserve to be there.
Then what exactly is your problem if God indeed selected you to be in the group who gets what he does not deserve?
I do not see how you can have a problem with that, and not have a problem with going to heaven whilst you don't deserve it.

Your post is so full of, "You're saying this" and "You're saying that" that I can't even begin to answer. I would have to respond to almost every single line. The point being that you are again making me out to think or say things I am not thinking or saying.

And you wonder why I call you strawman.

As to your position that God predetermined so many to go to hell apart from their choices (yes, you said it yourself) is so wrong.

Offline soterion

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #233 on: Yesterday at 21:01:42 »
I keep seeing this idea thrown around as if it is the answer all when there are disagreements, whether those disagreements are on this topic, or on, "What about those who have never heard the gospel?" and other topics. We tend to finalize our thoughts with the belief that God can do whatever He wants.


I want to come later and address this post of yours. I did so this morning only to lose it with a hit of a wrong button. So, I need time to regather my thoughts and try this once more. Later....RB

Okay.

Btw, I don't know why you highlighted that part of the quote. I certainly was not trying to bring up that topic here or trying to make any other special point about it. It is just one out of a few topics where people use the "God can do whatever He wants" kind of statements to answer difficult questions, particularly when those people don't know or don't like how scripture answers those questions.

Online AVZ

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As to your position that God predetermined so many to go to hell apart from their choices (yes, you said it yourself) is so wrong.

And why is that wrong?
God created hell, didn't He? Then what's the use of hell if nobody is in it?
Just for the fact that God instituted law, which would cause man to fall, He pre-determined that there would be people who go to hell.

But you are being inconsistent, because God also created heaven.
And you know the people in heaven will be there undeserved, so God also pre-determined that.
The only reason why you go to heaven is not because of your choices. Your choices actually qualify you for hell.
The only choice why you go to heaven is God's choice to sent Christ to die for your sins, and He chooses to apply that sacrifice to those He saves.

Offline RB

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As to your position that God predetermined so many to go to hell "APART" from their choices (yes, you said it yourself) is so wrong.
Red letters were inserted by me, using your words. I'll start here and back up and pick up your post to me.

Sir, it is you and your camp that creates an "Strawman argument" and then argues with the strawman, as though we are saying what you have created us saying~NOT on the teaching of your opponents on "what" they are teaching, at least this is true toward me with you and 4WD.
Quote from: soterion Reply #232 on: Yesterday at 20:52:35
As to your position that God predetermined so many to go to hell "APART" from their choices
Apart from? No, here you are building (adding to it actually) your strawman. We do not teach that God has not given man a choice, as I have said MANY TIMES OVER, God created Adam and Eve unright and gave them EVERYTHING that is essential for man's complete happiness~Adam in a world FREE of sin, with a beautiful naked wife at his side adoring him and Adam adoring his beautiful wife~with only one simple commandment to keep~with a FREE WILL unbiased toward sin and the lust thereof~the only thing Adam did not have was God securing him in that state of innocence, purity, in knowledge and true understanding....God left Adam and his wife to himself, and we all know the sad outcome and know it and feel it even until our day at the height of its curse.

Adam stood as the head of his posterity and represented all that would ever come from him through natural generation. What Adam did............so did every man born through the generation of Adam likewise did as though they were actually there doing the same~even so, the second Adam stood as the representative of his seed, and his righteousness that he perfectly possess, was imputeth to his body, as though they actually lived perfectly in word, deed, and thoughts, from conception to death......Christ being the head of his body. 

So, your strawman argument is not preached by those who know and understand the doctrine concerning the first and second Adam, and their disobedience and perfect obedience being IMPUTETH to their respective seed. ALL MEN HAD A PERFECT OPPORTUNITY IN ADAM, once father Adam sinned he took his posterity with him INTO CAPTIVITY TO SATAN AND SIN and became a servant to both.

Disprove this doctrine NOT your strawman that you folks have created to AVOID the truth of what is truly taught.

Offline RB

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I keep seeing this idea thrown around as if it is the answer all when there are disagreements, whether those disagreements are on this topic, or on, "What about those who have never heard the gospel?" and other topics. We tend to finalize our thoughts with the belief that God can do whatever He wants.
Well, do not be concern about me, for I do not finalize my thoughts on any subject with an unknown and unproven statement, but speak when I know I can prove my statement with God's testimony, and If I can not, then I will not speak. But your side is notorious for doing just what you are complaining about.
Quote from: Your champion Goliath a.k.a. 4WD on: Yesterday at 05:54:38
there are others who do not know about the system and we really do not know how God will deal with them.
Well, now, there you have it your champion caught with his pants down saying what you are basically arguing against!

Well, we DO KNOW, because of the two Adams! All in the first Adam fell into condemnation and the first and second death~all that were chosen in Christ are delivered from condemnation in the very same manner.....by the obedience and righteousness of Jesus Christ! This is the ONLY grounds whereby one inherit eternal life in the world to come. There are no exceptions, you may want to create other exceptions but there is NO other way into eternal life then THROUGH Christ being made a surety for an individual.
Quote from: soterion Reply #193 on: Sat Aug 11, 2018 - 19:18:52
Well, of a truth God can do whatever He wants. The problem I have with that statement is that God will do what He says and He will not do what He says He will not do.
Agreed
Quote from: soterion Reply #193 on: Sat Aug 11, 2018 - 19:18:52
God actually can bind Himself to His promises and to His own word.
Well, it is not that God "can" it is that he ACTUALLY HAS, which is the very ground that secures one's right to eternal life! Read Psalm 89 where David praises God's faithfulness based upon God's oath and promises to the elect seed of Jesus Christ. Also...
Quote from: The Holy Ghost
Hebrews 6:13-18~For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:"
The gift of eternal life to the elect are secured by two immutable acts of God~promises of grace and his oath to support those promises. Circumcision nor water baptism neither secures our right to eternal life, God secured that for his people by a promise of grace and supported by his oath.  There will be millions that will inherit eternal life that has never been circumcised or baptized in water BOTH from OT and under the NT. I feel very secure in those acts of God toward me~not so much by weak faith and acts of righteousness (be whatever they may be) which comes short of God's glory every day that I live in this world, even though it grieves me.
Quote from: soterion Reply #193 on: Sat Aug 11, 2018 - 19:18:52
Since scripture tells us that God wants all saved and that He wants all to repent, and that He does not take pleasure in the death of a sinner, and that there is rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents, and finally that He wants the gospel to go out to every person and that He wants all to believe and be baptized, then I am not going to sign off on the deaths of so many by saying God can do whatever He wants, as if He wants many to die in their sins. No, He does not want that; He tells us that He does not want that.
Well, the scriptures do NOT say that God wants all to be saved, that's your personal opinion based upon a lie you have come to believe in. What God wills comes to pass just as he wills it to be so.
Quote from: Nebuchadnezzar
Daniel 4:34-35~"And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"
God does according to his will, and his word does not return back to him void!
Quote from: Isaiah
Isaiah 55:11~"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."
The god of the twenty-first century is a weak, helpless, impotent god, not worthy to be worship, certainly not to be fear! You can have him, I'll take Jehovah the God of Moses~that delivered Moses and Israel from Egypt with a mighty hand as he gloriously displayed.
Quote from: soterion Reply #193 on: Sat Aug 11, 2018 - 19:18:52
God is fair and we have the right to expect that of Him. He did not create so many just so that most will be condemned because He wills it so. He actually does not will it so. He wants people to repent and be saved. If that is the case, then why will people be condemned? Because God has the right to demand justice concerning those who willfully choose to not believe and obey. God has provided in His sovereignty that people have a choice regarding how each will respond to whatever He has revealed to them. God has provided in His sovereignty that any and all who believe will be saved, and He desires that for all. God has provided in His sovereignty that those who do not believe will be condemned. Only with respect to the satisfaction of His justice does God will it that the condemned should die, but He would they all rather repent unto life.
Later....RB
« Last Edit: Today at 06:58:39 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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We do not teach that God has not given man a choice,
Yes, RB, that is precisely what you teach.  You teach that God gave Adam and Eve a choice and only Adam and Eve.  You teach that God hasn't given you or me or anyone after Adam and Eve a choice.
Quote from: RB
God left Adam and his wife to himself, and we all know the sad outcome and know it and feel it even until our day at the height of its curse.
You and some others like to talk a lot about the curse.  What curse?  Please provide the biblical evidence of the curse you are speaking of.
Quote from: RB
Adam stood as the head of his posterity and represented all that would ever come from him through natural generation. What Adam did............so did every man born through the generation of Adam likewise did as though they were actually there doing the same~even so, the second Adam stood as the representative of his seed, and his righteousness that he perfectly possess, was imputeth to his body, as though they actually lived perfectly in word, deed, and thoughts, from conception to death......Christ being the head of his body. 
Adam represented of every man but Jesus represented only His seed.  That is not what the Bible says and you know it. Every man that was represented by Adam was represented by Jesus.  You have to change the meanings of the words "all" and "many" mid-sentence to make you theology work.

As to your statement about "imputeth to his body"; neither sin nor righteousness is imputed to the body of anyone.  Both sin and righteousness are aspect attributed to the spirit.  That you fail to understand that is perhaps just another breakdown and deficiency of the Reformed Theology nonsense.
Quote from: RB
So, your strawman argument is not preached by those who know and understand the doctrine concerning the first and second Adam, and their disobedience and perfect obedience being IMPUTETH to their respective seed.
There is nothing in the Bible that attributes the disobedience and perfect obedience to their respective seed.  That is your strawman.  It simply does not and cannot stand.  You rewrite Scripture to make it fit a false theology.
Quote from: RB
ALL MEN HAD A PERFECT OPPORTUNITY IN ADAM, once father Adam sinned he took his posterity with him INTO CAPTIVITY TO SATAN AND SIN and became a servant to both.
If you understand the meaning of the word "opportunity", then you must know that statement is absolutely ludicrous.  That is but one more statement than you cannot find in the Bible.  You can perhaps find it in the writings of Augustine, Calvin and some others; but you cannot find it in the Bible.
Quote from: RB[size=10pt
Disprove this doctrine NOT your strawman that you folks have created to AVOID the truth of what is truly taught.[/size]
All that is needed to disprove that doctrine is to read what the Bible says  instead of how you rewrite it in order to match your false theology.

 

     
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