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This would make an excellent thread apart from this one.

I agree & like you encourage 4WD to start that thread. 

Quote from: soterion on Sun Aug 12, 2018 - 09:04:40

It might help to ask and answer why God created man to begin with.

I believe God created man as an object of His love and for fellowship with Him. From this basis I argue that God loves everybody and wants all saved. Thus, I have to reject all teachings that make out that God wants some to be condemned regardless of their personal choices regarding faith toward God. God would that all be saved, but He gives each person the choice. Man is not a robot nor is he a puppet, nor is he a lump of clay, when it comers to his eternal destiny.

I have to wonder about those who believe God expressly chooses some for condemnation apart from any choice of theirs in that regard. If God chooses thusly, then that is the purpose for which they were born...to be condemned, with God having no intention of wanting them to be saved. If so, then is that why they were created?

And, if yes is the answer to that last question, then why did God create man to begin with?

Rather remarkable you ask these questions because all the answers are found in Romans 9

1. The Potter has the right to make any vessel according to His purpose.
2. The Potter may make vessels as object of His wrath, in order to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy.
3. The objects of His mercy are prepared in advance for glory.

And yet here you are asking why this and why that, why Esau and why Pharaoh.

This is what Paul has to say:
But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did You make me like this?'"

Paul simply says: Look guys, this is how it is. I can't help it, you can't help it.
God makes His vessels in accordance with His plans and His purpose. He has the right to do so, and we humans do not have the right to question it.

Hence all that's left is only one thing...acceptance.

So am I, but because of a different reason.....WHO'S that beautiful hot redhead you have as an icon? If I was only fifty years younger and free.

Man's personal choice appropriates the free gift we cannot earn or merit. Soterion said nothing contrary to that. Man's free will IS in play as to the acceptance of that gift

I don't deny free will.  I also don't deny God's sovereignty.  I think some here are so set against Calvinism that they seemingly reject God's sovereignty and the scriptures that suggest it.

On the other hand, I think some here are so set against free will that they seemingly reject all of the scriptures that teach it. I haven't seen anybody here reject God's sovereignty. It's just that it can be taken so far as to reject any free will in man.

DISGUSTING

Then you must think Romans 9:13-24 is really disgusting! We shall cover these scriptures this week.

You are stepping over the point is wish to make: the start position in which you and I find ourselves.

When God instituted law, He knew it would be broken.
So your first and foremost question should be: If God wishes all to be saved...why did He issue law?

Now together with issuing law, God needed to create a "reward" and "punishment", so he created heaven and hell.
But then God also knew that nobody would be able to enter heaven, unless He Himself reached out to mankind, paid the price and made heaven accessible.

Point is that by our own choices, we are vessels of destruction. All of us.
Now you seem to see some unfairness in the fact that God would let some indeed go to their destruction. Why?
What if God would not have sent Jesus, and have all of us go to hell? Would you consider that fair? Of course you do.

Yet, you do not deserve to go to heaven. Not even if you made the "right choice".
So you find it acceptable to believe that God would give people what they deserve...yet you see an unfairness if God gives some people what they do not deserve.
But if God would give all people what they do not deserve and everybody would go to heaven, you would find that unreasonable too.

My question: How can you possibly consider that unfair?
See, you argue from the point that because you made a decision to believe in Jesus there is a fairness in you going to heaven.
But that's not at all the case. Yes you decided to follow Jesus, yet when you go to heaven you still get something you do not deserve.
Your choice to follow Jesus still does not entitle you to go to heaven.

So then, those who either refused to follow Jesus or those who never got the opportunity to follow Jesus are equally treated fair if God does not allow them to enter heaven.
Do you consider that unfair? Because you get something they do not get.
So why is it fair these people get what they deserve, and you get what you do not deserve?

Your start position is incorrect.
Your entry into heaven is not created by your choices, it is created by a sovereign God who created a law that He knew people could not keep.
And then He had to die Himself, so you can be set free. How is that fair?
The pre-determination that a whole lot of people will go to hell is not by their choices, but by God who willed it so.

So in the end what there will be is hell filled with people who deserve to be there, and heaven filled with people who do not deserve to be there.
Then what exactly is your problem if God indeed selected you to be in the group who gets what he does not deserve?
I do not see how you can have a problem with that, and not have a problem with going to heaven whilst you don't deserve it.

As to your position that God predetermined so many to go to hell apart from their choices (yes, you said it yourself) is so wrong.

I keep seeing this idea thrown around as if it is the answer all when there are disagreements, whether those disagreements are on this topic, or on, "What about those who have never heard the gospel?" and other topics. We tend to finalize our thoughts with the belief that God can do whatever He wants.

there are others who do not know about the system and we really do not know how God will deal with them.

Well, of a truth God can do whatever He wants. The problem I have with that statement is that God will do what He says and He will not do what He says He will not do.

God actually can bind Himself to His promises and to His own word.

Hebrews 6:13-18~For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:"

Since scripture tells us that God wants all saved and that He wants all to repent, and that He does not take pleasure in the death of a sinner, and that there is rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents, and finally that He wants the gospel to go out to every person and that He wants all to believe and be baptized, then I am not going to sign off on the deaths of so many by saying God can do whatever He wants, as if He wants many to die in their sins. No, He does not want that; He tells us that He does not want that.

Daniel 4:34-35~"And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"

Isaiah 55:11~"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

God is fair and we have the right to expect that of Him. He did not create so many just so that most will be condemned because He wills it so. He actually does not will it so. He wants people to repent and be saved. If that is the case, then why will people be condemned? Because God has the right to demand justice concerning those who willfully choose to not believe and obey. God has provided in His sovereignty that people have a choice regarding how each will respond to whatever He has revealed to them. God has provided in His sovereignty that any and all who believe will be saved, and He desires that for all. God has provided in His sovereignty that those who do not believe will be condemned. Only with respect to the satisfaction of His justice does God will it that the condemned should die, but He would they all rather repent unto life.

Quote from: soterion on Mon Aug 13, 2018 - 20:52:35

As to your position that God predetermined so many to go to hell apart from their choices (yes, you said it yourself) is so wrong.

And why is that wrong?
God created hell, didn't He? Then what's the use of hell if nobody is in it?
Just for the fact that God instituted law, which would cause man to fall, He pre-determined that there would be people who go to hell.

But you are being inconsistent, because God also created heaven.
And you know the people in heaven will be there undeserved, so God also pre-determined that.
The only reason why you go to heaven is not because of your choices. Your choices actually qualify you for hell.
The only choice why you go to heaven is God's choice to sent Christ to die for your sins, and He chooses to apply that sacrifice to those He saves.

Nope, you very much do teach that people do not have any choice regarding heaven or hell; who goes where is God’s choice alone. You have said it so many times that your denial here is a shock.

That is very much incorrect.
I talk for myself, but am rather convinced RB will agree: what I am saying is that once humans are given choice, they WILL choose evil.
Every human being, you and I included only have one destination based on our choices: hell.
God does give us choices, but we humans ALWAYS choose wrong.

That's why if God would really judge us according to our choices, we would all go to hell.
It was however God's choice not to apply to you the punishment you deserve for your choices.
But in order to do that God had to come down Himself and suffer your punishment.
The fact that heaven is an option for you is 100% God's choice.

You are not being saved by your choices, you are being saved by God convincing you to take make the right choice.
You cannot even convince yourself, it is the Holy Spirit who convinces you.
John 16:8 "And when He comes, He will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:"

......what I am saying is that once humans are given choice, they WILL choose evil.