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Author Topic: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?  (Read 8150 times)

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Offline soterion

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #245 on: Wed Aug 15, 2018 - 08:26:54 »
Quote from: The apostle Paul
Ephesians 1:4~According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"
In the eternal phase of our salvation we were chosen IN HIM "way before" water baptism put us IN HIM.


God predetermined the plan of the salvation of mankind, not which individuals will be saved. Also, He predetermined that those who believe and are in Him (by their faith) will be holy and without blame before Him.

Quote

Do you really want a choice AFTER the fall for yourself, KNOWING that you are born with a depraved heart that is in bondage to SIN AND SATAN because the only choice you will make is to serve sin until God quickens a person from being dead in trespasses and sins. But this takes us in another direction, concerning the bondage of man's will to sin and the lust thereof. I'll go with God's purpose of using the two Adam's to be our representative before his law. Later.....RB

P.S. "IF" you want to believe that man is not born depraved then you have two witnesses against you~first, and foremost, God's word; secondly, HISTORY prove that ALL are sinners, and to the degree that God leaves them to their own depraved heart, will be the degree that they go into deeper into sin and away from God, the only source of truth.

Of course, it all has to start with the false teaching that we are all born sinful, in sin, condemned, and hated by God. This is not disagreement with scripture; it is disagreement with your particular view.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #245 on: Wed Aug 15, 2018 - 08:26:54 »

Offline soterion

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #246 on: Wed Aug 15, 2018 - 08:45:35 »

We were created with 5 basic senses.

Sight, hearing, smell, taste and touch.

Every one of these are offensive to life. Offensive because seeing, hearing, touching... and yes often tasting and smelling rev up the senses in very undesireable
and often unGodly ways.


I would suggest that any ungodliness on our part is a choice, and that the five sense can be used for the glory of God as well. God created us with the five physical sense, and so I would not categorize them as "offensive to life." How we use the senses is up to us. Any offensiveness on our part is not because of the five senses, but because of what is in our hearts.

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Every human being, given a choice between something blase  and  "feel good" as it were ... is going to cave at some point in their life and go for that which makes them feel good or enjoy.  And many all of their lives.

Pitfalls.....

For a reason....

WHY?

Well, that's a huge question that can be pondered and discussed for a lifetime. In fact, it may very well be The Question. I think it could be a separate thread since discussing this can lead us way off course from the present discussion.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #246 on: Wed Aug 15, 2018 - 08:45:35 »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #247 on: Wed Aug 15, 2018 - 09:18:09 »
Of course, it all has to start with the false teaching that we are all born sinful, in sin, condemned, and hated by God. This is not disagreement with scripture; it is disagreement with your particular view.

Yes we are all born sinful, in sin and stand condemned before an almighty God.
But I can guarantee you that RB has never, ever stated in any words, shape or form whatsoever that we are born hated by God.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #247 on: Wed Aug 15, 2018 - 09:18:09 »

Offline soterion

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #248 on: Wed Aug 15, 2018 - 11:19:53 »
Yes we are all born sinful, in sin and stand condemned before an almighty God.
But I can guarantee you that RB has never, ever stated in any words, shape or form whatsoever that we are born hated by God.


http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/yogi-would-mind-debating-me-using-your-three-posts/msg1055110829/#msg1055110829

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #248 on: Wed Aug 15, 2018 - 11:19:53 »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #249 on: Wed Aug 15, 2018 - 12:33:44 »



Offline RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #250 on: Wed Aug 15, 2018 - 13:07:25 »
One more time you twist and distort God's word.
Rom 5:18  Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. If you would actually read what that says you would understand that what you believe is false.  But of course you refuse to accept what the Bible says; accepting instead what some men [Augustine. Calvin, etc.] say.
Sir, we spent several posts just recently going verse by verse through Romans 5:12-19, and explained each part carefully and like always your misrepresent what we teach. It's here one can ONCE AGAIN read and prove us wrong:
Quote
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/did-all-mankind-sinned-in-adam/105/
beginning with reply #126~You had your chance there and did not prove our teaching as unbiblical. I refuse to goes back over this in this thread. You accused us of following Augustine and Calvin, yet before them there was Paul, and before Calvin and after him many many more that taught the same. You have EOC and Catholicism as your champions and ALL modern day false cults are in line with you cheering you on~THEY ALL believe just as you believe, and reject Paul, Augustine, and all of the Reformers. But, be it known that we do not follow in the steps the Reformer totally, but much more along the line of the OLD LINE BAPTIST, men like Samuel Richardson, etc. https://www.google.com/search?ei=LGt0W4S2As6uzwKY5LmADg&q=what+is+high+Calvinism+and+who+were+they&oq=what+is+high+Calvinism+and+who+were+they&gs_l=psy-ab.12...30017.41678.0.44493.51.35.1.0.0.0.201.3240.26j8j1.35.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..22.21.1739...35i39k1j0i22i30k1j33i22i29i30k1j33i160k1.0.kKVUF_s6J6g

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #250 on: Wed Aug 15, 2018 - 13:07:25 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #251 on: Wed Aug 15, 2018 - 14:27:39 »
Sir, we spent several posts just recently going verse by verse through Romans 5:12-19, and explained each part carefully and like always your misrepresent what we teach.
No I don't misrepresent what you teach.  You misrepresent what Paul teaches. 

Again Paul says, Rom 5:18  Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

If you would actually read what that says you would know and understand that what you believe is false.   It doesn't say that one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for the elect.  It doesn't say that one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for His seed. It doesn't say the one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for the select few.  It says that one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men

Now for emphasis Paul restates that simply truth again in a slightly different way; Paul says in verse 19,  Rom 5:19  For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

Here again it is the many that were made sinners by Adam's disobedience and it is the many who are made righteous by Jesus' obedience. 

There is simply no way that you can argue rightly that the many made sinners were any different than the many who are made righteous.  Paul stated it twice. You can't accept what Paul teaches only because it makes a mockery of your Total Depravity nonsense.

Again and again you try to convince us that God forms in each and every man a spirit dead in Adam's sin.  God does not do any such thing.  And the very idea that God would do such a thing is a provocation and an offense against Him.

Offline RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #252 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 04:26:22 »
It doesn't say that one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for the elect.  It doesn't say that one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for His seed. It doesn't say the one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for the select few. 
Go back to the thread again and read it~I never said what you are saying that I said, never! Jesus' life FROM conception TO death, in thoughts, words, and deeds, is the ground (and the ONLY grounds) upon which his people are freely justified by the grace of God. I know what I believe and what I teach. The problem is with men like you who adds to what I say. Shame on you.

Offline RB

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #253 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 04:33:01 »
I checked the link. Please be so kind to point me to the place where RB states that we are born hated by God.
Read here what I said:
Quote from: RB
Reply #95 on: Thu Aug 02, 2018 - 05:35:29
Page three.
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 04:41:29 by RB »

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #253 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 04:33:01 »

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #254 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 04:36:35 »
Go back to the thread again and read it~I never said what you are saying that I said, never! Jesus' life FROM conception TO death, in thoughts, words, and deeds, is the ground (and the ONLY grounds) upon which his people are freely justified by the grace of God. I know what I believe and what I teach. The problem is with men like you who adds to what I say. Shame on you.
RB: I find that for the opening verses of Ephesians chapter 2, the term total depravity certainly seems to fit!

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #255 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 04:45:43 »
RB: I find that for the opening verses of Ephesians chapter 2, the term total depravity certainly seems to fit!
It certainly does along with hundreds of scriptures, with many examples, even in the life of children of faith sad to say, even the very best of God's children. Hebrews eleven, every one of them also proved that they themselves lived in a body of SIN and DEATH.  It just did not slowly developed into a body of sin and death, but each was BORN with this body of sin and death.
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 04:48:38 by RB »

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #256 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 04:50:27 »
It certainly does along with hundreds of scriptures, with many examples, even in the life of children of faith sad to say, even the very best of God's children. Hebrews eleven, every one of them also proved that they themselves lived in a body of SIN and DEATH.
The total depravity of the early part of chapter 2 of Ephesians then stands in contrast with the glorious: 'But God, Who is rich in mercy, for the great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)...' (verses 4 & 5).

Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #257 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 06:52:36 »
Go back to the thread again and read it~I never said what you are saying that I said, never! Jesus' life FROM conception TO death, in thoughts, words, and deeds, is the ground (and the ONLY grounds) upon which his people are freely justified by the grace of God. I know what I believe and what I teach. The problem is with men like you who adds to what I say. Shame on you.
I know that you believe that " through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men" (Rom 5:18a) where all men means every man who has ever lived or ever will live. Do you believe that "......through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men" (Rom 5:18b) , where the "all men" here in Rom 5:18b means the same as the "all men" in Rom 5:18a?  No you do not.  Paul obviously did, but you do not.

Paul has just established in Romans 5:13-17 the fact that Christ's one act is different from Adam's sin in many ways. He then returns to the main point he began with in verse 12. He now focuses on the one respect in which the two are equal, namely, the breadth or scope of the effects of the one act of each.  "Just as" Adam's sin had a universal effect, "so also" did the cross of Christ. This point reinforces our assurance that the cross is worthy of our trust.  We need not doubt the all-encompassing and all-sufficient power of the cross of Christ. The message is clear  -- Christ's cross completely cancels the results of Adam's sin.  Paul states that in Romans 5:18 and then repeats it again in a slightly different way in Romans 5:19.

Rom 5:18  Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
Rom 5:19  For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.


But you and the rest of the Original Sin and the Total Depravity advocates reject Paul's teaching there, making some futile irrational [stupid] argument that Paul, speaking by the power of the Holy Spirit, didn't really mean what he said.
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 06:55:35 by 4WD »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #258 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 07:08:49 »
RB: I find that for the opening verses of Ephesians chapter 2, the term total depravity certainly seems to fit!
faaroukfarouk, do you really understand what RB means by the phrase total depravity?  There is no total depravity expressed in the opening verses of Ephesians chapter 2  --  or anywhere else in the whole of Ephesians.  Total depravity says that Ephesians 2 begins with  "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which Adam walked, following....."

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #259 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 07:09:36 »
I know that you believe that " through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men" (Rom 5:18a) where all men means every man who has ever lived or ever will live. Do you believe that "......through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men" (Rom 5:18b) , where the "all men" here in Rom 5:18b means the same as the "all men" in Rom 5:18a?  No you do not.  Paul obviously did, but you do not.

Paul has just established in Romans 5:13-17 the fact that Christ's one act is different from Adam's sin in many ways. He then returns to the main point he began with in verse 12. He now focuses on the one respect in which the two are equal, namely, the breadth or scope of the effects of the one act of each.  "Just as" Adam's sin had a universal effect, "so also" did the cross of Christ. This point reinforces our assurance that the cross is worthy of our trust.  We need not doubt the all-encompassing and all-sufficient power of the cross of Christ. The message is clear  -- Christ's cross completely cancels the results of Adam's sin.  Paul states that in Romans 5:18 and then repeats it again in a slightly different way in Romans 5:19.

Rom 5:18  Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
Rom 5:19  For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.


But you and the rest of the Original Sin and the Total Depravity advocates reject Paul's teaching there, making some futile irrational [stupid] argument that Paul, speaking by the power of the Holy Spirit, didn't really mean what he said.
Well, faith is the key to the effect of the Cross being applied to our sin.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #260 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 07:12:06 »
Well, faith is the key to the effect of the Cross being applied to our sin.
Romans 5:18-19 is not speaking about the cross being applied to our sin.  It is comparing only the effect of the cross with the effect of Adam's sin.  Paul follows that and speaks about our sin in chapter six and following.

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #261 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 07:15:34 »
faaroukfarouk, do you really understand what RB means by the phrase total depravity?  There is no total depravity expressed in the opening verses of Ephesians chapter 2  --  or anywhere else in the whole of Ephesians.  Total depravity says that Ephesians 2 begins with  "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which Adam walked, following....."
I'm not sure of your point, actually...

Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #262 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 07:32:14 »
I'm not sure of your point, actually...
Just as I thought.  If you are not sure of my point, then I am sure that you do not know what RB means when he speaks about Total Depravity.

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #263 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 07:36:35 »
Just as I thought.  If you are not sure of my point, then I am sure that you do not know what RB means when he speaks about Total Depravity.
All I can say is that the beginning of Ephesians 2 is exactly the sort of passage that is used to describe what total depravity has meant historically.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #264 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 07:41:56 »
Go back to the thread again and read it~I never said what you are saying that I said, never! Jesus' life FROM conception TO death, in thoughts, words, and deeds, is the ground (and the ONLY grounds) upon which his people are freely justified by the grace of God. I know what I believe and what I teach. The problem is with men like you who adds to what I say. Shame on you.

RB, the problem as I read it is not just do men like him adds to what you say, but seemingly also do that to scripture. NOOOO I am not saying they add to scripture, or take away from it..... but they tend to ... how can I say this.... ummmm... manipulate verses in making certain points.

I have been told but most on this thread ... escluding farouk and yourself that I tend to use a verse, singularly to make my point when I need to take the enirety of the NT collectively.  ( A definite point for another thread)

And I think that stems from one reading something and assuming   ... ASSUMING.... there is a meaning there that is not.

I understand exactly what you said. But when it flies in the face of someone who "believes" something differently, then defenses are up and well........ the rest need not be said

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #265 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 07:50:58 »
Ginger Rella,

In Romans 5:18 Paul says,  Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.   When you read that verse, do you think the "all men" in the first part of that sentence means the same thing as the "all men" in the second part of that sentence?

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #266 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 08:35:47 »
Ginger Rella,

In Romans 5:18 Paul says,  Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.   When you read that verse, do you think the "all men" in the first part of that sentence means the same thing as the "all men" in the second part of that sentence?
All in Adam die, and all in Christ shall be made alive. Not everyone is in Christ; this is why we need to preach the Gospel and urge sinners to believe.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #267 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 08:43:17 »
All I can say is that the beginning of Ephesians 2 is exactly the sort of passage that is used to describe what total depravity has meant historically.
The beginning of Ephesians 2 doesn't describe total depravity, original sin, or any other false doctrine.  The beginning of Ephesians 2 says nothing whatsoever about Adam's sin.  In fact there is nothing in all of Ephesians 2 or in all of Ephesians that describes anything about Adam or Adam's sin.

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #268 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 08:45:12 »
The beginning of Ephesians 2 doesn't describe total depravity, original sin, or any other false doctrine.  The beginning of Ephesians 2 says nothing whatsoever about Adam's sin.  In fact there is nothing in all of Ephesians 2 or in all of Ephesians that describes anything about Adam or Adam's sin.
"...walked according to the course of this world ...fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind ...children of wrath, even as others..."

Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #269 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 08:54:58 »
"...walked according to the course of this world ...fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind ...children of wrath, even as others..."
That is speaking about us, not Adam.

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins  in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air,

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #270 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 08:55:40 »
That is speaking about us, not Adam.

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins  in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air,

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--

I don't follow your point.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #271 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 09:04:36 »
I don't follow your point.
We were dead in our trespasses and sins.  We were not dead in Adam's trespasses and sins.  God does not condemn anyone for the sins of another, including the sins of Adam.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #272 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 09:17:22 »
Ginger Rella,

In Romans 5:18 Paul says,  Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.   When you read that verse, do you think the "all men" in the first part of that sentence means the same thing as the "all men" in the second part of that sentence?

How convenient to avoid verse 17 and 19 which state

17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners( note:it says the many)  , so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.(rinse and repeat)

How convenient to avoid stating that original texts would have had this most likely as one big run on sentence with out the paragraphs, punctuation, and/or capitalization

SO... based on that... YES... a resounding yes to believing VS 18. As it is one book and one chapter, all inclusive.

What I meant, and you well know it, is that those of you who do this would come back and say that in addition to Romans you need to read the same in every book that has the same... even though they were not written at the same time, to draw conclusions that whatever oneverse says somewhere, it is meant to be the same throughout..... and I submit that different times can offer different things.


Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #273 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 09:22:48 »
We were dead in our trespasses and sins.  We were not dead in Adam's trespasses and sins.  God does not condemn anyone for the sins of another, including the sins of Adam.
I don't follow your logic, because it says '...in Adam all die...'

Offline soterion

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #274 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 09:43:35 »
I don't follow your logic, because it says '...in Adam all die...'

The only passages I have seen being brought up here recently are Romans 5 and Ephesians 2. Where does it say in either that, "...in Adam all die..."

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #275 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 09:48:29 »
The only passages I have seen being brought up here recently are Romans 5 and Ephesians 2. Where does it say in either that, "...in Adam all die..."
Good point. 1 Corinthians 5.22 is a very similar verse to Romans 5.17 and surrounding verses.

Offline soterion

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #276 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 10:12:00 »
Good point. 1 Corinthians 5.22 is a very similar verse to Romans 5.17 and surrounding verses.

Ah, okay. ::smile::

Well, take a look at the second half of that sentence in 1 Cor 15:22. It says that in Christ shall all be made alive. Going by the context of the whole chapter, I have to understand 1 Cor 15:22 to be talking chiefly about physical death and physical resurrection. Of a truth the physical death of all is due to Adam and of a truth Christ will resurrect all prior to the judgment (John 5:28-29). If the spiritual condition of all was being spoken of instead of the physical, then the passage would be teaching Universalism.

I noticed that you had earlier posted the following: All in Adam die, and all in Christ shall be made alive. Not everyone is in Christ; This is not what the passage is saying. It is saying that all shall die and all shall be made alive; the cause of all dying is found in Adam and the cause of all being made alive is found in Christ.

In contrast, Romans 5:17 and surrounding verses are dealing more with spiritual life and death. The two passages are not dealing with the same things.

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #277 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 10:16:55 »
Ah, okay. ::smile::

Well, take a look at the second half of that sentence in 1 Cor 15:22. It says that in Christ shall all be made alive. Going by the context of the whole chapter, I have to understand 1 Cor 15:22 to be talking chiefly about physical death and physical resurrection. Of a truth the physical death of all is due to Adam and of a truth Christ will resurrect all prior to the judgment (John 5:28-29). If the spiritual condition of all was being spoken of instead of the physical, then the passage would be teaching Universalism.

I noticed that you had earlier posted the following: All in Adam die, and all in Christ shall be made alive. Not everyone is in Christ; This is not what the passage is saying. It is saying that all shall die and all shall be made alive; the cause of all dying is found in Adam and the cause of all being made alive is found in Christ.

In contrast, Romans 5:17 and surrounding verses are dealing more with spiritual life and death. The two passages are not dealing with the same things.
I don't see either passage teaching universal salvation, though.

Offline 4WD

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #278 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 10:24:21 »
I don't see either passage teaching universal salvation, though.
Neither do I.  I haven't said anything about the passage teaching universal salvation.  The Bible doesn't teach it; I don't believe it; I don't teach it.

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Re: Yogi, would you consider debating me using your three posts?
« Reply #279 on: Thu Aug 16, 2018 - 10:36:39 »
How convenient to avoid verse 17 and 19 which state

17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners( note:it says the many)  , so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.(rinse and repeat)

How convenient to avoid stating that original texts would have had this most likely as one big run on sentence with out the paragraphs, punctuation, and/or capitalization

SO... based on that... YES... a resounding yes to believing VS 18. As it is one book and one chapter, all inclusive.

What I meant, and you well know it, is that those of you who do this would come back and say that in addition to Romans you need to read the same in every book that has the same... even though they were not written at the same time, to draw conclusions that whatever oneverse says somewhere, it is meant to be the same throughout..... and I submit that different times can offer different things.

Verses 13-17 are parenthetical to the passage.  The KJV and some other translations indicate that explicitly.  Most commentarians agree on that. 

And verse 19, as I indicated previously is essentially a repeat of verse 18.  The "many" in verse 19 who were made sinners are the same "many" who are made righteous.

Go back and read my reply #257.