Author Topic: “You Will Always Have The Poor With You” (Read 886 times)

Reformer · « **on:** Fri Nov 20, 2020 - 20:50:37 »

REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_______________________________

“You Will Always Have The Poor
With You”

A few weeks ago, I went grocery shopping at one of our local stores. In the first isle, I noticed a poorly-dressed lady with no make-up toward the end of the isle counting the number of items she had placed inside her food cart. She must have been about 30-35 years old.

Immediately, I got the notion she had only a certain number of dollars to spend. A few minutes later, I saw her in another isle counting her items again. Then the third time I observed the same, but this time she took a couple items out of her cart and put them back where she got them. She had no idea I was watching.

I felt then a need to do something to help her, for my heart was getting heavy just by watching her. She did not appear to be on drugs or high on alcohol but simply a poor woman who was “trying” to buy enough food to feed her children.

I walked over near her while she was counting her cart items the fourth time. I took some money out of my billfold and said to her, “Ma’am, here, please, take this money and use it to buy what you need.” She looked surprised and replied, “No, no, I can’t do that!” I responded, “Yes you can, I want you to take this.”

To help her feel good about accepting it, I added, “I help other people as well.” I then took her hand, placed the money in her palm, and closed her hand. She said, “You’re about to make me cry.” I could see her facial expression and knew she was indeed about to cry.

At that point I had to take control of my own emotions because I, too, was about to cry. She finally accepted it and I gave her a big hug. As she walked away, I felt I should give her my ID card, so I did. She looked at it, read aloud my name, and thanked me again with a big smile. I haven’t seen her since, but when and if I do, I will make it a point to inquire about her financial affairs.

At no time did I feel she was setting me up for a “hit.” She wasn’t even aware I was around until I confronted her. If she had set me up for a “hit,” I would have received a call from her by now asking for more help. That call has not arrived.

At the same store on another visit, I observed a poor-looking Asian fellow—lonely and possibly depressed. I watched him on two other occasions as well. He did not appear to be a “Street beggar.” During this visit, however, I handed him a few dollars and his face lit up like a candle. I said nothing to him except, “Please take this and spend it.”

I am not sharing this to “blow my own horn,” but to encourage others to give freely to the genuinely poor for, as Jesus said, “You will always have the poor with you.”

That you may know, I do not hand out money to just anybody. I see healthy-looking people standing on Street corners holding “sad signs” and begging for money every time I go out. They are “bums.” Never do I give them a dime. For if they are physically and mentally healthy enough to stand for hours on Street corners begging money from the pockets of hard-working taxpayers, they are well-off enough physically to find a job and go to work.

When our Lord said “you will always have the poor with you,” he was not referring Street corner hustlers.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **on:** Fri Nov 20, 2020 - 20:50:37 »

RB · « **Reply #1 on:** Sat Nov 21, 2020 - 04:38:27 »

Quote from: Reformer on Fri Nov 20, 2020 - 20:50:37

“You Will Always Have The Poor With You”

This is what Christians do! There are many ways we can help the poor when God sends them into our paths.

The main reason I hate the BLM, anarchist, socialist, thugs.....reprobates, is their philosophies are SELF CENTERED and antigod/religion which commands us to REMEMBER the poor, be they whites, blacks, Asians, etc. The rich supporting BLM thugs who are blacks themselves do not practice what they demand from the rest of the world!

Christians do not need to be told to remember the poor, they naturally do so by the Spirit of God in them.

Quote from: Reformer on: Yesterday at 20:50:37

That you may know, I do not hand out money to just anybody. I see healthy-looking people standing on Street corners holding “sad signs” and begging for money every time I go out. They are “bums.” Never do I give them a dime. For if they are physically and mentally healthy enough to stand for hours on Street corners begging money from the pockets of hard-working taxpayers, they are well-off enough physically to find a job and go to work.

I have a few times, but do not make it a practice of doing so~there are so many other ways to help the poor. VERY FEW people in America have reasons to stand on street corners begging, very few. But the poor we do have all we need to do is open our eyes and our pockets God will send them our way.

God help us never to forget the poor in the true spirit of following the word of God. God sees the very motion of covetousness in our hearts when we think no one sees!

Reformer · « **Reply #2 on:** Sat Nov 21, 2020 - 10:56:02 »

RB:

Again, I appreciate your comments. I agree, BLM is a movement supported by wealthy liberals—a movement, as you noted, that is self-centered and anti-God.

Buff

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #2 on:** Sat Nov 21, 2020 - 10:56:02 »

johntwayne · « **Reply #3 on:** Sat Nov 21, 2020 - 14:30:01 »

There is a street begger in our city that is obviously mentally and physically challenged. I believe he is worthy of support.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #3 on:** Sat Nov 21, 2020 - 14:30:01 »

4WD · « **Reply #4 on:** Sat Nov 21, 2020 - 15:40:09 »

Quote from: Reformer on Sat Nov 21, 2020 - 10:56:02

RB:

Again, I appreciate your comments. I agree, BLM is a movement supported by wealthy liberals—a movement, as you noted, that is self-centered and anti-God.

Buff

BLM was started by two self-proclaimed Marxists. Marxism is the fundamental basis for all Communist, Socialist, Fascist, and Nazi governments of the last 100+ years throughout the world. Look up their web site. It presents them as clearly Communist-based even while changing [downplaying] some of the more noxious positions. They are support by all the radical hard Leftists and most of today's democrat leadership. It tells you all you really need to know about today's democrat party.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #4 on:** Sat Nov 21, 2020 - 15:40:09 »

Reformer · « **Reply #5 on:** Sat Nov 21, 2020 - 19:33:33 »

johntwayne:

"There is a street beggar in our city that is obviously mentally and physically challenged. I believe he is worthy of support."

Of course among the many Street corner hustlers, we will occasionally find one who authentically deserves assistance. But the rank-and-file are fraudulent.

A few months ago, I did a column on how to ascertain the difference and posted it here. You might recall some of its contents.

Buff

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #5 on:** Sat Nov 21, 2020 - 19:33:33 »

RB · « **Reply #6 on:** Sun Nov 22, 2020 - 04:46:45 »

Quote from: johntwayne on Sat Nov 21, 2020 - 14:30:01

There is a street begger in our city that is obviously mentally and physically challenged. I believe he is worthy of support.

There is a few without question, that's why I said that I have and still do help some, but the numbers are fewer than many years ago, when I was young and naive about folks who have mastered the art of professional panhandling. Besides, as a Christian, I had rather err on the side of mercy, than having a covetous spirit, a spirit that cannot be in touch with others infirmities, and feeblemindedness.

4WD · « **Reply #7 on:** Sun Nov 22, 2020 - 05:34:18 »

Buff, I don't think Jesus' statement that "you always have the poor with you" was a plea to care for the poor. Clearly in other instances of speaking on the subject Jesus certainly indicated that we should do what we can for them, but that is not what Jesus was talking about there (Matt 25:11; Mark 14:7; John 12:8).

RB · « **Reply #8 on:** Sun Nov 22, 2020 - 05:45:51 »

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Nov 22, 2020 - 05:34:18

Buff, I don't think Jesus' statement that "you always have the poor with you" was a plea to care for the poor. Clearly in other instances of speaking on the subject Jesus certainly indicated that we should do what we can for them, but that is not what Jesus was talking about there (Matt 25:11; Mark 14:7; John 12:8).

I looked those scriptures up ( you meant Matthew 26:11 ) and agree with you, yet we are COMMANDED to remember them.

Quote

Galatians 2:10~“Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

And so shall we~I'm sure you have that godly spirit to do so.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #8 on:** Sun Nov 22, 2020 - 05:45:51 »

4WD · « **Reply #9 on:** Sun Nov 22, 2020 - 06:29:12 »

Quote from: RB on Sun Nov 22, 2020 - 05:45:51

I looked those scriptures up ( you meant Matthew 26:11 ) and agree with you, yet we are COMMANDED to remember them. And so shall we~I'm sure you have that godly spirit to do so.

Yes. However, one of my pet peeves is the using of scriptural references to support an idea when the reference indicated really has nothing to do with the idea being presented. In the present case, if Buff's intent was to address the issue of Christians concern for and aid to the poor, then there are really quite a few passages, as you pointed out, that do just that. The one he used does not. In the present case, there is no real harm done by the inappropriate choice of reference. However, all too often, references misappropriated can indeed lead to bad interpretations and faulty theology. For example, attempting to apply Jesus' teaching directed specifically to His disciples, the twelve, to Christians in general can lead to all manner of faulty doctrine. As you have noted on many occasions, context is key.

Reformer · « **Reply #10 on:** Sun Nov 22, 2020 - 13:25:28 »

RB:

My entire thrust in quoting part of Matthew 26:11 was to emphasize the fact that genuinely poor people will always be part of our civilizations. Nothing else was indicated or insinuated in my usage of that passage of scripture.

"Why do you trouble this woman? For she has done a beautiful thing to me. For you will always have the poor with you, but you will not always have me."

Indirect deductions or inferences can be found and lifted from statements such as the one our Lord issued above. The inference in His kindly remarks is that the poor will always be with us. In saying this, nothing has been distorted or misquoted from His core intent.

Buff

4WD · « **Reply #11 on:** Mon Nov 23, 2020 - 04:27:34 »

Quote from: Reformer on Sun Nov 22, 2020 - 13:25:28

Indirect deductions or inferences can be found and lifted from statements such as the one our Lord issued above.

That the indirect deductions or inferences can be found and lifted doesn't mean the indirect deductions or inferences are valid. Such is the source of most false teaching.

DaveW · « **Reply #12 on:** Mon Nov 23, 2020 - 09:01:28 »

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Nov 23, 2020 - 04:27:34

That the indirect deductions or inferences can be found and lifted doesn't mean the indirect deductions or inferences are valid. Such is the source of most false teaching.

Actually, such inferences were commonplace in late 2nd temple era Judea. It is like saying "For God so loved the world ..' and it bringing to mind the entire verse. In this case the verse is this:

Deuteronomy 15:11
For the poor will never cease to be in the land; therefore I command you, saying, ‘You shall freely open your hand to your brother, to your needy and poor in your land.’

4WD · « **Reply #13 on:** Mon Nov 23, 2020 - 10:37:17 »

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Nov 23, 2020 - 09:01:28

Actually, such inferences were commonplace in late 2nd temple era Judea. It is like saying "For God so loved the world ..' and it bringing to mind the entire verse. In this case the verse is this:

Deuteronomy 15:11
For the poor will never cease to be in the land; therefore I command you, saying, ‘You shall freely open your hand to your brother, to your needy and poor in your land.’

That constitutes neither an inference nor a deduction. That is simply a trigger to recall an actual reference.

DaveW · « **Reply #14 on:** Mon Nov 23, 2020 - 11:14:01 »

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Nov 23, 2020 - 10:37:17

That constitutes neither an inference nor a deduction. That is simply a trigger to recall an actual reference.

Which is exactly what our Lord was doing when He said that.

Reformer · « **Reply #15 on:** Mon Nov 23, 2020 - 14:25:44 »

EXTRA THOUGHTS ON DEDUCTIONS & INFERENCES –

As examples, let’s consider the thousand-year reign in Revelation 20:6 & the current reign of Jesus “until He has put all enemies under His feet,” as noted by Paul in I Corinthians 15:25.

There are at least two central conceptions in the Christian community relating to these passages. There are many sub-central conceptions, of course, but in my biblical studies and contacts with others there are only two leading concepts.

1] Jesus will return and establish a thousand-year earthly reign or kingdom, at which time He will sit upon “David’s throne” and reign from Jerusalem.

2] Jesus has been reigning as King over His kingdom since it was initiated on the birthday of the grace era, as revealed by Peter in Acts 2:29-35. Jesus is now “exalted at the right hand of God” as King of the new kingdom, the grace or redeemed community [verse 33].

The sub-central views—deductions and inferences—associated with this topic would fill a washtub. The two core ones mentioned above, as noted, seem to be the commanding viewpoints.

It is worth noting that deductions and inferences can be, and often are, unsupported when they collide with the topic at hand. For when a deduction or inference clearly contradicts the central theme, as revealed in other portions of scripture, they become useless or futile. Trying to force such inferences to apply to our biblical perspective is akin to wrongly dividing the testimony of the Holy Spirit.

If you are curious as to how I understand the “thousand-year reign” in the scriptures alluded to above, number 2 above is my pick. As I understand the scriptures on this subject, number 1 contradicts dozens of scriptures attached to this scheme.

The bottom line is that of all the thousands of inferences and deductions attached to many scriptures, we need to be cautious in our studies lest we do more harm than good when we fellowship with and communicate to our fellow believers. I apply this principle to myself—not just to others.

Buff

4WD · « **Reply #16 on:** Mon Nov 23, 2020 - 14:42:46 »

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Nov 23, 2020 - 11:14:01

Which is exactly what our Lord was doing when He said that.

Says you, not Jesus. Such references by Jesus are almost always prefaced by something like "it is written", "as written", "is it not written", etc.

4WD · « **Reply #17 on:** Mon Nov 23, 2020 - 15:02:41 »

Quote from: Reformer on Mon Nov 23, 2020 - 14:25:44

EXTRA THOUGHTS ON DEDUCTIONS & INFERENCES –

As examples, let’s consider the thousand-year reign in Revelation 20:6 & the current reign of Jesus “until He has put all enemies under His feet,” as noted by Paul in I Corinthians 15:25.

There are at least two central conceptions in the Christian community relating to these passages. There are many sub-central conceptions, of course, but in my biblical studies and contacts with others there are only two leading concepts.

1] Jesus will return and establish a thousand-year earthly reign or kingdom, at which time He will sit upon “David’s throne” and reign from Jerusalem
2] Jesus has been reigning as King over His kingdom since it was initiated on the birthday of the grace era, as revealed by Peter in Acts 2:29-35. Jesus is now “exalted at the right hand of God” as King of the new kingdom, the grace or redeemed community [verse 33].

The sub-central views—deductions and inferences—associated with this topic would fill a washtub. The two core ones mentioned above, as noted, seem to be the commanding viewpoints.

Buff, I think you have made my point very nicely; thank you.

I am not saying that such inferences and deductions are necessarily wrong; but they do not constitute the written word of God. Once you, or anyone including me, ceases to quote actual Scripture you have supplied only opinion.

Quote

The bottom line is that of all the thousands of inferences and deductions attached to many scriptures, we need to be cautious in our studies lest we do more harm than good when we fellowship with and communicate to our fellow believers. I apply this principle to myself—not just to others.

The bottom line is that we need to understand that all such inferences and deductions are simply that, i.e., our own inferences and deductions and not Scripture.

Let's face it, such inferences and deductions, apart from actual Scripture, is where the whole concept associated with TULIP originates. Such inferences and deductions is why there are hundreds, if not thousands, of variants within Christendom.

Reformer · « **Reply #18 on:** Mon Nov 23, 2020 - 15:19:30 »

4WD:

Well put and attractively expressed!

Buff

DaveW · « **Reply #19 on:** Tue Nov 24, 2020 - 05:01:55 »

Quote from: Reformer on Mon Nov 23, 2020 - 14:25:44

EXTRA THOUGHTS ON DEDUCTIONS & INFERENCES –

As examples, let’s consider the thousand-year reign in Revelation 20:6 & the current reign of Jesus “until He has put all enemies under His feet,” as noted by Paul in I Corinthians 15:25.

There are at least two central conceptions in the Christian community relating to these passages. There are many sub-central conceptions, of course, but in my biblical studies and contacts with others there are only two leading concepts.

1] Jesus will return and establish a thousand-year earthly reign or kingdom, at which time He will sit upon “David’s throne” and reign from Jerusalem.

2] Jesus has been reigning as King over His kingdom since it was initiated on the birthday of the grace era, as revealed by Peter in Acts 2:29-35. Jesus is now “exalted at the right hand of God” as King of the new kingdom, the grace or redeemed community [verse 33].

The sub-central views—deductions and inferences—associated with this topic would fill a washtub. The two core ones mentioned above, as noted, seem to be the commanding viewpoints.

It is worth noting that deductions and inferences can be, and often are, unsupported when they collide with the topic at hand. For when a deduction or inference clearly contradicts the central theme, as revealed in other portions of scripture, they become useless or futile. Trying to force such inferences to apply to our biblical perspective is akin to wrongly dividing the testimony of the Holy Spirit.

If you are curious as to how I understand the “thousand-year reign” in the scriptures alluded to above, number 2 above is my pick. As I understand the scriptures on this subject, number 1 contradicts dozens of scriptures attached to this scheme.

The bottom line is that of all the thousands of inferences and deductions attached to many scriptures, we need to be cautious in our studies lest we do more harm than good when we fellowship with and communicate to our fellow believers. I apply this principle to myself—not just to others.

Buff

Buff: I am firmly believing in #1. It is the only one that is entirely consistent and compatible with the strongly held Jewish beliefs at the time (and still exists in much of the Orthodox Jewish communities). Neither our Lord nor the other NT authors would have made " inferences and deductions" that would have been lost on the original audiences.

DaveW · « **Reply #20 on:** Tue Nov 24, 2020 - 05:04:39 »

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Nov 23, 2020 - 15:02:41

Let's face it, such inferences and deductions, apart from actual Scripture, is where the whole concept associated with TULIP originates. Such inferences and deductions is why there are hundreds, if not thousands, of variants within Christendom.

Agreed. But if you put the NT writings BACK into a first century Judaic culture and mindset, the vast majority of them (including TULIP) just go away.

RB · « **Reply #21 on:** Tue Nov 24, 2020 - 05:19:46 »

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Nov 23, 2020 - 15:02:41

Let's face it, such inferences and deductions, apart from actual Scripture, is where the whole concept associated with TULIP originates.

Let me help you to better express your thoughts:

Quote from: RB helping his friend to better express his thoughts

Let's face it, such inferences and deductions, apart from actual Scripture, is where the whole concept ~~associated with~~ against TULIP originates.

But, since the truth is not totally associated using the acronymTULIP you may have a little truth, more when you said:

Quote from: 4WD on: Yesterday at 15:02:41

Such inferences and deductions is why there are hundreds, if not thousands, of variants within Christendom.

Agree, including your doctrine of Soteriology.

4WD · « **Reply #22 on:** Tue Nov 24, 2020 - 05:46:32 »

Quote from: RB on Tue Nov 24, 2020 - 05:19:46

Let me help you to better express your thoughts:

RB, I would only remind you that the terms "Total Depravity", "Unconditional Election", "Limited Atonement", "Irresistible Grace", and "Perseverance of the Saints" are to be found NOWHERE in Scripture. Those terms are, without question, precisely the sort of inference and deduction, apart from actual Scripture, that is being discussed here. I know you do not want to admit that, but it is a fact. I would go even further to say that the inference and deduction that gives rise to those biblically nonexistent terms is really bad inference and deduction.

DaveW · « **Reply #23 on:** Tue Nov 24, 2020 - 07:58:17 »

Quote from: 4WD on Tue Nov 24, 2020 - 05:46:32

RB, I would only remind you that the terms "Total Depravity", "Unconditional Election", "Limited Atonement", "Irresistible Grace", and "Perseverance of the Saints" are to be found NOWHERE in Scripture. Those terms are, without question, precisely the sort of inference and deduction, apart from actual Scripture, that is being discussed here. I know you do not want to admit that, but it is a fact. I would go even further to say that the inference and deduction that gives rise to those biblically nonexistent terms is really bad inference and deduction.

IT is what happens when you try to apply western (Aristotelian) logic to an ancient text written under an entirely different logic framework.

4WD · « **Reply #24 on:** Tue Nov 24, 2020 - 10:54:33 »

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Nov 24, 2020 - 07:58:17

IT is what happens when you try to apply western (Aristotelian) logic to an ancient text written under an entirely different logic framework.

Enough already with the "Contradictions aren't really contradictions". It is what happens when you don't understand what truth is. After all it was, apparently, Hebrew block logic that led the Jews, not just a few leaders but the mass of Jewish society, to demand that Jesus, being a heretic, should be hung up on a cross to die.

DaveW · « **Reply #25 on:** Tue Nov 24, 2020 - 12:16:31 »

Quote from: 4WD on Tue Nov 24, 2020 - 10:54:33

Enough already with the "Contradictions aren't really contradictions". It is what happens when you don't understand what truth is. After all it was, apparently, Hebrew block logic that led the Jews, not just a few leaders but the mass of Jewish society, to demand that Jesus, being a heretic, should be hung up on a cross to die.

Christian myth. Read the texts. Those leaders were seeing a groundswell of acceptance in the general populace. That is why they thought they needed to kill Him.

John 11:47
Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, “What are we doing? For this man is performing many signs. 48 If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”

Even Gamaliel the Great (Paul's mentor) the head Pharisee of his day, had thoughts that maybe HE was who He said He was.

Acts 5:33
But when they heard this, they were cut to the quick and intended to kill them. 34 But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the Law, respected by all the people, stood up in the Council and gave orders to put the men outside for a short time. 35 And he said to them, “Men of Israel, take care what you propose to do with these men. 36 For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a group of about four hundred men joined up with him. But he was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. 37 After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census and drew away some people after him; he too perished, and all those who followed him were scattered. 38 So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown; 39 but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God.”

Perhaps that is why Paul/Saul broke ranks and got the letters of arrest from the High Priest instead of Gamaliel, who, as president of the Sanhedrin could have just as easily wrote them. Saul may have seen him as a sympathizer.

Texas Conservative · « **Reply #26 on:** Tue Nov 24, 2020 - 12:51:19 »

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Nov 24, 2020 - 12:16:31

Christian myth. Read the texts. Those leaders were seeing a groundswell of acceptance in the general populace. That is why they thought they needed to kill Him.

John 11:47
Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, “What are we doing? For this man is performing many signs. 48 If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”

Even Gamaliel the Great (Paul's mentor) the head Pharisee of his day, had thoughts that maybe HE was who He said He was.

Acts 5:33
But when they heard this, they were cut to the quick and intended to kill them. 34 But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the Law, respected by all the people, stood up in the Council and gave orders to put the men outside for a short time. 35 And he said to them, “Men of Israel, take care what you propose to do with these men. 36 For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a group of about four hundred men joined up with him. But he was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. 37 After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census and drew away some people after him; he too perished, and all those who followed him were scattered. 38 So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown; 39 but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God.”

Perhaps that is why Paul/Saul broke ranks and got the letters of arrest from the High Priest instead of Gamaliel, who, as president of the Sanhedrin could have just as easily wrote them. Saul may have seen him as a sympathizer.

John 18:38-40

38 “What is truth?” retorted Pilate. With this he went out again to the Jews gathered there and said, “I find no basis for a charge against him. 39 But it is your custom for me to release to you one prisoner at the time of the Passover. Do you want me to release ‘the king of the Jews’?”

40 They shouted back, “No, not him! Give us Barabbas!” Now Barabbas had taken part in an uprising.

DaveW · « **Reply #27 on:** Tue Nov 24, 2020 - 12:56:04 »

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Tue Nov 24, 2020 - 12:51:19

John 18:38-40
38 “What is truth?” retorted Pilate. With this he went out again to the Jews gathered there and said, “I find no basis for a charge against him. 39 But it is your custom for me to release to you one prisoner at the time of the Passover. Do you want me to release ‘the king of the Jews’?”
40 They shouted back, “No, not him! Give us Barabbas!” Now Barabbas had taken part in an uprising.

Matthew 27:20
But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowds to ask for Barabbas and to put Jesus to death.

Texas Conservative · « **Reply #28 on:** Tue Nov 24, 2020 - 13:31:08 »

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Nov 24, 2020 - 12:56:04

Matthew 27:20
But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowds to ask for Barabbas and to put Jesus to death.

That they were persuaded doesn't help your point.

4WD · « **Reply #29 on:** Tue Nov 24, 2020 - 14:00:14 »

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Nov 24, 2020 - 12:56:04

Matthew 27:20
But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowds to ask for Barabbas and to put Jesus to death.

They persuaded the crowds using block logic.

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