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Author Topic: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?  (Read 3264 times)

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Offline notreligus

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #105 on: Fri Oct 26, 2018 - 16:05:56 »
I don’t see anyone disputing that passage Grams. Of course all of us realize Jesus took care of our sin problem on the cross.

What are you seeing that you feel counters that passage?

The only post that attempted to answer the question from Gram's point of view was mine.   I have addressed Mid-Acts Dispensationalism here many times.  Some folk just don't care to learn anything that's outside of their regular driving lane.

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #105 on: Fri Oct 26, 2018 - 16:05:56 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #106 on: Fri Oct 26, 2018 - 16:15:45 »
Congratulations!

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #106 on: Fri Oct 26, 2018 - 16:15:45 »

Offline notreligus

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #107 on: Fri Oct 26, 2018 - 17:53:05 »
Congratulations!

So, you appreciate ignorance.  That's a sad response.

FWIW, and probably not worth much around here, Mid-Acts Dispensationalism claims that the New Covenant does not yet exist.   

I was not boasting but my comments were to convey what seems to be a lackadaisical attitude in general concerning the beliefs of others.   How can anyone participate at an apologetics board and not try to understand what others believe?   
« Last Edit: Fri Oct 26, 2018 - 19:05:01 by notreligus »

Offline grams

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #108 on: Fri Oct 26, 2018 - 19:44:58 »


What  I  wanted  to  make clear  is we no longer need do works.

We  know  we should not sin.

We know we are forgiven........   So  we love  GOD and JESUS  and we
want to do  the right thing.......  All the time.

But  we are all sinners  and at times   we  just can not  stop.
But later we are  sorry  !   Those  whom  believe in  GOD and JESUS
of course.....

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #108 on: Fri Oct 26, 2018 - 19:44:58 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline Alan

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #109 on: Fri Oct 26, 2018 - 19:48:17 »

What  I  wanted  to  make clear  is we no longer need do works.

We  know  we should not sin.

We know we are forgiven........   So  we love  GOD and JESUS  and we
want to do  the right thing.......  All the time.

But  we are all sinners  and at times   we  just can not  stop.
But later we are  sorry  !   Those  whom  believe in  GOD and JESUS
of course.....


Okay, but how is the line defined that we should not cross? In other words, what defines a sin if we are to leave the law in the dust?

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #109 on: Fri Oct 26, 2018 - 19:48:17 »



Offline Jaime

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #110 on: Fri Oct 26, 2018 - 20:00:17 »
Notreligious, I understand what Grams believes. I just don’t understand what she is trying to say sometimes or why at a particular time in the thread. My wish is that she would understand what WE are saying. We in no way are advocating salvation by works.
« Last Edit: Fri Oct 26, 2018 - 20:02:44 by Jaime »

Offline grams

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #111 on: Sat Oct 27, 2018 - 05:50:42 »

Posted by: Jaime
« on: Yesterday at 20:00:17 »
Insert Quote

 

Notreligious, I understand what Grams believes. I just don’t understand what she is trying to say sometimes or why at a particular time in the thread. My wish is that she would understand what WE are saying. We in no way are advocating salvation by works.

Yes,  no works of course  ....... the Cross  did it all for us in this time.

We just need to understand and be  great full.

Offline Alan

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #112 on: Sat Oct 27, 2018 - 07:23:57 »
I think we're getting back to the fundamentals of Christianity here. Works covered the sins of men in the OT whereas grace forgives the sins of man in the NT.

Offline Jaime

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #113 on: Sat Oct 27, 2018 - 07:50:14 »
I AM very grateful Grams, thanks.
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 27, 2018 - 08:29:03 by Jaime »

Offline Amo

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #114 on: Sat Oct 27, 2018 - 12:45:27 »
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

It is pretty self explanatory. It is a day of rest from work to spend more quality time with God and realign or adjust our lives according to the fact that He is our Creator, Sustainer, and Savior. The exactness of how it should be observed can vary somewhat according to various circumstance. It is not meant to be a burdensome list of rules and regs concerning what is and what is not work to be rigidly enforced. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ demonstrated the fallacy of this mind set when here on earth, seeking to liberate His true followers from the burden the religious leaders of the day had made it, that they might once again be rested and refreshed by the day, not weighed down and burdened by endless rules regarding the same.

On the other hand, the Lord was very specific and serious with the nation of Israel when trying to reestablish the observance of the seventh day Sabbath among those He chose as His people. He intended that the Sabbath be taken very seriously, no doubt since humanity was obviously so very prone to forget and or ignore this institution established by God for our own good. The world may forget God's Sabbath, but His people absolutely were not to do so. It was and is a sign that they believe God is who and what He says He is. Which truth the fourth commandment clearly points out. Sabbath observance during the formation and establishment of the nation of Israel had a nature of its own for that particular time and place, as it often may under varying circumstance. It was being reestablished by God among a people who professed His name, during a time of special and miraculous deliverance, establishment, and sustenance. He could and did instruct them very specifically regarding certain issues of Sabbath observance not only as a matter of establishing that which humanity was so prone to ignore, but also pertaining to the unusual circumstance of the times. It is one thing for God Himself to do this when He is directly and miraculously leading a people. It is another for human beings to begin making up strenuous lists of what they deem acceptable or not on Sabbath days for everyone else. These are the problems Jesus addressed during His time with us here regarding the keeping of God's Sabbath.

It is as it ever was concerning all things. Keep it simple stupid. The more rules, regs, and penalties you apply to anything, the more complicated and confusing all issues pertaining to the same become. Then you need people to enforce all of the same, successfully creating another beast of its own for all to contend with. Part of the sin problem is the non stop desire to control and manipulate all around us according to our own desires or habit. In this way we all pollute the temple of God. May God cleanse us all from such petty and selfish motivations. May we each learn to submit to His will alone, by faith in His word. I do not desire to control or manipulate any of you regarding Sabbath worship or not. Please do make up your own minds. I am simply sharing what I believe with you, and my concerns regarding this issue at hand. While I will certainly argue or debate many issues, I have no desire whatsoever, in any way shape or form, to infringe upon the freedom of choice we all have at the infinite price of the life of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I would never consider forcing God's Sabbath upon anyone anywhere. It is the beasts of biblical prophecy that force worship upon humanity, not God. He has shown us through the death of His own Son, just how far He would rather go, than force anyone to worship Him. Praise His holy, pure, and undefiled name.



What you said there, as I gather, pertains to the observance mainly with regards the OT.

In the NT, and so for the Christians, here's what scriptures say:

Romans 13:9-10
9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Both the old and new testaments are for God's people. They are the history and record of God's leading among His professed followers, and the prediction and fulfillment of His prophecies concerning them. None who reject their combined witness are part of God's everlasting covenant which encompasses the old and new covenants. The latter has no meaning apart from the former, much of which it fulfills. They both contain prophecy and instruction for the saved until the end.

There are 27 books of the New Testament. The two verses you quoted from one chapter of one of those books, does not even scratch the surface of what the New Testament has to say about God's Ten Commandments and Christ's followers. It does not mention the fourth commandment or any of the commandments dealing with mans relationship with God, but only those commandments dealing with mans relation to other men. Why would you choose these verses to address Sabbath observance, when they don't address the issue at all? Do you really think these two verses alone are the entire extent of instruction for God's people from the New testament concerning the Ten commandments of God? If the Sabbath commandment does not need to be kept because it is not mentioned in the above two verses, the I guess everyone can worship idols now as well, is this not so? Yes, we can all take the Lord's name in vain now, and make and bow down to idols, is this correct? Very faulty reasoning.

Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. 9 And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue: 10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. 11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? 12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. 13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

Jesus Christ is Lord of the Sabbath. He taught that it was and is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. Why do you suggest that the New Testament does not address the Sabbath commandment, and then therefore suggest it need not be kept during this new covenant? Jesus Christ who is Lord of the Sabbath, and Lord of the new covenant, who established it with His own blood, addressed and taught it's proper observance.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

How about that. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, when predicting the future for His people, told them to pray that their flight from His enemies would not be on the Sabbath. Apparently Jesus Christ the Lord of the Sabbath and Lord of the new covenant established with His own blood, did not expect or predict that the seventh day Sabbath would change or not be kept in the future. To the contrary, He still expected His people to be observing the same. How say you again, that the NT has nothing to say about the observance of the seventh day Sabbath according to God's Ten Commandments.

Luke 13:10 And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath. 11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself. 12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity. 13 And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God. 14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day. 15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering? 16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day? 17 And when he had said these things, all his adversaries were ashamed: and all the people rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by him.

Why do you ignore the lessons taught by Jesus Christ our Lord, the Lord of the Sabbath and the new covenant established by His own blood? Did Paul die for you? Are you cleansed by his blood? Were you baptized in his name? Why will you change Paul's admonition to love our neighbors as we love ourselves into a command to disregard the Sabbath of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It was established at creation by Him, given to Israel by Him, declared to be His by Him in the NT, He taught it's proper observance in the NT, and predicted it's future observance in the NT. How say you it is no longer according to the NT?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

1 Cor 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


Jesus Christ established the Sabbath at creation, reestablished it for His people in giving it back to Israel, observed and taught it's proper observance when personally here for our salvation, declared Himself Lord of the Sabbath during the same time, predicted Sabbath observance in the future when here also, and conclusively stated that He did not come to change God's law which of course includes the fourth commandment. I believe I will stick to His testimony above yours.
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 27, 2018 - 12:52:35 by Amo »

Offline Amo

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #115 on: Sat Oct 27, 2018 - 13:03:23 »
Choir Loft, do you or any of the others advocating so strongly for keeping the Law have specific -- and hopefully concise and understandable -- responses to what I posted in Reply 29?  As I said in Reply 36, it would not take much effort to come with about as many additional ones.

Is there any good reason why the sentiments I express in Reply 20 should not apply to you?

If (as I believe likely) we each produce a selection of Scriptures "clearly" and "definitively" supporting our own views, what authoritative and objective source of guidance determines which to prioritize?


The scriptures of course are not the problem. Figuring out what they actually say, as possibly opposed to what we want to make them say, is likely the real problem. If what we believe makes the scriptures contradict themselves, then what we believe is the problem, not the scriptures. Perhaps focussing more upon the big picture, can help identify the inconsistencies of the many smaller ones.

Offline 4WD

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #116 on: Sat Oct 27, 2018 - 13:13:28 »
The scriptures of course are not the problem. Figuring out what they actually say, as possibly opposed to what we want to make them say, is likely the real problem.
Figuring out what they actually say is not really ever a problem.  All you have to do is pick one or more translations and read.  The problem is always figuring out what God meant when He said what He said.

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #117 on: Sat Oct 27, 2018 - 15:51:03 »
Quote
    Choir Loft, do you or any of the others advocating so strongly for keeping the Law have specific -- and hopefully concise and understandable -- responses to what I posted in Reply 29?  As I said in Reply 36, it would not take much effort to come with about as many additional ones.

    Is there any good reason why the sentiments I express in Reply 20 should not apply to you?

    If (as I believe likely) we each produce a selection of Scriptures "clearly" and "definitively" supporting our own views, what authoritative and objective source of guidance determines which to prioritize?
The scriptures of course are not the problem. Figuring out what they actually say, as possibly opposed to what we want to make them say, is likely the real problem. If what we believe makes the scriptures contradict themselves, then what we believe is the problem, not the scriptures. Perhaps focussing more upon the big picture, can help identify the inconsistencies of the many smaller ones.

Since you don't care to directly address any of the Scriptures I cited, I'm left to conclude you're a Judaizing legalist, fallen from grace and cut off from Christ, worthy of anathema if you seek to impose your views on others.   ::shrug::

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #118 on: Sat Oct 27, 2018 - 21:51:31 »
Quote
What you said there, as I gather, pertains to the observance mainly with regards the OT.

In the NT, and so for the Christians, here's what scriptures say:

Romans 13:9-10
9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Both the old and new testaments are for God's people. They are the history and record of God's leading among His professed followers, and the prediction and fulfillment of His prophecies concerning them. None who reject their combined witness are part of God's everlasting covenant which encompasses the old and new covenants. The latter has no meaning apart from the former, much of which it fulfills. They both contain prophecy and instruction for the saved until the end.

There are 27 books of the New Testament. The two verses you quoted from one chapter of one of those books, does not even scratch the surface of what the New Testament has to say about God's Ten Commandments and Christ's followers. It does not mention the fourth commandment or any of the commandments dealing with mans relationship with God, but only those commandments dealing with mans relation to other men. Why would you choose these verses to address Sabbath observance, when they don't address the issue at all? Do you really think these two verses alone are the entire extent of instruction for God's people from the New testament concerning the Ten commandments of God? If the Sabbath commandment does not need to be kept because it is not mentioned in the above two verses, the I guess everyone can worship idols now as well, is this not so? Yes, we can all take the Lord's name in vain now, and make and bow down to idols, is this correct? Very faulty reasoning.

Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. 9 And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue: 10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. 11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? 12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. 13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

Jesus Christ is Lord of the Sabbath. He taught that it was and is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. Why do you suggest that the New Testament does not address the Sabbath commandment, and then therefore suggest it need not be kept during this new covenant? Jesus Christ who is Lord of the Sabbath, and Lord of the new covenant, who established it with His own blood, addressed and taught it's proper observance.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

How about that. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, when predicting the future for His people, told them to pray that their flight from His enemies would not be on the Sabbath. Apparently Jesus Christ the Lord of the Sabbath and Lord of the new covenant established with His own blood, did not expect or predict that the seventh day Sabbath would change or not be kept in the future. To the contrary, He still expected His people to be observing the same. How say you again, that the NT has nothing to say about the observance of the seventh day Sabbath according to God's Ten Commandments.

Luke 13:10 And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath. 11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself. 12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity. 13 And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God. 14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day. 15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering? 16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day? 17 And when he had said these things, all his adversaries were ashamed: and all the people rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by him.

Why do you ignore the lessons taught by Jesus Christ our Lord, the Lord of the Sabbath and the new covenant established by His own blood? Did Paul die for you? Are you cleansed by his blood? Were you baptized in his name? Why will you change Paul's admonition to love our neighbors as we love ourselves into a command to disregard the Sabbath of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It was established at creation by Him, given to Israel by Him, declared to be His by Him in the NT, He taught it's proper observance in the NT, and predicted it's future observance in the NT. How say you it is no longer according to the NT?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

1 Cor 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


Jesus Christ established the Sabbath at creation, reestablished it for His people in giving it back to Israel, observed and taught it's proper observance when personally here for our salvation, declared Himself Lord of the Sabbath during the same time, predicted Sabbath observance in the future when here also, and conclusively stated that He did not come to change God's law which of course includes the fourth commandment. I believe I will stick to His testimony above yours.

Amo:
"The two verses you quoted from one chapter of one of those books, does not even scratch the surface of what the New Testament has to say about God's Ten Commandments and Christ's followers."

Amo:
"The two verses you quoted from one chapter of one of those books, does not even scratch the surface of what the New Testament has to say about God's Ten Commandments and Christ's followers. It does not mention the fourth commandment or any of the commandments dealing with mans relationship with God, but only those commandments dealing with mans relation to other men. Why would you choose these verses to address Sabbath observance, when they don't address the issue at all? Do you really think these two verses alone are the entire extent of instruction for God's people from the New testament concerning the Ten commandments of God? If the Sabbath commandment does not need to be kept because it is not mentioned in the above two verses, the I guess everyone can worship idols now as well, is this not so? Yes, we can all take the Lord's name in vain now, and make and bow down to idols, is this correct? Very faulty reasoning. "

You are referring to these verses:

Romans 13:9-10
9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Consider including reading those in green. Also, this is what I said "In the NT, and so for the Christians, here's what scriptures say:" So, its not even me telling you that, but scriptures.

Are the ten commandments not part of the law? I guess to you, it's not. And that makes the difference.

And I guess further that you are looking only at the letters and not the Spirit, which makes the difference. 

Amo:
"Why do you suggest that the New Testament does not address the Sabbath commandment, and then therefore suggest it need not be kept during this new covenant?"
...
"How say you again, that the NT has nothing to say about the observance of the seventh day Sabbath according to God's Ten Commandment"
...
"Why will you change Paul's admonition to love our neighbors as we love ourselves into a command to disregard the Sabbath of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. "

Evidently, all of this is false accusation. Please consider reading my post again. Or perhaps, you can point where in my post that I suggested that.

Offline RB

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #119 on: Tue Oct 30, 2018 - 07:07:24 »
Continue from Reply #100~
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 3:8~"And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed."
Paul, introducing Abraham and faith versus Law works, raises further proof from the O.T.

God preached the gospel to Abram in Genesis 12:3; 18:18; and 22:18 by His foreknowledge.

Let us observe the personification of scripture … foreseeing … preaching … and saying. Paul took his readers all the way back to the first words about Abraham in Moses’ Law! Paul’s Gentile audience was the very heathen that God referred to in His gospel promise.The gospel is good news about Christ, and it was preached to Abraham in these words. Abraham knew his Seed was Christ as much as he knew the land was heaven (John 8:56).

How are nations blessed in Abraham? There is great confusion and heresy about this today. First, the blessing is not carnal; it is the spiritual blessing of justification through Christ. The blessing is eternal life in Christ and the gospel about Him that is believed by faith.

Second, it is not based on Abraham’s biological seed, or the so-called Jews in Palestine, which cannot even prove (and highly doubt themselves) they are even related to Shem! American public policy toward Israel has been fueled by errors taken from Genesis 12:3 and related verses. John Hagee and Jerry Falwell and Jimmy Swaggart, and many others greatly err thinking that more F-15’s for Israel is the condition for this blessing and America’s prosperity is the promised blessing.

Read how Jesus and Caiaphas prophesied of Gentile conversions (John 10:16; 11:49-52). Is faith the conditional means, instrumental means, or evidential means of our justification? If it is the conditional or instrumental, then why did God bypass much of the human race? We must remember that Paul had never met an Arminian or Calvinist when writing this. He did not use faith in a way to clearly identify it as a condition, instrument, or evidence. We go to other places in the New Testament to learn the role of faith in our justification. He contrasted faith~believing the gospel about Jesus Christ~to the works of the Law. The “faith” and “hearing of faith” used here in context refer to the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, God’s grace in justifying the ungodly without works, the gospel truth declaring these glad tidings, and the work-rejecting faith of Gentiles laying hold of those promises.

If we do not see this important distinction, then we should again meditate on 1:23; 3:2,5,23,25; 6:10; Eph 4:5; James 2:1; etc., to recognize the use of faith as a metonym for the religion of Jesus Christ.

Later....RB

Offline Amo

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #120 on: Sat Nov 03, 2018 - 12:41:46 »
The scriptures of course are not the problem. Figuring out what they actually say, as possibly opposed to what we want to make them say, is likely the real problem. If what we believe makes the scriptures contradict themselves, then what we believe is the problem, not the scriptures. Perhaps focussing more upon the big picture, can help identify the inconsistencies of the many smaller ones.


Since you don't care to directly address any of the Scriptures I cited, I'm left to conclude you're a Judaizing legalist, fallen from grace and cut off from Christ, worthy of anathema if you seek to impose your views on others.   ::shrug::

You may of course conclude whatever you wish. I know you though. Your like me. Dust. Here today, gone tomorrow. Our petty judgments of others are subject to major faults, and of a very short duration. The truths of God's word on the other hand, will never go away, and all will be judged according to the same. Let's take a look at your main point I presume.

Quote
Each of us finds certain Scriptures "clear," "definitive," "convincing," etc.

In my case, I find Eph. 2, Col. 2, and Gal. 3 to be clear, convincing, and definitive in showing that the Law and every ordinance, decree, and Commandment was cancelled, abolished, nailed to the Cross, hung on the Tree, for those of us who are in Christ.

I find Gal. 4:10, Rom. 14, and Col. 2:16 to be clear, convincing, and definitive in showing that we need not consider the Sabbath or any other day to be special.

I find Hebrews to be clear, convincing, and definitive in showing that the Law passed away along with the Obsolete and Outdated Covenant.

I find Gal 5:14, Rom. 13:8-10, and Jas. 2:8 to be clear, convincing, and definitive in showing that the only Commandment universally applicable to believers is "Love your neighbor as yourself."

I find John 6 to be clear, convincing, and definitive in showing that no good work, including obeying the "Love Commandment," is necessary to obtain eternal life; rather all that is necessary is to trust Jesus.

Yes, people do each select scriptures to support their own particular views. The goal hopefully, is to come to a correct knowledge and understanding of what God's word actually teaches, rather than that which so very many teach in contradiction to each other and the scriptures themselves. Your final conclusion is the correct one. Jesus was God in the flesh. His words and teachings should be trusted as the standard by which all other scripture is rightly divided and or interpreted. If what we believe and or preach contradicts the words of God in the flesh, then what we believe is wrong, not the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Please do explain the seeming contradiction between what you are claiming the writings of certain apostles means in relation to the following words He who is King of kings, and Lord of lords spoke to humanity.

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
« Last Edit: Sat Nov 03, 2018 - 12:43:58 by Amo »

Offline Amo

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #121 on: Sat Nov 03, 2018 - 12:47:58 »
Both the old and new testaments are for God's people. They are the history and record of God's leading among His professed followers, and the prediction and fulfillment of His prophecies concerning them. None who reject their combined witness are part of God's everlasting covenant which encompasses the old and new covenants. The latter has no meaning apart from the former, much of which it fulfills. They both contain prophecy and instruction for the saved until the end.

There are 27 books of the New Testament. The two verses you quoted from one chapter of one of those books, does not even scratch the surface of what the New Testament has to say about God's Ten Commandments and Christ's followers. It does not mention the fourth commandment or any of the commandments dealing with mans relationship with God, but only those commandments dealing with mans relation to other men. Why would you choose these verses to address Sabbath observance, when they don't address the issue at all? Do you really think these two verses alone are the entire extent of instruction for God's people from the New testament concerning the Ten commandments of God? If the Sabbath commandment does not need to be kept because it is not mentioned in the above two verses, the I guess everyone can worship idols now as well, is this not so? Yes, we can all take the Lord's name in vain now, and make and bow down to idols, is this correct? Very faulty reasoning.

Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. 9 And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue: 10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. 11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? 12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. 13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

Jesus Christ is Lord of the Sabbath. He taught that it was and is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. Why do you suggest that the New Testament does not address the Sabbath commandment, and then therefore suggest it need not be kept during this new covenant? Jesus Christ who is Lord of the Sabbath, and Lord of the new covenant, who established it with His own blood, addressed and taught it's proper observance.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

How about that. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, when predicting the future for His people, told them to pray that their flight from His enemies would not be on the Sabbath. Apparently Jesus Christ the Lord of the Sabbath and Lord of the new covenant established with His own blood, did not expect or predict that the seventh day Sabbath would change or not be kept in the future. To the contrary, He still expected His people to be observing the same. How say you again, that the NT has nothing to say about the observance of the seventh day Sabbath according to God's Ten Commandments.

Luke 13:10 And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath. 11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself. 12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity. 13 And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God. 14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day. 15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering? 16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day? 17 And when he had said these things, all his adversaries were ashamed: and all the people rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by him.

Why do you ignore the lessons taught by Jesus Christ our Lord, the Lord of the Sabbath and the new covenant established by His own blood? Did Paul die for you? Are you cleansed by his blood? Were you baptized in his name? Why will you change Paul's admonition to love our neighbors as we love ourselves into a command to disregard the Sabbath of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It was established at creation by Him, given to Israel by Him, declared to be His by Him in the NT, He taught it's proper observance in the NT, and predicted it's future observance in the NT. How say you it is no longer according to the NT?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

1 Cor 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


Jesus Christ established the Sabbath at creation, reestablished it for His people in giving it back to Israel, observed and taught it's proper observance when personally here for our salvation, declared Himself Lord of the Sabbath during the same time, predicted Sabbath observance in the future when here also, and conclusively stated that He did not come to change God's law which of course includes the fourth commandment. I believe I will stick to His testimony above yours.


Amo:
"The two verses you quoted from one chapter of one of those books, does not even scratch the surface of what the New Testament has to say about God's Ten Commandments and Christ's followers."

Amo:
"The two verses you quoted from one chapter of one of those books, does not even scratch the surface of what the New Testament has to say about God's Ten Commandments and Christ's followers. It does not mention the fourth commandment or any of the commandments dealing with mans relationship with God, but only those commandments dealing with mans relation to other men. Why would you choose these verses to address Sabbath observance, when they don't address the issue at all? Do you really think these two verses alone are the entire extent of instruction for God's people from the New testament concerning the Ten commandments of God? If the Sabbath commandment does not need to be kept because it is not mentioned in the above two verses, the I guess everyone can worship idols now as well, is this not so? Yes, we can all take the Lord's name in vain now, and make and bow down to idols, is this correct? Very faulty reasoning. "

You are referring to these verses:

Romans 13:9-10
9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Consider including reading those in green. Also, this is what I said "In the NT, and so for the Christians, here's what scriptures say:" So, its not even me telling you that, but scriptures.

Are the ten commandments not part of the law? I guess to you, it's not. And that makes the difference.

And I guess further that you are looking only at the letters and not the Spirit, which makes the difference. 

Amo:
"Why do you suggest that the New Testament does not address the Sabbath commandment, and then therefore suggest it need not be kept during this new covenant?"
...
"How say you again, that the NT has nothing to say about the observance of the seventh day Sabbath according to God's Ten Commandment"
...
"Why will you change Paul's admonition to love our neighbors as we love ourselves into a command to disregard the Sabbath of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. "

Evidently, all of this is false accusation. Please consider reading my post again. Or perhaps, you can point where in my post that I suggested that.

OK. Let's presume I have not understood your views correctly at all, and start over. What exactly are you suggesting?

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #122 on: Sat Nov 03, 2018 - 22:12:53 »
Quote
Amo:
"The two verses you quoted from one chapter of one of those books, does not even scratch the surface of what the New Testament has to say about God's Ten Commandments and Christ's followers."

Amo:
"The two verses you quoted from one chapter of one of those books, does not even scratch the surface of what the New Testament has to say about God's Ten Commandments and Christ's followers. It does not mention the fourth commandment or any of the commandments dealing with mans relationship with God, but only those commandments dealing with mans relation to other men. Why would you choose these verses to address Sabbath observance, when they don't address the issue at all? Do you really think these two verses alone are the entire extent of instruction for God's people from the New testament concerning the Ten commandments of God? If the Sabbath commandment does not need to be kept because it is not mentioned in the above two verses, the I guess everyone can worship idols now as well, is this not so? Yes, we can all take the Lord's name in vain now, and make and bow down to idols, is this correct? Very faulty reasoning. "

You are referring to these verses:

Romans 13:9-10
9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Consider including reading those in green. Also, this is what I said "In the NT, and so for the Christians, here's what scriptures say:" So, its not even me telling you that, but scriptures.

Are the ten commandments not part of the law? I guess to you, it's not. And that makes the difference.

And I guess further that you are looking only at the letters and not the Spirit, which makes the difference. 

Amo:
"Why do you suggest that the New Testament does not address the Sabbath commandment, and then therefore suggest it need not be kept during this new covenant?"
...
"How say you again, that the NT has nothing to say about the observance of the seventh day Sabbath according to God's Ten Commandment"
...
"Why will you change Paul's admonition to love our neighbors as we love ourselves into a command to disregard the Sabbath of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. "

Evidently, all of this is false accusation. Please consider reading my post again. Or perhaps, you can point where in my post that I suggested that.
OK. Let's presume I have not understood your views correctly at all, and start over. What exactly are you suggesting?

If there is any suggestion I am making, is that we should serve the Lord God in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. 

I am not suggesting at all that one should trash the 4th commandment. Rather that we fulfill every commandment of God. And His commandments are not burdensome. And that is because:

Please consider this truth : love is the fulfillment of the law.

Offline Amo

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #123 on: Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 11:05:14 »
OK. Let's presume I have not understood your views correctly at all, and start over. What exactly are you suggesting?


If there is any suggestion I am making, is that we should serve the Lord God in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. 

I am not suggesting at all that one should trash the 4th commandment. Rather that we fulfill every commandment of God. And His commandments are not burdensome. And that is because:

Please consider this truth : love is the fulfillment of the law.

Yes it is, and I have considered it often. The first four commandments deal with the basic elements of ones love for or to God, the last six toward our brothers and sisters. God did not establish legalism at any time anywhere. The same God who said -

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Also said -

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.


Even if one presumes that Jesus commandments are different in the new covenant than they were during the old one, it cannot be denied that if the keeping of the commandments during the old was living by the letter of the law, then the keeping of any commandments during the new covenant would be as well. Yet God has taught us in both, that it is those who keep His commandments, that love Him and are in His love. As many other scriptures do as well.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Due 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD..........................
33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. 34 [But] the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I [am] the LORD your God.

Due 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, 13 To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?


Love has always been the standard motive for keeping the commandments of God. This who keep it without such, keep it according to the letter. Those who keep it because of such, keep it by the spirit. Neither has anything to do with a time frame, but rather a frame of mind and heart.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

God's seventh day Sabbath is a sign of that exact rest. It is a sign that it is God who sanctifies the sinner, not the sinners own works.

Exo 31:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

It is a shame, that the commandment given to humanity as a sign that it is the Lord who sanctifies us, has been pronounced a sign of legalism by fallen humanity. Go figure.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #124 on: Mon Nov 05, 2018 - 04:16:53 »
Yes it is, and I have considered it often. The first four commandments deal with the basic elements of ones love for or to God, the last six toward our brothers and sisters. God did not establish legalism at any time anywhere. The same God who said -

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Also said -

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.


Even if one presumes that Jesus commandments are different in the new covenant than they were during the old one, it cannot be denied that if the keeping of the commandments during the old was living by the letter of the law, then the keeping of any commandments during the new covenant would be as well. Yet God has taught us in both, that it is those who keep His commandments, that love Him and are in His love. As many other scriptures do as well.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Due 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD..........................
33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. 34 [But] the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I [am] the LORD your God.

Due 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, 13 To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?


Love has always been the standard motive for keeping the commandments of God. This who keep it without such, keep it according to the letter. Those who keep it because of such, keep it by the spirit. Neither has anything to do with a time frame, but rather a frame of mind and heart.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

God's seventh day Sabbath is a sign of that exact rest. It is a sign that it is God who sanctifies the sinner, not the sinners own works.

Exo 31:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

It is a shame, that the commandment given to humanity as a sign that it is the Lord who sanctifies us, has been pronounced a sign of legalism by fallen humanity. Go figure.

Legalism or not, is not the issue I brought up.

Amo, the issue I brought up with your contention that Christians should follow and fulfill the 4th commandment by the letter, is this:

That we, Christians, should serve the Lord God in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. As Jesus said to the Samaritan woman, "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

And that Love is the fulfillment of the law, the law which includes the 4th commandment. 

Now, I don't have any issue if you take it upon yourself that you do as the Jews do on the Sabbath by the letter, or perhaps in your own way as you see it should be done. I am a Christian and am neither Gentile nor a Jew, and so are every other Christian. We are in covenant with God, not of the old but of the new. Our mediator is Christ and not Moses. Unlike the Jews, we are not under the Law of Moses but under the grace of Christ. 

Regarding your first paragraph, while I agree that in the ten commandments, there are those involving the love for God as there are, the love for mother and father, and love for neighbor. But I don't really see any distinction there. For the love of mother and father, of brothers and sisters, of neighbor, is the love of God, and vise versa. What I see and have learned from these commandments is Love. As such, indeed scriptures says that Love is the fulfillment of the law.

In Christ we are free, having been freed from the law. Not that we are free to do what is contrary to the law or that we no longer should remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy, but that, we are not in bondage to it any longer, to the rules, regulations, the do's and don'ts, and judgements contained in the law.

You said "Even if one presumes that Jesus commandments are different in the new covenant than they were during the old one, it cannot be denied that if the keeping of the commandments during the old was living by the letter of the law, then the keeping of any commandments during the new covenant would be as well."

I beg to disagree Amo. As I said, the Christians are to be living according to the Spirit and not living according to the letter. For as scriptures said "the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life". And while it may be, as pertaining to the law, that the man who does them shall live by them, the scriptures clearly pointed out that no one had been justified by the law in the sight of God, for all had transgressed the law, one way or the other. But praise be to the Lord Jesus Christ, that we have been justified freely by His grace, through faith.

As for me then, if you keep the Sabbath as you take it to be, then it is for you. That's good for you, if done in faith. But if a Christian put the keeping of the Sabbath as you keep it, as to put judgment on other Christians who does not do as you do, ought the Christian not do that? Ought we not to judge anyone in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths? 

Amo, may I ask a couple of questions.

If you believe and insist that the Christian should not break the Sabbath, wherein death is the penalty in the OT according to the law for anyone who breaks the law of the Sabbath, what do you say is the penalty for one who breaks the Sabbath today,  by not keeping it in the same day and manner as you do? What penalty do your congregation have for one who breaks the Sabbath? Do you hold the Sabbath as highly as to have the penalty of death to one who breaks it? If not, why is that?
 
Still on the Law of the Sabbath, may I ask you what you have to say about this, when it speaks of a year, not a day?

Exodus 23:10-11
10 “Six years you shall sow your land and gather in its produce, 11 but the seventh year you shall let it rest and lie fallow, that the poor of your people may eat; and what they leave, the beasts of the field may eat. In like manner you shall do with your vineyard and your olive grove.

Offline RB

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #125 on: Mon Nov 05, 2018 - 04:33:30 »
Michael, you did an outstanding job in the post above to Amo, who without question has a zeal of God, fears and loves God, just not based on true knowledge.

Offline RB

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #126 on: Mon Nov 05, 2018 - 04:59:54 »
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 3:9~So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
If a person believes the promises of God in the gospel, even heathen Gentiles, they are partakers in the blessings God promised to Abraham through the faith of Jesus Christ, and we believe IN HIM, not trusting our works of obedience, but his ALONE.  It is important to note again: Being “of faith” means trusting Jesus Christ and His work alone for justification and not any works of the Law, for Abraham’s faith was the believing of God’s promises proving His eternal life or....... his sonship. .

How was Abraham blessed? God declared him righteous based on the evidence of his faith, which we have declared for us by the scriptures, when we believe God’s grace in Christ. God’s blessing is spiritual~Jesus Christ; and the evidence for it is spiritual~faith in Christ...Galatians 2:16.  Gentiles can be intimately related to Abraham, the father of Israel and the Jews, though they never heard of Moses, his Law, or ever considered circumcision or the evil of bacon.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 3:10~"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."
The quotation here proving Law duty from the Old Testament is taken from Deut 27:26. Looking to the Law (or a WORK BASE SYSTEM) for justification leaves you condemned, because no man can keep it all. Paul had already declared this fact for even Jews in his recorded rebuke of Peter (2:16). If a person trusted the Law for righteousness, he missed God’s promise of FREE justification through the birth, life and death of Jesus Christ.

We shall learn before leaving the chapter, the Law was given to bring the elect to SEE the NEED OF Christ (3:21-26), and Paul taught its purpose was to make us exceedingly sinful before God (Rom 7:9-14) when rightly understood.

Do we all remember how UNrighteous we felt after hearing the Sermon on the Mount explained with our Lord’s broad definitions to include even the attitude of the heart?

The curse of the Law has been totally destroyed by the perfect life of Jesus Christ our Lord (3:13)!

We ask: Is the issue here the status of Galatians in heaven, or the integrity of their religious system? What was the eternal, legal, and vital status of Cornelius before Peter (Acts 10:34-35)? If we go ahead to Paul’s reasoning in 5:1-7, we see he is dealing with religious systems WORKS vss GRACE for justification.

Paul knew the Galatians were already justified before God (1:1-5; 3:2; 4:4-6,19,28; 5:1).

Confusion about justification does not alter God’s purpose (Ephesians 1:3-6; 2nd Timothy 2:13)~but it will destroy our peace and joy and causes one to think more of themselves and LESS of Christ.
 
God's elect are freely justified through the obedience of Jesus Christ, but many are not fully converted to the truth of it. (Romans 8:29-34; 10:1-5; 2nd Timothy 2:10).
« Last Edit: Mon Nov 05, 2018 - 05:06:49 by RB »

Offline grams

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #127 on: Tue Nov 06, 2018 - 08:46:28 »
I  am  83  and was brought up in a Catholic Church!
And the rules were way different in the one  that I attended !

I had a brother and sister who were brought up in a different C. C.
and were  thought  different, which I did not know back then.

Now I know they have changed !   But wonder  how many  did not make
it to heaven ?????  It is so  ???????  scare to think on this...

I now go to a  bible church and  have learned so much.
But what I believe and try to  say here and to other people  "at my age"
is not always clear  .  Hope all over here have a understanding of me
by now ? 
We  were  never told to get a bible !!!!   So the prayer book was it !

And now  I understand the difference in the old Test. and the New Test.

"Old and new Testaments"
The times now are so different ........... 

Offline RB

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #128 on: Tue Nov 06, 2018 - 08:57:50 »
Now I know they have changed !   But wonder  how many  did not make it to heaven ?????  It is so  ???????  scare to think on this...
Dear precious soul~one's knowledge has NOT ONE THING to do with them going heaven~because we ALL have less knowledge of the truth then we should have, even the very best of God's children.
Quote from: grams on: Today at 08:46:28
I now go to a  bible church and  have learned so much.
Sister, you are no more regenerated in your bible church than you were in RCC~all you have gotten is just more knowledge of the truth, which brings more comfort, peace, and joy, NOTHING MORE as far ADDING to your salvation from sin and condemnation than what CHRIST PURCHASED for you by his own blood. REST IN PEACE and thank God for Jesus Christ, whom you are trusting in.
« Last Edit: Tue Nov 06, 2018 - 09:00:20 by RB »

Online NorrinRadd

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #129 on: Sat Nov 17, 2018 - 04:35:55 »
...
Yes, people do each select scriptures to support their own particular views.

I do not believe that is a fair characterization of what you quoted from my Reply #29:

"Each of us finds certain Scriptures "clear," "definitive," "convincing," etc. ..."

Whether you intended it so or not, one could easily draw the inference that you believe these "people" to whom you allude start with some idea they like, and then search out Scriptures to buttress their view.  That was definitely not my meaning, and if your claim is that is what I am doing, you are wrong.


Quote
The goal hopefully, is to come to a correct knowledge and understanding of what God's word actually teaches, rather than that which so very many teach in contradiction to each other and the scriptures themselves. Your final conclusion is the correct one. Jesus was God in the flesh. His words and teachings should be trusted as the standard by which all other scripture is rightly divided and or interpreted. If what we believe and or preach contradicts the words of God in the flesh, then what we believe is wrong, not the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Please do explain the seeming contradiction between what you are claiming the writings of certain apostles means in relation to the following words He who is King of kings, and Lord of lords spoke to humanity.

First of all, I will note that you apparently misread my final point, which you claimed to be "the correct one."  Here it is again, as you quoted it from Reply #29:

"I find John 6 to be clear, convincing, and definitive in showing that no good work, including obeying the "Love Commandment," is necessary to obtain eternal life; rather all that is necessary is to trust Jesus."

What I said is that faith in Jesus, in and of itself, is, per John 6, the only thing needed to obtain eternal life.  No works are needed, including the work of obeying the Love Commandment.

Now, on to your challenge:

Quote
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The first thing I will say is that you are speaking imprecisely.  The seeming contradiction is not between the words of Jesus and the writings of others; it is between the words the Spirit inspired certain authors to ascribe to Jesus and record in Scripture, and the words the Spirit inspired other authors to record in their own name (or anonymously, w.r.t. Hebrews).  IOW, Spirit-inspired writings vs. Spirit-inspired writings.

Relatedly, I will call back to that point above which you found to be "correct."  There, it is John's Spirit-inspired record of the words of Jesus Himself, not some other person, that stand in apparent contradiction to your quotation, i.e. Matthew's Spirit-inspired record of the words of Jesus -- Jesus vs. Jesus.

As for your quote itself:  At face value, it is in direct contradiction with Gal. 3-4, Rom. 14, Eph. 2, Col. 2, and various parts of Hebrews.  It is also in more than a little tension with Mark 2:27 and 7:19.  I have heard the explanation that Jesus "fulfilled" all the Law by obeying it perfectly and then in the Atonement taking the penalty due those who break it.  That seems plausible, but not iron-clad.

The bottom line is that I don't have an explanation that *completely* satisfies me; I have made my choice as to which horn of the dilemma to embrace.

Offline grams

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #130 on: Sat Nov 17, 2018 - 06:34:35 »

All those  years  being a Catholic   I did not know that JESUS went to
the cross for our sins......................!!!!!!!!!!

And never told to get a bible ..........!!!!!!!!!!!   

Now  at a bible church  my family has all been saved....
And we read the bible !
And my sons   preach......
Well the one with the  8 children  just  preaches  to his family now.
But the other one  even travels to different church's and  preaches.

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #131 on: Sat Nov 17, 2018 - 08:05:59 »
Quote
Choirloft #4
The Law IS relevant, for without it one cannot be saved.

The Law IS relevant, for without it no one can be condemned.

Quote
Choirloft #4
The purpose of the Law is to convict of sin.

Salvation begins with the Law,

"Wherefore then serveth the Law? It was added because of transgressions." "The Law entered that the offence might abound..." "I see another law in my members...the law of sin which is in my members" "...but where sin abounded, grace did much more abound."

Salvation ends with grace.
« Last Edit: Sat Nov 17, 2018 - 09:11:36 by Gerhard Ebersöhn »

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #132 on: Sat Nov 17, 2018 - 11:09:44 »
Michael0212 -
Quote
Legalism or not, is not the issue I brought up.

Amo, the issue I brought up with your contention that Christians should follow and fulfill the 4th commandment by the letter, is this:

I have never contended that anyone should keep any of God’s commandments by the letter of the law, but do always contend that they can only truly be kept by the Spirit of God within. The entire premise of your following argument therefore, is built upon a faulty premise created in your own mind, certainly not mine. You created an issue that does not exist, and then built an argument against it. Even your argument though, is built upon faulty premise as well. It requires completely ignoring conclusive statements spoken by Christ and Paul, and even the context out of which you tore the verses you quoted. Do you really suppose God, who is Spirit, spoke and wrote commandments that were not of the spirit, but of the letter? The commandments of God are unquestionably of the spirit, how and why one keeps them alone, can be of the letter rather than by the spirit. The commandments themselves are of the spirit, as Paul himself conclusively testifies(Rom 7:12-14).

Michae2012 -
Quote
That we, Christians, should serve the Lord God in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. As Jesus said to the Samaritan woman, "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

And that Love is the fulfillment of the law, the law which includes the 4th commandment.


Yes, yes, I know. I can take a few words here and there from scripture or any other writings out of context and make them mean whatever I wish as well. If you really knew and properly understood the writings of Paul, you would not be using them to discourage anyone from keeping any of God’s commandments. Love is the fulfillment of the law, and all should keep the law by the spirit and not the letter.

Neither of these truths however, equal no longer obeying God’s commandments, they simply point out the only proper motive for doing so in an acceptable manner before God. Which is being motivated by love for God and one’s brothers and sisters in response to the Holy Spirit of God working within. Not as a means of earning salvation, which is impossible. The former is selfless and of the spirit, the latter is selfish and of the flesh. The faulty premise of your above statement, is the assumption that actually doing what a commandment says, equals keeping the letter of the law. This is a lie, which you and yours really only apply to the fourth commandment I can only presume, because you do not want to keep it.

Keeping the law by the oldness of the letter is legalism. It is not concerning a time frame in history, so much as a state of being. The old man outside of Christ cannot keep the law of God but by the letter, for he is not a new creature in Christ Jesus, and cannot walk in the spirit. All attempts of the old man to keep God’s law are by the letter, according to the selfish and sinful motives of the flesh. Those who walk in the flesh cannot please God or keep His commandments, as opposed to those who walk in the spirit who can and do(Rom 8:6-9). This is what Paul’s writings from which you quoted point out when examined in context, which we will examine in more detail in my next post.

Walking in the spirit has nothing to do with ignoring any of the specifics of God’s commandments. Everyone easily understands that those who walk in the spirit still do not have other gods, worship idols, or take the Lord’s name in vain. They honor their mother and father, do not kill, commit adultery, steal, bear false witness, or covet the things of others. If or when they do, they understand this to be sin, and seek forgiveness from God and or the offended and rightly so.

Yet when it comes to the fourth commandment, they either claim it no longer needs to be kept, or define some new way it is to be kept which excludes a specific day of observance according to the commandment found nowhere in scripture. They claim this is keeping the fourth commandment by the spirit. At the same time, most of them observe another day as holy which is not found in scripture or supported by the same. They uphold this tradition of men above a commandment of God, and have even forced its observance upon many throughout history and continue to do so today. This of course they all claim to be living by the spirit motivated by love, and not the old letter of the law. Go figure.

Michael2012 -
Quote
Now, I don't have any issue if you take it upon yourself that you do as the Jews do on the Sabbath by the letter, or perhaps in your own way as you see it should be done. I am a Christian and am neither Gentile nor a Jew, and so are every other Christian. We are in covenant with God, not of the old but of the new. Our mediator is Christ and not Moses. Unlike the Jews, we are not under the Law of Moses but under the grace of Christ.
 

So very much wrong with your above statement. I tell you the truth brother, your false accusations against me and all who have and would keep God’s fourth commandment according to the spirit, will not pass by with impunity before God. Regardless of what you choose to believe, it is still a sin against God and humanity to bear false witness against either. If keeping the fourth commandment is keeping the Sabbath by the letter, then you falsely accuse God of establishing such. You claim that God who is Spirit, demanded that the Jews keep His commandment by the letter. You bear false witness against God.

The ten commandments are not Moses’ law. This is a lie, that far to many professed “Christians” accept and teach as truth. God calls them His many times over in scripture, and calls the Sabbath His as well many times over. You ignore this and continue to claim that both are Moses’ and for the Jews alone I can only presume, to support these false teachings. Those who choose to believe a lie, are left with nothing but deception and delusion, which God will finally give all such over to in the near future(2 Thess 2:9-11).

There is and only ever has been one mediator between fallen humanity and God, the Lord Jesus Christ. Your suggestion that Moses stood in the place of Christ as mediator for the Jews or anyone else is false. Just who do you think Moses communed with, and was instructed and directed by?

1 Cor 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Jesus Christ was and is the central figure of both the old and new covenants. All that Moses ever did was at His command, and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ has not ever established the keeping of the letter of the law, whatever you suppose that might be. You have the same problem the Jews of Moses day did, you actually think it was Moses that was leading them. I do not believe you correctly understand the scriptures or who exactly Jesus Christ is at all. He is the God of the old and new testaments.

Christ was the Angel of the buring bush, “and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace(Isa 9:6). He was and is the Lion of the tribe of Judah, Son of man, Son of God, High Priest, stone, Lamb, THE WORD OF GOD, I am, King of kings, Lord of lords, Savior, Messiah, The way, The truth, The life, The bread of life, The door, The rock, and I’m sure many that I have not thought of. If you think He ever established the letter of the law, you do not know Him. Fallen humanity and sinners alone are capable of keeping the letter of the law, for they are the only ones outside of Christ who can and do walk according to the flesh. God did not establish such in any way, shape, or form. This faulty premise exists only in the minds of those denying truth.

It is true that we are not under the laws of Moses which were specifically for the literal nation of Israel, written by his own hand at the dictation of God. Nor are those in Christ still under the condemnation of God’s law, spoken by the mouth of God to humanity, and written with His own finger twice for the same. This in no way, shape, or form, means that those in Christ will not keep all the commandments of God. The new testament and covenant scriptures say that they will up to the very last book and chapter of the same. You simply ignore this, I presume because you do not want to keep one of them.

Rev 12:7And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

14:12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


You ignore the above, and the following testimony of Jesus Christ. Therefore you do not keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Michael2012 -
Quote
Regarding your first paragraph, while I agree that in the ten commandments, there are those involving the love for God as there are, the love for mother and father, and love for neighbor. But I don't really see any distinction there. For the love of mother and father, of brothers and sisters, of neighbor, is the love of God, and vise versa. What I see and have learned from these commandments is Love. As such, indeed scriptures says that Love is the fulfillment of the law.

Yes I know, the testimony of Jesus Christ is not as important to you, as what you think. Therefore, you acknowledge that love is the fulfillment of the law according to scripture, but see no distinction where the testimony of Jesus Christ placed one. You accept and acknowledge scriptures which support that which you have chosen to believe, and ignore those which don’t.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Michael2012 -
Quote
In Christ we are free, having been freed from the law. Not that we are free to do what is contrary to the law or that we no longer should remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy, but that, we are not in bondage to it any longer, to the rules, regulations, the do's and don'ts, and judgements contained in the law.

The law of God is considered bondage to the unsaved only. Even Paul whose writings you base most of your false gospel upon, says the law is good, just, holy, and spiritual(Rom 7:12-14). How call you obeying that which is good, just, holy, and spiritual, bondage? Are you not carnal for doing so? It is the carnal nature that is not subject to the law, nor can be(Rom 8:6-8). The saved are freed from the condemnation of the law, not the rule of law. This is why, when they sin(1 Joh 3:4), they have and need an advocate with the Father who can grant forgiveness to the truly repentant(1 Joh 2:1). Only those who break the law, are in bondage to the penalty of it.

Those who have died in Christ by faith, have been freed from that penalty(Rom 6:1-7, 7:4-6). They have not been freed from doing that which is good, just, holy, and spiritual, but from the penalty of the law against their sins. This that they might become new creatures in Christ Jesus being good, just, holy, and spiritual. Against such there is no condemnation or bondage from the law. Only law breakers are condemned and in bondage to the laws they break. There is no law against law keepers, who walk according to the spirit only, and not the flesh(Gal 5:22-25).

Contrary to your above statement, anyone who breaks the law, is still subject to the judgment of the law. If they do not seek and obtain forgiveness in Christ Jesus, they will also pay the penalty the law demands. No one who decides to routinely break God’s law without seeking forgiveness and repentance from God in Christ, will be justified in Christ either.

Rom2:11For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Michael2012 -
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You said "Even if one presumes that Jesus commandments are different in the new covenant than they were during the old one, it cannot be denied that if the keeping of the commandments during the old was living by the letter of the law, then the keeping of any commandments during the new covenant would be as well."

I beg to disagree Amo. As I said, the Christians are to be living according to the Spirit and not living according to the letter. For as scriptures said "the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life". And while it may be, as pertaining to the law, that the man who does them shall live by them, the scriptures clearly pointed out that no one had been justified by the law in the sight of God, for all had transgressed the law, one way or the other. But praise be to the Lord Jesus Christ, that we have been justified freely by His grace, through faith.

It is not possible for one walking in the Spirit to break the law, or live by the letter of the law. As pointed out in the last verse I quoted by the same apostle you base all you arguments upon, it is the doers of the law that are justified. They can only do the law because they have been forgiven, entered into Christ’s death by faith, and walk as new creatures in Christ Jesus by the Spirit.

It is only the carnal nature that seeks to live by the letter of the law. Read Romans 7 again, and note that the woman who wants to be married to another man while already married keeps the law by the letter because she truly desires to be married to another according to the carnal nature, but the law forbids it. She obeys it out of fear, she is in bondage to it because her true wants and desires are against it. She can only be released from the letter of the law, if or when her husband dies. If she accepted her death, the death of her carnal nature in Christ Jesus and chose to walk by the Spirit in newness of life, she would no longer desire the carnal but the spiritual. She could serve the law by the Spirit out of love for God, and not by the letter as a burden upon the desires of her carnal nature.

So we are to reckon ourselves as dead to the law. Not that the law is dead, it was never alive, it is simply the standard. We are to be dead to the law, not kill or pronounce the law dead, it was never alive. The old carnal nature which can only serve by the letter of the law must die by faith in Christ, that the new creature in Christ Jesus might walk by the Spirit and serve the law by love. The law of God is a standard which will never go away. It does not need to change or be modified, we do. If or when it will ever be changed or modified, it will be by God alone, no one else can change that which God has established. According to His word, and those of His Son Jesus Christ our Savior, it will not change till heaven and earth pass. Thus all who claim any one of the commandments of God have changed, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. So be it.

Michael2012 -
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As for me then, if you keep the Sabbath as you take it to be, then it is for you. That's good for you, if done in faith. But if a Christian put the keeping of the Sabbath as you keep it, as to put judgment on other Christians who does not do as you do, ought the Christian not do that? Ought we not to judge anyone in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths?

No we should not judge anyone concerning laws given by God to Moses specifically for the nation of Israel after the commandments and doctrines of men, as the scripture you refer to point out. None of which have anything to do with the Ten Commandments of God. The former were written by the hand of Moses, the latter by the hand of God. The sabbaths mentioned were the various sabbaths of the laws specific to the Jewish nation written by the hand of Moses, referred to by Paul as the doctrines and commandments of men. They have nothing to do with the seventh day Sabbath established by God at the end of creation, reaffirmed and commanded by God audibly to Israel and written with His own hand as part of His Ten Commandments, which will be observed in the new heaven and new earth as well.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

It is not for us to judge but what is right or wrong for ourselves. It is certainly right to warn those you believe are in danger though, of the danger they are in. I believe any who reject the authority of any of the Ten Commandments of God, are in danger for doing so. 

Michael2012 -
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Amo, may I ask a couple of questions.

If you believe and insist that the Christian should not break the Sabbath, wherein death is the penalty in the OT according to the law for anyone who breaks the law of the Sabbath, what do you say is the penalty for one who breaks the Sabbath today,  by not keeping it in the same day and manner as you do? What penalty do your congregation have for one who breaks the Sabbath? Do you hold the Sabbath as highly as to have the penalty of death to one who breaks it? If not, why is that?

There is more than one reason for that. Their is no literal nation of God on earth in this new covenant era, being literally lead by the demonstration, voice, and written testimony of God Himself, fighting literal battles with their literal enemies at God’s immediate command. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ has provided the living example of the spiritual battle His own are to fight in this new covenant era. Lest you forget, that penalty was to be executed by a people upon a people who had personally entered into a covenant with God, and witnessed one stupendous miracle after another performed on their behalf by God. A people who were protected every day by a cloud shielding them form the sun, and every night by a pillar of fire warming their entire camp, who also were miraculously fed every day by God, and all of this for forty years. A people who witnessed God descend upon a mountain which mountain burned and smoked like a chimney stack at His presence. Who heard the Ten commandments including the fourth spoken to them by the mouth of God, and had them written for them with His own hand in tables of stone twice.

It is one thing for God to pronounce the sentence of death upon those who would break His commandments when He is directly, visibly, verbally, and miraculously leading His people. It is another altogether for mere men to do so, who claim to be following the example God has provided us through His Son Jesus Christ, who taught or did no such thing in the establishment of this new covenant era. The same God who pronounced the death sentence upon law breakers claiming to be His own during the old covenant, has pronounced the same sentence against those who choose to break His law during this new covenant as well.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

During the old covenant, God established His people and nation directly and miraculously. As God literally leading His people, He commanded the death of those claiming to be His own while blatantly rejecting His authority through disobedience to the same. Those faithful to Him, were to execute this judgment. As scripture clearly points out, His people eventually rejected that leadership altogether in asking for a king to lead them instead. This of course made a compete mess of everything.

During this new covenant era, our same God became flesh, one of us. One of the main reasons for this, but certainly not the only reason, was to lead during this new covenant era by way of living example. As God in the flesh, He has called all to pick up their crosses and follow Him. He has asked all to personally accept Him as their true and loving God, and follow the example He has personally provided in the flesh of how and what His own should choose to be. This faith includes the keeping of the commandments of God, as our Lord Jesus Christ clearly and conclusively taught and lived while here in the flesh as our perfect example.

The sentence of death is still pronounced upon all who will reject God’s absolute authority. Which authority He has proved to be pure, just, holy, and above reproach in and through Jesus Christ our Lord. Our God no longer asks His own to execute His judgment upon those who reject Him, but rather has appointed a day in which He Himself will execute the same. This truth should be blatantly obvious to all who claim to be followers of Jesus Christ, though perhaps you do not rightly understand this, since you seem to need instruction regarding the same. The sentence against those who choose to break God’s law has not changed. The manner and mode of that execution has been changed. All who reject the rightful authority and witness of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, will be left to face the judgment of God alone. The end of which is death.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Why do you reject the living example and conclusive teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, for speculative theories built upon twisted interpretations of the writings of the apostle Paul? Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ kept the seventh day sabbath according to the commandments of God, taught and exemplified its proper observance on several occasions, and conclusively stated that He did not come to abolish or change the ten commandments in any way shape or form. Also conclusively stating that they could nit and would not change until heaven and earth pass away.

Why will you reject such clarified truth from the Son of God, for obscure theories promoted by supposed theologians concerning twisted perceptions of the writings of Paul? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in Paul’s name, or into his death? Was Paul God in the flesh? Is Paul your Messiah, or is Jesus Christ the Lord? Rightly divide the word of God, and subject Paul’s writings to the clear and concise teachings and living example of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, not the other way around.

If you will take the time to do so, you will find that God pronounced the death penalty upon the breakers of most of His commandments during the old covenant, and particularly while establishing the nation of Israel. Does this mean that ow we are at liberty to break or change them? You yourself confess that this is not so, so why would this be so concerning only one commandment? Is it not because you do not wish to keep said commandment? Why do you hold a standard over the keeping of the fourth commandment, which you do not hold over the keeping of the others? If we no longer need to keep the fourth commandment because God pronounced the death penalty against those breaking it when He directly lead the nation of Israel, why need any keep any of the others with which He did the same?
 
Michael2012 -
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Still on the Law of the Sabbath, may I ask you what you have to say about this, when it speaks of a year, not a day?

Exodus 23:10-11
10 “Six years you shall sow your land and gather in its produce, 11 but the seventh year you shall let it rest and lie fallow, that the poor of your people may eat; and what they leave, the beasts of the field may eat. In like manner you shall do with your vineyard and your olive grove.

The above is not one of the ten commandments of God at all. You know this, I can only presume you ignore or pretend you do not, so that you can confuse a simple matter. You do not want to keep the fourth commandment of God, so you compound it with that which is obsolete concerning the new covenant spiritual Israel, that you may feel free to do away with both. The above yearly sabbath is one of the sabbaths Paul was addressing when admonishing none to judge regarding doctrines and commandments of men. These are the commandments or laws written by the hand of Moses specific to the literal nation of Israel according to the old covenant. Not the commandments or law of God spoken by His own mouth, and written with His own hand, according to the everlasting covenant for the spiritual children of Abraham and Israel.

This you do concerning the only commandment most assuredly proved by scripture to be part of the everlasting covenant and not confined to the old or new. The seventh day Sabbath was established by God at creation before there was sin and or any need for an old and new covenant. This was 2000 years before there ever was a Jew. It was reestablished in the world among God’s chosen during the old covenant as a sign that God alone sanctifies His people. During which time also it was pronounced a blessing upon all people Jewish or not. Its observance was reestablished and properly taught again for the new covenant when our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ both taught and lived the same in establishing the new covenant. Finally, biblical prophecy predicts that it will be kept in the new heaven and new earth. Yet here you are denying all of the same scriptural evidence, and compounding the fourth commandment of God with the laws written by the hand of Moses specific to old covenant literal Israel, in an attempt to do away with its observance. Go figure.

I am not the one intentionally confusing this matter. The testimony of scripture is clear and concise concerning this matter. They admonish all to keep the commandments of God, which of course includes the fourth, all the way through to the last book and chapter. Those commandments have not, and will not change until heaven and earth pass. This is the testimony of Jesus Christ, King of kings, Lord of lords, and the only Savior of fallen humanity. I highly recommend you submit to the thus saith the Lord concerning the words of Jesus Christ, rather than the speculations of supposed “theologians” concerning the words of the apostle Paul.

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
« Last Edit: Sat Nov 17, 2018 - 11:12:43 by Amo »

Offline Amo

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #133 on: Sat Nov 17, 2018 - 17:14:09 »
I do not believe that is a fair characterization of what you quoted from my Reply #29:

"Each of us finds certain Scriptures "clear," "definitive," "convincing," etc. ..."

Whether you intended it so or not, one could easily draw the inference that you believe these "people" to whom you allude start with some idea they like, and then search out Scriptures to buttress their view.  That was definitely not my meaning, and if your claim is that is what I am doing, you are wrong.


First of all, I will note that you apparently misread my final point, which you claimed to be "the correct one."  Here it is again, as you quoted it from Reply #29:

"I find John 6 to be clear, convincing, and definitive in showing that no good work, including obeying the "Love Commandment," is necessary to obtain eternal life; rather all that is necessary is to trust Jesus."

What I said is that faith in Jesus, in and of itself, is, per John 6, the only thing needed to obtain eternal life.  No works are needed, including the work of obeying the Love Commandment.

Now, on to your challenge:

The first thing I will say is that you are speaking imprecisely.  The seeming contradiction is not between the words of Jesus and the writings of others; it is between the words the Spirit inspired certain authors to ascribe to Jesus and record in Scripture, and the words the Spirit inspired other authors to record in their own name (or anonymously, w.r.t. Hebrews).  IOW, Spirit-inspired writings vs. Spirit-inspired writings.

Relatedly, I will call back to that point above which you found to be "correct."  There, it is John's Spirit-inspired record of the words of Jesus Himself, not some other person, that stand in apparent contradiction to your quotation, i.e. Matthew's Spirit-inspired record of the words of Jesus -- Jesus vs. Jesus.

As for your quote itself:  At face value, it is in direct contradiction with Gal. 3-4, Rom. 14, Eph. 2, Col. 2, and various parts of Hebrews.  It is also in more than a little tension with Mark 2:27 and 7:19.  I have heard the explanation that Jesus "fulfilled" all the Law by obeying it perfectly and then in the Atonement taking the penalty due those who break it.  That seems plausible, but not iron-clad.

The bottom line is that I don't have an explanation that *completely* satisfies me; I have made my choice as to which horn of the dilemma to embrace.

I have no desire to quibble with you concerning exactly what you did or did not mean. I'm sure you know this better than I do.

I take trusting Jesus to incorporate believing His testimony recorded in scripture for the benefit of all humanity. I do not believe the scriptures are an obscure testimony subject to the often prejudiced or preconditioned perceptions of interpretation by fallen humanity. Scripture itself denies this premise.

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

No one will be saved by keeping God's commandments, but many will perish for breaking them. Salvation from the penalty of God's law is found in Christ Jesus alone. All who reject His intercession on our behalf will perish for breaking the commandments of God. Many also who profess Jesus, will perish as well, because they used Christ's salvation as an excuse to continue in sin, rather than the means salvation from it.

Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Insisting that no works are required in order to obtain salvation is correct. Insisting that no change or good works are required of the saved is a lie. By our fruits we are known. Those who willfully work iniquity after professing Christ without seeking true repentance and forgiveness will be lost. All who reject or deny truth, cannot seek true repentance or forgiveness in such a state, thus they will be lost. So testify the scriptures.

2 Thess 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

It is one thing to deny that anyone can be saved by works, it is another altogether to deny that the saved are saved unto good works. Salvation is by faith alone unto justification, sanctification is by faith alone unto the righteousness of a new creature in Christ Jesus. The rejection of either, causes the loss of both. Profession and practice can both be faked. God alone can and will decide and judge each individual case.

Eph2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Shall we say that those "created in Christ Jesus unto good works", if they never produce good works, are saved. Of course not. We are not the thief on the cross. The lives we live, and the choices we make, will prove our profession genuine, or a farce. God will judge these things, as the scriptures conclusively state in many places.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

You of course have the right to believe the testimony of Holy Spirit inspired writers contradict each other if you wish, I continue to maintain that it is fallen humanities perceptions that contradict each other, not the word of God. As I consider it, you only perceive that Gal 3&4 contradict the words of Christ concerning the law, because you separate chapters 3 & 4 from the context established in chapters 1 & 2, and touched upon in verse ten of chapter 4. The subject matter is once again in relation to circumcision, and the observance of days, months, and years. Things pertaining to the laws specific to the Jews alone, and not the ten commandments of God.

It is the constant compounding of God’s law with those specific to Israel alone, that creates the confusion of the matter. Though the scriptures point out the difference between them, those keen to disregard the fourth commandment do always compound the two, that they might freely disregard the fourth commandment of God. Along with this discrepancy, is the constant claim that the removal of the curse or penalty of the law of God by the sacrifice of Christ, equals the abolishment of the law of God as the standard it has always been. Both of these claims are the chosen perception of those who would do away with the observance of the fourth commandment. Neither is truth.

The law of God never made anyone righteous, it never saved anyone, and it never will. Being dead to the law has nothing to do with the law dying, it cannot die because it has never been alive. Only the sinner can die to the curse or penalty of the law in Christ Jesus their Lord. This for the exact purpose of becoming law keepers as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was, not law breakers seeking a get to heaven free card. To the contrary, following Christ means sacrificing everything. It entails picking up one’s cross and following Christ first into His death, that the old man(the sinner) might die with and in Him, that the new creature in Christ Jesus(the righteous) might continue to follow in His footsteps that the will of God might be fulfilled in them as it was in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

The apostle Paul points these truths out very clearly and concisely. Those however, who desire another gospel, avoid Paul’s words describing this exact process, and cling to his words which support their own version of the gospel.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

God is Spirit, and His law is of the Spirit. It is the carnal mind of the flesh that is not subject to God’s law, not those who walk by the Spirit of God. The Lord Jesus Christ was God in our flesh. He walked by the Spirit of God in our flesh. As such He kept all the commandments of God, including the fourth. He offers us this same life for ourselves if we will enter into His death, the death of our carnal flesh, He will send His Spirit to us that we may walk according to the same. For he came to condemn sin in the flesh, not the law, that sin in the flesh might be replaced by the Spirit of God in the flesh. Those who claim to follow Him, should of course do as He did and taught.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The law of God is the basic standard of the actions of those living in the Spirit. It cannot make anyone righteous, or somehow insert righteousness into them, and it never could. It is used by the Spirit of God to first convict the sinner of their guilt, and then lead them to repentance and forgiveness in Christ Jesus. That they might be converted from selfish law breaking sinners, into Christ like loving law keepers who walk by the Spirit and not the flesh. Being dead to the law, is about our condition, not its condition. It is the standard that does not change, we are the sinners that must change. We must be dead to sin, which alone empowers the law over us. The law of God does not need to die, it was never alive. Its standard has power only over those outside of Christ who still seek to break it according to the desires of the flesh, in contrast to those of the Spirit. Read Romans chapters 6-8 again and understand that it is the sinner that needs to die, not the law of God that needs to change. We are crucified in Christ, not God’s law.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Offline grams

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #134 on: Sat Nov 17, 2018 - 18:39:27 »

Eph.2:

 
8

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
 

9

Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 
 

Offline Alan

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #135 on: Sat Nov 17, 2018 - 19:14:21 »
Eph.2:

 
8

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
 

9

Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 
 



 ::frustrated::

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #136 on: Sun Nov 18, 2018 - 02:22:24 »
Quote
Amo:
false accusations against me and all who have and would keep God’s fourth commandment according to the spirit, will not pass by with impunity before God.

What is 'impunity'? 'false accusations against me and all who have and would keep God’s fourth commandment according to the spirit, will not pass by with impunity before God'. Right! that's impunity, claiming you and or others 'keep God’s fourth commandment', indeed 'according to the spirit' meant to be God's Holy Spirit!

Offline Amo

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #137 on: Sun Nov 18, 2018 - 19:51:58 »
What is 'impunity'? 'false accusations against me and all who have and would keep God’s fourth commandment according to the spirit, will not pass by with impunity before God'. Right! that's impunity, claiming you and or others 'keep God’s fourth commandment', indeed 'according to the spirit' meant to be God's Holy Spirit!

Impunity - exemption from punishment or freedom from the injurious consequences of an action: the impunity enjoyed by military officers implicated in civilian killings | protesters burned flags on the streets with impunity.

The false accusation is that those who keep the fourth commandment do so by the letter of the law, in accordance with legalism. As opposed to keeping it by faith in God's word under the conviction of the Holy Spirit of God. While it is possible to keep the fourth or any other of the ten commandments according to the letter or flesh, it is false to accuse all who would do so of such.

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #138 on: Sun Nov 18, 2018 - 22:33:09 »
Quote
Amo:
that Love is the fulfillment of the law, the law which includes the 4th commandment.

Only God's love through Jesus Christ 'is the fulfillment of the law' unless man thinks 'the Spirit within' is God. Spelled uppercase or lower case 'the Spirit within' is not God; it is man and of man. "God is Spirit" in His Own (right) in Himself, not in any sinner, man!

Fulfilment of the Law : of : God, including the 4th commandment, is: "CHRIST the All in all fulfilling Fullness : of : GOD".






« Last Edit: Sun Nov 18, 2018 - 22:41:30 by Gerhard Ebersöhn »

Offline Gerhard Ebersöhn

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Re: The Old Testement & The New Testement ?
« Reply #139 on: Sun Nov 18, 2018 - 23:02:50 »
Quote
Amo:
The false accusation is that those who keep the fourth commandment do so by the letter of the law, in accordance with legalism. As opposed to keeping it by faith in God's word under the conviction of the Holy Spirit of God. While it is possible to keep the fourth or any other of the ten commandments according to the letter or flesh, it is false to accuse all who would do so of such.

It's no 'false accusation', it is the false claim of arrogance, 'impunity', that any 'keep the fourth commandment by faith in God's word under the conviction of the Holy Spirit of God'. There is NONE who keep the Command of God no matter which and there is no one who must not die for his transgression no matter of which Law of God!

While it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep the Fourth or the Ten Commandments or The Law to love God and our neighbour according to the letter or flesh, what according to the spirit, it must be false to even suppose any could, what, do! Whatever God has made Law He made Law BECAUSE man by nature is the transgressor of Divine Principle all his life as all his existence.
« Last Edit: Sun Nov 18, 2018 - 23:33:41 by Gerhard Ebersöhn »