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Offline LaSpino3

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What happened to them?
« on: Wed May 09, 2018 - 10:53:28 »
I would like you to consider the question asked in the context of the three following verses.

Ecclesiastes 3:20, When we die, it is written, “All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.”

Hebrews 9:27, Concerning all those who have died: “And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the judgment.”

2 Corinthians 5:10, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he has done, whether it be good or bad.”

Here are the verses in question:

Matt.27:52-53, “And the graves (of the dead) were opened; and many (meaning numerous) bodies of the SAINTS which slept (the dead) arose (were brought back to life as was the Lord). And (those who had been dead) came out of the graves and AFTER his (Jesus) resurrection (who was raised from the dead) and (they) went (walked) into the holy city (Jerusalem); and appeared (were witnessed by) many.”

My question, what happened to these saints of God? There are three possibilities,

1.   They died again.

2.   They were taken into heaven with the Lord:

3.   They have remained on the earth, having incorruptible resurrected bodies as did the Lord Jesus, and for the past 2000 years they have been doing the Lord’s work in conjunction with the Holy Spirit.

Think about it before you answer, and if possible use scripture to support your answers.
Laspino3


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What happened to them?
« on: Wed May 09, 2018 - 10:53:28 »

Offline the_sign

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #1 on: Thu May 10, 2018 - 00:55:36 »
Matt.27:52-53, “And the graves (of the dead) were opened; and many (meaning numerous) bodies of the SAINTS which slept (the dead) arose (were brought back to life as was the Lord). And (those who had been dead) came out of the graves and AFTER his (Jesus) resurrection (who was raised from the dead) and (they) went (walked) into the holy city (Jerusalem); and appeared (were witnessed by) many.”

The gift of the Holy Spirit for this is called bi-location.

Their bodies remained in the opened graves, yet they were seen elsewhere.

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #1 on: Thu May 10, 2018 - 00:55:36 »

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #2 on: Thu May 10, 2018 - 08:30:32 »
Sign: Hmmmmm, "bi-location."

Never heard of it! I know it's not a word found in any Bible, even the corrupted ones. So I looked in my Britannica Webster dictionary; nope, not there either. 

Synonyms for this Greek word "arose" found in Matthew 27:52 are, to wake, to arouse, to cause to rise up, lift, lifted. As a transitive verb, it expresses action that passes from the agent (God) to the object (those who were dead, but now made alive.) And also used as a middle term of syllogism, which is a term used when two extremes (dead --- alive) are separately compared, and by means of which they are brought together, (the dead made alive again.

This particular Greek word is applied to Jesus being raised; of O.T. saints being raised, those having died under law: and Christians who have died in Christ. There is no evidence that the word is ever applied to unbelievers.

This particular word is also used in the following verses, and used in the following way,

1 Corinthians 15:12, "Now if Christ be preached that He ROSE from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?"

1 Corinthians 15:14, "And if Christ be not RISEN then is our preaching in vain."

1 Corinthians 15:42-43-44, "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is RAISED in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is RAISED in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is RAISED in power. It is sown a natural body; it is RAISED a spiritual body, and there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body"   

1 Corinthians 15:52-53, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be RAISED incorruptible."

Matthew 27:52, "And the graves were opened; and many of the saints (O.T. Jews) which slept AROSE And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."  Thus, to raise the dead;

John 5:21, "For as the Father RAISED up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son (Jesus) quickeneth whom He will."

Bottom line, if I apply what you call bi-location to Jesus, then the Lord's body must have also remain in the grave, and seen elsewhere because its the same Greek word.

So I would have to conclude, Hmmmmm, respectifully, your WRONG!
Laspino3


Offline the_sign

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #3 on: Thu May 10, 2018 - 19:22:33 »
Bottom line, if I apply what you call bi-location to Jesus,

That would be wrong for Jesus is the Christ.  However, to impart the gift even to saints who have fallen asleep is only within the scope of "what is impossible for man shall be possible for God".

When Jesus said while in plain view of His disciples that "many have longed to see" what they were beholding, viz., the Son of Man, "which is in Heaven", He established the core basis of what bi-location is.  (I prefer to use a hyphen [to avoid a "bilious" type pronunciation], but bilocation is more common.)

For the first time in history, the infinite God of spirit which Jesus described to the Samaritan woman at the well met in flesh, "The Father and I are one."

Some saints have been known in particular to have the gift (i.e., St. Padre Pio), and much like levitation, it is usually only found associated with mystics.

http://paranormal.wikia.com/wiki/Bilocation

I have seen and answered this same question on more than one occasion.  I find myself pondering miracles.  Lazarus was dead for several days, yet was raised bodily in the flesh.  I question whether it is Scripturally accurate to say that Lazarus died again, and I imagine that perhaps he is still among us; I have thought the same of St. John the Evangelist (Jesus asking Peter, "If it is my will that he remain, what is that to you?").

I find it a necessity to delineate the General Resurrection of the Dead with regard to the Book (prophecy) of Daniel, but there is also the permanently established resurrection with Christ's coming forth from His tomb.
« Last Edit: Fri May 11, 2018 - 05:47:33 by the_sign »

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #3 on: Thu May 10, 2018 - 19:22:33 »

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #4 on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 07:39:17 »
Sign, no disrespect, but I haven't a clue what you're talking about.

My guess is, you reject, 1-2 and 3 of my original post, and have added 4, four being this bi-lateral whatever you're tralking about? If yes, don't try to explain it to me, not interested! Is there anyone else that would like to comment on my original tread?

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #4 on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 07:39:17 »



Offline the_sign

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #5 on: Fri May 11, 2018 - 16:53:19 »
My guess is, you reject, 1-2 and 3 of my original post,

I haven't, but I've read about and have personal experience with bilocation.

In terms of your question and the choices you presented, I have found them weak.

I know for a fact that a person can be dead and still experience the gift of bilocation.

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #6 on: Sat May 12, 2018 - 10:21:05 »
Sign, "OK"!

Offline notreligus

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #7 on: Tue May 29, 2018 - 15:33:49 »
1Co 15:20  But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
1Co 15:21  For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.

I understand this passage to mean that Jesus Christ is the first fruits of the resurrection and He gained victory over death, Spiritual deah..  As such the soul/spirit of believers will go on to be with the Lord.

2Co 5:1  For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2  For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling,
2Co 5:3  if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked.
2Co 5:4  For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened--not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
2Co 5:5  He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
2Co 5:6  So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,
2Co 5:7  for we walk by faith, not by sight.
2Co 5:8  Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

When the physical bodies of those ones who were resurrected succumbed to death their spirits/souls went to be with the Lord.   

Offline Episcopius

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #8 on: Wed May 30, 2018 - 11:42:56 »
I think it's #2
They were eventually taken to heaven
Like Christ Himself, they may have appeared on earth for a while, then ascended.
I think they eventually went to heaven, as did the OT saints who were in "Paradise",
the OT Paradise across from hell by an impassable gulf - was emptied when Christ took them to heaven;
this was known as "the harrowing of hell"
why the ones that came out of their graves were different or special
I have no idea.

Offline the_sign

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #9 on: Thu Jun 07, 2018 - 09:47:13 »
I think it's #2
They were eventually taken to heaven
Like Christ Himself, they may have appeared on earth for a while, then ascended.
I think they eventually went to heaven, as did the OT saints who were in "Paradise", the OT Paradise across from hell by an impassable gulf - was emptied when Christ took them to heaven; this was known as "the harrowing of hell"
why the ones that came out of their graves were different or special I have no idea.
1.   They died again.

It can't be #1 as "it is allotted that man die once, and then the judgment".

2.   They were taken into heaven with the Lord:

Jesus said while He was dying, "Thou shalt be with me today in Paradise."  He also said, "If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto Me."  And He was lifted up on the first Ascension Thursday.  So #2 is the best answer.

3.   They have remained on the earth, having incorruptible resurrected bodies as did the Lord Jesus, and for the past 2000 years they have been doing the Lord’s work in conjunction with the Holy Spirit.

The problem with #3 is in translation, the original text stating only that tombs were opened and that many saints who had died then appeared, the gift of bilocation being the best explanation.

The fact that those saints did appear at all at that time is much the way when we celebrate the New Year, for example, and we have those funny tongue roll out thingies, hats, and noise makers - our Father was (is) celebrating the return of His Son.

Offline thedrumchannell

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #10 on: Thu Jul 26, 2018 - 16:10:11 »
Hebrews 9:27 says that men die once, so I am going to assume that these people did not suffer a second death. Perhaps, these people went to heaven and were with Jesus in the same fashion after He was resurrected from the grave.

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #11 on: Fri Jul 27, 2018 - 15:13:01 »
Concerning those in Matthew 27:52-52. For many years I have considered these ancient Jews who were raised just after the Lord was raised, who are the first-fruit unto Christ, were presented to teh Father then returned to the earth helping the faithful in doing the Lord's work. These may be the 144,000. Why would I believe that?

If you examine the attributes of the 144,000 in Revelation 14, verses 1 thru 5, I would be hard pressed to even thing of one mortal, just one that could even come close to fulfill the following qualifications.

1. Not defiled by women.

2. They are virgins.

3. They follow the Lamb wheresoever hegoes.

4. The are redeemed from among men,

5. They are the first fruits unto God the Father and the Lamb.

6. No deceit found in them.

7. They are without fault before the throne of God."

I believe this was the first wave offering unto the Father in heaven by his resurrected Son Jesus Christ.


Of course nobody would know who they were, but before the tribulation begins, they will gathered together, and sealed with the Father's mark on their forehead, then everyone will know who they are.

Laspino3

Offline lea

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #12 on: Sat Jul 28, 2018 - 13:08:35 »
#1- they died again. If 144k bodies came out of their graves at the time of Jesus' death, many, many more people would have acknowledged Jesus' miracles! The bodies arising from their graves were a sign that Jesus was the "Resurrection."

The Christian Hebrews who escaped those infernal LAST DAYS of the Old Covenant did not have the mark of the beast, and embodied “all Israel shall be saved”‘ of Romans 11:26. Their symbolic number in Revelation is 144,000 (12 tribes squared/Father & Son x 1000/many or 12² x 1000). Those with the mark of the beast were annihilated.

Those probably were or weren't in the count. Judah tribe occupied Jerusalem during Jesus' reign on earth.

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #13 on: Mon Jul 30, 2018 - 10:15:55 »
Lea,

Hebrews 9:27, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

The Greek word appointed,
It means to be laid away, to be laid up, for preservation, Luke 19:20. As a metaphor, To be in store for, to await any one, of persons. Spoken of rewards, Colossians 1:5, "Which is laid up for you in heaven" 2 Timothy 4:8. Spoken of death and of course, Hebrews 9:27, "It is appointed unto men once to die."

The greek word for many may surprise you, here's what it means. Many, much; and with a noun implying number or multitude, great, large. Without article, common form, Substantive noun, John 6:10, "There was much grass." John 15:5, "Much fruit." Acts 15:32, "With many words," with much discourse, many words. Acts 20:2, 16:16, "Much gain." Acts 22:28, "With a great sum." Matthew 13:5, "Much earth," soil. So with a noun of multitude, Acts 11:21, "A great number;" Acts 18:10, "Much people." Mark 5:24. John 6:2. Acts 14:1 "A great multitude." Acts 17:4. As a trope, Matthew 9:37, "The harvest truly is plenteous," compare with verse 36. Absolute, much, as in Luke 12:48, "To whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 16:10, "Much."Acts26:29, "Altogether such as I." Matt.26:9, to be, "Sold for much."

Laspino3

Offline lea

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #14 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 11:50:00 »
LaSpino3 said:
Quote
Of course nobody would know who they were, but before the tribulation begins, they will gathered together, and sealed with the Father's mark on their forehead, then everyone will know who they are.
Of course The Hebrews who heeded Jesus' warning about fleeing to the mountains in Matthew 24 were saved from God's wrath in the Roman/Jewish war. (Feb AD67-70 August) when the temple would be destroyed. The rest would die or be taken as slaves because they were not believers. "one will be taken, another left"  One dies, one taken as a slave to be sold eventually.
 
LaSpino3, the Hebrews 9:27 means just that.
Hebrews 9:27, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."
The Law had the priest enter the Holy of Holies once a year to atone for sins. Now Jesus atoned for them once and for all.
So, there is no metaphor when Hebrews says, "it is appointed for men to die once, then the judgment."
It is literally saying we don't get reincarnated and come back, but die, and go to heaven ( for believers.)

The rest of that post is irrelevant. As the Father gave life to whom He wills, The Son will also give life to whom He claims.

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #15 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 11:57:12 »
LaSpino3 said:Of course The Hebrews who heeded Jesus' warning about fleeing to the mountains in Matthew 24 were saved from God's wrath in the Roman/Jewish war. (Feb AD67-70 August) when the temple would be destroyed. The rest would die or be taken as slaves because they were not believers. "one will be taken, another left"  One dies, one taken as a slave to be sold eventually.
 
LaSpino3, the Hebrews 9:27 means just that.
Hebrews 9:27, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."
The Law had the priest enter the Holy of Holies once a year to atone for sins. Now Jesus atoned for them once and for all.
So, there is no metaphor when Hebrews says, "it is appointed for men to die once, then the judgment."
It is literally saying we don't get reincarnated and come back, but die, and go to heaven ( for believers.)

The rest of that post is irrelevant. As the Father gave life to whom He wills, The Son will also give life to whom He claims.
Hi; I wonder if any from a Gentile background - such as Ruth in the Old Testament, for example - were among those who rose from the dead as a vivid example of the power of the Resurrection of the Lord Jesus?

Offline lea

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #16 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 16:42:27 »
Hi; I wonder if any from a Gentile background - such as Ruth in the Old Testament, for example - were among those who rose from the dead as a vivid example of the power of the Resurrection of the Lord Jesus?
A good thought, but I think Ruth in reality would have made herself known when they "appeared to many."


Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #17 on: Tue Jul 31, 2018 - 19:25:33 »
LaSpino3  -  For the most part, you are right on target.  Your list of 7 attributes of the 144,000 Firstfruits in Rev. 14:4 is spot on - it describes the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints without a doubt.  As you say, they never died again - you can’t kill or injure a human body given incorruptible life by the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit.  Christ Himself (who we are “joint-heirs” with) is an example of this in that He, being raised from the dead, “DIETH NO MORE; death hath no more dominion over Him” (Romans 6:9).  Call it a doctrine of “Once raised, always raised” for the child of God.

You are correct, Phil, that these 144,000 Firstfruits saints did NOT leave the earth with the ascending Christ back in Acts 1, because Paul said in Romans 8:23 that the church still HAD the Firstfruits among them at that time. 

We are told the reason for their staying on earth in their resurrected state in Ephesians 4:8.  These 144,000 Jewish resurrected ones were the “multitude of captives” that a resurrecting Christ brought with Him out of the grave and gave as “gifts” to men.  These “gifts” of resurrected ones were characterized as being apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.  They were given “For the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ” (Eph. 4:12).  Indestructible evangelists and teachers for the early church.

Since these 144,000 FIRSTfruits Matt. 27 saints were part of the “FIRST Resurrection” in AD 33, Revelation 20:5-6 tells us that this “remnant of the dead” who were part of the “First Resurrection” were “blessed and holy”.  They could not be hurt by the “Second Death”, because that Lake of Fire had no power over them.  To be immune to the Lake of Fire meant that these Firstfruits saints would actually be sitting squarely in the middle of it, but would not be affected by it - rather like Daniel’s 3 friends in the fiery furnace. 

Jerusalem in AD 66-70 , especially toward the last, literally turned into that “furnace of fire” described in Matthew 13:42 and Isaiah 31:9.  In Revelation 14:10, we are told that there would be those “tormented with fire and brimstone IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB”.  The word for angels is “messengers”; whether those messengers are human or heavenly agents depends on the context.

I believe that Rev 14:10’s “holy angels” being present in the Lake of Fire in Jerusalem is speaking about some of the “blessed and holy” Matthew 27 resurrected saints whom God used as evangelistic messengers in the city of Jerusalem itself during its very last Old Covenant days from AD 66-70.  God was giving one final opportunity for those trapped in the city to believe on Christ before He returned bodily to the Mount of Olives in AD 70.

Those “holy angels” (some of the Matthew 27 saints) may have been in the very presence of those being tormented in the disintegrating city, but as indestructible saints from the “First Resurrection”, those members of the 144,000 group had God’s seal of protection, and were impervious to any physical or spiritual harm by sword, fire, plague, starvation, or demonic oppression. 

The Matthew 27 saints’ presence in Jerusalem’s Lake of Fire during those days is the reason we have the Rev. 20:9 reference to the “CAMP OF THE SAINTS” that was INSIDE the “beloved city” of Jerusalem, as both were simultaneously surrounded by the Zealot war leader Simon bar Giora.  This man was called “Gog” because he came from Israel, and ended up attacking his fellow Israelites at Jerusalem with the multi-national members of his army.  (Check Numbers 24:7 in the LXX to see Gog identified as Israel.)

At the end of this tormenting period of AD 66-70, those Matthew 27 Firstfruits saints who had been made “ALIVE” and who had REMAINED” ( I Thess. 4:15,17) on the earth for that “little season” (Rev. 6:11), were raptured to heaven along with the other newly-resurrected saints.  This was when Christ fulfilled the Zech. 14:4-5 prophecy of His return by standing on the Mount of Olives and taking all His resurrected saints with Him back to the Father.

These resurrected saints all exited the city to meet the Lord in the air by using the portal of the EASTERN gate of Jerusalem.  This was a gate that had been given great significance in Ezekiel 46:1-3.  Back during the post-exilic days, the Jews had been instructed to “worship at the door of this gate before the Lord in the Sabbaths and the new moons”.  This directive was intended to provide a picture of the location and timing of Christ’s return - a return which occurred while that post-exilic temple structure was still standing. 

Since that temple structure of Zerubbabel exists no more, that means this Zechariah 14:4-5 prophecy of Christ’s second return on the Mount of Olives is fulfilled.  So we needn’t look for the Matthew 27 resurrected saints to still be on earth; they went to their well-deserved heavenly reward back in AD 70.

And that’s “what happened to them” - since you asked, Phil.

Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #18 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 10:02:00 »
LaSpino3 said:Of course The Hebrews who heeded Jesus' warning about fleeing to the mountains in Matthew 24 were saved from God's wrath in the Roman/Jewish war. (Feb AD67-70 August) when the temple would be destroyed. The rest would die or be taken as slaves because they were not believers. "one will be taken, another left"  One dies, one taken as a slave to be sold eventually.
 
LaSpino3, the Hebrews 9:27 means just that.
Hebrews 9:27, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."
The Law had the priest enter the Holy of Holies once a year to atone for sins. Now Jesus atoned for them once and for all.
So, there is no metaphor when Hebrews says, "it is appointed for men to die once, then the judgment."
It is literally saying we don't get reincarnated and come back, but die, and go to heaven ( for believers.)

The rest of that post is irrelevant. As the Father gave life to whom He wills, The Son will also give life to whom He claims.
Ho; would this perhaps be the viewpoint sometimes known as Preterism?

Offline lea

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #19 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 10:14:45 »
3 Resurrections:

Oh gosh, no!

1Cor.15, Study Bible
The Order of Resurrection
…22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him. 24Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power.…

When Jesus ascended, He gave good gifts to men - the apostles and close disciples were given the power to even raise the dead. No mention of those who arose out of their graves.

As i posited before, those who appeared to many of Matt.27 may (if they remained in faith) have been part of the 144k later who were sealed of Israel.

Since He already appeared in the skies over Jerusalem during the time the temple was destroyed,

We read about them in the New Covenant- the New Jerusalem. These were the elect (the 144k) Hebrew Christians that God saved along with the gentile believers in Rev.7.

Matt.27 saints absolutely died again, since the "rapture" or "harpazo" did not happen AND will not happen literally.

Thank you.  ::smile::

P.S. faroukfarouk,

Yes, it's true. It's a Preterist pov.


Offline faroukfarouk

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #20 on: Wed Aug 01, 2018 - 10:18:32 »
3 Resurrections:

Oh gosh, no!

1Cor.15, Study Bible
The Order of Resurrection
…22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him. 24Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power.…

When Jesus ascended, He gave good gifts to men - the apostles and close disciples were given the power to even raise the dead. No mention of those who arose out of their graves.

As i posited before, those who appeared to many of Matt.27 may (if they remained in faith) have been part of the 144k later who were sealed of Israel.

Since He already appeared in the skies over Jerusalem during the time the temple was destroyed,

We read about them in the New Covenant- the New Jerusalem. These were the elect (the 144k) Hebrew Christians that God saved along with the gentile believers in Rev.7.

Matt.27 saints absolutely died again, since the "rapture" or "harpazo" did not happen AND will not happen literally.

Thank you.  ::smile::

P.S. faroukfarouk,

Yes, it's true. It's a Preterist pov.
Okay thanks; I'm not too tied to labels but good to know.

Offline dpr

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #21 on: Fri Aug 03, 2018 - 08:53:36 »
When they came out of their graves, it means they were then resurrected. Nowhere does the Scripture say they continued to live among their brethren. It only declares they appeared to many. Like Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 teaches, when our flesh body dies, our flesh goes back to the earth where it came from, and our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. Our spirit is attached to our soul. Our spirit and soul can be detached from out flesh. This is why in 2 Cor.5 Paul taught that if our earthly house (flesh body) were dissolved, we have a building of God not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

In 1 Peter 3, and 1 Peter 4, Peter showed how Jesus at His resurrection went to the abode of the wicked dead in hell and preached to the 'spirits in prison". That was prophecy that He would do that, leading the prisoners out of the darkness of the heavenly prison per Isaiah 42:7. It's possible those who appeared in Jerusalem may have been some of those "spirits in prison" that Jesus preached The Gospel to, and they believed, and came out.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #22 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 13:08:50 »
dpr  -  Your quote: “When they came out of their graves, it means they were then resurrected.  Nowhere does the scripture say they continued to live among their brethren.” 

Yes, it does.  You need to read the Ephesians 4:8-12 passage carefully, and recognize that the Matt. 27 resurrected saints were the “multitude of captives”, brought from the grave with Christ, and who were given to serve the church as the “gifts” of resurrected saints acting as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.

Romans 8:23 also says point-blank that they
HAD the Firstfruits among them.  This is not talking about the “fruit of the spirit” of love, joy, peace, long suffering, etc.  It’s the Firstfruits Jewish saints as in the Rev. 14:4 Firstfruits who numbered 144,000.

And if you are not opposed to historical documentation, you might want to read Eusebius’ Church History, that mentions Quadratus’ written defense of Christianity to the emperor Hadrian.  He testified that those resurrected and healed by Christ and the apostles REMAINED on earth for an extended time, as proof that Christ and His apostles were not tricksters and deceivers, but performed actual miracles that could be verified.

         

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #23 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 14:12:55 »
lea  -  Doesn’t scripture say that “the GIFT of God is eternal life...”?  It does NOT say that “the LOAN of God is eternal life...”. How could you call it a “good gift” Christ gave to the disciples of raising the dead, if the benefit of that “good gift” of a resurrection could be withdrawn and annulled?

“You do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God” when you say that a resurrection for the saints is a temporary condition, to be forfeited by dying a second time.  “The gifts and calling of God are without repentance”.  He does not withdraw the gift of resurrection for the saints in a sort of double jeopardy. 

You are also ignoring the title given to the 144,000 Rev. 14:4 saints that were redeemed out of the earth.  They are without question called the “Firstfruits”, just as Christ was also called the “Firstfruits” in I Cor 15:20, 23.  They shared the same title, because the Matt. 27 saints shared the same “First Resurrection” event in AD 33. 

The Old Testament type foreshadowing this Matt. 27:52-53 event was the Leviticus 23:10-12 required offering in the temple of the sheaf handful of the Firstfruits of barley harvest.  Along with this sheaf handful of Firstfruits barley, a SINGLE MALE LAMB WITHOUT BLEMISH was included for that Passover week offering.  This represented Christ, our Passover Lamb, raising the Firstfruits of the “harvested” Matt. 27 saints along with Himself, also part of the Firstfruits.

As I mentioned above several times, those Matt 27 saints were the “multitude of captives” - the “gifts” given to the church in Ephesians 4:8-12 that had earlier been some of the “spirits in prison” from 1 Peter 3&4, (a point that dpr made above). 

Lea, you need to review the Psalms 68:18 (LXX) references to the future Matt. 27 saints.  Psalms 68:18 is the original verse duplicated by Ephesians 4:8 about the “multitude of captives” being led by Christ out of the grave on resurrection day.  Psalms 68:6 (LXX) of that chapter also referred to the Matt. 27:52-53 saints. 

“God settles the solitary in a house, leading forth prisoners mightily” (the Matt. 27 “multitude of captives”) “also them that act provokingly” (Israel as the provoking nation found in Ezekiel 2&3) “EVEN THEM THAT DWELL IN TOMBS”.  Do you really think, lea, that after Christ would triumphantly and mightily “lead forth...them that dwell in tombs” on His resurrection day, that He would later abandon them, so that those Matt. 27 saints returned to their graves a second time?  How would that have demonstrated Christ’s power over death?  How could any child of God consider that to be a “comfort” or a “hope”, if their bodily resurrection (or their spiritual resurrection as well) could be undone?

You have raised 1Cor. 15:23 as if it were a contradiction to my points.  It isn’t.  Christ IS the Firstfruits. So are the 144,000 the Firstfruits.  It represents a HARVEST.  Typically a harvest is not composed of a single stalk of grain (i.e.  Christ by Himself).  What makes Christ totally unique among the rest of the Firstfruits harvested with Him is that He was absolutely the FIRST and only one of the Firstfruits harvest to be standing in heaven before God’s face in that glorified, incorruptible human body. 

This earned Him the title of the “First-begotten” - an absolute necessity to prepare the way for all Christ’s siblings to eventually follow Him later to heaven in their own incorruptible, resurrected bodies.  Until Pentecost day in AD 70, those Matt. 27 Firstfruits saints “lived and remained” on the earth, earnestly anticipating their final transport to heaven.  That is why we have the particular ranked order of events as given in 1Cor. 15:23.  “Christ the Firstfruits” (in the “First Resurrection “ of AD 33 with the Matt. 27 saints who remained on earth).  “Afterward, they that are Christ’s at His coming” (in AD 70 with all the other OT saints joining the 144,000 - raised to an incorruptible body, and taken finally to heaven with the returning Christ).

Offline dpr

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #24 on: Sat Aug 04, 2018 - 14:38:57 »
dpr  -  Your quote: “When they came out of their graves, it means they were then resurrected.  Nowhere does the scripture say they continued to live among their brethren.” 

Yes, it does.  You need to read the Ephesians 4:8-12 passage carefully, and recognize that the Matt. 27 resurrected saints were the “multitude of captives”, brought from the grave with Christ, and who were given to serve the church as the “gifts” of resurrected saints acting as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.

There is no Scripture evidence for those who resurrected at Jesus' crucifixion continuing to live on earth thereafter. The Ephesians 4:9-10 verses are parenthetical about Jesus' resurrection, and say nothing about resurrected saints living on earth after Christ's descent into the lower parts of the earth.

Jesus showed in Luke 16 that Paradise exists with a great gulf fixed border, dividing the saved side of His servants from the other side which is the abode of hell. The resurrected saints who appeared in Jerusalem no doubt represent some of those He led out of the pit prison of Isaiah 42:7. They no doubt returned to Paradise, and represent the group of 'asleep' saints Paul said Jesus will bring with Him when He returns (1 Thess.4).


Quote
Romans 8:23 also says point-blank that they
HAD the Firstfruits among them.  This is not talking about the “fruit of the spirit” of love, joy, peace, long suffering, etc.  It’s the Firstfruits Jewish saints as in the Rev. 14:4 Firstfruits who numbered 144,000.

Romans 8 says no such thing as you say:

Rom 8:22-23
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
KJV


Paul was comparing the "creation" seeking release from bondage, in contrast to those in Christ representing the firstfruits of The Holy Spirit and the promised future change at the last trump. It's about those of us still alive in flesh bodies waiting for the redemption of our spirit with the change on the last trump to the "spiritual body" Paul taught in 1 Cor.15. It's not about the asleep saints that have already died and are with Jesus now.


Quote
And if you are not opposed to historical documentation, you might want to read Eusebius’ Church History, that mentions Quadratus’ written defense of Christianity to the emperor Hadrian.  He testified that those resurrected and healed by Christ and the apostles REMAINED on earth for an extended time, as proof that Christ and His apostles were not tricksters and deceivers, but performed actual miracles that could be verified.   

I've ready a lot pseudepigrapha over the years, so I've probably been over that too, but I don't recall any of that kind of idea. (For those not aware, pseudepigrapha writings refer to spurious or pseudo writings attributed to an author in the past).


Offline lecoope

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #25 on: Wed Sep 05, 2018 - 15:15:21 »
If you remember, when John looked into the throne room he saw 24 elders. I am convinced those that Jesus raised when He rose are those very same elders.

Before Christ, the righteous dead went to Abraham's bosom, deep in the earth. But Jesus took all those to heaven.
Today when a believer dies, they go straight to heaven.

Offline Rob

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #26 on: Sat Sep 08, 2018 - 09:02:53 »
I would like you to consider the question asked in the context of the three following verses.

Ecclesiastes 3:20, When we die, it is written, “All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.”

Hebrews 9:27, Concerning all those who have died: “And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the judgment.”

2 Corinthians 5:10, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he has done, whether it be good or bad.”

Here are the verses in question:

Matt.27:52-53, “And the graves (of the dead) were opened; and many (meaning numerous) bodies of the SAINTS which slept (the dead) arose (were brought back to life as was the Lord). And (those who had been dead) came out of the graves and AFTER his (Jesus) resurrection (who was raised from the dead) and (they) went (walked) into the holy city (Jerusalem); and appeared (were witnessed by) many.”

My question, what happened to these saints of God? There are three possibilities,

1.   They died again.

2.   They were taken into heaven with the Lord:

3.   They have remained on the earth, having incorruptible resurrected bodies as did the Lord Jesus, and for the past 2000 years they have been doing the Lord’s work in conjunction with the Holy Spirit.

Think about it before you answer, and if possible use scripture to support your answers.
Laspino3
They were taken with the Lord to heaven. Biblical proof -  he's coming back the same way he left. He's coming back with ten thousands of his saints so he left with ten thousands of his saints.

Jude 14 King James Version (KJV)
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Offline LaSpino3

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Re: What happened to them?
« Reply #27 on: Wed Sep 19, 2018 - 12:32:15 »
DPR, I find your comments rather confusing! Your wrote, speaking of those in Matthew 27:52-53. "Nowhere does the Scripture say they continued to live among their brethren. It only declares they appeared to many."

Phil replies, "Hmmm, nowhere in scripture does it say they died again does it? If it's appointed man to die once and then the resurrection, what are we to say, these saints died again? Then you follow that up with "Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 and write, it, "teaches, when our flesh body dies, our flesh goes back to the earth where it came from, and our spirit goes back to God Who gave it."

Ecclesiastes was written 900 years before Christ died and was raised from the grave, and that includes those in Matthew 27. You're mixing beans with apples. What did Solomon know about the resurrection of the Lord Jesus and the saints? NOTHING! What did he know about our old bodies raised, becoming new, immortal and incorruptable, Nothing! So how could he write about it? He couldn't!

You wrote, "Our spirit is attached to our soul. Our spirit and soul can be detached from out flesh." OK, now what?  You write, "This is why in 2 Cor.5 Paul taught that if our earthly house (flesh body) were dissolved, we have a building of God not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Phil replies, "Huh!" What are you talking about?

Dissolved is a mild way for speaking of dying or death. "We have" (is present tense) "a building of (from) God." Paul is comparing this old, fleshly body to the permanent immortal, incorruptable body we will be given. It's the old body, raised, and made new. Like the old tempory tabernacle in the wilderness compared to Solomon's Temple or the one in heaven.

Last comment, when the Lord died, and "AFTER" his resurrection these O.T. saints in Matthew 27 were raised from the grave, it was then they had "swallowed death up in victory." No way these saints raised AFTER Christ was raised were to ever die again. Lazarus was only an example to the Jews of the coming resurrection, and because Jesus had to be the first of the first-fruits, Lazarus had to die again. These in Matthew 27 were the first fruit, the wave offering unto Christ himself, as Jesus was the first fruit or first offering to the Father in heaven. The 144,000 spoken of in Revelation 14 are said to be "the first fruits unto God (the Father) and to the Lamb." There's only one first fruit unto Christ, therefore it has to be the saints who were raised in Matthew27. any others would fall under the 2ed resurrection found in 1 Corinthians 15, and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. The first resurrection has two parts, a. found in Matthew, and b. found in Corinthians and Thessalonians. The last resurrection, the unsaved are found in Revelation 20. Thus, 1 Corinthians 15:23, "Every man in his own order."  "Order" is a military term meaning in their own rank or file.

Laspino
« Last Edit: Wed Sep 19, 2018 - 12:35:11 by LaSpino3 »