Author Topic: What is the time period when the end comes? A new Heaven and a Earth  (Read 1412 times)

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Offline TheWordIsOne

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Two judgments already began at the house; the Holy Spirit is at work in its final stages
1 Peter 4:17 For the time has come and now judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begins at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

The congregation
Matthew 13:28-29 He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, 'Do you want us then to go and gather them up?'
But he said, 'No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.

The falling away is now

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached and then the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

The Gospel
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The Ant-Christ is at work right now 6,0000 years
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

It begins from the East 
Matthew 24:21-22 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, those days will be shortened.

Third final Judgment, maybe months away, sinner that go into perdition
2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

The end of all former things-months away
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

The future the old ends a new beginning
Isaiah 65:17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, And the former things shall not be remembered or come to mind.

The New Jerusalem
Matthew 5:3-12 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

How is all this? Six Thousand years pass the Antichrist little horn 5,997 years he rushes at the end of the age of man, then new humanity

Offline lea

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   Defining Heaven and Earth

     Sadly many Bible students are unfamiliar with the apocalyptic, and figurative language of the Bible. So many people like to say "The Bible says what it means and means what it says". They seem to be saying there is no such thing as figurative or spiritual language. This is sad because a LOT of the Bible is symbolic language. The term heaven and earth is a good example. [We are not saying the term heaven and earth never refers to material creation; we ARE saying this term is very often used figuratively].

     Remember, Jesus was a Jew. As such he was raised hearing the Old Testament prophets taught in the synagogues. These prophets utilized spiritual language. As the prophet of and to Israel, Matthew 15, Jesus was not only familiar with the language of the prophets, he used the same language. How did the prophets use the term heaven and earth?

     The prophet Isaiah predicted the passing of heaven and earth in chapter 24. He said the earth would be utterly broken down, clean dissolved, and completely removed, vs. 19. Now this sounds like the destruction of material creation but closer examination reveals it to be speaking of the destruction of Israel's Covenant World under the imagery of "heaven and earth". Note verse 5 gives the reason for the destruction--"they have broken the everlasting covenant". What covenant was that? It was the Mosaic Covenant! God was going to destroy "heaven and earth" because Israel had broken her covenant with Jehovah! Are we to believe that one day the universe will be destroyed because Israel broke her covenant?

     A dilemma is created for the literal interpretation of the text when we come to verse 22. In these verses God is depicted as dwelling gloriously in Mount Zion, that is, in Jerusalem, after the destruction of heaven and earth. Reader, if the earth has been destroyed how could literal Mount Zion still exist? We believe the best explanation is to see Isaiah predicting the destruction of Israel's COVENANT heaven and earth because she had violated the Mosaic Covenant with Jehovah. As a result God's righteousness would remain in a New Zion--in a new COVENANT heaven and earth.

     Another example of "heaven and earth" being referent to the Covenant World of Israel and not literal creation is Isaiah 51:16.
https://www.preteristarchive.com/Hyper/0000_preston_heaven-passed.html

Offline robycop3

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  No, God said, near the end of Revelation, "Behold, I make ALL THINGS NEW !'

Offline lea

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  No, God said, near the end of Revelation, "Behold, I make ALL THINGS NEW !'
  All you can answer with is "no?!" And you don't even realize what "Behold, I make all things new" means?!
All things new in the verse in Revelation - first, was to occur "soon." So your knowledge of scripture falls flat on its face if you think God didn't get it right about creation the first time!

All things new refers to the regeneration (Matt.19:28) and the restitution of all things Acts 3:20-21)

This is primarily directed at the Old covenant people, it still affords all that believed in Him to be a NEW CREATION in Christ: the deliverance of the creature from the bondage of corruption unto the glorious liberty of the sons of God at the redemption and adoption of the church's collective body. (Romans 8:19-23) emph mine.
The next vs. in Rev 21, vs 6, continues on to say :"and he said to me, It is done. I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.................. emph mine.

Covenant change happened. 

Praise God!




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Offline TheWordIsOne

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Greeting
That's a lot to eat, but I like your understanding- I know this? laws are giving to show us who is Lord, the understanding' we have books like NAG Hammadi scriptures, the Dead Sea Scrolls that compare with word of God, the Bible is one of many yes

I know this as long the children of Israel are in the world they shall never Perish, never the world, those who survive the tribulation at end of age man history a thousand years the people well be reform, and after the thousand years all well pass away new heaven and the earth will be transformed, the Lord does not destroy darkness He dispels the darkness, the  Lord destroy the works of Satan 
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 15:41:50 by TheWordIsOne »

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Offline lea

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Greeting
I know this as long the children of Israel are in the world they shall never Perish, never the world, those who survive the tribulation at end of age man history a thousand years the people well be reform, and after the thousand years all well pass away new heaven and the earth will be transformed, the Lord does not destroy darkness He dispels the darkness, the  Lord destroy the works of Satan

Greetings back  ::tippinghat::
To "think so" is not the same as to "know." I have nothing against modern Israel personally and definitely politically, but they are a secular nation of lost people. They may have some rabbinic Judaism floating around but that was only brought about after AD70. You should read some of mockings they still say about Jesus, it's disgusting, and I do not care about the fate of unbelievers there. It's one thing to ignore Christianity as other unsaved religions do- yet it is a crime in my opinion to mock Jesus as some Jews do even in public.

Biblical Israel however, was different. The Jews that rejected Jesus did not survive the great tribulation except for some who were taken for slaves. The "true Israel of God" were Jew and gentile in CHRIST.
Our Bible closes with this "new covenant." This "age to come" that Jesus spoke of was the church age- and we know His kingdom NEVER ends. The kingdom was "at hand" during Jesus' ministry. It came in AD 70 when the Old covenant age passed away.  ::smile::


The Bible also NEVER speak of the end of the world, but the end of the "age."  The old covenant age is when there old heaven and earth was made obsolete and passed away.

This physical earth will only grow old


Offline 3 Resurrections

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When scripture says that “Behold I make ALL THINGS new” in Rev. 21:5, this prophecy is encompassed within Revelation’s own time limits of what was “AT HAND” for John’s readers, to be fulfilled in THEIR DAYS (Rev.1:3 and 22:10).

It is the same “ALL THINGS” that Peter talked about in I Peter 4:7.  “But the end of ALL THINGS is AT HAND: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.” 

And again - I repeat it - God defines for us what He means by an “AT HAND” prophecy in Ezekiel 12:21-28; it means the prophecy will not be “prolonged” into “times that are far off”, but will be fulfilled “in YOUR DAYS” for the ones who are originally receiving that “at hand” prophecy.  Meaning that in the days when the apostle PETER was writing, the “end of all things” took place, and were “made new”.   Long ago, the left-over elements from the old heaven and old earth were eliminated to make way for the New Heaven and New Earth back then at the close of the Old Covenant Age in AD 70.

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Long ago, the left-over elements from the old heaven and old earth were eliminated to make way for the New Heaven and New Earth back then at the close of the Old Covenant Age in AD 70.
There is nothing in Scripture, history or science that would lead anyone to make such a ridiculous assertion.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Hi 4WD,

And a happy and prosperous New Year to you and yours...

You aren’t giving enough thought to this point.  The only reason why this conclusion seems ridiculous to you is that you are presuming (as I also once thought) that the “New Heavens and New Earth” that Isaiah 65 prophesied about is the culmination point of all human history before eternity begins. 

It’s not.

This point has been addressed before at length in the post someone called “Why will people die in the New Heavens and New Earth?”  There are several conditions Isaiah lays out for the reality of the New Heavens and New Earth existence that could NOT POSSIBLY be taking place in eternity for the saints. 

#1)  The BIRTH OF OFFSPRING in Isaiah 65:23.  Are you prepared to say that God intends this planet to be populated by nothing but bastards born out of wedlock in eternity (since there is “no marrying or giving in marriage” in the resurrection)?  These “offspring” and the “seed” born to the saints in Isaiah 65:23 have to be ones being born as we speak to those inhabiting the New Covenant Age of the New Jerusalem in the current reality of the New Heavens and New Earth.

#2)  The DEATH OF GOD’S PEOPLE at 100 years old in Isaiah 65:20.  This is an impossibility for a righteous, resurrected individual in eternity to die again.  “It is appointed unto men ONCE to die...”.   So this NHNE has to be talking of a condition for the saints BEFORE eternity begins for them.

#3)  The EXISTENCE OF CURSED SINNERS living to 100 years of age in Isaiah 65:20.  At the culmination of human history for this age, there will be no longer the presence of sinners on this planet, as Psalms 68:2 indicates.  “...so let the wicked PERISH at the presence of God...”.  Evil humanity will not always exist.  God is long-suffering, but does not intend to PERPETUALLY suffer the existence of the rebellious wicked in His universe, even in a separate tormented state of an assumed “Hell”.

#4)  The saints OFFERING PRAYERS TO GOD in Isaiah 65:24.  Why would prayers even need to be spoken, and why would God’s people even need to call upon Him if they are in His very presence, face to face for all eternity?  They would have need of nothing at that point, and no need to request anything of Him, so Isaiah’s NHNE has to be describing the current state of existence BEFORE eternity begins for the saints.

I am not making up this AD 70 date out of thin air for the transition from the elements of the Old Covenant Age over to the New Covenant Age.  The book of Hebrews is introduced as the time of “these last days”.  Then Hebrews 12:26 (written around AD 64) said that God had promised that He was “*NOW*“ going to shake - not only the earth - but the heavens also.  Once this “shaking” process had “removed” the things which were “made” (like the Jerusalem Temple), then whatever survived that shaking process would “remain”.   Hebrews says that the kingdom they had already received (the kingdom of God’s New Covenant in His blood) would be something that “CANNOT BE MOVED” by that soon-coming shaking process. 

Hebrews 8:13 also spoke of the soon-coming transition from the Old Covenant Age to the New Covenant Age.  “In that He saith A new covenant, he hath made the first old.  *NOW* that which decayeth and waxeth old is READY TO VANISH AWAY.”  Remember, this was written in what Hebrews called “these last days”, written around AD 64, when the “weak and beggarly elements” of that Old Covenant were already dead and decaying, and were about to vanish by being physically burned up.  You would have to be deliberately obtuse to miss the significance of this.




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You aren’t giving enough thought to this point. 
I have given the point far more thought than it deserves already with my comment.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: What is the time period when the end comes? A new Heaven and a Earth
« Reply #10 on: Wed Jan 01, 2020 - 11:32:14 »
Just another horse led to water that won’t drink...

It’s not my job to convince you, that’s the Spirit’s work to use God’s words to do the job.  And if you aren’t willing to consider these texts that are quite plain, then the next person reading them might be willing.  “Let every man be persuaded in his own mind...”

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Re: What is the time period when the end comes? A new Heaven and a Earth
« Reply #11 on: Wed Jan 01, 2020 - 12:04:39 »
Just another horse led to water that won’t drink...
Your water tank is empty; or perhaps more accurately, it is filled with bad water.

Offline lea

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Re: What is the time period when the end comes? A new Heaven and a Earth
« Reply #12 on: Wed Jan 01, 2020 - 12:27:25 »
Your water tank is empty; or perhaps more accurately, it is filled with bad water.
OR....like some others, you may just need another BAPTISM to help lead you to finding the TRUTH in scripture... ::payattentiontome::

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Re: What is the time period when the end comes? A new Heaven and a Earth
« Reply #13 on: Thu Jan 02, 2020 - 06:32:31 »
OR....like some others, you may just need another BAPTISM to help lead you to finding the TRUTH in scripture... ::payattentiontome::
interestingly, you have the roles of baptism and truth backward.  Baptism doesn't lead to truth; rather truth leads to baptism.  That, of course, is a bit simplistic, but fundamentally true.

Offline lea

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Re: What is the time period when the end comes? A new Heaven and a Earth
« Reply #14 on: Fri Jan 03, 2020 - 12:33:49 »
interestingly, you have the roles of baptism and truth backward.  Baptism doesn't lead to truth; rather truth leads to baptism.  That, of course, is a bit simplistic, but fundamentally true.
I think it is both. Another, or even a single baptism can awaken the Holy Spirit within a believer, (which was before sleeping) and lead them to truth.


Offline Choir Loft

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Re: What is the time period when the end comes? A new Heaven and a Earth
« Reply #15 on: Thu Jan 16, 2020 - 08:30:51 »
Greetings back  ::tippinghat::
To "think so" is not the same as to "know." I have nothing against modern Israel personally and definitely politically, but they are a secular nation of lost people. They may have some rabbinic Judaism floating around but that was only brought about after AD70. You should read some of mockings they still say about Jesus, it's disgusting, and I do not care about the fate of unbelievers there. It's one thing to ignore Christianity as other unsaved religions do- yet it is a crime in my opinion to mock Jesus as some Jews do even in public.

Biblical Israel however, was different. The Jews that rejected Jesus did not survive the great tribulation except for some who were taken for slaves. The "true Israel of God" were Jew and gentile in CHRIST.
Our Bible closes with this "new covenant." This "age to come" that Jesus spoke of was the church age- and we know His kingdom NEVER ends. The kingdom was "at hand" during Jesus' ministry. It came in AD 70 when the Old covenant age passed away.  ::smile::


The Bible also NEVER speak of the end of the world, but the end of the "age."  The old covenant age is when there old heaven and earth was made obsolete and passed away.

This physical earth will only grow old

Your attitude is anti-semitic.  It's typical vomitus of Jew hating Biblically illiterate American protestants.

Start with reading Ezekiel chapter 37.   

In this chapter GOD promises to restore Israel and to place it upon the land (Eretz Israel) that He promised to Abraham.   God also promises to reunite all 12 tribes of ancient Israel.  The current restoration is officially recognized as of May 1948.  It is the THIRD TIME God has placed His people Israel on that land.   No gentile venom will change its importance in God's eyes or the proof of fulfilled prophecy from the Holy Bible. 

Even the Muslim holy book the Qur'an states that the land belongs to the Jews. (*)  The Qur'an even predicts that "losers" will try to take it from them.

The modern State of Israel has a republic form of government, but is entirely Jewish in its culture.  It is as Jewish as ever it was in ancient times when its government  was a Theocracy.  The form of government isn't a factor.  The fact that the Jewish people have been brought to live on their ancestral land BY GOD is indeed important.   Anti-semitic Jew haters continue to deny these facts so as to justify their arrogance against God's people.   

Jew hating Americans have no business pointing out social and religious failures of Israel any more than an Israeli would be justified in pointing out American failures (of which there are many).

Your concept of Biblical covenant is flawed.   

What's the difference between OLD and NEW Covenant according to the Bible?   The difference is THE LAW of Israel and how it's applied.   

American protestants HATE JEWISH LAW and refuse to acknowledge God's purpose in it.   The most popular myth adopted by American anti-semites is that the LAW has been destroyed or abolished.  The slogan they quote is demonic in nature, "we are saved by grace not by law."   It's not Biblical because salvation begins and ends with the LAW.   

THE LAW STILL STANDS.

"I did not come to abolish the law.  I came to fulfill it." - Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17

Jews rejected Jesus because they assumed He intended to abolish the LAW, which He did not.   Christians teach themselves they are saved by lawLESS grace so as to allow their pet SIN to continue.   Jews reject Christ who fulfilled their LAW while gentiles reject the LAW so as to obtain an excuse to continue in sin. (1 Peter 4:17)

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

There is a difference between LAW and legalism.   Christians, who do not want to be encumbered by restrictions against sin, deny the LAW claiming its legalistic.   Instead they submit to their own legalistic rules and assume these rules will please God instead of the LAW God has given us.

What LAW did Jesus fulfill?  Do you know?   (Hint: Read the book of Hebrews)

The OLD LAW/COVENANT required the sacrifice of animals for sin.  This was a temporary and imperfect way of removing sin because animals are mortal.  Therefore animal sacrifices had to be performed constantly and continually because of their mortality. 

The NEW LAW/COVENANT substitutes the blood of Christ for animals.  Jesus' blood is perfect because Jesus is immortal.  Because His sacrifice was of immortal life the sacrifice doesn't need to be performed again and again.  Thus Paul writes that Jesus' sacrifice makes the LAW perfect.  The Old Law, of animal sacrifice, is obsolete Paul writes.

No one can be saved apart from the LAW because the purpose of the LAW is to convict us of sin.  There can be no repentance without it. 

Once saved, the LAW directs us to humbly approach God with our sacrifice for sin.   Yesterday the sacrifice was animals.  Today its the blood of Jesus.  Thus the sacrifice is perfect and complete because it fulfills THE LAW.   The LAW says we must come personally to God.  No priest can do it for us - no TV evangelist.

Once forgiven, the gift of the Holy Spirit is granted BY GRACE so as to enable us to live lives pleasing to God ACCORDING TO THE LAW.  We cannot do this ourselves, but need the Holy Spirit to help us.  (Read the book of Romans)   

We are saved FOR good works, not BY them.  (Read the book of James)   

The Holy Spirit falls upon us to enable GRACE, not to make a circus act out of Sunday worship services and not to justify putting our hands upon any filthy thing we choose.

Christians celebrate Pentacost when God gave the Holy Spirit and enabled GRACE.
Jews celebrate Shavuot when God gave the LAW to Moses.
BOTH Shavuot and Pentacost fall on the SAME DAY, thus certifying BY GOD that GRACE and LAW go together in the New Covenant.


Stop condemning Jews and crucify yourself unto God as a living sacrifice which is your duty before God.  (Romans 12:1)

Finally it should be a reminder to the reader that the church has historically been the greatest persecutor and murderer of Jews throughout history.   No other group can claim this dishonor.   Clean out the inside of your own bloody cup O Christian before you concoct more hateful lies against Israel.   Remember God's promise to Abraham in Genesis 12:3.

"I will bless those who bless you O Isreal, and whoever curses you I will curse.   In you will I bless all the people of the world."

Thanks be to God who has given us His Torah (LAW) and GRACE.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft.....

(*)
And We made the people who were deemed weak to inherit the eastern lands and the western ones which We had blessed; and the good word of your Lord was fulfilled in the children of Israel because they bore up (sufferings) patiently; and We utterly destroyed what Firon (pharaoh) and his people had wrought and what they built.  - Qur’an 7.137

And when Musa (Moses) said to his people: O my people! remember the favor of Allah upon you when He raised prophets among you and made you kings and gave you what He had not given to any other among the nations. O my people! enter the holy land which Allah has prescribed for you and turn not on your backs for then you will turn back losers.  - Our’an 5.20-21

And We said to the Israelites after him: Dwell in the land: and when the promise of the next life shall come to pass, we will bring you both together in judgment.
- Qur’an 17.104

And.surely they purposed to unsettle you from the land that they might expel you from it, and in that case they will not tarry behind you but a little. - Qur’an 17.76 (prophecy of attempts to remove Jews from Palestine)




 
« Last Edit: Thu Jan 16, 2020 - 08:57:17 by Choir Loft »

Offline lea

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Re: What is the time period when the end comes? A new Heaven and a Earth
« Reply #16 on: Thu Jan 16, 2020 - 22:51:46 »
OK Choir Loft,

Who are you to call Someone's child antisemitic?!
You need to get off the lawn with your assertions.
Your future/whatever nonsense puts Israel in jeopardy again and to have another holocaust. Jerk.
All that when you can't even see or understand that God is done with the Jews today!
They are just like any other non Christian nation in need of a Savior.  GET IT?

Biblical Judaism ended in AD70 when the faithful Jews and Gentiles became Christians.

Jesus broke down the wall of partition. The wolf and lamb lie together. You like poetry, right?

Rabbinic Judaism today has nothing to do with the Judaism in the Bible or any of its prophecies!

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Re: What is the time period when the end comes? A new Heaven and a Earth
« Reply #17 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 04:32:46 »
I think it is both. Another, or even a single baptism can awaken the Holy Spirit within a believer, (which was before sleeping) and lead them to truth.
Where in all of Scripture do you read about a "sleeping" believer?  What is a "sleeping" believer?  Awaken the Holy Spirit??  Was it the Holy Spirit that was sleeping?  Strange.

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Re: What is the time period when the end comes? A new Heaven and a Earth
« Reply #18 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 04:34:44 »
Biblical Judaism ended in AD70 when the faithful Jews and Gentiles became Christians.
What were they before AD70?

Offline lea

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Re: What is the time period when the end comes? A new Heaven and a Earth
« Reply #19 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 12:06:20 »
Where in all of Scripture do you read about a "sleeping" believer?  What is a "sleeping" believer?  Awaken the Holy Spirit??  Was it the Holy Spirit that was sleeping?  Strange.
The "sleeping" was more of an expression. The Holy Spirit helps our inner man to develop and understand spiritual things. Most of the answers I read here do not reflect the deeper knowledge of spiritual understanding. They answer in the flesh. ie: physical return of Jesus. They are blind in seeing that Revelation is a book of prophecy. Christ was the spirit of prophecy. It can only be discerned as other prophets' books. The spiritual leads to understanding the rest, the physical (location, people,etc.)

Offline lea

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Re: What is the time period when the end comes? A new Heaven and a Earth
« Reply #20 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 12:17:26 »
 The circumcised Jews of the flesh only were still God's chosen people until they had their Messiah crucified. Then only the remnant of Israel were saved in the great tribulation. And anyone who was written in the book of life from all time back were saved and went from hades paradise to heaven.

 The Gentile Christians were heathen until Jesus came and they confessed Christ.
« Last Edit: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 12:19:39 by lea »

Offline seekingHiswisdom

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Re: What is the time period when the end comes? A new Heaven and a Earth
« Reply #21 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 14:18:46 »
It's typical vomitus of Jew hating Biblically illiterate American protestants.
 

Idiot

American? protestants... or protestants in general? Either way, you haven't a clue. of most things you say.

Reporting myself so no one else has to ::tippinghat::

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Re: What is the time period when the end comes? A new Heaven and a Earth
« Reply #22 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 14:46:53 »
Most of the answers I read here do not reflect the deeper knowledge of spiritual understanding.
That seems to me to definitely describe most of what you post here.  The Preterist view is such a distortion of biblical eschatology that it perverts even the basic soteriology of the Bible.

Offline lea

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Re: What is the time period when the end comes? A new Heaven and a Earth
« Reply #23 on: Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 18:10:22 »
That seems to me to definitely describe most of what you post here.  The Preterist view is such a distortion of biblical eschatology that it perverts even the basic soteriology of the Bible.

Basic soteriology? Perverted?  that's too bad for you if you think preterism affects our salvation.

Your wrong of course.  How in the world does preterism, even futurism affect your salvation? Da da dum... It doesn't.

Now with eschatology, you don't accept full preterism, so obviously you are going to label it a distorted viewpoint. See, I have read all the futurists explanations, where you have probably NEVER read any books on preterism!

In the O.P. of this thread it asks when the "end" comes and new heaven and earth.

"End time and last things" is eschatology.  Preterism is way beyond your traditional scope here.

The "end of all things" according to Peter (not you) was at hand. It was the end of the old covenant of obedience to the Law given at Sinai. The new covenant (new heaven and earth ) made the old obsolete according to Paul.
Also, the new "Jerusalem" is Jew and Gentile in Christ. Gentile Christians inherit the same blessings as Israel. The TRUE Israel!
AD70 speaks to the destruction of the temple - Israel's heaven and earth.

There was also a change in the Law (Hebrews)

And Jesus claimed in
Matthew 5:17-18 (KJV)

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


Rev.21 and Isa. 25:8 reflect the same language for Israel. 8He will swallow up death forever;

the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces,

and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth,

for the Lord has spoken.




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Re: What is the time period when the end comes? A new Heaven and a Earth
« Reply #24 on: Sat Jan 18, 2020 - 04:58:36 »
Basic soteriology? Perverted?  that's too bad for you if you think preterism affects our salvation.

Your wrong of course.  How in the world does preterism, even futurism affect your salvation? Da da dum... It doesn't.
Soteriology is more than just Jesus Christ being sacrificed.  Also soteriology is not salvation per se; rather soteriology is the doctrine, the teaching, about salvation through Jesus Christ.  And some of that teaching about Jesus Christ is about where He is now, what He is doing, and what He will do. Preterism distorts the some of the basic biblical teachings about Jesus Christ; and as such distorts soteriology.
Quote from: lea
Now with eschatology, you don't accept full preterism, so obviously you are going to label it a distorted viewpoint. See, I have read all the futurists explanations, where you have probably NEVER read any books on preterism!
I sat through an entire class for many weeks on the teaching of preterism.  In the end, it is all based upon the conjecture of the events surrounding AD70; with all the biblical eschatological aspects interpreted to align with that basis.  A fundamental problem is that there is absolutely no evidence of the preterism view of the events of AD70, biblically or otherwise.
Quote from: lea
Preterism is way beyond your traditional scope here.
You don't know what my traditional scope is.

Offline Choir Loft

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Re: What is the time period when the end comes? A new Heaven and a Earth
« Reply #25 on: Sat Jan 18, 2020 - 09:56:35 »
OK Choir Loft,

Who are you to call Someone's child antisemitic?!
You need to get off the lawn with your assertions.
Your future/whatever nonsense puts Israel in jeopardy again and to have another holocaust. Jerk.
All that when you can't even see or understand that God is done with the Jews today!
They are just like any other non Christian nation in need of a Savior.  GET IT?

Biblical Judaism ended in AD70 when the faithful Jews and Gentiles became Christians.

Jesus broke down the wall of partition. The wolf and lamb lie together. You like poetry, right?

Rabbinic Judaism today has nothing to do with the Judaism in the Bible or any of its prophecies!

Antagonism toward Jews is an official definition of anti-semitism.    Google it.

The posts I responded to, including your own, are full of false statements innuendo and suppositions which are totally false and derogatory with regard to Jews and Biblical principles.  They are supportive of the ancient doctrine of Supersessionism/Replacement Theology and is completely demonstrative of Biblical ignorance and illiteracy.  In case you didn't know, Replacement Theology was used from the earliest days of the church to justify prejudicial attitudes and actions toward Jews.   Taken to its extreme it resulted in more persecution of Jews by the church than any other group that opposed them.  It continues to this day among American protestants who ought to know better, but prefer to justify their hatred of Jews.         

Biblical Judaism did NOT end in AD70 as history has proven.   God has established the Hebrew people on their own land once again.   Consult any global map. 

Deuteronomy 31 quotes GOD as promising the Hebrews, "I will never leave you or forsake you."   Either God is a liar or you are deliberately skewing the truth to support your own Jew hating agenda.

God's work with Israel is an ongoing process and entirely in line with His plan of redemption for all of mankind.   Read the book of Hebrews.

Israel is NOT like any other nation.   

Israel was and is the oracle of God and ought to be respected as holding that office.   

In the days of the Kings of Israel the prophets of God arose in Israel.  They spoke and wrote God's Word.   Today Israel continues to demonstrate God's will to the people of the world.   The teaching form God uses today is a series of Object Lessons.  (Google 'object lesson' if you don't understand my meaning.)  God used Object Lessons to teach truth about Himself all through the Old Testament.  Have you ever read the Old Testament (the Tanakh as Jews call it)?

The only similarity Israel shares with the family of nations today is their adoption of a Republic as a form of government.  In Biblical times, Israel was a Theocracy.   Do you know the difference.   Consult a local elementary school teacher if you don't.  All other aspects of Israeli culture are the same as what you refer to as Biblical Israel - including but not restricted to a class known as the pharisees. 

Either you are unaware of these truths or you have deliberately chosen to ignore them.  (def: Truth is that which is consistent with what is.)  That which IS today IS the State of Israel.  Using religious slogans and buzz words along with scripture taken out of context does not suffice to glean truth from reality.  However, it is a common device used to justify racial prejudice.

"I will bless those who bless you and I will curse those who curse you and in you will all the people of the earth be blessed." - GOD quoted in Genesis 12:3

In all this is GOD lying?   He is not.

You seem to be very confused about the God of Israel, salvation, and your own mistaken attitude about who and what Jews really are.

You quote Ephesians concerning Christ breaking down the Wall of Partition, but do you know what that quote means?   It isn't talking about relationships between Jews and gentiles or between Lions and Lambs.  It's about the relationship between God and man.  It's about the structure of heaven and how one achieves forgiveness before God.   Read the book of 1 Kings chapter 6.  Even better read Exodus and Leviticus.  Your poetic license leaves something to be desired.

Although I adjure you to study (to show yourself approved and not a fool) the Bible as well as historic accounts of the Jewish people from 70 AD until June 1967, I am certain you will not.   Comfortable in your own false dogma you will continue to represent your particular form of spiritual superiority over Jews and everyone else who doesn't agree with your aberrations of doctrine. 

What significant event happened in June 1967?   Do you know? 

That particular event was predicted by Jesus and quoted in Luke 21:24. It certifies THE END of the church as a worldly institution in the eyes of God.  It pretty much blows your assumptions about Replacement Theology into atoms.

You really shouldn't throw stones when you live in a glass house.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....
« Last Edit: Sat Jan 18, 2020 - 11:00:24 by Choir Loft »

Offline Choir Loft

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Re: What is the time period when the end comes? A new Heaven and a Earth
« Reply #26 on: Sat Jan 18, 2020 - 10:27:19 »
Idiot

American? protestants... or protestants in general? Either way, you haven't a clue. of most things you say.

Reporting myself so no one else has to ::tippinghat::

I pity you.   You are confident in your own ignorance and are totally unable to contradict my post with anything other than insults.   You have proven my point about illiterate Americans in general and Protestants in particular.   
Thank you for doing that.

American protestants are Biblically illiterate. 
- Most don't know the basic difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament.   
- Most don't know why it was necessary for Jesus to die upon the cross (or why forgiveness isn't granted to everyone).   
- Most don't know how LAW and GRACE combine to enable redemption.   
- Most are hung up on false dogma and are deliberately unaware of Biblical foundations.
- Most Protestants don't even attend church on a regular basis. (*)

Instead of arguing my assertions, you have stated I'm wrong.   

If I'm wrong PROVE IT.   

Quote chapter and verse from the Bible or quote history.

There's a reason the Bible encourages us to "study to show yourselves approved". (2 Tim 2:15)

Most Protestants DON'T study and prove themselves fools.   Look to your own church.   How many cars are in the parking lot at Bible study times compared to regular worship?   How many adult members attend Bible study offered by their pastor as compared to regular worship?   Most don't because they are content in their ignorance.

Stupidity is not a virtue.

Please try to read my posts and learn something.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

(*) According to PEW and GALLUP polls (statistical analysis vetted and recognized as valid) American attendance (defined as one visit per month) has fallen drastically.   Attendance in 2010 was 50% of 1948 levels.   Projections of the current rate of decline will result in attendance levels falling to 10% by 2050.  These numbers are not indicative of people who know what they're doing - or even care about it.
« Last Edit: Sat Jan 18, 2020 - 10:41:37 by Choir Loft »

Offline seekingHiswisdom

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Re: What is the time period when the end comes? A new Heaven and a Earth
« Reply #27 on: Sat Jan 18, 2020 - 13:02:54 »
@lea

You are a committed Preterist.

As I understand your beliefs you deny the future prophetic quality of the book of Revelation.

You believe essentially that all the end-times prophecies of the New Testament were fulfilled in AD 70 when the Romans attacked and destroyed Jerusalem.

You also believe  that every event normally associated with the end times—Christ’s second coming, the tribulation, the resurrection of the dead, the final judgment—has already happened except the final judgment,  still being in the process of being fulfilled.

And you believe  Jesus’ having returned to earth was a “spiritual” return, not a physical one.

One of the reasons you believe this is After Jesus describes some of the end-times happenings, He says, in Mathew 24:34 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened” and you believe this to mean that everything Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24 had to have occurred within one generation of His speaking

Without debating which one of us does a more “spiritual” study of things I can tell you it is my belief that when Jesus spoke of “this generation” that He was most likely referring  from Adam to the last man standing… if I can use a borrowed phrase.

From my personal studies mankind, as a whole, having been created with a purpose for the fulfillment of God’s plan and prophesy, and as the only creation....... we have personal knowledge of  and collectively could well have been counted as the “singular” generation of creation.

After all… many will tell you a generation is 47 years. Some 63 years.... even 100.

I like this answer:

How long is a generation, you ask?

Short Answer: 25 years, but a generation ago it was 20 years.

Long answer: It depends on what you mean by generation.

http://gregladen.com/blog/2017/10/08/how-long-is-a-human-generation/

It is all over the board and tying , or trying to tie it to point to 70 AD You need to back track each and every generation suggestion and see from where that count started, and then see when and what happened in that time span. In any event I am not going to get into generations with you.

Please read Mathew 24 in its entirety (posted) from the NKJV.

I have made a few notations by way ocf comments and questions throughout, in blue.

Matthew 24 New King James Version (NKJV)

Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple

24 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
       
     QUESTION: The deciples came to Jesus on the Mount of Olives and asked Him “Tell us, when will these things be? And
     what will be
     the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?
     Can you explain how they would have known how and what to ask him if they had not already been told this from Him or someone?
     If this were not so , would Jesus have said they were misunderstanding or told wrong.


4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for [a]all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

    Comment: It was Jesus who said  "but the end is not yet.

7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
   
      Comment: beginning.... NOT the end

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

      Question: Where in the bible do they say the apostles were killed in a tribulation? OR where can I read about the killing
     of them?


10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
   
      Comment: Back around 70 AD this had not happened and it has only been possible within the past couple hundred years.

The Great Tribulation

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.
   
      Question: Help me out here, please. When did this flight happen? Could not be Sodom and Gomorrah cause that was
      earlier and Jesus is talking future. Why was it not recorded
?
   
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
   
      Question: Jesus is talking about a future tribulation... but for when?

 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

      Question: Does not tell us when but does say the days would be shortened. Why is that not  recorded if it happened already?

3 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
 
       Question: AS this also is not recorded anywhere in anyone's Holy Bible....could it have happened? Or did Jesus lie if all happened
       by 70AD? Wait... I know.(tongue in cheek jesting)  It was not 70AD it was 1917 AD in Fatima Portugal when the sun stood still and
       danced across the sky to those 3 children. They just got it wrong... Must have been Jesus but they though it was Mary instead?

The Coming of the Son of Man

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
    Comment: So Jesus said.
    Question: When did this happen?

   
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
   
     Question: Who say this? Why is it not recorded by whoever saw  it

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
   
 NOTE: It is not until now that Jesus speaks of a parable.

The Parable of the Fig Tree... But a very inportant parable it is.

2 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that [e]it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

No One Knows the Day or Hour
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of [f]heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

     Comment: Jesus will come in the future from when he was talking to his disciples.

38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
   
    Question: Was this event recorded? Where?

41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
   
      Question: Or this?

42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what [g]hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what [h]hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
   
      Question: Are you watching? I guess not for you believe all prophecy has already happened as did this BUT IT WAS NOT counted worthy enough to record!!!!!  ?

The Faithful Servant and the Evil Servant

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying [j] his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Without my comments look at two prophecies that had to happen.

Israel plays a huge roll in that and that was not fulfilled until 1948.

 The return of Israel

Matthew 24:32-33 says: “Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near: So likewise you, when you shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.” Luke 21:29-32 records: “And he spoke to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, you see and know of your own selves that summer is now near at hand. So likewise you, when you see these things come to pass, know you that the kingdom of God is near at hand. Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.” In May 1948, Israel was recovered. Shortly after David Ben-Gurion announced the establishment of Israel at Tel Aviv on May 14, 1948, Soviet Union recognized it quickly and set up an embassy thereon May 26, and later supported Israel in many ways. On May 11, 1949, Israel was accepted officially as a member of the United Nations with the support of Soviet Union and America.
.
The Gospel Has Been Preached to the Ends of the Earth

Matthew 24:14 records: “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations; and then shall the end come.” “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world” means when all nations have heard the gospel of the Lord, He will return (which doesn’t mean everyone has heard it or believed in Him.) After the Lord Jesus completed the redemptive work through His crucifixion, the Holy Spirit began to lead God’s chosen people to testify the Lord Jesus. Through the radio stations, networks, books, gospel tracts, missionary work, and so on, the gospel has been spread more and more widely and preached among all nations finally. Thus, the Christians have already been throughout the world. Even in China, which is ruled by an atheist party, many people have accepted the gospel of the Lord Jesus. Therefore, the gospel of the Lord Jesus’ redemption of mankind has spread to the ends of the universe. Dear brothers and sisters, just think about this: Is there any country or region in the world where people haven’t heard the gospel of the Lord Jesus?

 I could go on, but I shall stop now as I doubt you are even still reading and await you reply to my questions.
« Last Edit: Sat Jan 18, 2020 - 13:26:42 by seekingHiswisdom »

Offline robycop3

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Re: What is the time period when the end comes? A new Heaven and a Earth
« Reply #28 on: Sat Jan 18, 2020 - 14:53:20 »
      Same as our word generation, the Koine Greek genea has multiple meanings. it's obvious that in Matt. 24:34, Jesus didn't mean " the body of all people now alive", as the events He prophesied simply haven't yet occurred. And another pret excuse is a bummer; Jesus was spealing LITERALLY to His disciples, as is evidenced by the fact that Jerusalem & the temple were destroyed. (He later prophesied the "days of vengeance" upon that generation of Jews, & that literally cameta pass; the destruction of J & the temple were part of that.)

   When He prophesied "great tribulation", we see details of it given in the Revelation. And, while Jesus didn't mention the "man of sin, that Wicked, the antichrist", Revelation does, as well as his sidekick the false prophet.

  So, preterism remains a false, man-made doctrine, not sustained by Scripture, reality, or history.

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Re: What is the time period when the end comes? A new Heaven and a Earth
« Reply #29 on: Sat Jan 18, 2020 - 15:58:31 »
      Same as our word generation, the Koine Greek genea has multiple meanings. it's obvious that in Matt. 24:34, Jesus didn't mean " the body of all people now alive", as the events He prophesied simply haven't yet occurred. And another pret excuse is a bummer; Jesus was spealing LITERALLY to His disciples, as is evidenced by the fact that Jerusalem & the temple were destroyed. (He later prophesied the "days of vengeance" upon that generation of Jews, & that literally cameta pass; the destruction of J & the temple were part of that.)

   When He prophesied "great tribulation", we see details of it given in the Revelation. And, while Jesus didn't mention the "man of sin, that Wicked, the antichrist", Revelation does, as well as his sidekick the false prophet.

  So, preterism remains a false, man-made doctrine, not sustained by Scripture, reality, or history.

Get behind me Satan! 

Offline lea

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Re: What is the time period when the end comes? A new Heaven and a Earth
« Reply #30 on: Sat Jan 18, 2020 - 17:13:21 »
seeking,
Quote

    Comment: It was Jesus who said  "but the end is not yet.

Matthew 24and 25 is one continuous story. He told the disciples what would happen between the time He left and the next 30-40 years. The nation rising against nation in Matt.24:7 is explained:

(“Augustus’ inauguration of an Age of Peace at the Ludi Saeculares in 17 B.C. (Horace Carmen saeculare) was not an empty gesture.  In the Roman Empire proper, this period of peace remained comparatively undisturbed until the time of Nero.”5  During Nero’s reign Rome went to war with the Parthians, there was a war in Britain and various other rebellious disturbances across the empire.  All these uprisings and wars immediately preceded the Jewish War in fulfillment of vs. 6-7.)

Earthquakes happened in the 60's AD. Laodicea and Colossae in AD60. Laodicea quickly rebuilt with their own finances. Colossae wasn't able to.

Quote
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

      Question: Where in the bible do they say the apostles were killed in a tribulation? OR where can I read about the killing
     of them?

10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
(The second wave of persecution broke out in Rome in A.D. 64.  At this time some Christians were arrested, “then on their information a very large multitude was convicted.”11  Here one can see the fulfillment of v. 10: “At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other. . . .”  These Christians who were betrayed by their brethren were draped in animal skins and ripped apart by dogs or crucified in a major public spectacle.  And at night, these people were burned as torches to light the streets of Rome.12  According to church tradition, it was during this massacre that Peter was crucified and Paul, beheaded.  This same tradition teaches that nearly all of the disciples were martyred.  Matthew was killed by a sword in Ethiopia.  Mark was dragged by horses through the streets of Alexandria.  Luke was hanged in Greece.  Bartholomew was flogged to death.  Andrew was crucified.  Thomas was stabbed with a spear in India.  Jude was pierced with arrows.  Matthias was stoned then beheaded, and Barnabas was stoned in Salonica.13)

Finally, Paul said in Col 1:23, (and elsewhere) if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Paul said the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven in the known world at that time.

So then Jesus said the "end" would come.

"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that her desolation is near."
BTW, yes, the Christians fled to Pella (Eusebius wrote it too) Jesus warned them to flee to the mountains in Matt.24.

The new covenant in Christ came. The old covenant waxed old and passed away. (Rev.21)

New heaven and earth came.

Remember Jesus' parable about the wedding feast? Matt.22:1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

4 “Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

Revelation 19:6-9
The Marriage Supper of the Lamb

6 Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out,

“Hallelujah!
For the Lord our God
    the Almighty reigns.
7
Let us rejoice and exult
    and give him the glory,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
    and his Bride has made herself ready;
8
it was granted her to clothe herself
    with fine linen, bright and pure”—

for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

9 And the angel said[a] to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.”


Matt.8:10-12,
The Faith of the Centurion
…10When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11I say to you that many will come from the east and the west to share the banquet with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the sons of the kingdom will be cast into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”…


See, all that would come to the banquet were those who accepted Jesus' invitation. The remnant ( true Israel- His servants) were killed by Israel of the flesh only.

So let us rejoice that we inherited all the blessings for Israel also.

Offline seekingHiswisdom

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Re: What is the time period when the end comes? A new Heaven and a Earth
« Reply #31 on: Sun Jan 19, 2020 - 09:14:18 »
seeking,
Matthew 24and 25 is one continuous story. He told the disciples what would happen between the time He left and the next 30-40 years. The nation rising against nation in Matt.24:7 is explained:

(“Augustus’ inauguration of an Age of Peace at the Ludi Saeculares in 17 B.C. (Horace Carmen saeculare) was not an empty gesture.  In the Roman Empire proper, this period of peace remained comparatively undisturbed until the time of Nero.”5  During Nero’s reign Rome went to war with the Parthians, there was a war in Britain and various other rebellious disturbances across the empire.  All these uprisings and wars immediately preceded the Jewish War in fulfillment of vs. 6-7.)

Earthquakes happened in the 60's AD. Laodicea and Colossae in AD60. Laodicea quickly rebuilt with their own finances. Colossae wasn't able to.
(The second wave of persecution broke out in Rome in A.D. 64.  At this time some Christians were arrested, “then on their information a very large multitude was convicted.”11  Here one can see the fulfillment of v. 10: “At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other. . . .”  These Christians who were betrayed by their brethren were draped in animal skins and ripped apart by dogs or crucified in a major public spectacle.  And at night, these people were burned as torches to light the streets of Rome.12  According to church tradition, it was during this massacre that Peter was crucified and Paul, beheaded.  This same tradition teaches that nearly all of the disciples were martyred.  Matthew was killed by a sword in Ethiopia.  Mark was dragged by horses through the streets of Alexandria.  Luke was hanged in Greece.  Bartholomew was flogged to death.  Andrew was crucified.  Thomas was stabbed with a spear in India.  Jude was pierced with arrows.  Matthias was stoned then beheaded, and Barnabas was stoned in Salonica.13)

Finally, Paul said in Col 1:23, (and elsewhere) if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Paul said the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven in the known world at that time.

So then Jesus said the "end" would come.

"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that her desolation is near."
BTW, yes, the Christians fled to Pella (Eusebius wrote it too) Jesus warned them to flee to the mountains in Matt.24.

The new covenant in Christ came. The old covenant waxed old and passed away. (Rev.21)

New heaven and earth came.

Remember Jesus' parable about the wedding feast? Matt.22:1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

4 “Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

Revelation 19:6-9
The Marriage Supper of the Lamb

6 Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out,

“Hallelujah!
For the Lord our God
    the Almighty reigns.
7
Let us rejoice and exult
    and give him the glory,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
    and his Bride has made herself ready;
8
it was granted her to clothe herself
    with fine linen, bright and pure”—

for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

9 And the angel said[a] to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.”


Matt.8:10-12,
The Faith of the Centurion
…10When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11I say to you that many will come from the east and the west to share the banquet with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the sons of the kingdom will be cast into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”…


See, all that would come to the banquet were those who accepted Jesus' invitation. The remnant ( true Israel- His servants) were killed by Israel of the flesh only.

So let us rejoice that we inherited all the blessings for Israel also.

Lea,

Thank you for jogging my memory on the non biblical history of things.

I understand why you believe as you do, but still think you are wrong.

There are too many important things, from your studies, that should have been included in the bible and were not.

My belief is we were handed a contract, rule book and study guide when we got our bibles that were inspired writings that our heavenly Father wanted all to be aware of. Not for some to dissect every jot and tittle looking for an altered meaning to what was written.

Is that wrong....?  Heavens no.  I am guilty myself of seeing things within the written word that others do not and have written papers. But that was for me, alone and not trying to sway another thinking or belief.

For me, if it is not written either by scant comment or in depth of the bible, it is unimportant for how we are to live or our salvation. Was it not you who knocked the likes of Hagee and Van Impe on their rapture view of things? You see... many have been swayed by these men just as you have by others.

I simply need to see it for myself in the bible....

NO I am not trying to sway you ... You and I simply will agree to disagree.

I do have one comment on what you have written here.

You said:
Quote
        Finally, Paul said in Col 1:23, (and elsewhere) if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Paul said the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven in the known world at that time.     

Paul did say

Colossians 1:23-26 (KJV)

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;


...........preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

That was limited to that side of the ocean... Atlantic.... and not applicable to this.
And it could not have been preached to every creature under heaven at that time as many would not have come to hear him or others teaching on the subject and back then there were still parts of Africa and other parts of the world over there that simply had no way to know of their existence.

Not like today with Magazines, and Newspapers, and  TV and Radios and Internet... and the never to be forgotten "cell" phones.

And argument could be made that it appears he is saying it is preached to those of whom he was made a minister to only...

I have, and had to look up a great article on the deaths of the apostles.....

Have a look and enjoy:

https://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/how-did-the-12-apostles-die-a-bible-study/

You had replied to my question of your statement

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

      Question: Where in the bible do they say the apostles were killed in a tribulation? OR where can I read about the killing
     of them?

With

(The second wave of persecution broke out in Rome in A.D. 64.  At this time some Christians were arrested, “then on their information a very large multitude was convicted.”11  Here one can see the fulfillment of v. 10: “At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other. . . .”  These Christians who were betrayed by their brethren were draped in animal skins and ripped apart by dogs or crucified in a major public spectacle.  And at night, these people were burned as torches to light the streets of Rome.12  According to church tradition, it was during this massacre that Peter was crucified and Paul, beheaded.  This same tradition teaches that nearly all of the disciples were martyred.  Matthew was killed by a sword in Ethiopia.  Mark was dragged by horses through the streets of Alexandria.  Luke was hanged in Greece.  Bartholomew was flogged to death.  Andrew was crucified.  Thomas was stabbed with a spear in India.  Jude was pierced with arrows.  Matthias was stoned then beheaded, and Barnabas was stoned in Salonica.13)

While it still gives little info on the deaths of the apostles.... You suggest this as a reply to my queery about the Great Tribulation....

The one where Jesus said

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The deaths of the apostles do not reflect this kind of tribulation or that any days were shortened.

 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

That simply has not happened yet.

Anyway,

Be bless and keep on studying, as I shall.








Offline lea

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Re: What is the time period when the end comes? A new Heaven and a Earth
« Reply #32 on: Sun Jan 19, 2020 - 12:50:17 »
seekingHiswisdom,

I know you disagree, and I accept that. However, I cannot understand the reasons for which you pointed out.

One cannot find descriptions of the apostles deaths in Scripture. We have to rely on history for those facts. Even Jesus indicated to Peter the manner of death he would die in John 21:18,19.

Jesus gave predictions.  What is clear to me is in Matt.24:22 when Jesus says: "But for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened. The elect there meant the believers in Jesus in Judea, and not the rebellious Jews that the war was protracted for.

Daniel 12 is a parallel about that time:
NKJV
Prophecy of the End Time
1“At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.
4“But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
5Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank. 6And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?”
7Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.


See,  about the apostles deaths, even  the death of James, the Lord's brother is recorded in history and not in Scripture itself:

(According to a passage in Josephus's Jewish Antiquities, (xx.9) "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James" met his death after the death of the procurator Porcius Festus, yet before Lucceius Albinus took office (Antiquities 20,9) — which has thus been dated to 62. The High Priest Ananus ben Ananus took advantage of this lack of imperial oversight to assemble a Sanhedrin who condemned James "on the charge of breaking the law," then had him executed by stoning. Josephus reports that Ananus' act was widely viewed as little more than judicial murder, and offended a number of "those who were considered the most fair-minded people in the City, and strict in their observance of the Law," who went as far as meeting Albinus as he entered the province to petition him about the matter. In response, King Agrippa replaced Ananus with Jesus, the son of Damneus. )

Now as far as St. Paul stating that the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven - Note, as I have, that that was the known world at that time. So, today, since the known world has grown, we still have a commission to preach the gospel to our present world. (the nations).

I'll end there for now. Going to watch the AFC football championship game and have to do some things before then!

Go Chiefs!

Offline robycop3

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Re: What is the time period when the end comes? A new Heaven and a Earth
« Reply #33 on: Mon Jan 20, 2020 - 01:21:11 »
  The great trib will occur after the "Gog-Magog war" against Israel, when the 'beast' shall be in power, shortly after he commits the "abomination of desolation" & has his sidekick the false prophet institute the "marka the beast". I believe the existing Christians will be "raptured" before the trib begins, but there'll be "trib saints" afterward who won't take the mark & will subsist as best they can, with some being martyred & others killed by the trib itself. Jesus will cut the trib short lest all flesh (man & animal alike) perish, & He will return shortly afterward. (He said "immediately after" in Matt. 24:29-30)

Offline lea

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Re: What is the time period when the end comes? A new Heaven and a Earth
« Reply #34 on: Mon Jan 20, 2020 - 11:32:57 »
  The great trib will occur after the "Gog-Magog war" against Israel, when the 'beast' shall be in power, shortly after he commits the "abomination of desolation" & has his sidekick the false prophet institute the "marka the beast". I believe the existing Christians will be "raptured" before the trib begins, but there'll be "trib saints" afterward who won't take the mark & will subsist as best they can, with some being martyred & others killed by the trib itself. Jesus will cut the trib short lest all flesh (man & animal alike) perish, & He will return shortly afterward. (He said "immediately after" in Matt. 24:29-30)
Your false prophecies continue. I say with your thought in mind that it is you who will be a tribulation saint and get killed by the trib!

Just in this one instance, you never learned to have Scriptural basis for your false prophecies.
IE: No rapture. Jesus said in John 17:15.

“I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.”


So, your words are false from the get go. The rest of your anxious replies are not worth considering.

 

     
anything