News:

Buy things on Amazon? Please go to gracecentered.com/amazon FIRST and we'll earn a commission from your order!

Main Menu
+-+-

+-User

Welcome, Guest.
Please login or register.
 
 
 
Forgot your password?

+-Stats ezBlock

Members
Total Members: 80078
Latest: Lollyclose
New This Month: 4
New This Week: 2
New Today: 1
Stats
Total Posts: 890874
Total Topics: 89536
Most Online Today: 508
Most Online Ever: 2999
(Fri Jan 13, 2023 - 21:20:46)
Users Online
Members: 0
Guests: 439
Total: 439
Google

How does one get "INTO CHRIST"?~ D. W. Baker

Started by Rella, Mon Apr 24, 2023 - 06:22:27

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

yogi bear


Red Baker

Yogi, there are some good people on this forum, even if we may disagree on certain truths, still God fearing people.

Wycliffes_Shillelagh


Rella

Quote from: Alan on Mon Apr 24, 2023 - 10:47:55That verse is not speaking of the elect, it's referring to the accompanying parable about the wedding, and the King requesting the servants go out into the streets and bring as many people to the feast as possible, as the invitees to the wedding did not want to go. In the end, the hall was filled but one man was cast out from the wedding. The parable describes him as not having a wedding garment on, but that means he was likely an unrighteous religious leader, or perhaps a Pharisee of the day.

"Many are called but few are chosen" directly relates to us and the paths we choose.

A very old thread, with a long hiatus between, begs for a comment.

4WD made a reply to RB's quasi-Calvinist beliefs. And then I enter with,

"But of course that is wrong."   Are you sure about that? Seems to me to be the perfect explanation of Matthew 22:14

For many are called, but few are chosen." ~ Whether predetermined or not one must have faith and without that faith you are not saved. ERGO... reading and praying is very important.

Alan,   ::frown::

What is it about what I said here
For many are called, but few are chosen." ~ Whether pre determined or not one must have faith and without that faith you are not saved. ERGO... reading and praying is very important.
 
If God sits up in heaven and pre-chooses who will be tapped to be saved, one might as well donate their bibles to China because whatever they read will not not alter their course of to eternity. Their path in life will be set and they should all walk around with the OSAS puffed up egos that many do have.

For there is no reason to read and study to show thyself approved because you have no free will and other then.....No, I best not say it...

So what is it
that you feel does not conform to your "directly relates to us and the paths we choose."???

Faith is , after all, a path. Unless you feel your path is laid out?And if that is the case this parable is simply a story that would show a what if.

Oh yes, I know the parable this is about ... but that does not mean that whatever is dedicated into a specific parable is specifically for only that....

I am not a cookie cutter Calvenist, unlike some here. I also am not a die hard Arminian.

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Apr 24, 2023 - 08:10:48

Yes, but according to D.W. Baker if you are not of the "elect" all that reading and praying will be of no consequence whatsoever.  But of course that is wrong.

I followed with...
"But of course that is wrong."   Are you sure about that? Seems to me to be the perfect explanation of Matthew 22:14

I never heard RB say not to study to show thyself approved. In fact, other the 4WD, RB has quoted from the 4 corners of that Holy book more than anyone else theologically speaking on faith.

2 Timothy 2:15 tells us ... Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Of course there is no way to tell if ones understanding of what they read and understand is in fact, fact... such as the teaching of a member here regarding the "Faith of Jesus" and I am not going to open that one up

Now: One commentary suggests (And yes, I still am not overly into commentaries other than for comparison sake)

This passage, especially including this verse, contributes to a sense of tension between two ideas. Scripture seems to counterweight two concepts which are not contradictory, but which overlap in complex ways. On one side is God's choice of those who will enter the kingdom of heaven. On the other is the mandate for people to accept the invitation and receive the gift of God's grace by faith in Christ. Even in Jesus' parable, some willingly refuse the invitation. Some accept and fully engage. One seems to accept the invitation, but not entirely. Jesus concludes by saying that many are called to come and participate, but few are chosen to stay.

In a later passage, Jesus will refer several times to a chosen group called "the elect" (Matthew 24:22, 24, 31). It is clear from the gospel that everyone included in the elect—all those who are chosen—received the gift of God's eternal grace after trusting in Jesus (Ephesians 2:8–9). God calls to everyone to come to Him through faith in Christ (Acts 4:12). This demonstrates the limits of human understanding (Isaiah 55:8–9). Mysteriously, and in some interrelated way, only those elected by God will believe, and yet those elected will believe by their own choice. Only those who truly believe (John 3:16–18), those who sincerely and deeply obey the call, are the chosen ones.


"Mysteriously, and in some interrelated way, only those elected by God will believe, and yet those elected will believe by their own choice."

HMMMMM.  Yep... sure interesting viewing for us fence sitters and I stand by my beliefs that "For many are called, but few are chosen."  definitely works for what I was responding to 4WD about ::tippinghat:: 

4WD

#39
Quote from: Rella on Sun Nov 26, 2023 - 14:23:37Mysteriously, and in some interrelated way, only those elected by God will believe,
No, it is only those who believe who will be elected by God.  In Romans 8:28 it is those who love God that are called according to His purpose. It is those who believe in God that love God. Paul then goes on in verses 29 and 30 to describe God's response to those who love Him based upon His foreknowledge.

Red Baker

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Fri Nov 17, 2023 - 16:51:04Red can post?  Glory hallelujah.
Yes I can now, so, I will jump in maybe tomorrow. I have a annoying sinus headache at the moment.

Alan

Quote from: Rella on Sun Nov 26, 2023 - 14:23:37For many are called....
 

That line kills the elect narrative, in their version of salvation, "many" are not called. 

Texas Conservative

Quote from: Alan on Mon Dec 04, 2023 - 18:00:00That line kills the elect narrative, in their version of salvation, "many" are not called.

"Elect" is in scripture.  So how does some other line kill scripture?  Further "many are called" is followed up by "few are chosen." 

yogi bear

I would like to know just how they are called?? what is the biblical answer to that?

Rella

Quote from: Alan on Mon Dec 04, 2023 - 18:00:00That line kills the elect narrative, in their version of salvation, "many" are not called.

For many are called, but few are chosen.

Please explain this.

Rella

Quote from: yogi bear on Mon Dec 04, 2023 - 21:57:38I would like to know just how they are called?? what is the biblical answer to that?

Great question.  ::eatingpopcorn:

4WD

Quote from: yogi bear on Mon Dec 04, 2023 - 21:57:38I would like to know just how they are called?? what is the biblical answer to that?

I think in its most basic idea it means to be invited.

Adam Clark provides the following:

To them who are the called according to his purpose - Dr. Taylor translates τοις κλητοις, the invited; and observes that it is a metaphor taken from inviting guests, or making them welcome to a feast. As if he had said: Certainly all things work together for their good; for this reason, because they are called, invited, or made welcome to the blessings of the covenant, (which is ratified in eating of the covenant sacrifice), according to God's original purpose first declared to Abraham, Gen_17:4 : Thou shalt be a father of many nations - and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him, Gen_18:18. Thus this clause is to be understood; and thus it is an argument to prove that all things, how afflictive soever, shall work for our good while we continue to love God. Our being called or invited, according to God's purpose, proves that all things work for our good, on the supposition that we love God, and not otherwise. For our loving God, or making a due improvement of our calling, is evidently inserted by the apostle to make good his argument. He does not pretend to prove that all things shall concur to the everlasting happiness of all that are called; but only to those of the called who love God. Our calling, thus qualified is the ground of his argument, which he prosecutes and completes in the two next verses. Our calling he takes for granted, as a thing evident and unquestionable among all Christians. But you will say: How is it evident and unquestionable that we are called? I answer: From our being in the visible Church, and professing the faith of the Gospel. For always, in the apostolic writings, all that are in the visible Church, and profess the faith of the Gospel, are numbered among the called or invited; i.e. among the persons who are invited to feast on the covenant sacrifice, and who thus, in reference to themselves, confirm and ratify the covenant. As for what is termed effectual calling, as distinguished from the general invitations of the Gospel, it is a distinction which divines have invented without any warrant from the sacred writings. Our calling, therefore, is considered by the apostle in the nature of a self-evident proposition, which nobody doubts or denies; or which, indeed, no Christian ought to doubt, or can call in question, Taylor's notes.

3 Resurrections

#47
Quote from: Rella on Tue Dec 05, 2023 - 06:47:43For many are called, but few are chosen.

Please explain this.

This is not referring to only a few of the entirety of mankind over all of history being chosen out of the many called ones.  It is specifically referring to the many of the nation of Israel who were "called" by the oracles of the scriptures being originally given to them.  Only a comparatively few remnant of ethnic Israelites from the Old Covenant would become children of faith.

It is just as Paul quoted Isaiah in Romans 9:27, "Though the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant shall be saved", and "Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha."

The parables which Christ gave (as the one here in Matthew 22:1-14 about the wedding feast) show that there were ethnic Israelites who were first bidden to this "feast", but who rejected it, made light of it, and even slew the servants whom the king had sent to give them the "invitation".  Many in ethnic Israel were "called" by God originally giving them the "oracles" of God, but only a remnant few of them were chosen to become children of faith.

God then sent forth His armies to destroy those who murdered His servants and burned up their city (Old Jerusalem).  It became obvious at that point that the "call" went out to those outside ethnic Israel, the poor, maimed, halt, and blind, with God even "compelling" those in the highways and hedges to come in.  These were in addition to the "remnant" of ethnic Israel who believed, which would result in God's supper table being filled. 

There are a set number of "place settings" at this table, and God doesn't lose a single guest of the many it takes to fill it. And it is NOT a few in total.   

Rella

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Tue Dec 05, 2023 - 09:46:16This is not referring to only a few of the entirety of mankind over all of history being chosen out of the many called ones.  It is specifically referring to the many of the nation of Israel who were "called" by the oracles of the scriptures being originally given to them.  Only a comparatively few remnant of ethnic Israelites from the Old Covenant would become children of faith.

It is just as Paul quoted Isaiah in Romans 9:27, "Though the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant shall be saved", and "Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha."

The parables which Christ gave (as the one here in Matthew 22:1-14 about the wedding feast) show that there were ethnic Israelites who were first bidden to this "feast", but who rejected it, made light of it, and even slew the servants whom the king had sent to give them the "invitation".  Many in ethnic Israel were "called" by God originally giving them the "oracles" of God, but only a remnant few of them were chosen to become children of faith.

God then sent forth His armies to destroy those who murdered His servants and burned up their city (Old Jerusalem).  It became obvious at that point that the "call" went out to those outside ethnic Israel, the poor, maimed, halt, and blind, with God even "compelling" those in the highways and hedges to come in.  These were in addition to the "remnant" of ethnic Israel who believed, which would result in God's supper table being filled. 

There are a set number of "place settings" at this table, and God doesn't lose a single guest of the many it takes to fill it. And it is NOT a few in total.   
::tippinghat::

Alan

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Mon Dec 04, 2023 - 20:22:12"Elect" is in scripture.  So how does some other line kill scripture?  Further "many are called" is followed up by "few are chosen." 
Since you decided to jump in here, we were discussing the Calvinistic viewpoint of the "elect". I don't think a single honest Calvinist would say that many are called unless they twist the meaning of the term.  

People are making this simple verse far too complicated.

brightfame52

QuoteHow does one get "INTO CHRIST"?~

I believe its by a Sovereign act of the Fathers Will before the foundation of the world

1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Eph 1:3-4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he[The Father] hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

4WD

The following is taken from an addendum to the Commentary on Romans by James B. Coffman.


In Christ Jesus

The redemption that is in Christ ...
The expression "in Christ" is, in some ways, the most important in all the Pauline writings, where this expression, or its equivalent, "in whom," "in him," etc., is used no less than 169 times.

What does it mean to be "in Christ"? It means to be in his spiritual body, called the church, the body of which Christ is the head, of which he is declared to be the Savior, and which means having a spiritual relationship to Christ, a relationship of intimate union and identification with him. Redemption is not in faith, or baptism, or in anything else except being "in Christ." Right here is that device contrived by God himself by which a man might truly and legitimately be justified; and it might be looked upon as a divine entity.

This writer is indebted to John Mackay, former President of Princeton Theological Seminary, for this concept of a divine corporation. He wrote:

Which God designated to give historical fulfillment to the "plan of the mystery." That organ is a community, the community of the "chosen in Christ," of "the destined in love." In the Epistle of the Ephesians, which is supremely interested in the corporate side of Christianity, "The People of God" occupy a central place. In the Old Testament they formed the "Commonwealth of Israel" in the New Testament the Christian Church, "the Body of Christ."

Being In Christ Jesus

Inherent in the very fact of Christ's having a spiritual body is the concept of its being extra-literal. What kind of body is it? That it is a community of believers on earth is implicit in the fact that the Corinthians had "by one Spirit" all been baptized "into it" (1 Corinthians 12:13). That, in the last analysis, it includes more than the church is plainly set forth in Ephesians where "every family" in heaven and upon earth are a part of it. All the saved of all ages are in it, because only in Christ has salvation ever been possible for anyone. The wonder of this body is that it is truly spoken of as a person, like any other organization, being, in fact, a fully legal person; hence the propriety of saying that one is "in Christ."

Christ's absolute righteousness cannot be separated from himself and conferred or imputed to others, true righteousness being non-transferable; but it is possible, thanks to the wise provision of God in forming the body of those "in Christ," for all who will to enter that body, becoming one with Christ, fully identifiable with him, and being in fact "in him." All such then share Christ's righteousness. It is truly theirs. This is what Paul means by "redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

The result of being in Christ is the righteousness of Christ. In Christ is a bank of all the righteousness ever accredited to people. All spiritual blessings are categorically said to be in this body, "in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3). This means that there are no spiritual blessings anywhere except in Christ.

Who are those who make up Christ's spiritual body, thus being "in Christ"? The New Testament gives the following clues to their identity:

They are those who have been born again. Christ's spiritual body, also called by Christ "the kingdom," cannot be entered except by the new birth (John 3:3-5). They are those who are the "new" creatures. "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature" (2 Corinthians 5:17). And, like every other official body, being in Jesus Christ has a seal.

Paul wrote to the Ephesians:
In whom (that is, in Christ), having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13).
Thus, the members of the body of Jesus Christ are those who have been sealed with the Holy Spirit. They are also the saved, for the author of Acts declared that

The Lord added to them day by day those that were being saved (Acts 2:47).

The true members of body of Jesus Christ are the saved, the sealed with the Holy Spirit, the new born, the new creatures. In a word, they are baptized believers in Christ. The reception of the Holy Spirit of promise, in the first sermon of the gospel age, was made contingent upon the repentance and baptism of those who believed (Acts 2:38), and Paul's mentioning "of promise" in Eph. 1:13, above, shows that he had that in mind. Baptism is an essential element in the new birth, though not the whole of it; and the "newness of life" which belongs to every person "in Christ" follows his being baptized into Christ (Romans 6:4). There can be no marvel, therefore, at the fact of baptism's being mentioned three times in the New Testament as an act of obedience that results in the believer's having a new status, that of being "in Christ." "Baptized into Christ" is found in Rom. 6:3 and Gal. 3:27; and, in 1 Corinthians, it is written: "For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body" (12:13).

From these Holy Scriptures, there comes the certain conclusion, then, that faith is not the sum and all of salvation; it was not even so in the case of Christ whose faith and perfect obedience wrought salvation for all; nor can it be supposed that "faith alone," defined by James as "dead" (James 2:17f), can ever avail anything except the eternal disappointment of them that trust in it.

In that all have sinned, a fact Paul was at great labor to prove, there resides the absolute necessity for every man to die as the penalty of sin, that penalty to be understood not merely as mortal but as eternal death; and God's justice will require that every man ever born on earth pay it, unless exempted through being in Christ. Thus, in the final judgment, only those who are truly "in Christ," members of that entity called the spiritual body, can truly be exempted, and that not upon the basis of their faith alone, but upon the basis that Christ actually died for them, and that they died "in the person of Christ." That is the thrust of Paul's thought that Christians have been "baptized into his death" (Romans 6:3).

The body of Jesus Christ is established through purchase by the blood of Christ (Acts 20:28), the device God had planned before all time, and the mystery hidden before times eternal, and now made "known through the church" (Ephesians 3:10), and called the "mystery of the gospel" (Ephesians 6:19).

These thoughts are offered in the prayerful hope that people may forsake human theories of salvation, that they might believe and be baptized, as Christ commanded, and give glory to God "in the church" as directed by an apostle (Ephesians 3:21).

Like every figure of speech used to convey eternal truth, this one also results in certain distortions, as, for example, above where Christ is spoken of as being alone entitled to salvation. Of course, he was never lost; but the inheritance of the saints is scripturally noted as that which they shall receive as joint-heirs with Christ. Thus, subject to the limitation of all metaphor, this one is conceived of as a vehicle for vital truth, taught abstractly, throughout the New Testament; and, it is hoped, made a little plainer in this comparison.

Thus, only the righteous, the perfect, the truly faithful and obedient shall be saved; and there will be no basis for any man to boast of having anything such as that, because such is not in man; but it is in Christ, and those in Christ may through absolute identification with Christ truly say that they are perfect, etc. That is what Paul meant when he wrote: "That we may present every man perfect in Christ" (Colossians 1:28).

Thus, it will not be an imparted righteousness, but rather an imputed righteousness procured, by grace through faith, by a real, actual righteousness wrought by Christ, that can save such a one as sinful man, and then only if he will die to himself and become utterly one with Christ in Christ.

As Paul said of himself:
It is no longer I that live, but Christ liveth in me; and that life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me (Galatians 2:20).

Before leaving Rom. 3:24, the seeming paradox of how God's grace is free and at the same time all people do not receive it, should be observed.

Paul wrote Titus:
For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly and righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11,12).

From this, it is plain that God's grace having appeared, and salvation having been brought to all people, refer to the availability of that grace and salvation, and not to their being unconditionally bestowed. From the farmer who reaps down his fields to the fishermen off the Grand Banks, all men receive God's gifts conditionally, and never unconditionally. Thus, it is no surprise that God's grace and salvation came "instructing men," with the necessary deduction that rejection of the instructions was automatically rejection of the grace and salvation. Failure to comply with divinely imposed conditions is forfeiture of all benefits conditionally given.


Read, learn and enjoy.

brightfame52

So the elect are in Christ legally/representatively by election before the foundation,

Then they are in Christ Spiritually with a Spiritual union when they are born again by the Spirit and converted by the Truth and believe

Red Baker

Quote from: brightfame52 on Tue May 28, 2024 - 10:15:15I believe its by a Sovereign act of the Fathers Will before the foundation of the world

1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Eph 1:3-4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he[The Father] hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Welcome~I may come and post on this subject on the weekend.

brightfame52

1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Of Who ? Of God the Father. Thats how these Believers to whom Paul is writing got into Christ Jesus. It wasn't by their believing, nor their will in any shape or form, but it was by the eternal purpose of the Father when He chose them in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4, and it was according to His Purpose and Grace given them in Christ Jesus before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

These believers as well as any True Believers are in Christ Jesus according to God the Father own Eternal Purpose !

Red Baker

Amen~I promised to post something on this and I will maybe today.

4WD

It would be good to see a Red Baker sticking his nose back into the picture again every now then.  ::smile::

Red Baker


+-Recent Topics

Creation scientists by 4WD
Today at 18:51:18

The Image of the Beast. by Hobie
Today at 18:49:09

Brutal, less than 5 min by Jaime
Today at 18:36:11

Keeping the Sabbath tells people Who you Worship. by Rella
Today at 13:34:38

mommydi by mommydi
Yesterday at 21:25:03

Gibbon\Rome by Amo
Yesterday at 12:32:26

Italian Teenager to Become the First Millennial Saint by armchairscholar
Yesterday at 05:55:53

Fellowship With Transgenders by Alan
Thu Jun 20, 2024 - 21:02:16

SCOTUS by Rella
Thu Jun 20, 2024 - 16:46:50

In the middle of our heat wave...... by Rella
Thu Jun 20, 2024 - 13:09:52

Powered by EzPortal