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Keeping the Sabbath tells people Who you Worship.

Started by Hobie, Sat Feb 24, 2024 - 05:35:09

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0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Amo

QuoteNew Testament believers are freed from the bondage of sin, which allows them to freely live out the Ten Commandments, summarized by Christ this way: "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets" (Matthew 22:36–40, NASB).

So is this to say that old covenant or testament believers were not freed from the bondage of sin by faith? Not truly forgiven? The old testament summed up the commandments of God in the same manner as the New Testament. So why didn't it mean to them then, what the above claims it means today? According to Paul, the gospel was preached to them as well.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Jaime

#36
Mathew 5:19 has always bothered me the way it is translated.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least IN the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The Greek word translated "IN" the kingdom can also be translated "BY" the kingdom. I find it hard to believe that Jesus would teach that someone who breaks any commandments of the Law, AND teaches others to do so would even BE in the kingdom mucn less LEAST IN it. With the context, it HAS to be LEAST BY (those in) the kingdom.

The way most versions have translate it, one would maybe still be a custodian level in the kingdom of heaven. I would think unlikely considering the context of Mathew 5.

Rella

Quote from: Jaime on Sat May 25, 2024 - 21:57:28Mathew 5:19 has always bothered me the way it is translated.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least IN the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The Greek word translated "IN" the kingdom can also be translated "BY" the kingdom. I find it hard to believe that Jesus would teach that someone who breaks any commandments of the Law, AND teaches others to do so would even BE in the kingdom mucn less LEAST IN it. With the context, it HAS to be LEAST BY (those in) the kingdom.

The way most versions have translate it, one would maybe still be a custodian level in the kingdom of heaven. I would think unlikely considering the context of Mathew 5.


Do you feel that everyone is equal in heaven?

I used to have a boss who would say as long as he is in heaven he will be happy with a bale of hay in a corner.

You said "  With the context, it HAS to be LEAST BY (those in) the kingdom."

Then those are the least wont be anywhere in heaven? OK... If that be the case then I doubt
very much that those in the kingdom of heaven will give thought to anyone who is not???

Now... Just give a serious thought to this.

What if all these years Amo and Hobie have been right, and those who have taught us that the 4th commandment does not apply because we are in Jesus
got it all wrong.

If that be the case... we all are in trouble

Jaime

#38
I still can't get my head around Jesus saying someone who disobeys the least commandment and teaches other to so are in the kingdom of heaven (even here!). Jesus was not about pardoning those that disobey God's commands. Neither was God the Father. It HAS to be considered least "BY"(those in) the Kingdom of heaven, in my opinion, since the Greek word translated IN also can be translated BY, If context has anything to do with translation and it DOES.  Being a janitor in the kingdom would involve obeying God's commands. Even the least one, whichever one that is. And certainly teaching others to disobey would not be looked at favorably by God when in or out or out of the Kingdom is determined. To me, Jesus is saying those people will be considered LEAST BY the kingdom or BY those IN the kingdom.

Also, considered LEAST by the Kingdom could be simply considered Least period by the King himself.   It doesn't have to be by the other occupants.

Jaime

Quote from: Rella on Sun May 26, 2024 - 18:55:28What if all these years Amo and Hobie have been right, and those who have taught us that the 4th commandment does not apply because we are in Jesus
got it all wrong.

If that be the case... we all are in trouble

I am now in my old age open to think EVERYTHING I believe needs to be audited and/or questioned maybe other than Jesus is Lord! When I get comfortable with my beliefs, that is usually when I get surprised.

I am becoming more and more wary of how things were translated from Hebrew or Greek into English. I think that bias played a pretty big role in how our English Bibles came to be. Some of the most important differences were very subtle and with very small seemingly insignificant words bringing very significant changes. Our discussions of baptism in the past have demonstrated this as to how a passage ought to be taken. My tribe (denomination) has fallen for this as I believe most all have to some extent. Personally I may fail to be correct on something, but I DO want to see where all the perspectives  come from or were derived.

Rella

Quote from: Jaime on Mon May 27, 2024 - 07:18:41I am now in my old age open to think EVERYTHING I believe needs to be audited and/or questioned maybe other than Jesus is Lord! When I get comfortable with my beliefs, that is usually when I get surprised.

I am becoming more and more wary of how things were translated from Hebrew or Greek into English. I think that bias played a pretty big role in how our English Bibles came to be. Some of the most important differences were very subtle and with very small seemingly insignificant words bringing very significant changes. Our discussions of baptism in the past have demonstrated this as to how a passage ought to be taken. My tribe (denomination) has fallen for this as I believe most all have to some extent. Personally I may fail to be correct on something, but I DO want to see where all the perspectives  come from or were derived.

Excellent thoughts and well said.


Texas Conservative

Quote from: Rella on Sun May 26, 2024 - 18:55:28Do you feel that everyone is equal in heaven?

I used to have a boss who would say as long as he is in heaven he will be happy with a bale of hay in a corner.

You said "  With the context, it HAS to be LEAST BY (those in) the kingdom."

Then those are the least wont be anywhere in heaven? OK... If that be the case then I doubt
very much that those in the kingdom of heaven will give thought to anyone who is not???

Now... Just give a serious thought to this.

What if all these years Amo and Hobie have been right, and those who have taught us that the 4th commandment does not apply because we are in Jesus
got it all wrong.

If that be the case... we all are in trouble

If Amo and Hobie are right, a lot of content from the Epistles written by Paul are false

Rella

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Mon May 27, 2024 - 08:01:32If Amo and Hobie are right, a lot of content from the Epistles written by Paul are false

Good point.  ::thumbup::  ::thumbup::

Jaime

#43
I would say maybe Paul is not as clear to us as we think. Where there is conflict  or apparent of conflict, I go with Jesus' words. As Peter said once, Paul is difficult to understand. I don't think Christianity has totally grasped Paul's writings in some ways.

Texas Conservative

Quote from: Jaime on Mon May 27, 2024 - 11:32:38I would say maybe Paul is not as clear to us as we think. Where there is conflict  or apparent of conflict, I go with Jesus' words. As Peter said once, Paul is difficult to understand. I don't think Christianity has totally grasped Paul's writings in some ways.

The conflict is in your reading.  Your reading strategy is faulty.  There is no conflict. Jesus is addressing Jews under the law prior to His death and resurrection. Context and audience are important.

Jaime

#45
But believing Jews and Gentiles were grafted on or back on to the same olive tree, according to Paul. They became one people, God's people. There is no Jew and Gentile in the kingdom. There is ONE gospel, not two.

Texas Conservative

Quote from: Jaime on Mon May 27, 2024 - 13:04:00But believing Jews and Gentiles were grafted on or back on to the same olive tree, according to Paul. They became one people, God's people. There is no Jew and Gentile in the kingdom. There is ONE gospel, not two.

Who said there were two gospels?

Jesus in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John was speaking primarily to Jews under the Law.  After the death, burial, and resurrection Jesus "made all things new."  This is where Paul picked up.

We are not under the Law.  The Sabbath observance that Amo and Hobie push is by observing the Law.  They are foolish Galatians.

Jaime

#47
Sounded like you were saying Jesus was talking one story and Paul another. I say it's one story. One gospel for both Jews and Gentiles.

Amo

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Mon May 27, 2024 - 08:01:32If Amo and Hobie are right, a lot of content from the Epistles written by Paul are false

Only if or when separated from proper context, and or the rest of his own writings which expound upon and bring clarity to his teachings as a whole.

You are of course free to counter this view and defend your own with scripture, if you are interested in more than one liner accusations.

Amo

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Mon May 27, 2024 - 14:04:46Who said there were two gospels?

Jesus in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John was speaking primarily to Jews under the Law.  After the death, burial, and resurrection Jesus "made all things new."  This is where Paul picked up.

We are not under the Law.  The Sabbath observance that Amo and Hobie push is by observing the Law.  They are foolish Galatians.

Why do you so blatantly contradict the one you claim SDA's are contradicting?

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Apart from Christ, all are under the law, and guilty before God.



Amo

QuoteWe are not under the Law.  The Sabbath observance that Amo and Hobie push is by observing the Law.  They are foolish Galatians.

It is as I have said. You contradict Paul's own teachings and words, in your false accusations. You will not bear false witness against others with impunity before God.

Go to, and read the book of Galatians again. The entire issue Paul was addressing which you have pulled out of context and applied to one of the ten commandments of God, was the false insistence of some of the Jews that new converts to Christ needed to be circumcised. By applying these teachings of Paul to the fourth commandment of God, you have twisted the words of this apostle to say that which he never intended, and contradicted what he specifically stated and taught in another of his admonitions for the church.

1Cor 7:17 Only, let each one live the life which the Lord has assigned him, and to which God has called him [for each person is unique and is accountable for his choices and conduct, let him walk in this way]. This is the rule I make in all the churches. 18 Was anyone at the time of his calling [from God already] circumcised? He is not to [h]become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called while uncircumcised? He is not to be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is keeping the commandments of God. 20 Each one should remain in the condition in which he was [when he was] called.(AMP)

And who does the above testimony of Paul address, but new converts to Christ Jesus our Lord, from the apostle of or to the Gentiles.

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Are you not now among those Peter warned against in the above scriptures? Have you not wrested or twisted the teachings of Paul unto your own understanding or agenda? You have added meaning to his words he never intended, and contradicted and or ignored words he meant and conclusively stated.


Texas Conservative

It is apparent you don't understand scripture.  And Galatians applies for what you and Hobie teach.  You tie the gospel and the Christian life to law keeping.

Just like Hebrews 7 shows

Quote11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. 13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is attested of Him,

"You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek."

18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. 20 And inasmuch as it was not without an oath 21 (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,

"The Lord has sworn
And will not change His mind,
'You are a priest forever'");

22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

23 The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, 24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.


Texas Conservative

Quote from: Jaime on Mon May 27, 2024 - 14:18:43Sounded like you were saying Jesus was talking one story and Paul another. I say it's one story. One gospel for both Jews and Gentiles.

I didn't say Jesus was talking one story, and Paul another.  I am saying context, timeline, and audience matter.

Jaime

#53
Jesus was speaking to the Jews first about the Kingdom of heaven in the Gospels. Paul elaborated on the mystery of the Gospel being that the Gentiles were included as fellow heirs to the Kingdom of heaven. Two perspectives of ONE story from Genesis to Revelation.

Rella

Quote from: Amo on Sat May 25, 2024 - 17:37:08Who makes this stuff up? Who made up the rule, that unless a commandment of God is repeated exactly enough in the New Testament, it no longer needs to be kept?


You were replying to my Got Questions link...

And I would reply that it would have been Jesus......!

https://www.gotquestions.org/Ten-Commandments-New-Testament.html

FURTHER explanations again bolding and color changes are mine

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/should-christians-keep-the-sabbath

QuoteShould Christians Keep the Sabbath?

Article by Scott Hubbard
Editor, desiringGod.org

Of the Ten Commandments that God gave to Israel, perhaps none has provoked more controversy and debate than the fourth: "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy" (Exodus 20:8). Does the Sabbath commandment still hold today?

None of those who answer in the negative suggests the Sabbath was a second-tier command in the Decalogue, a good idea but not mandatory. No, the Sabbath served as the covenant sign between Israel and her God, unfolding a weekly drama that testified to God as mighty Creator (Exodus 20:11) and merciful Redeemer (Deuteronomy 5:15). On the Sabbath, Israel declared total dependence on her covenant Lord, a Lord more than able to uphold his people even though, for one day in seven, they hung up their shovels, laid aside their plows, and rested from their labors.

The question, then, is not whether Israel should have kept the Sabbath under the old covenant, but whether Christians should under the new. Should Christians keep the Sabbath? The question may sound nonsensical to some. We keep commandments one to three and five to ten, don't we? So why skip number four?

Yet strewn throughout the New Testament is telling evidence that, in Christ and the new covenant, the Sabbath has found its fulfillment.

Jesus: 'I will give you rest.'
Readers of the Gospels soon discover just how crucial the Sabbath was to the Jews of Jesus's day. The seventh day marks the setting of so many clashes between Jesus and the Pharisees that when we read something like, "Now it was a Sabbath day . . ." (John 9:14), we expect trouble.

Strictly speaking, the only commandments Jesus broke on the Sabbath belonged to Jewish tradition, not divine law. In their zeal to define exactly what a person could and could not do on the Sabbath, Jewish leaders laid on the people's backs a spiritual burden heavier than any physical burden (Matthew 23:4). Jesus attacked such traditions with the vehemence of one who saw more clearly than any that "the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27).

"Christ's first coming did not abolish rest; it ushered in a deeper kind of rest than the Sabbath could ever offer."

Yet even though Jesus never broke the fourth commandment, he did hint that a change to the Sabbath may be coming. If we could remove the chapter break between Matthew 11 and 12, we might notice, in the context immediately preceding the Sabbath controversies in Matthew 12:1–14, these arresting words: "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28). The rest offered on the Sabbath was now being offered in Christ.

A grand claim lies behind this grand promise: "The Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath" (Matthew 12:8). D.A. Carson writes,

That Jesus Christ is Lord of the Sabbath is not only a messianic claim of grand proportions, but it raises the possibility of a future change or reinterpretation of the Sabbath, in precisely the same way that His professed superiority over the Temple raises certain possibilities about ritual law. (From Sabbath to Lord's Day, 66)

In Jesus, something greater than the Sabbath is here.

Paul: 'Let no one pass judgment.'
Two passages in particular from the apostle Paul spell out the implications of Jesus's lordship over the Sabbath. The first is Colossians 2:16–17:

Let no one pass judgment on you in questions of
food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

"What Paul says here is remarkable," Tom Schreiner writes, "for he lumps the Sabbath together with food laws, festivals like Passover, and new moons. All of these constitute shadows that anticipate the coming of Christ" (40 Questions About Christians and Biblical Law, 212). And since Christ has now come, observing the Sabbath is no longer a matter of obedience or disobedience. Rather, Paul says, "Let no one pass judgment on you."

Romans 14:5 holds a similarly striking claim. Consider Paul's words here alongside a typical old-covenant statement about the Sabbath.

You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. (Exodus 31:14)

One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. (Romans 14:5)

If an old-covenant Israelite esteemed "all days alike," he might be stoned to death (Numbers 15:32–36). Yet Paul evidently felt no need to impose the Sabbath command on his Gentile converts. Some in Rome, it seems, wanted to keep the Sabbath (and so esteem "one day as better than another") — perhaps Jewish Christians eager to maintain the traditions of their fathers. Paul had no issue with those Christians, so long as they refrained from pressuring others to imitate them or suggested that salvation hinged on obedience to the Sabbath (compare Galatians 4:8–11).

For the sake of Christian freedom and mutual love, Paul says simply and remarkably, "Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind" (Romans 14:5).

Hebrews: 'We who have believed enter that rest.'
The author of Hebrews brings us closer to the heart of why the new covenant does not require a literal seventh-day rest. Christ's first coming did not abolish rest; rather, it ushered in a deeper kind of rest than the Sabbath could ever offer.


According to Hebrews 4, Israel's Sabbath day always pointed forward to a far greater day: the still-future day when all creation will enter fully into the rest foreshadowed and promised in Genesis 2:2–3, the very first seventh day. "So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God" (Hebrews 4:9). The ultimate Sabbath rest is coming, when God's people will enjoy work without toil, hearts without sin, and an earth without thorns.

Yet even now, Hebrews implies, we feel the first waves of the coming rest. In Christ, we "have [already] tasted . . . the powers of the age to come" (Hebrews 6:5), rest included. For, the author writes, "We who have believed enter that rest" (Hebrews 4:3) — not "will enter," but "enter": fully later, truly now.

And how do we enter that rest? Not mainly by putting aside our weekly labors for one day in seven, but by believing: "We who have believed enter that rest." Faith in Jesus Christ brings the rest of the seventh day into every day.

John: 'I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day.'
Of course, when Christians today speak of the Sabbath, they almost never mean the seventh day, but the first day: not Saturday but Sunday. But surprisingly, no New Testament writer ever refers to Sunday as the Sabbath. When Jewish (and perhaps some Gentile) Christians observed the Sabbath, they would have done so on Saturday, as Israel had done for centuries. But that doesn't mean Sunday held no special place in the early church. Scripture suggests that it did, only under a different name: the Lord's Day.

The phrase "the Lord's Day" appears only in Revelation, where the apostle John writes, "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day" (Revelation 1:10). But other passages suggest that "Lord's Day" simply put a name on the church's common practice of gathering on Sunday. In Ephesus, Paul met with the church "on the first day of the week . . . to break bread" (Acts 20:7). Likewise, Paul instructed the Corinthians to set aside some money "on the first day of every week" (1 Corinthians 16:2).

None of these passages shows the early church resting, as if they considered Sunday their new Sabbath. Richard Bauckham goes so far as to write, "For the earliest Christians it was not a substitute for the Sabbath nor a day of rest nor related in any way to the fourth commandment" (From Sabbath to Lord's Day, 240). The majority of these early Christians likely needed to work on the first day of the week. (Sunday was declared an official day of rest throughout the Roman Empire only under Constantine in AD 321.)

The passages do suggest, however, that Christians worshiped on the Lord's Day. Perhaps in the morning before work, perhaps in the evening afterward, the first believers gathered to praise the one who rose "very early on the first day of the week" (Mark 16:2; Matthew 28:1; Luke 24:1; John 20:19). When the stone rolled away from Jesus's tomb on Easter morning, true Sabbath rest arrived, and a new day dawned.

Lord of Our Days
So, should Christians keep the Sabbath?

"The world and the devil would have us work even while we rest. But Jesus would have us rest even while we work."
In one sense, no: under the new covenant, no Christian is bound to the fourth commandment as such. We may still decide to rest one day in seven — and indeed, wisdom seems to support the practice of imitating God's own 6-and-1 pattern (Genesis 1:1–2:3). Especially in a day when many can work anytime anywhere — answering emails after dinner, taking calls on the weekend — we may do well, even for one day in seven, to say, "I worked yesterday, I will work tomorrow, but today I rest and worship."

In another sense, however, Christians should keep the Sabbath always. And here we do find a connection between the Jewish Sabbath and the Christian Lord's Day. Andrew Lincoln writes,

In the Old Testament the literal physical rest of the Sabbath pointed to future rest; but since Christ has brought fulfillment in terms of salvation rest, it is the present enjoyment of this rest that acts as the foretaste of the consummation rest which is to come. In other words, it is the celebration on the Lord's Day of the rest we already have through Christ's resurrection that now anticipates and guarantees the rest that is yet to be. (From Sabbath to Lord's Day, 399)

Every Lord's Day, we come again to Jesus, weary and heavy laden (Matthew 11:28). We trace the shadow of the Sabbath to its substance (Colossians 2:17). We hear again in the distance the sounds of the future Sabbath festival; we glimpse again by faith the glow of "innumerable angels in festal gathering" (Hebrews 12:22). We look again into the empty tomb and hear Christ say, "Peace to you!" (Luke 24:36). In other words, we find rest — the kind of rest that remains long after Sunday has passed.

Without regularly experiencing this kind of rest — and with special power every Lord's Day — it matters little how much rest we give our bodies. Our rest will be restless, and our work will become a desperate attempt to secure for ourselves the rest that we have not found in Christ. Neither the sluggard (who works for the weekend) nor the workaholic (who has no weekend) has yet learned to enjoy the rest of the true Sabbath.

Not so with those who have heard and heeded Jesus's invitation to "Take my yoke upon you . . . and you will find rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:28–29). The world and the devil would have us work even while we rest. But Jesus would have us rest even while we work. And here, in this Christ-saturated resting and working, we live out the Sabbath today.

Cathlodox

The SDA's don't believe that the Sabbath Commandment is "ceremonial" - they believe in the inspiration of Ellen White which tells them the Sabbath is a "moral commandment".

The SDA's view Scripture through the Lense of Ellen White's book "The Great Controversy". This book provides a pre-earth origin story about how Lucifer became indignant with Flesh Father God after Flesh Father God exalted creature christ (AKA Michael the arcangel thereby allowing him to enter the secret councils of "God". Lucifer felt he was deserving of exaltation and was therefore slighted by this exaltation of Michael the archangel.

After Adam and Eve sinned Lucifer flew about the galaxy spreading misinformation about the Kingdom of God - Lucifer did this to alien civilizations living on other plants as well as to the heavenly host.

All this activity by Lucifer put Flesh Father into a sort of legal pickle whereby he started to look bad. Michael the archangel comes forward with a plan to come to earth and live as a man to prove that man can "keep God's holy law".

The outcome of this "controversy" between Michael and Lucifer was UNKNOWN and all heaven was on pins and needles wondering about the outcome. In fact Ellen White taught that after Jesus raised from the dead he didn't know if flesh father had accepted the sacrifice of his human body - Jesus wings his way to heaven to find out IF the flesh father had accepted his crucifixion event. Jesus upon hearing he had cut the mustard return to earth for his "2nd Coming".

Ellen White, Early Writings pages 187, 188 quoted also in the Youth Instructor 1852 -1952 centennial edition /
"Jesus quickly ascended to His Father to hear from His lips that He accepted the sacrifice, and to receive all power in heaven and upon earth.... The same day He returned, and showed Himself to His disciples. He suffered them then to touch Him ; for He had ascended to His Father, and had received power."-Early Writings, pp. 187, 188.

This is understood to be the proto investigative judgement Michael had to go through.

Part of the SDA Rubric is that the Sabbath is an eternal law - therefore it's observance is required perpetually. SDA's believe Noah observed the day of Saturn as the holy Sabbath to the Lord as did Enoch, Abraham, etc. - all the way back to Adam and Eve.

It's taught by Ellen White that in 1844 those who rejected the SDA 3rd angels message (to come out of Babylon) were marked by God for destruction - their prayers were directed to Lucifer who heard their prayers and breathed upon the unholy influence of Satan Himself - therefore the Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists are performing the will of Lucifer by trampling on God's holy Sabbath. The SDA's promulgate that Lucifer held a diabolical meeting in outer space where the plan was hatched to get the Pope to change the Sabbath from the day of Saturn to the day of the Sun (Sunday). It is believed by SDA's that eventually a "Sunday Law" will be passed globally and the Catholic Church (the great whore) will call her "daughters" (Protestants who rejected the 1844 SDA message) to attack the SDA's who are claimed to "keep the commandments of God and testimony of Jesus".

Therefore the Sabbath is a matter of eternal salvation.

Amo

Quote from: Rella on Tue May 28, 2024 - 08:28:58You were replying to my Got Questions link...

And I would reply that it would have been Jesus......!

https://www.gotquestions.org/Ten-Commandments-New-Testament.html

FURTHER explanations again bolding and color changes are mine

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/should-christians-keep-the-sabbath

Thanks for sharing more of who makes this stuff up, or tells us what the question should be I suppose, for those asking questions. No thanks, I'll think up and ask my own questions if this guy who makes these things up, doesn't mind. Or even if he or she does.

Nevertheless, no one questions the basic fact that there are Ten Commandments of God, not nine. All of which as so oft repeated, we are admonished to keep up to the last chapter and book of the bible. Even Catholics who have altered the commandments, still exhibit ten.

Quote"Christ's first coming did not abolish rest; it ushered in a deeper kind of rest than the Sabbath could ever offer."
Yet even though Jesus never broke the fourth commandment, he did hint that a change to the Sabbath may be coming. If we could remove the chapter break between Matthew 11 and 12, we might notice, in the context immediately preceding the Sabbath controversies in Matthew 12:1–14, these arresting words: "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28). The rest offered on the Sabbath was now being offered in Christ.

To the contrary, our Lord Jesus did not hint that the fourth commandment would be done away, He emphatically stated that He did not come to change the law. Nor would it change until heaven and earth passed. As so often quoted on these boards in Matthew 5:17-19. The people who make this stuff up can ignore those scriptures if they choose, but this does not make them go away. They are there, and they directly contradict the testimony of these people who make this stuff up.

Deu 12:10  But when ye go over Jordan, and dwell in the land which the LORD your God giveth you to inherit, and when he giveth you rest from all your enemies round about, so that ye dwell in safety;

Deu 25:19  Therefore it shall be, when the LORD thy God hath given thee rest from all thine enemies round about, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it, that thou shalt blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven; thou shalt not forget it.

Jos 1:13  Remember the word which Moses the servant of the LORD commanded you, saying, The LORD your God hath given you rest, and hath given you this land. 14 Your wives, your little ones, and your cattle, shall remain in the land which Moses gave you on this side Jordan; but ye shall pass before your brethren armed, all the mighty men of valour, and help them; 15 Until the LORD have given your brethren rest, as he hath given you, and they also have possessed the land which the LORD your God giveth them: then ye shall return unto the land of your possession, and enjoy it, which Moses the LORD'S servant gave you on this side Jordan toward the sunrising.

Jos 21:44  And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

Jos 22:4  And now the LORD your God hath given rest unto your brethren, as he promised them: therefore now return ye, and get you unto your tents, and unto the land of your possession, which Moses the servant of the LORD gave you on the other side Jordan.

1Ki 8:56  Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.

1Ch 23:25  For David said, The LORD God of Israel hath given rest unto his people, that they may dwell in Jerusalem for ever:

2Ch 14:7  Therefore he said unto Judah, Let us build these cities, and make about them walls, and towers, gates, and bars, while the land is yet before us; because we have sought the LORD our God, we have sought him, and he hath given us rest on every side. So they built and prospered.


God gave Israel rest many times over. This never meant that they should therefore no longer rest on His Sabbath. Nor does the NT declare such regarding God's Sabbath


Amo

Quote from: Cathlodox on Tue May 28, 2024 - 23:11:56The SDA's don't believe that the Sabbath Commandment is "ceremonial" - they believe in the inspiration of Ellen White which tells them the Sabbath is a "moral commandment".

The SDA's view Scripture through the Lense of Ellen White's book "The Great Controversy". This book provides a pre-earth origin story about how Lucifer became indignant with Flesh Father God after Flesh Father God exalted creature christ (AKA Michael the arcangel thereby allowing him to enter the secret councils of "God". Lucifer felt he was deserving of exaltation and was therefore slighted by this exaltation of Michael the archangel.

After Adam and Eve sinned Lucifer flew about the galaxy spreading misinformation about the Kingdom of God - Lucifer did this to alien civilizations living on other plants as well as to the heavenly host.

All this activity by Lucifer put Flesh Father into a sort of legal pickle whereby he started to look bad. Michael the archangel comes forward with a plan to come to earth and live as a man to prove that man can "keep God's holy law".

The outcome of this "controversy" between Michael and Lucifer was UNKNOWN and all heaven was on pins and needles wondering about the outcome. In fact Ellen White taught that after Jesus raised from the dead he didn't know if flesh father had accepted the sacrifice of his human body - Jesus wings his way to heaven to find out IF the flesh father had accepted his crucifixion event. Jesus upon hearing he had cut the mustard return to earth for his "2nd Coming".

Ellen White, Early Writings pages 187, 188 quoted also in the Youth Instructor 1852 -1952 centennial edition /
"Jesus quickly ascended to His Father to hear from His lips that He accepted the sacrifice, and to receive all power in heaven and upon earth.... The same day He returned, and showed Himself to His disciples. He suffered them then to touch Him ; for He had ascended to His Father, and had received power."-Early Writings, pp. 187, 188.

This is understood to be the proto investigative judgement Michael had to go through.

Part of the SDA Rubric is that the Sabbath is an eternal law - therefore it's observance is required perpetually. SDA's believe Noah observed the day of Saturn as the holy Sabbath to the Lord as did Enoch, Abraham, etc. - all the way back to Adam and Eve.

It's taught by Ellen White that in 1844 those who rejected the SDA 3rd angels message (to come out of Babylon) were marked by God for destruction - their prayers were directed to Lucifer who heard their prayers and breathed upon the unholy influence of Satan Himself - therefore the Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists are performing the will of Lucifer by trampling on God's holy Sabbath. The SDA's promulgate that Lucifer held a diabolical meeting in outer space where the plan was hatched to get the Pope to change the Sabbath from the day of Saturn to the day of the Sun (Sunday). It is believed by SDA's that eventually a "Sunday Law" will be passed globally and the Catholic Church (the great whore) will call her "daughters" (Protestants who rejected the 1844 SDA message) to attack the SDA's who are claimed to "keep the commandments of God and testimony of Jesus".

Therefore the Sabbath is a matter of eternal salvation.

More babbling from the Babylonian. EGW din't make the fourth commandment of God's Ten Commandments of the moral law, God and scripture did and do. You just reject this truth.

Cathlodox

QuoteAmo said: More babbling from the Babylonian. EGW din't make the fourth commandment of God's Ten Commandments of the moral law, God and scripture did and do. You just reject this truth.

According to Leviticus 23 (& common sense) it's ceremonial - someone would have to be instructed about the 7th day Sabbath to know about it, the same as the Day of Atonement or any of the other "feasts" of the Lord. These types of "commandments" are not informed by nature. But you know this just as you know Jesus said His words would never fail yet despite this clear instruction you promulgate the commandments of Ellen White when she gloated that Jesus might have or could have failed.

Amo

Quote from: Cathlodox on Fri May 31, 2024 - 19:32:49According to Leviticus 23 (& common sense) it's ceremonial - someone would have to be instructed about the 7th day Sabbath to know about it, the same as the Day of Atonement or any of the other "feasts" of the Lord. These types of "commandments" are not informed by nature. But you know this just as you know Jesus said His words would never fail yet despite this clear instruction you promulgate the commandments of Ellen White when she gloated that Jesus might have or could have failed.

No, the Ten Commandments are not part of ceremonial law, because a son of Babylon declares them to be so. In contradiction to the teachings of even his own proclaimed faith and denomination. Such is the course pursued by those who believe the end justifies the means.

Texas Conservative

Quote from: Amo on Sat Jun 08, 2024 - 08:51:10No, the Ten Commandments are not part of ceremonial law, because a son of Babylon declares them to be so. In contradiction to the teachings of even his own proclaimed faith and denomination. Such is the course pursued by those who believe the end justifies the means.

They are part of the ministry of death.  Why would you try to stay under the old covenant?

2 Corinthians 3:7-8
[7]But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
[8]how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

Cathlodox

Quote from: Amo on Sat Jun 08, 2024 - 08:51:10No, the Ten Commandments are not part of ceremonial law, because a son of Babylon declares them to be so. In contradiction to the teachings of even his own proclaimed faith and denomination. Such is the course pursued by those who believe the end justifies the means.

"The Law" is every commandment listed within the 1st 5 Books of the Bible.

SDA's promulgate something they call "THE TEN COMMANDMENT LAW" - this is dishonest and a twisting of Scripture. We know this because of Deut. 5 which explains in detail what happened at the Mountain with the Children of Israel.

Let's look at it in context and establish that what Texas Conservative said is in fact correct.

Deut 5
And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them. The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day. The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire, (I stood between the Lord and you at that time, to shew you the word of the Lord: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount;) saying,
 I am the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee. Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day. Honour thy father and thy mother, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee. Thou shalt not kill. Neither shalt thou commit adultery. Neither shalt thou steal. Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour. Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.  These words the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me. And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, even all the heads of your tribes, and your elders;
 And ye said, Behold, the Lord our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth. Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the Lord our God any more, then we shall die. For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?
Go thou near, and hear all that the Lord our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the Lord our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it. And the Lord heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the Lord said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken.
 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always
, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!30 Go say to them, Get you into your tents again.
31 But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it. 32 Ye shall observe to do therefore as the Lord your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left.33 Ye shall walk in all the ways which the Lord your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess
.

This plainly says that when the Children of Israel gathered around the Mountain Moses went up to talk to the Lord the people were so terrified at God speaking the commandments they begged for Moses to ask God to stop speaking and for God to give Moses the commandments and Moses would in turn tell them. The text says right there that God told Moses to tell the people to return to their tents and for Moses to stand fast so God could continue giving Moses the REST OF THE COMMANDMENTS.

Telling is the fact that Jesus said the two most important commandments are not in the 10 commandments!

Furthermore Leviticus 23 states that the Sabbath is a ceremonial commandment just like the other feasts of the Lord - these ceremonial commandments require specific instruction as man is not commanded by nature to observe them like we are command nature to not commit murder, steal, etc.

It's true that there are MORAL or NATURAL commandments within the ten commandments and rest of the law. The Moral law of God is eternal therefore the moral commandments are in force all the time whereas a ceremonial commandment is in force during specific times as ordained through the beggarly elements such as the Sun and Moon.

Claiming the Sabbath Commandment is Moral would be like claiming believing Sasquatch is moral and if you don't believe in Bigfoot you forfeit your eternal salvation.

Amo


Cathlodox

#63
Quote from: Amo on Sat Jun 08, 2024 - 12:26:28Babble on.

If you want to self-identify the unbreakable words of Christ as Babbling you can count on me posting more of Christ doing just that.

Amo

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Sat Jun 08, 2024 - 09:13:41They are part of the ministry of death.  Why would you try to stay under the old covenant?

2 Corinthians 3:7-8
[7]But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
[8]how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

Yes of course, the ministry of death which Moses and our Lord preached correct?

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Hmmmm. Imagine that, our Lord and Savior the actual minister of death, according to the gospel of Texas Conservative. Go to brother, preach your gospel.




Cathlodox

QuoteAmo said: Hmmmm. Imagine that, our Lord and Savior the actual minister of death, according to the gospel of Texas Conservative. Go to brother, preach your gospel.

The Law, according to scripture, was issued as a punishment for the stubborn Children of Israel. God's Moral laws are never a punishment but the ceremonial law absolutely were. The Sabbath being the 1st of all ceremonial laws, specifically enjoined onto Israel.

As I've shown readers at this forum before - Worshipping on the Sabbath to the exclusion of any other day demonstrates worship of the Flesh Hominid God; 'The Flesh Father'.

So says the Sabbath Herald March 7, 1854

If one only starts to worship on the Bible Sabbath they will be taught about the Sabbath god who stands in start contrast to the Trinity Sunday God.

Click on the following link and be taken to the SDA archives where you can read about the difference between the Sabbath god and the Sunday God.

 https://documents.adventistarchives.org/Periodicals/RH/RH18540307-V05-07.pdf#search=%22the%20Bible%20will%20teach%20of%20his%20personality%20and%20dwelling%20place%22


Rella

The perfect Sabbath for me and one that I am slowly striving to achieve starts at 6PM on Friday and enompasses all day Saturday and All day Sunday.

   ::readytoeat::   ::prayinghard::  ::sleepingsoundly:: 

Webster...
Sabbath
noun
Sab·�bath ˈsa-bəth
1
a
: the seventh day of the week observed from Friday evening to Saturday evening as a day of rest and worship by Jews and some Christians
b
: Sunday observed among Christians as a day of rest and worship
2
: a time of rest

Amo

Quote from: Cathlodox on Sat Jun 08, 2024 - 17:14:52The Law, according to scripture, was issued as a punishment for the stubborn Children of Israel. God's Moral laws are never a punishment but the ceremonial law absolutely were. The Sabbath being the 1st of all ceremonial laws, specifically enjoined onto Israel.

As I've shown readers at this forum before - Worshipping on the Sabbath to the exclusion of any other day demonstrates worship of the Flesh Hominid God; 'The Flesh Father'.

So says the Sabbath Herald March 7, 1854

If one only starts to worship on the Bible Sabbath they will be taught about the Sabbath god who stands in start contrast to the Trinity Sunday God.

Click on the following link and be taken to the SDA archives where you can read about the difference between the Sabbath god and the Sunday God.

 https://documents.adventistarchives.org/Periodicals/RH/RH18540307-V05-07.pdf#search=%22the%20Bible%20will%20teach%20of%20his%20personality%20and%20dwelling%20place%22

No end to your babble, gobbledygook, and nonsense. The purposes of God's Ten commandments, are quite clearly addressed in holy scripture. No one is dependent upon any other person to know the truths of this matter. Go to people, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Rom 3:19  Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Cathlodox

Quote from: Amo on Mon Jun 10, 2024 - 11:54:21No end to your babble, gobbledygook, and nonsense. The purposes of God's Ten commandments, are quite clearly addressed in holy scripture. No one is dependent upon any other person to know the truths of this matter. Go to people, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Rom 3:19  Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

If you had reading comprehension you wouldn't have quoted a text that makes my point for me. But I'll take it LOL!

Amo

Quote from: Cathlodox on Wed Jun 12, 2024 - 17:37:58If you had reading comprehension you wouldn't have quoted a text that makes my point for me. But I'll take it LOL!

Yes, I am sure you have twisted and turned my point within your own mind, to justify your own position. Just as you do continually out loud in your responses on these boards.

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