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How it all fell apart in Heaven according to Ellen White

Started by Cathlodox, Sat Jun 01, 2024 - 09:48:03

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Cathlodox

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Jun 10, 2024 - 09:15:45I believe that free will is a critical feature of being a human being.  Free will is the ability to choose to obey God.  Are you suggesting that Jesus did not possess that critical feature of being a human?  How then can it be that Jesus was human. Or perhaps you do not think free will is a critical characteristic of the human.I have no particular regard for the Nicene Creed or any other man-made creed.

If you can show me from scripture that your views in this matter are true, I would consider that.  But for any argument you want to make on any issue, please do not appeal to some man-made creed to prove your point.



Did Christ have free will?

I'm coming from the position that God can do anything except not be God - for God to commit any form of iniquity would default in God ceasing to be God.

Isaiah 35,4 says that God Himself would come AND would save. I'm unable to fabricate any hypothetical that would make a mockery of Isaiah 35, 4 or any of the other 150 explicit promises God made us in Scripture where God said failure in His work of salvation was impossible.

Of course, I believe we have "free will", like the angels we can choose the wrong and this is exactly my point - God NEVER chooses wrong and Scripture says God became man WITHOUT ceasing to be God.

Quote4WD said: I have no particular regard for the Nicene Creed or any other man-made creed.

The salient part of the Creed pertaining to this topic is simply that everything Jesus did, from His birth on earth to every single thing He did and didn't do (sin) was "ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES".

If Scripture tells us anything it's that God keeps His Word and that it never fails to exactly accomplish what God purposed it to do. Below are a few Scriptures representative of what I'm saying.

Isaiah 55, 10 -
Proverbs 30, 5-
Psalm 33, 8
Psalm 118, 89
Matthew 24, 35
Mark 13, 31

&
God really does know the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46, 9)

Building on the promise that God's Word is absolute here is what God said about how things would end up.

Acts 2, 22 - 30 (God swore an oath?)
Daniel 2, 44 - (God told Daniel and the King what would absolutely take place)
Isaiah 42, 1 (would not fail until judgement is set on the earth)

Jesus, in over 100 places in the Gospels makes statements about what WILL HAPPEN at His 2nd Coming - Jesus makes this matter-of-fact promises long prior to His death on the Cross.

Matthew 7,22
Matthew 12, 41 -42
Matthew 16, 27 -28
Matthew 24, 30
Matthew 25, 31

In particular Luke 24, 25 - says very clearly it is foolish not to believe what Jesus and the Prophets said about Him.

Back to Acts 2, 22 - 24 we are told it was IMPOSSIBLE Christ could fail.

I've noted over 150 places in Scripture where it's said there could be no possibility of failure of Christ and given THAT was the most important thing to impart of the Gospel according to 1 Corinthians  15 I'd say its a safe place to be when one rests in the knowledge that Christ was the eternal purpose of God that was revealed when the fullness of time came.

I have much, much more to share about this but alas I have to head to work.

Appreciate the questions 4WD!


4WD

Quote from: Cathlodox on Mon Jun 10, 2024 - 09:50:51Did Christ have free will?

I'm coming from the position that God can do anything except not be God - for God to commit any form of iniquity would default in God ceasing to be God.


I have much, much more to share about this but alas I have to head to work.

Appreciate the questions 4WD!


Prophecy and everything said prophetically about Jesus is based upon God's foreknowledge which is not causative. Is God's perfect behavior not His choice?  I think it is.  It is just that His choice is perfect.

You often hear it said that God can't lie, or that God can't do evil.  I think that is not precisely true.  I think that such things are God's choice.  I think that He doesn't want to and therefore doesn't.  Maybe that is nit-picking, but I don't think so.

Does He love us because He has no other choice?  Does He save repentant believers because He has no choice?

John 3:16  "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Was that because He really had no choice in the matter?   

So then, did Jesus not sin because He had no choice?  I don't think so.  I truly believe that He did not sin because He did not want to.  That is the same for us.  We will keep from sinning only when and because we really do not want to.

Cathlodox

Quote4WD said: Prophecy and everything said prophetically about Jesus is based upon God's foreknowledge which is not causative. Is God's perfect behavior not His choice?  I think it is.  It is just that His choice is perfect.

God's purpose IS causative.

Job 36, 5
God is mighty, but despises no one; he is mighty, and firm in his purpose.

4WD, are we not told explicitly that Christ was God's purpose????



Job 42, 2
"I know that you can do all things; no purpose of yours can be thwarted."

Hebrews 6, 16 - 18
Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath.

Isaiah 14, 24
he Lord Almighty has sworn, "Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will happen.

Quote4WD said: ou often hear it said that God can't lie, or that God can't do evil.  I think that is not precisely true.  I think that such things are God's choice.  I think that He doesn't want to and therefore doesn't.  Maybe that is nit-picking, but I don't think so.

That's not the God of Scripture as the God of Scripture CANNOT lie, will not do iniquity, etc.

Titus 1, 2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Scripture tells us why.

James 1, 13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

God will NEVER fall short of being perfectly Holy because God CAN'T fall short of being perfectly Holy.

I can appreciate the predicament Seventh-day Adventists find themselves in here - Scripture says God can't sin, that Christ would not fail which flys in the face of Ellen White saying God could sin, That He could have failed. We can see who is favored above the other in this topic.

Quote4WD said: Does He love us because He has no other choice?  Does He save repentant believers because He has no choice?

God recklessly loved / loves us - magnify the love a human parent has for their children and multiply that love beyond calculation.

Quote4WD said: So then, did Jesus not sin because He had no choice?  I don't think so.  I truly believe that He did not sin because He did not want to.  That is the same for us.  We will keep from sinning only when and because we really do not want to.

God is incapable of Sin 4WD, He cannot sin. We were told in the Old Testament that God Himself would eventually come and would save us - this leaves zero room for any hypothetical that doesn't align with Scripture. This is why Jesus spent time trying to Educate His Apostles that eternally there could ONLY BE ONE OUTCOME - Christ's victory.

We know from the historical record that Arius taught that Christ could have sinned and lost His salvation - this is the primary argument that all non-Trinitarians use to say Jesus wasn't / isn't God Almighty. It's an old worn out argument that the Christian faith has gotten used to combating.

4WD, I appreciate the back and forth here, your questions are good.

I find myself wondering if you are an Adventist (JW, Christadelphian, SDA, WWCOG). I ask this because I know after confirming that Baptists, Lutheran's, Methodists, Presbyterians, Nazarene's, Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox, Catholic all reject the teaching that Christ was peccable as HERESY. This is why I ask you this question.

4WD

Quote from: Cathlodox on Mon Jun 10, 2024 - 17:27:50God's purpose IS causative.
God knew that Adam would disobey.  Was Adam's disobedience God's purpose?  You need to be very careful with your assignment of God's purpose.  God knew that the citizens of Sodom and Gomora would do as they did.  Was that God's purpose?  You are very close to talking like a determinist.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Mon Jun 10, 2024 - 17:27:504WD, are we not told explicitly that Christ was God's purpose???
Christ was/is God.  Was His sacrifice not a choice? Was not the whole creation God's choice?

Quote from: Cathlodox on Mon Jun 10, 2024 - 17:27:50Hebrews 6, 16 - 18
Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath.

Isaiah 14, 24
he Lord Almighty has sworn, "Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will happen.
It was God's purpose that Jesus would die on the cross; and He did.

Mat 26:1  When Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said to his disciples,
Mat 26:2  "You know that after two days the Passover is coming, and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified."
Mat 26:3  Then the chief priests and the elders of the people gathered in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas,
Mat 26:4  and plotted together in order to arrest Jesus by stealth and kill him.


Clearly, the plot of the chief priests and the elders and Caiaphas was instrumental in Jesus going to the cross. Jesus going to the cross was indeed God's purpose.  Was the plotting by the chief priests, the elders and Caiaphas God's purpose?  I do not believe so. God simply took advantage of what He foreknew would happen. I think you answered that, perhaps not realizing it, in your reference of James 1:13. God tempts no man.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Mon Jun 10, 2024 - 17:27:50That's not the God of Scripture as the God of Scripture CANNOT lie, will not do iniquity, etc.

Titus 1, 2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

(ESV) Titus 1:2  in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began

That is indeed true.  But is that because there is some external force or cause preventing God from lying?  I do not think so.  I think that is God's choice.

When God created man in Adam and Eve, He created them in His own image. An essential feature of that creation that makes man different from the rest of the animal kingdom is free will, the ability to choose to obey or disobey. I believe choice is a feature of mankind that is very much in the image of God. It is man's spirit that also sets him apart from the rest of the animal  kingdom. It is in man's spirit that he has free will, that he can choose to obey.  Man's free will choice is in the image of God.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Mon Jun 10, 2024 - 17:27:50God will NEVER fall short of being perfectly Holy because God CAN'T fall short of being perfectly Holy.
You say that as if there is a limit placed upon God. I say God will never fall short of being perfectly Holy simply because God doesn't want to.  He is perfectly Holy because He wants to be perfectly Holy.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Mon Jun 10, 2024 - 17:27:50God recklessly loved / loves us - magnify the love a human parent has for their children and multiply that love beyond calculation.

God is incapable of Sin 4WD, He cannot sin. We were told in the Old Testament that God Himself would eventually come and would save us - this leaves zero room for any hypothetical that doesn't align with Scripture. This is why Jesus spent time trying to Educate His Apostles that eternally there could ONLY BE ONE OUTCOME - Christ's victory.
You are mixing God's predestination with foreknowledge again.  That is one of the major sins of the Calvinist theology.  It is the fallacy of the determinist.  Too many Christians seem unable to keep those two separated.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Mon Jun 10, 2024 - 17:27:504WD, I appreciate the back and forth here, your questions are good.

I find myself wondering if you are an Adventist (JW, Christadelphian, SDA, WWCOG). I ask this because I know after confirming that Baptists, Lutheran's, Methodists, Presbyterians, Nazarene's, Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox, Catholic all reject the teaching that Christ was peccable as HERESY. This is why I ask you this question.
I am none of those; either of those you consider wrong or bad or those you consider correct or good. What I am I will leave for another day.

If there was some reason that Jesus could not sin other than His own choice to not sin, then Satan, in his temptations of Jesus in His forty days in the wilderness, is not nearly as smart, knowledgeable and wise as we have been led to believe. 

And most of all, if Jesus' not sinning is by any means other than  His not wanting to sin, His choice not to sin, then it does not serve as any useful example for the Christian in trying to live righteously as directed.

Cathlodox

Quote4WD said: God knew that Adam would disobey.  Was Adam's disobedience God's purpose?  You need to be very careful with your assignment of God's purpose.

Yes, Scripture states that God knew that Adam and Eve would disobey, just like Scripture states that those who would be saved would be saved in Christ Jesus, who was foreordained before the earth was even created. I'd caution you to be very careful with assigning hypothetical outcomes to what God through the real prophets, angels told you would absolutely happen.

Quote4WD said: Christ was/is God.  Was His sacrifice not a choice? Was not the whole creation God's choice?

God Himself made that choice to sacrifice Himself - God also told us what would happen before it would happen. Remember, God knows the end from the beginning and God made it really clear as to how things would end up - that's what this discussion is all about.

Quote4WD said: That is indeed true.  But is that because there is some external force or cause preventing God from lying?  I do not think so.  I think that is God's choice.

Scripture says God works out all things to conform to the purpose of His will. My friend, you are FIGHTING Scripture.

Ephesians 1,10
to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out EVERYTHING in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory

The Gospels makes clear that God never stopped working MAKING everything work out in conformity with His Purpose. Even if I were, for the sake of argument AGREE with you (which I don't) that God could choose iniquity God had already told us that in eternity He wouldn't - what kind of Doctrine is it that boasts God COULD HAVE FAILED??? This is the elephant in the room 4WD.

Quote4WD said: You are mixing God's predestination with foreknowledge again.  That is one of the major sins of the Calvinist theology.  It is the fallacy of the determinist.  Too many Christians seem unable to keep those two separated.

If God's predestined purpose (outcome) is "X" we are told that God works out EVERYTHING to be in conformity of that outcome. God is NOT CONDITIONAL 4WD and it seems like you are arguing that God is conditional. This has nothing to do with Calvinism and his TULIP rubrics.

Quote4WD said: I am none of those; either of those you consider wrong or bad or those you consider correct or good. What I am I will leave for another day.

You are not or have been a member of any Adventist group yet have Arian beliefs. Ok, I can work with that. Were you formally a member of a Creedal Church?

4WD

Quote from: Cathlodox on Tue Jun 11, 2024 - 09:21:04Yes, Scripture states that God knew that Adam and Eve would disobey, just like Scripture states that those who would be saved would be saved in Christ Jesus, who was foreordained before the earth was even created.
God said that His predestination is based upon His foreknowledge: Rom 8:29  For those whom he foreknew he also predestined......

Quote from: Cathlodox on Tue Jun 11, 2024 - 09:21:04I'd caution you to be very careful with assigning hypothetical outcomes to what God through the real prophets, angels told you would absolutely happen.
What hypothetical outcomes?

Quote from: Cathlodox on Tue Jun 11, 2024 - 09:21:04God Himself made that choice to sacrifice Himself - God also told us what would happen before it would happen. Remember, God knows the end from the beginning and God made it really clear as to how things would end up - that's what this discussion is all about.
So then, God could have made the choice not to sacrifice Himself for us?

Yes, His foreknowledge is perfect.  It is complete even for all things that He did not cause and very little of any of it is what He caused. Most of it is caused by us.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Tue Jun 11, 2024 - 09:21:04Scripture says God works out all things to conform to the purpose of His will. My friend, you are FIGHTING Scripture.
God works things out to conform to His purpose, but that does not mean that He causes everything that happens in arriving at that purpose.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Tue Jun 11, 2024 - 09:21:04The Gospels makes clear that God never stopped working MAKING everything work out in conformity with His Purpose. Even if I were, for the sake of argument AGREE with you (which I don't) that God could choose iniquity God had already told us that in eternity He wouldn't - what kind of Doctrine is it that boasts God COULD HAVE FAILED??? This is the elephant in the room 4WD.
If God chose to do it, it would not be a failure; it would not be iniquity. What kind of doctrine is it that says that God is not free to do anything He chooses to do?  Which would you prefer, that God chose to love you or that God, for one reason or another, could not do otherwise.

The important thing here for us is that we have the choice to sin or not to sin.  I believe that was fully demonstrated by Christ throughout His life.  He did not sin. He is our example.  If that was not a choice for Him, then He is not an example for us. Ours is a life of choices.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Tue Jun 11, 2024 - 09:21:04If God's predestined purpose (outcome) is "X" we are told that God works out EVERYTHING to be in conformity of that outcome. God is NOT CONDITIONAL 4WD and it seems like you are arguing that God is conditional. This has nothing to do with Calvinism and his TULIP rubrics.
It is the end which is not conditional. Most of what happens leading up to that end is indeed conditional.  If not then everything is determined and it isn't.  Determinism is wrong.  Determinism does indeed have to do with Calvinism. It is the essence of the Calvinist soteriology. It is the very basis of election and reprobation.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Tue Jun 11, 2024 - 09:21:04You are not or have been a member of any Adventist group yet have Arian beliefs.
The central theme of the Arian belief, I think, is that God created Jesus. I do not believe that in way, shape or form.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Tue Jun 11, 2024 - 09:21:04Ok, I can work with that. Were you formally a member of a Creedal Church?
I am not now nor have I ever been an adherent of any man-made creed.

Cathlodox

Quote4WD said: God said that His predestination is based upon His foreknowledge: Rom 8:29  For those whom he foreknew he also predestined......

God knows "the end from the beginning". My argument simply is God knew how the plan of salvation would terminate, and God transmitted that absolute to us through Sacred Scripture long before God Incarnated. Any hypothetical deviation from that terminus (which God swore by Himself) comes from an entity OTHER THAN GOD. It's really quite simple. 

Quote4WD said: What hypothetical outcomes?

The hypothetical outcome that Arius, Ellen White and other Adventist groups promulgated. In the case of SDAism:

QuoteSigns of the Time April 2, 1940
It is VITAL for every Christian TO KNOW that Jesus Christ MIGHT have sinned. The Master was not beyond the clutches of temptation. The Heaven-sent Gift could have been eternally lost and the doom of humanity would have been eternally sealed. Jesus Christ knew the pull of evil. "In that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted."


QuoteSigns of the Times Prophetic weekly 1933, Volume 60 No. 4
TO RESTORE MEN

God's plan of salvation was to reclaim a lost, bewildered world. Sin had degraded men, until vice had become a science and every type of evil was incorporated into the mind of man. When the heathen world had run its course of iniquity, when paganism and idolatry had engrossed the world, God sent forth His Son according to the plan, to restore men's rightful heritage as "sons of God." Jesus Christ took upon Himself the weakness, the tendencies, toward sin, that He might prove Himself a brother to His fellow men. His divine glory was hidden in humanity. "He took on Him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people." Hebrews 2:16, 17. There was the danger of eternal loss in the plan. Jesus Christ MIGHT have sinned and the human race been lost. For He was tempted. He could have sinned!

QuoteEllen White
Because of sin, his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen

QuoteEllen White
The new tomb enclosed Him in its rocky chambers. If one single sin had tainted His character the stone would never have been rolled away from the door of His rocky chamber, and the world with its burden of guilt would have perished

QuoteEllen White
Could Satan in the least particular have tempted Christ to sin, he would have bruised the Saviour's head. As it was, he could only touch His heel. Had the head of Christ been touched, the hope of the human race would have perished. Divine wrath would have come upon Christ as it came upon Adam. Christ and the church would have been without hope." Selected Messages Book 1 page 256)

Ellen White promulgated that Salvation hinged on Christ cutting the mustard, she (along with Arius) taught that Christ "COULD HAVE SINNED" & had that happened the real God would have made a quick end of Christ. This is Luciferian teaching flat out.

Quote4WD said: So then, God could have made the choice not to sacrifice Himself for us?

God was NOT under a moral obligation to save humanity - God did this out of reckless love for His creation.

Quote4WD said: Yes, His foreknowledge is perfect.  It is complete even for all things that He did not cause and very little of any of it is what He caused. Most of it is caused by us.

I agree with you here, we are disordered creatures born with original sin. God's foreknowledge is absolutely perfect - God, as far as the ultimate ending of salvation TOLD US specifically how it would end. This has been my point.

Daniel 2, 44
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

God sets up a Kingdom that will stand for eternity, a rock hewn without hands does this - what Daniel tells the king is what God told him to tell him - "The Great God hath made known to the king WHAT SHALL COME TO PASS AFTER - this information is absolute.

Arians always claim Daniel's prophecy was CONDITIONAL on the Christ becoming the Christ - Scripture says Christ was slain before the earth was created = He was the Christ in eternity.

Quote4WD said: If God chose to do it, it would not be a failure; it would not be iniquity. What kind of doctrine is it that says that God is not free to do anything He chooses to do?  Which would you prefer, that God chose to love you or that God, for one reason or another, could not do otherwise.

If Christ stole stuff, committed murders, slept with every prostitute in Jerusalem He would have SINNED making Himself out to be a liar. You ask what kind of Doctrine is it that says God cannot fail and delivers exactly what He promises IS A ROCK-SOLID CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE.

Quote4WD said:The important thing here for us is that we have the choice to sin or not to sin.  I believe that was fully demonstrated by Christ throughout His life.  He did not sin. He is our example.  If that was not a choice for Him, then He is not an example for us. Ours is a life of choices.

You may believe that to treat Aids a medical Doctor needs to become gay and get infected with HIV to really treat aids - I do not share your view, precisely because it's contrary to Scripture.

Quote4WD said: It is the end which is not conditional

That's what I keep saying THE END was NOT conditional - this leaves you with a choice, either God had multiple Christ's lined up in the pipeline to throw at earth to "try" OR Christ was truly God's ONLY Son who "would come & would save us".

Quote4WD said: Most of what happens leading up to that end is indeed conditional.  If not then everything is determined and it isn't.  Determinism is wrong.  Determinism does indeed have to do with Calvinism. It is the essence of the Calvinist soteriology. It is the very basis of election and reprobation.

Any deviation from Christ being anything less than the perfect sacrifice would not have fulfilled what the Law, the Prophets & the Psalms required. This is case closed 4WD. 

Quote4WD said: The central theme of the Arian belief, I think, is that God created Jesus. I do not believe that in way, shape or form.

Arians also believed that Christ could have sinned and lost His salvation, it was an important enough Arian doctrine to be included in the Canons of Nicaea which was why it was addressed the belief anathematized.

Quote4WD said: I am not now nor have I ever been an adherent of any man-made creed.

It's apparent you don't believe ecumenical councils (Like Acts 15 and subsequent ones have any authority). This is not a point I'd argue with you as I fully agree, you don't adhere to the Nicene Creed. 

4WD

Quote from: Cathlodox on Tue Jun 11, 2024 - 19:57:35Ellen White promulgated that Salvation hinged on Christ cutting the mustard, she (along with Arius) taught that Christ "COULD HAVE SINNED" & had that happened the real God would have made a quick end of Christ. This is Luciferian teaching flat out.
That Christ could have sinned does not suggest anything beyond that possibility.  Because in God's foreknowledge He knew what choice Jesus would make. That is the end of the story.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Tue Jun 11, 2024 - 19:57:35I agree with you here, we are disordered creatures born with original sin.
I do not agree with the doctrine of Original Sin.  It is false. I have discussed that here before.  I can do that again if you like, but that probably belongs in a separate thread.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Tue Jun 11, 2024 - 19:57:35Arians always claim Daniel's prophecy was CONDITIONAL on the Christ becoming the Christ - Scripture says Christ was slain before the earth was created = He was the Christ in eternity.
I don't really care what Arians think.  And where does scripture say that Christ was slain before the earth was created. The pre-incarnate Jesus could not be slain. He took on the physical body of the human being for the very purpose of being physically sacrificed on the cross. God is Spirit. Holy Spirit is Spirit. The pre-incarnate Jesus was Spirit. Jesus is once again Spirit.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Tue Jun 11, 2024 - 19:57:35If Christ stole stuff, committed murders, slept with every prostitute in Jerusalem He would have SINNED making Himself out to be a liar. You ask what kind of Doctrine is it that says God cannot fail and delivers exactly what He promises IS A ROCK-SOLID CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE.
The truth is that He didn't. That is a rock-solid Christian FACT.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Tue Jun 11, 2024 - 19:57:35You may believe that to treat Aids a medical Doctor needs to become gay and get infected with HIV to really treat aids - I do not share your view, precisely because it's contrary to Scripture.
There is no statement in Scripture that says that Jesus could not sin.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Tue Jun 11, 2024 - 19:57:35Any deviation from Christ being anything less than the perfect sacrifice would not have fulfilled what the Law, the Prophets & the Psalms required. This is case closed 4WD.
The case is closed because He wasn't less than perfect and God foreknew that He wouldn't be less than perfect.  But it does not logically follow from that fact that it would have been impossible for Jesus to sin. Things which God foreknows are indeed absolutely certain.  But they are not certain because He foreknows them. God's foreknowledge is not causative. The is the mistake that Calvinists make.  If you are saved, God foreknew that you would be.  But that is because you made the right choice not because God foreknew it.


Quote from: Cathlodox on Tue Jun 11, 2024 - 19:57:35Arians also believed that Christ could have sinned and lost His salvation, it was an important enough Arian doctrine to be included in the Canons of Nicaea which was why it was addressed the belief anathematized.
As I said before, I really don't care what Arians believe.  And I also really don't care what came out of the Council of Nicaea or any other man-decreed councils.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Tue Jun 11, 2024 - 19:57:35It's apparent you don't believe ecumenical councils (Like Acts 15 and subsequent ones have any authority). This is not a point I'd argue with you as I fully agree, you don't adhere to the Nicene Creed.
I do indeed believe what came out of the council recorded in Acts 15. That, by the fact that God recorded and acknowledged it in His written word legitimizes and authorizes it.  But whatever came out of councils not recorded by God as legitimate are nothing more than one more man-made statement. If God, by the prophets and apostles through the Holy Spirit, didn't teach it, then it has no theological authority. It may be correct, but it has, and of itself, no authority.

Cathlodox

Quote4WD said: That Christ could have sinned does not suggest anything beyond that possibility.  Because in God's foreknowledge He knew what choice Jesus would make. That is the end of the story.

If Christ sinning was a possibility AND that possibility was actualized it would affect a great deal beyond that possibility. Consider the Babylon King's inspired comments about the God of Israel.

"His dominion is an eternal dominion; his kingdom endures from generation to generation. All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand [except Lucifer who has the possibility to cause God to fail] or say to him: "What have you done?"

I added your rubric so you can sort out "what changed".

Quote4WD said: I do not agree with the doctrine of Original Sin.  It is false. I have discussed that here before.  I can do that again if you like, but that probably belongs in a separate thread.

This doesn't surprise me.

Quote4WD said: I don't really care what Arians think.

Obviously that's not true, you are articulating Arianism.

Quote4WD said: And where does scripture say that Christ was slain before the earth was created.

1st Peter 1, 20
For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Revelation 13, 8

Etc....

Jesus is not "once again Spirit" 4WD, again you are parroting Adventist beliefs - of the Jehovah's witness variety.

Quote4WD said: The case is closed because He wasn't less than perfect and God foreknew that He wouldn't be less than perfect.  But it does not logically follow from that fact that it would have been impossible for Jesus to sin. Things which God foreknows are indeed absolutely certain.  But they are not certain because He foreknows them.

If God's foreknowledge is an absolute certainty and God communicates that certainty to you - as Christ said IT IS FOOLISH to hypothesize anything other than the certainty which God communicated to you. Jesus directly spoke to this.

Luke 24, 25 -45

You should really commit that to memory

Quote4WD said: The truth is that He didn't. That is a rock-solid Christian FACT.

God said He WOULDN'T which defaults into the simple fact HE COULDN'T..

Quote4WD said: There is no statement in Scripture that says that Jesus could not sin.

Isaiah 53 and a host of other Scriptures say exactly that.


4WD

Quote from: Cathlodox on Wed Jun 12, 2024 - 15:19:30God said He WOULDN'T which defaults into the simple fact HE COULDN'T..
That about sums up your argument.  You lose.

Sorry Cathlodox, that is not true. Moreover, that is not even logically correct. But I suppose it is good enough for a Catholic; what could possibly go wrong in not knowing the difference between the meaning of the words would and could.  Sort of like not knowing the difference between the meaning of the words immerse, dip and pour. ::smile::

Cathlodox

Quote from: 4WD on Thu Jun 13, 2024 - 05:14:10That about sums up your argument.  You lose.

Sorry Cathlodox, that is not true. Moreover, that is not even logically correct. But I suppose it is good enough for a Catholic; what could possibly go wrong in not knowing the difference between the meaning of the words would and could.  Sort of like not knowing the difference between the meaning of the words immerse, dip and pour. ::smile::


LOL!

God, who knows the end from the beginning tells you He can't sin, can't fail and will absolutely succeed to provide salvation.

Instead of taking the Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant position that God can't fail, sin or eternally cease to exist you follow Arius' teachings that God actually can fail to live up to the attributes of God, sin and eternally cease to exist.

I'm afraid you loose. I'm truly sorry for this. At least you can take solace in knowing that you stand with Adventist groups that Jesus isn't God.

Amo

Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

God is not bound in any way, shape, our form, by humanity. He can change His mind about any prophetic utterance He has made through His prophets, based upon humanities own actions or choices regarding Him and His word. We are all deserving of death, and unfit to be a part of His kingdom. By His grace alone are we saved. He owes us nothing, and we owe Him everything we are or will ever be. If He chose to do so, He would be completely justified in turning His back upon humanity. For we have surely not repented and turned from evil as the Lord has desired and commanded.

He is in no way beholden to us, but by the grace of His pure and holy nature, while we are 100% beholden to Him. He has never been, is not, and never will be confined within the box of fallen humanities extremely limited observations, speculations, or declarations concerning His being, nature, or responsibility toward us. I say again according to his own testimony quoted above, He owes us nothing, we owe Him everything.

Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.


Amo

QuoteLOL!

God, who knows the end from the beginning tells you He can't sin, can't fail and will absolutely succeed to provide salvation.

Instead of taking the Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant position that God can't fail, sin or eternally cease to exist you follow Arius' teachings that God actually can fail to live up to the attributes of God, sin and eternally cease to exist.

I'm afraid you loose. I'm truly sorry for this. At least you can take solace in knowing that you stand with Adventist groups that Jesus isn't God.

Who said anything about God dying? It was always and only humanity that would die, had Christ given into temptation. It was our salvation and existence that was at risk, not God's. He came to save us, not Himself. He became one of us for our salvation, not another God, or angel, or being incapable of sinning. Which is exactly what scripture teaches us, which you refuse.

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


You are not arguing with people Cathlodox, you are arguing with holy scripture.

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