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Giants

Started by Amo, Sat May 11, 2019 - 12:21:57

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Amo


Amo

#421
QuoteSo it may come as a surprise to some contemporary conservatives that some of the great stalwarts of the faith were not convinced of this interpretation.

Augustine, writing in the early fifth century, noted, "What kind of days these were it is extremely difficult, or perhaps impossible, to determine" (City of God 11.7).

I will look for this statement in the context it was written. I am always leery of quotes which are not even one sentence long. The following quote is also claimed to be from Augustine, revealing the limits of his wisdom apparently.

Quote"It is, indeed, better that men should be brought to serve God by instruction than by fear of punishment or by pain. But because the former means are better, the latter must not therefore be neglected.... Many must often be brought back to their Lord, like wicked servants, by the rod of temporal suffering, before they attain the highest grade of religious development." — Augustine.

Apart from this, the following quotes are from the complete article which may be viewed at the link below, and above the quotes themselves. Emphasis is mine.

https://answersingenesis.org/days-of-creation/augustine-on-the-days-of-creation/

QuoteWhat Did Augustine Believe?

There are several problems with this view. To begin with, during the years AD 389-417, Augustine wrote three commentaries on Genesis and discussed the early chapters of Genesis in The City of God. His thinking changed in some ways in the process, and his writings are confusing, even somewhat contradictory, at points. Over the years he fluctuated between allegorical interpretations and literal views.1 But there is plenty of evidence that Augustine wasn't an old-earther. Rather, he believed that God created everything in an instant and that He described it for us as being completed in six normal days for the sake of our understanding. He wrote,

"Perhaps we ought not to think of these creatures at the moment they were produced as subject to the processes of nature which we now observe in them, but rather as under the wonderful and unutterable power of the Wisdom of God, which reaches from end to end mightily and governs all graciously. For this power of Divine Wisdom does not reach by stages or arrive by steps. It was just as easy, then, for God to create everything as it is for Wisdom to exercise this mighty power. For through Wisdom all things were made, and the motion we now see in creatures, measured by the lapse of time, as each one fulfills its proper function, comes to creatures from those causal reasons implanted in them, which God scattered as seeds at the moment of creation when He spoke and they were made, He commanded and they were created. Creation, therefore, did not take place slowly in order that a slow development might be implanted in those things that are slow by nature; nor were the ages established at plodding pace at which they now pass. Time brings about the development of these creatures according to the laws of their numbers, but there was no passage of time when they received these laws at creation."2

Furthermore, Augustine believed the genealogies given in Genesis to be literal chronologies and that the pre-Flood patriarchs lived to be around 900 years.3 He also stated, "Unbelievers are also deceived by false documents which ascribe to history many thousand years, although we can calculate from Sacred Scripture that not 6,000 years have passed since the creation of man."4

Since Augustine believed that the original creation happened in an instant of time, there is no basis for thinking that he believed millions of years of time transpired before Adam.

Furthermore, Augustine believed that Genesis 6–8 describes a global Flood. Once again, this distinguishes him from old-earthers like Hugh Ross who believe the Flood was a local catastrophe in the Mesopotamian Valley (modern-day Iraq). Augustine spent five pages answering skeptical objections about the Flood covering all the highest mountains, the Ark being big enough, Noah having the ability to build it, and the feeding of carnivorous animals on the Ark.5


Some claim that Augustine and other Christians of the past only believed in a recent creation and a global Flood because they didn't have contemporary old-earth and evolutionary theories to consider. (Indeed, some throw out the origins beliefs of all pre-19th-century Christians on these grounds.) Yet, early-20th-century evolutionist Henry Fairfield Osborn, director of the American Museum of Natural History, wrote the following:

"When I began the search for anticipations of the evolutionary theory . . . I was led back to the Greek natural philosophers and I was astonished to find how many of the pronounced and basic features of the Darwinian theory were anticipated even as far back as the seventh century BC."6

Augustine therefore had alternative "scientific" theories about earth history in his cultural context, but he refused to merge Scripture with such ideas.

"Even then the chronologies of Greek and Egyptian history do not agree; and since the former does not exceed the true number [of the duration of the world] implied in our Sacred Scripture, it may be accepted. Consequently, if this letter of Alexander [the Great] now so well known, is so far from authentic in its chronology, we can trust still less those other [pagan] documents, so full of mythology, which are cited in opposition to the established authority of inspired writings. The fact of the prediction that the whole world would believe and the fact that it has believed should prove that Sacred Scripture has given a true account of the past. Certainly, much that was predicted has been perfectly fulfilled."7

In fact, he very specifically rejected the old-earth theories of some of his contemporaries, describing them in ways reminiscent of the uniformitarian and catastrophist theories of the 19th century:

"I shall not dwell, then on the conjectures of men who "know not what they say" concerning the nature and origin of the human race. There are, for example, those who hold the opinion that men—like the universe—have always existed. . . . Suppose the following questions are put to these men: If the human race has always existed, how, then do you vindicate the truth of your own history which records the names of inventors and what they invented, the first founders of liberal education and of other arts, the first inhabitants of this or that region and of this or that island? They will answer that at certain intervals of time, most of the land was so devastated by floods and fire that the human race was greatly reduced in size and that from this small number the former population was again restored; and that, thus, at intervals, there was a new discovery and organization of all these things, or, rather a restoration of what had been damaged or destroyed by the great devastations; and that, in any case, men could simply not exist unless they were produced from man. Of course, all this is opinion, not science."8

Thus, Augustine clearly had old-earth views to contend with in his day—from the Greeks and from other pagans—but he did not accept them and did not try to fit those ideas into Genesis.

Jacob Ben Avraham

#422
 "and it came to be that when men began to increase on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of Elohim saw the daughters of men that they were fair, and they wives for themselves of all whom they chose.  And YHVH said 'My Ruach will not strive with mankind forever in his going astray. He is flesh, and his days shall be 120.  The Nephilim (in some translations, the giants) were on the earth in those days and when the sons of Elohim came into the daughters of men, they bore children to them.  Those were the mighty men of old, men of name (fame).  6:1-4

     There are two schools of thought when the issue of "B'nei Elohim" comes up.  Some believe that it refers to the godly line of Seth mixing with the ungodly line of Kayin.  The other school of thought which is more probable is that the "sons of God" refer to the fallen angels that were kicked out of heaven together with HaSatan.  These "b'nei Elohim" somehow and someway transformed themselves into flesh and blood, and the offspring of those "demon-human" relationships were born "giants".  The word "Nephilim" means "fallen ones".  It does not mean "giants" ...however...those "mighty men of old" many were "giants" we have examples; Goliath of Gath, Og, king of Bashan.   

     There is archeological and paleontological evidence of a race of giants in the pre-diluvian world.  Many fossil skeletons have been found some 20 and 30 feet tall.  The Indians of the South-West claim that there was a race of red-haired giants who were cannibals, they could run after a herd of buffalo, catch one and bite off a leg and eat it on the run.

     These giants were destroyed during the flood, however, their DNA still survived.   Today there are "Giants" still around.  They make millions of dollars on the football field, namely, the "N.Y. Giants"


DaveW

Quote from: Jacob Ben Avraham on Sun Oct 23, 2022 - 22:58:09
These giants were destroyed during the flood, however, their DNA still survived. 
Or was re-created post flood in the same way it happened before:

Numbers 13:22
When they had gone up into the Negev, they came to Hebron where Ahiman, Sheshai and Talmai, the descendants of Anak were. (Now Hebron was built seven years before Zoan in Egypt.)

Numbers 13:33
There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the Nephilim); and we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight."

Deuteronomy 1:28
Where can we go up? Our brethren have made our hearts melt, saying, "The people are bigger and taller than we; the cities are large and fortified to heaven. And besides, we saw the sons of the Anakim there."'

Judges 1:20
Then they gave Hebron to Caleb, as Moses had promised; and he drove out from there the three sons of Anak.

Rella

Quote from: Jacob Ben Avraham on Sun Oct 23, 2022 - 22:58:09
"and it came to be that when men began to increase on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of Elohim saw the daughters of men that they were fair, and they wives for themselves of all whom they chose.  And YHVH said 'My Ruach will not strive with mankind forever in his going astray. He is flesh, and his days shall be 120.  The Nephilim (in some translations, the giants) were on the earth in those days and when the sons of Elohim came into the daughters of men, they bore children to them.  Those were the mighty men of old, men of name (fame).  6:1-4

     There are two schools of thought when the issue of "B'nei Elohim" comes up.  Some believe that it refers to the godly line of Seth mixing with the ungodly line of Kayin.  The other school of thought which is more probable is that the "sons of God" refer to the fallen angels that were kicked out of heaven together with HaSatan.  These "b'nei Elohim" somehow and someway transformed themselves into flesh and blood, and the offspring of those "demon-human" relationships were born "giants".  The word "Nephilim" means "fallen ones".  It does not mean "giants" ...however...those "mighty men of old" many were "giants" we have examples; Goliath of Gath, Og, king of Bashan.   

     There is archeological and paleontological evidence of a race of giants in the pre-diluvian world.  Many fossil skeletons have been found some 20 and 30 feet tall.  The Indians of the South-West claim that there was a race of red-haired giants who were cannibals, they could run after a herd of buffalo, catch one and bite off a leg and eat it on the run.

     These giants were destroyed during the flood, however, their DNA still survived.   Today there are "Giants" still around.  They make millions of dollars on the football field, namely, the "N.Y. Giants"

Thank you so much for posting this portion here. ::tippinghat::

Rella

The color change to red and font size change within the quote are mine for emphasis.


Quote from: DaveW on Mon Oct 24, 2022 - 04:59:53
Or was re-created post flood in the same way it happened before:

Numbers 13:22
When they had gone up into the Negev, they came to Hebron where Ahiman, Sheshai and Talmai, the descendants of Anak were. (Now Hebron was built seven years before Zoan in Egypt.)

Numbers 13:33
There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the Nephilim); and we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight."

Deuteronomy 1:28
Where can we go up? Our brethren have made our hearts melt, saying, "The people are bigger and taller than we; the cities are large and fortified to heaven. And besides, we saw the sons of the Anakim there."'

Judges 1:20
Then they gave Hebron to Caleb, as Moses had promised; and he drove out from there the three sons of Anak.


Two references in two old testament books definitely talk of giants. As in "truly" big people.

Amo

#426
I don't buy the fallen angels breeding with human women thing. Jesus said the angels neither marry nor are given in marriage. Such being the case, it is not even likely they were designed by God to procreate. If so, and they do, then God created two different moral standards for two of his different created beings concerning the same issue. Also something I do not see God doing. If premarital sex is a sin for one, it should before another as well. Perhaps if these angels married these women, which is another issue, it would be more acceptable. Then there is still the interspecies thing to consider. Which God apparently did not design creatures on earth to participate in.

Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Apart from this, there is the salvific issue of the consequences of God allowing fallen angels to interbreed with fallen humanity. We are in bad enough shape and in desperate need of salvation on our own, let alone being amalgamated with fallen angels. I don't think so. We are not even privy to seeing them, let alone having any intercourse with them, let alone sexual intercourse. Also, if fallen angels actually can produce offspring with humans, this would have to be according to God's own design. Which brings up several other issues. The humans giants of scripture were simply our antediluvian ancestors who were much larger than we presently are, as gobs of evidence suggest almost everything else was as well. Deep time, undirected, biological evolution is a crock. We, and everything else on this earth were far superior in size, to that which we are now. Not to mention no doubt a superior intellect and abilities for humanity as well, as evidenced with the many ancient ruins suggesting such rather than the primitiveness the false evolutionary narrative has created.

DaveW

Quote from: Amo on Mon Oct 24, 2022 - 07:01:42
I don't buy the fallen angels breeding with human women thing. Jesus said the angels neither marry nor are given in marriage.
C'mon Amo.  Use the WHOLE verse:

Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Mark 12:25
For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.


You left off the "in heaven" part.  Clearly, if angels mated with human women they would not be "in heaven;" rather, they would have been the fallen satanic angels. And there is nothing to tell us that the human looking angels (not the ones with several faces and sets of wings) have genitalia or not. So it is pure assumption to say they are incapable of such an act. 

There was a popular book in the first century named Enoch.  It is obliquely referenced in a couple of places in the NT.  In it (watchers section) it specifically says that the "sons of God" that sired the Nephelim were fallen angels. Our Lord said nothing to correct that understanding.  So I believe it is at least a viable possibility.

Rella

Quote from: Amo on Mon Oct 24, 2022 - 07:01:42
I don't buy the fallen angels breeding with human women thing. Jesus said the angels neither marry nor are given in marriage. Such being the case, it is not even likely they were designed by God to procreate. If so, and they do, then God created two different moral standards for two of his different created beings concerning the same issue. Also something I do not see God doing. If premarital sex is a sin for one, it should before another as well. Perhaps if these angels married these women, which is another issue, it would be more acceptable. Then there is still the interspecies thing to consider. Which God apparently did not design creatures on earth to participate in.



Amo,

Read what you wrote.

I don't buy the fallen angels breeding with human women thing.

WHY do you suppose they were fallen to begin with?  ::doh::

And this:

Such being the case, it is not even likely they were designed by God to procreate.

Genesis 19
19 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, while Lot was sitting at the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he got up to meet them, and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 Then he said, "Here, please my lords, please turn aside to your servant's house, spend the night and wash your feet. Then you can get up early and go on your way."

But they said, "No. We will spend the night in the open plaza."

3 But he urged them strongly, so they turned aside to him and they came into his house. He prepared a feast for them and baked matzot, and they ate. 4 They had not yet lain down when the men of the city (the men of Sodom) surrounded the house—from youth to elderly, all the people without exception. 5 And they called out to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have relations with them!"


But Lot kept them safe.... and if angels were unable they well could have cut the men down to size with little effort... but is was as if they would be gang raped ... therefore they would have been able.

You have to remember on earth all these things had real bodies... not spiritual .... so I submit they could.

Amo

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Oct 24, 2022 - 07:29:11
C'mon Amo.  Use the WHOLE verse:

Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Mark 12:25
For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.


You left off the "in heaven" part.  Clearly, if angels mated with human women they would not be "in heaven;" rather, they would have been the fallen satanic angels. And there is nothing to tell us that the human looking angels (not the ones with several faces and sets of wings) have genitalia or not. So it is pure assumption to say they are incapable of such an act. 

There was a popular book in the first century named Enoch.  It is obliquely referenced in a couple of places in the NT.  In it (watchers section) it specifically says that the "sons of God" that sired the Nephelim were fallen angels. Our Lord said nothing to correct that understanding.  So I believe it is at least a viable possibility.

My point had nothing to do with where angels were or are, only that they neither marry or are given in marriage. Obviously not created to procreate. Unless it's like a 60's thing in heaven, everyone sleeping around with everyone else, and having children with multiple partners. Eventually with everyone I guess, since they have forever to make the rounds. I highly doubt such. I don't think God creates different moral standards for His creations. Nevertheless, this particular subject is necessarily about our speculations, rather specific thus saith the Lord's. I'm sharing my reasons for my views regarding that which I don't think we will know till all is revealed at His coming.

One more point while I am at it. If fallen angels can mate with humans, and actually are males, then why aren't they still doing such? If God will allow for such, then why isn't it happening anymore? What ever stopped it?

Amo

Quote from: Rella on Mon Oct 24, 2022 - 07:44:18

Amo,

Read what you wrote.

I don't buy the fallen angels breeding with human women thing.

WHY do you suppose they were fallen to begin with?  ::doh::

And this:

Such being the case, it is not even likely they were designed by God to procreate.

Genesis 19
19 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, while Lot was sitting at the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he got up to meet them, and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 Then he said, "Here, please my lords, please turn aside to your servant's house, spend the night and wash your feet. Then you can get up early and go on your way."

But they said, "No. We will spend the night in the open plaza."

3 But he urged them strongly, so they turned aside to him and they came into his house. He prepared a feast for them and baked matzot, and they ate. 4 They had not yet lain down when the men of the city (the men of Sodom) surrounded the house—from youth to elderly, all the people without exception. 5 And they called out to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have relations with them!"


But Lot kept them safe.... and if angels were unable they well could have cut the men down to size with little effort... but is was as if they would be gang raped ... therefore they would have been able.

You have to remember on earth all these things had real bodies... not spiritual .... so I submit they could.


If they weren't fallen before they did such, they no doubt were afterward. What, do you think God told them to mate with fallen humans? This was part of God's plan? What happened to that plan then? One of the apparent and immediate results was the universal moral decay and rebellion of humanity against God, resulting in the total destruction of not just humanity, but the entire existing world at the time. Was this according to God's plan and foreknowledge? I don't think so.

What God's angels can or are allowed by God to do, and what fallen angels can do, are two very different things. The one have the full power of God almighty behind them, the other are on their own. Spiritual bodies are real bodies.

Angels do not always appear as humans, if that is what you are song above. Lot did not keep the angels safe, they kept him safe. No number of people are a threat at any time to any angel carrying out God's will. They blinded the men who were trying to abuse them, until they wore themselves out trying to just find the door, and left. They probably did not destroy them then, simply because they awaited the execution of God's instruction, as instructed.

Again, if fallen angels could mate with human women and produce offspring, then why didn't and don't they continue to do so. That would be a great plan to spread sin and rebellion.

Rella

Quote from: Amo on Tue Oct 25, 2022 - 06:31:38
If they weren't fallen before they did such, they no doubt were afterward. What, do you think God told them to mate with fallen humans? This was part of God's plan? What happened to that plan then? One of the apparent and immediate results was the universal moral decay and rebellion of humanity against God, resulting in the total destruction of not just humanity, but the entire existing world at the time. Was this according to God's plan and foreknowledge? I don't think so.

What God's angels can or are allowed by God to do, and what fallen angels can do, are two very different things. The one have the full power of God almighty behind them, the other are on their own. Spiritual bodies are real bodies.

Angels do not always appear as humans, if that is what you are song above. Lot did not keep the angels safe, they kept him safe. No number of people are a threat at any time to any angel carrying out God's will. They blinded the men who were trying to abuse them, until they wore themselves out trying to just find the door, and left. They probably did not destroy them then, simply because they awaited the execution of God's instruction, as instructed.

Again, if fallen angels could mate with human women and produce offspring, then why didn't and don't they continue to do so. That would be a great plan to spread sin and rebellion.


AND YOU DONT THINK THEY ARE NOT?

You are a literal bible believer.....

Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Some have taught that this refers to fallen angels interbreeding with human women to produce half-demon giants.

From Jude 1:6  KJV: And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

That means they no longer kept the form given to angels in Heaven and instead took on the form of humans on Earth. This is something angels have the ability to do, but only under God's direction for the purpose of ministering to us (Hebrews 1:14). Having human form gave them the ability to mate with human women.

https://www.bibleref.com/Jude/1/Jude-1-6.html#:~:text=Jude%201%3A6%2C%20KJV%3A%20And%20the%20angels%20which%20kept,darkness%20unto%20the%20judgment%20of%20the%20great%20day.
Quote
In this verse Jude refers to angels that rebelled against God's authority. They are charged with leaving their assigned role and leaving heaven. This statement may refer to the rebellion in heaven that Satan led against God in the dawn of human history (Isaiah 14:12–21; Ezekiel 28:12–19). He led as many as one third of the angels from their abode in heaven. Apparently, Satan and these angels were not content with the positions of authority God had assigned to them. They wanted greater authority and therefore rebelled against God. According to some interpreters, certain rebellious angels, called "sons of God" in Genesis 6:2, cohabited with "the daughters of man" (Genesis 6:1–4). Apparently as a result of this union, Nephilim, also translated as "fallen ones," or "giants" in English Bibles, appeared on earth.

Jude's reference to the rebellious angels may point to some other event known to Jude's readers, based on their familiarity with the non-biblical writings of Enoch. This book describes several instances of God's judgment against the fallen angels. At any rate, so far as Jude is using their example here, God punished those spiritual beings. He chained them in a place of darkness, where they await sentencing (2 Peter 2:4), likely when Satan is consigned to eternal punishment in the lake of burning sulfur (Revelation 20:7–10).

we learn that inter-marriage between angels and humans is forbidden by God because it produces a hybrid race that is neither angel nor human. In Genesis 6 these hybrids were called the nephilim, which means "fallen ones". Extra-Biblical sources tell us they had many supernatural abilities, which they used to lead humankind astray, and were a major cause of the Great Flood that destroyed all but 8 humans who had remained genetically pure.

WE all know Satan was cast out of heaven and 1/3 of the angels with him.

THOSE were fallen angels because evidently angels have free will to want to follow Satan...

OR... this possibility

https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/booklets/angels-gods-messengers-and-spirit-army/did-angels-interbreed-with-women-to-produce-giants
QuoteHalley's Bible Handbook, a popular study resource, states that "the 'sons of God' (v. 2) are thought to have been either fallen angels . . . or leaders in Sethite families [those descended from Adam's son Seth] who intermarried with godless descendants of [Adam's son] Cain" (25th ed., 2000, p. 96).

And hence these giants came from normal sized people  ::doh:: I don't think so.

The Bible is very clear on this. Genesis 6:2 says, "The sons of God (angels) saw that the daughters of men were beautiful and they married any of them they chose." Then Genesis 6:4 tells us, " The Nephilim were on the Earth in those days – and also afterward – when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them."[/size]

Wycliffes_Shillelagh

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Oct 24, 2022 - 07:29:11
C'mon Amo.  Use the WHOLE verse:

Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
C'mon Dave.  Use the WHOLE verse:

For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.

God is the one in heaven, not necessarily the angels.  The angels travel back and forth.  That's what angels do.

::noworries::

DaveW

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Oct 25, 2022 - 17:54:01
C'mon Dave.  Use the WHOLE verse:

For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.

God is the one in heaven, not necessarily the angels.  The angels travel back and forth.  That's what angels do.
I am using the NASB 95  There is no "of God" in there.

DaveW

Quote from: Amo on Tue Oct 25, 2022 - 06:09:00
My point had nothing to do with where angels were or are, only that they neither marry or are given in marriage. Obviously not created to procreate.
That is a huge assumption.  Angels have a lot of power that they typically do not use like striking whole cities blind. (like Sodom)

The general tone of God's creation was everything to reproduce after its own kind.  Why would angels be different in their initial creation?
QuoteOne more point while I am at it. If fallen angels can mate with humans, and actually are males, then why aren't they still doing such? If God will allow for such, then why isn't it happening anymore? What ever stopped it?
How do we know it stopped?  Do you have proof?

Rella

Quote from: Amo on Tue Oct 25, 2022 - 06:09:00
My point had nothing to do with where angels were or are, only that they neither marry or are given in marriage. Obviously not created to procreate. Unless it's like a 60's thing in heaven, everyone sleeping around with everyone else, and having children with multiple partners.

::doh:: We, or at least I am not talking about what angels do in heaven. Jesus stated, "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." Jesus personally stated that marriage would not exist in heaven. And God would forbid sex out of marriage in heaven.

But we know that angels have come to earth. In Hebrews 13:12

We have been told to be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

That means they looked like us, walked like us and talked like us. The 2 that showed up in Sodom and Gomorra certainly did.

In Rev we were told that Satan and 1/3 of the angels.. his  followers were cast to earth.

The idea of one third of the angels falling from heaven is found in Revelation 12:4: "His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth." This passage is often interpreted to mean Satan and a third of angels were removed from heaven to earth.

Did they all go around appearing as demons or did some end up looking just like us?

You seem to be hung up on this marriage thing. We have been told there will be not marriage in heaven, therefore no procreation.

But it is irrational to believe that a fallen angel, walking as a man, would not take advantage of getting his jollies from a lovely young woman on earth.

Also is irrational to think that none of them ever married... especially if she was lovely and said NO.

Also is irrational to think that Satan would not have it in his plans to corrupt and destroy God's earthly creations. He did so with Eve.... notice, it was not Adam the man he went after but the woman.  He did so with Job, with restrictions from God.

So for those fallen angels to breed with women back then would only be part of his plan.

He could not conquer heaven or even do as he wished... but he definitely had designs to conquer earth and destroy the people of God .

I submit... though cannot prove... that one of the reasons God sent the flood was because of the Satanic angels breeding with women and the resulting Nephilim. We know the entire population of mankind had become evil and wicked and God decided to bring a flood to the earth to destroy everyone but Noah and his family.

How and why did they become so wicked? Satanic angel interference is quite logical to assume.

I am not going into pre/post flood Nephilim as that is an extensive subject for another thread....

BUT I will close with ... I believe that Satan's fallen angels, as human form, are very much active in the world today. Breeding at will.

Wycliffes_Shillelagh

#436
Quote from: Rella on Wed Oct 26, 2022 - 07:14:36
I submit... though cannot prove... that one of the reasons God sent the flood was because of the Satanic angels breeding with women and the resulting Nephilim. We know the entire population of mankind had become evil and wicked and God decided to bring a flood to the earth to destroy everyone but Noah and his family.

How and why did they become so wicked? Satanic angel interference is quite logical to assume.
Here you go...

[Chapter 6]

1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children.' And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not 4 indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations 5 not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves 6 by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn 7 and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And these are the names of their leaders: Samlazaz, their leader, Araklba, Rameel, Kokablel, Tamlel, Ramlel, Danel, Ezeqeel, Baraqijal, 8 Asael, Armaros, Batarel, Ananel, Zaqiel, Samsapeel, Satarel, Turel, Jomjael, Sariel. These are their chiefs of tens.

[Chapter 7]

1 And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms 2 and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. And they 3 became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: Who consumed 4 all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against 5 them and devoured mankind. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and 6 fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.

[Chapter 8]

1 And Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all 2 colouring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they 3 were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjaza taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, 'Armaros the resolving of enchantments, Baraqijal (taught) astrology, Kokabel the constellations, Ezeqeel the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiel the signs of the earth, Shamsiel the signs of the sun, and Sariel the course of the moon. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven . . .

Read more

Rella

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Oct 26, 2022 - 08:59:09
Here you go...

[Chapter 6]

1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children.' And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not 4 indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations 5 not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves 6 by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn 7 and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And these are the names of their leaders: Samlazaz, their leader, Araklba, Rameel, Kokablel, Tamlel, Ramlel, Danel, Ezeqeel, Baraqijal, 8 Asael, Armaros, Batarel, Ananel, Zaqiel, Samsapeel, Satarel, Turel, Jomjael, Sariel. These are their chiefs of tens.

[Chapter 7]

1 And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms 2 and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. And they 3 became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: Who consumed 4 all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against 5 them and devoured mankind. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and 6 fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.

[Chapter 8]

1 And Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all 2 colouring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they 3 were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjaza taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, 'Armaros the resolving of enchantments, Baraqijal (taught) astrology, Kokabel the constellations, Ezeqeel the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiel the signs of the earth, Shamsiel the signs of the sun, and Sariel the course of the moon. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven . . .

Read more

Thank you,

Truly an interesting read... and is more explanatory even though it is said to be a parable. Enoch was not included within the Holy Bible. But then ... I can imagine the disbelief even though it is far more descriptive then just what Genesis tells us.

6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Wycliffes_Shillelagh

Quote from: Rella on Wed Oct 26, 2022 - 10:06:48
Truly an interesting read... and is more explanatory even though it is said to be a parable.
FWIW, I don't think this part of Enoch is meant to be a parable.

DaveW

Quote from: Rella on Wed Oct 26, 2022 - 10:06:48
Thank you,

Truly an interesting read... and is more explanatory even though it is said to be a parable. Enoch was not included within the Holy Bible. But then ... I can imagine the disbelief even though it is far more descriptive then just what Genesis tells us.
Yes, quite interesting.  Even more interesting is the fact that until the late 1800s this book was "lost."  I put that in quotes because European theologians and scholars considered it so, only having a few fragments to see; less than 5% of the actual text.  BUT -  our brothers to the south, specifically the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, had it in entirety as part of their biblical canon all along.  So, rightly or wrongly, it was/is part of their Holy Bible.

Lost indeed.

Wycliffes_Shillelagh

Quote from: DaveW on Wed Oct 26, 2022 - 12:13:05
Yes, quite interesting.  Even more interesting is the fact that until the late 1800s this book was "lost."  I put that in quotes because European theologians and scholars considered it so, only having a few fragments to see; less than 5% of the actual text.  BUT -  our brothers to the south, specifically the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, had it in entirety as part of their biblical canon all along.  So, rightly or wrongly, it was/is part of their Holy Bible.

Lost indeed.
A copy was also unearthed among the Dead Sea scrolls, confirming that the book is actually THAT old.

DaveW

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Oct 26, 2022 - 14:40:55
A copy was also unearthed among the Dead Sea scrolls, confirming that the book is actually THAT old.
Yes, but again it was only a fragment.  Like most of the Dead Sea scrolls.  I think the only documents that were complete were the charter for the city of Qumran and the book of Isaiah.

Wycliffes_Shillelagh

Quote from: DaveW on Thu Oct 27, 2022 - 12:24:05
Yes, but again it was only a fragment.  Like most of the Dead Sea scrolls.  I think the only documents that were complete were the charter for the city of Qumran and the book of Isaiah.
Uh, more like multiple copies.

Amo

https://bibleask.org/what-is-the-book-of-enoch-why-it-is-not-in-the-bible/

Quotes below from link above. Emphasis is mine.

What is the book of Enoch? Why it is not in the Bible?

The Book of Enoch


The first Book of Enoch, also named the Ethiopic Book of Enoch, is a pseudepigraphal work (not included in any canon of scripture) whose only complete extant version is an Ethiopic translation of a previous Greek translation formed in Palestine from the original Hebrew or Aramaic.

I Enoch is a collection of few separate works, most of which are apocalyptic. Its oldest part is the "Apocalypse of Weeks," recorded a little while before the Maccabean uprising of 167 bc. Other parts, specifically those that have to do with astronomical and cosmological speculations, are hard to date. Because of its perspective on messianism, celibacy, and the state of the soul after death, sections of I Enoch may have come from the Essene community of Jews at Qumrān.

However, no fragments of the longest portion of the work (chapters 37–71), were discovered among the Qumrān writings. This has caused scholars to believe that this part was probably recorded in the 2nd century ad by a Jewish Christian who wanted to diffuse his own eschatological ideas with the authority of Enoch, and attached his writings to the four older apocryphal Enoch writings. Fragments of similar writings were discovered at Qumran such as the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, a pseudepigraphical work of the dying commands of the twelve sons of Jacob in the 2nd century ad.

The fragments of the book of Enoch were brought to Europe by James Bruce in the late 18th century. Afterwards, they were translated into English in the 19th century. It is interesting to note that no scholar believes that this book was truly been written by Enoch.

Enoch in the Bible

According to the Bible, Enoch, the great grandfather of Noah, was the son of Jared (Genesis 5:18). He lived seven generations after Adam (Genesis 5:1-24). He was a holy man, who walked closely with God. The Bible tells us that he did not die. Instead, it says, the Lord "took him away" (Genesis 5:24; Hebrews 11:5). Thus, he is one of the two people that were taken up to heaven without dying [the other was Elijah (2 Kings 2:1-18)].

In the Bible, we see the Book of Enoch referenced to in Jude: "Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him'" (Jude 14-15). However, even this quote doesn't say that the Book of Enoch we have today is the same book. Nor can we say it was inspired or written by Enoch himself. The next few passages we'll see why.

Not Part of the Bible

There is little doubt that Enoch made the statements in Jude 1:14. But that doesn't mean that he authored the entire book (or any of it). The book was not accepted in the canon of Holy books because of its flawed doctrines that don't line up with Biblical truths. Here are some of the errors it contains:

The Book of Enoch claims that a demon named Gadreel led Eve astray. This demon later introduced weaponry to mankind. But the Bible states that the angel Satan is the one that used the serpent to deceive Eve in the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 28:13).

Further, the Book of Enoch presents the story of how 200 angels, or Watchers, rebelled against heaven. Then, these fallen angels descended to the plains of earth, married human wives, and fathered the Nephilim. The union of these angles with women produced 450-feet tall giants (chapter 7:12-15).

These fallen angels asked Enoch to plead on their behalf with God after He announced their final judgement. However, this teaching is not scriptural. Jesus clearly taught that angels do not marry. We find this in Mark 12:25: "For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven."

Also, the first chapter of the book, which claims to have been written before the flood, describes summer and winter. However, the Bible says that the seasons came after the flood: "And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried... While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease" (Genesis 8:14 & 22). Before the flood the earth was watered by dew (Genesis 2:6).
.........................................................

Conclusion

The Book of Enoch was examined and tested by Bible scholars, who determined that it was not inspired or written by Enoch. As a result, this book was not included in the Holy Canon. It appears that the book was authored by someone else after the flood. Most Christian Churches exclude the Book of Enoch from the Bible. Yet, in spite of the evidence against its inspiration, some early Christian groups, like the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, still accept sections or all of 1 Enoch as inspired.






Amo

#444
As I have stated many times over on these boards, backed up with observable scientific evidence, at one time the plants and animals of this world's past were far larger than they are now. This was not due to interbreeding with angels or anything else not of this earth. It is just the way it was in the past, as I understand it, pre-flood. Accordingly as well, there have been reports of giant human remains all over the world through the past. Many documented in news reports to this day. The evidence of this seems to always vanish. Which suggests two different conspiracy theories, the camps of which most of us fall within. One being either a global hoax executed by many different people, in many different lands, and at many different times throughout history. The other being a global effort to eradicate such evidence in support of this or that narrative which does not allow for the same, or simple hate for anything that might support biblical testimony. The enemy of all souls and his minions certainly fitting into the latter of the two mentioned.

Nevertheless, the evidence that this world was at one time very different than at present, and filled with much larger creatures than now inhabit it, is overwhelming. There is no need to add humans interbreeding with angels to the scenario, in order to have much larger humans in the past than we have today. It seems likely when viewed along side the extensive evidence already mentioned concerning many other plants and animals. Let each make what they will of such.

Amo

https://www.genesispark.com/exhibits/early-earth/larger-organisms/

Article below from link above.

QuoteLarger Organisms in the Past

Often larger organisms are healthier and longer-lived than smaller specimens of the same kind. Certainly environmental factors (particularly nutrition) and genetic variations play an important role in determining a creature's size and its lifespan. However, there are many creationists who believe that the larger ancestors of modern organisms (as seen in the fossil record) provide important evidence of decline in biological systems. Many years ago Henry Morris wrote, "[M]ost modern creatures are represented in the fossil record by larger and more highly developed individuals than their modern counterparts" (Morris, H, "The Power of Energy," CRSQ, 1964, pp. 18-23.) The early earth would have provided the optimal environment for healthy organisms (with specialized original biomes created directly by God). Perhaps part of the explanation for gigantism was the atmospheric conditions of the pre-Flood world. But we know that some giant species persisted even in the centuries after the Flood (ice age megafauna, for example). Undoubtedly, biological kinds continued to decline as they do today. With some possible exceptions (like the blue whale and African Elephant) the fossilized remains of the various animal kinds are significantly larger than their modern-day counterparts demonstrating a general trend of devolution over time.

While modern medicine and improved nutrition have actually reversed the downward trend in human lifespans, human genetic mutations continue to accumulate and new diseases pose fresh challenges. Those ancient plants and animals would not have suffered from the genetic deterioration that has accumulated since that time. In Romans 8:21-22 the Bible discusses the bondage to corrupting forces that was introduced with the fall of man and the curse of Genesis 3. But the scripture also tells of a time when men lived to be many hundreds of years old, giants were common on the earth, and the human genome was able to withstand extensive in-breeding (multiple genetic bottlenecks). Various animals can grow to indeterminate size, so they will become giants if they live long enough. How long would a dinosaur live in the pre-Flood world? Even today some reptiles live longer than humans. For example the tortoise Harriette that Charles Darwin brought back from the Galapagos Islands lived till 2006, dying at the ripe age of 175. If the dinosaurs lived significantly longer than humans on the early earth, some of the created organisms may have lasted right up till the Flood! Their longevity and reproductive capacity (as compared to mammals) could explain why the primeval world quickly became an "Age of Reptiles."

But the dinosaurs were certainly not the only creatures that grew to fantastic size on the early earth. A similar reptile, the crocodilian Sarcosuchus Imperator, grew to over 40 feet in length. Notice on right the Sarcosuchus skull compared to a modern crocodile skull. Fossils found in what is now the Giant Penguin & Skierdesert of Niger tell of a hyper-crocodile that would have feasted on dinosaurs in what was then a verdant river valley. Oftentimes we can identify fossilized plants and animals as closely allied to still living species. For example, fossil ferns have been discovered that are in the same family as modern ones, but the fossil ferns are the size of trees! On the early earth, horsetails once shot up over thirty feet tall. In 2018, a fossilized penguin was discovered in New Zealand. Taller than the modern Emperor Penguin, the penguins, named Crossvallia waiparensis, stood over 5 feet and weighed about 180 pounds. By comparison, the largest modern penguin species stands between 3 and 4 feet tall.

There were huge cockroaches, ants, crickets, grasshoppers and even monstrous spiders that thrived in a land of endless summer. Dragonflies with nearly three foot wingspan skimmed over swamps in which eight-foot beavers, monster frogs, and sixty-foot cattails flourished. Beetles once grew to be the size of a baseball mitt and climbed up conifers that towered a hundred feet high. Australia's iconic koala weighs as much as 31 pounds. Compare Cartoon man & Giant wormthis to the ancient forest canopies where a 150 pound marsupial, called Nimbadon, ruled. The fossil lungfish is twice the size of modern lungfish. Megapiranha, a fossil piranha discovered in Argentina was about 3 feet long–a beast four times as big as piranhas living today. Modern mayflies may sport a 10 inch wingspan at the most, but a primeval mayfly Bojophlebia prokopi had an 18 inch wingspan. A giant sand worm was discovered in Devon, England. These giant worms would have grown up to 3 feet long and 6 inches wide. Their large burrowing holes indicate that the creatures would have traveled beneath the surface, not unlike the modern earthworms used for fishing.

In his delightful book on fossil giants, Monumental Monsters, Vance Nelson demonstrates how creatures from all over the world have decline in size and diversity vs their ancient relatives. For example, the fossil raccoon Chapalmalania altaefrontis, would have dwarfed living raccoons. With its short tail and 5-foot body, it would have looked a bit like a giant panda bear. Pelorovis is an extinct genus of African cattle that resembled the Cape Buffalo, but sported a 10 ft horn spread! To the upper left is pictured the skull of the giant hyena-like animal Dinocrocuta. This fossil monster would have weighed in at about 850 pounds, nearly 4 times the size of the largest modern hyenas. An unlikely fossil was discovered in 2009 in a Colombian coal mine...the largest snake on record. The monster, called Titanoboa, was about 45 feet long and would have weighed over a ton! By comparison, the Guinness record for a snake found alive is just over 25 feet. The Australian fossil Varanus prisca (aka Megalania prisca) demonstrates dramatic decrease in size of these monitor lizards. While the extant Komodo Dragon might reach 10 ft in length, its ancestral relative would have been about 26 ft long. Wombat and seacow fossils similarly testify to giants in the past.

Gigantism seems to be a major feature of the fossil record. Fossil hunters in Uruguay uncovered the remains of a one ton rat creature (quite like the living South American Pacarana). The rodent would have been roughly the size of a small automobile and its head alone would have been larger than a cow! Another oversized rodent, the giant guinea pig, grew as big as a modern rhinoceros; while the ancient rhino grew to be the biggest mammal to ever walk on land. The large male white rhino might grow up to 4 tons, but a Paraceratherium, an extinct hornless rhino,  found in China, grew up to 24 tons! Tracks of an eight-foot-long monster millipede were discovered in New Mexico in 2005. Spencer Lucas, paleontology Paracatherium vs Modern Rhinocurator at the New Mexico Museum of Natural History, commented, "They just couldn't survive at that size in modern air... For an insect to get that big, you'd need to have a lot more oxygen in the air." (Quoted in Vorenberg, Sue, "This Bug's a Big One,"  Tribune Reporter, April 14, 2005.) Then in 2021 a nearly 9 ft millipede fossil was discovered in a cliff in northern England! Fossils of a 10 pound toad, a 13 ft high camel, a giant, bear-sized dog, and an 8 ft platypus all tell the story of larger organisms in the past. The ancient Steppe Mammoth weighed as much as 31,000 pounds in comparison to the largest elephant on record, a 24,000 pound bull that was killed in Angola. Modern coyotes are smaller than their Ice Age ancestors. Dunkleosteus & scuba manThe remains of a giant iguana were found in sediments on the Fijian island of Viti Levu. It is more than twice the size of the living iguana. The remains of giant baboons were discovered on the plains of Kenya. Weighing about 140 pounds, they would be twice the size of modern baboons. In ancient times the ferocious-looking, giant armored fish, Dinicthys terrelli, grew to approximately 30 feet long, with its head and neck covered in solid armor-like bone and sporting four scissor-like teeth at the front of its jaw. The fossilized remains of an ancient sea scorpion found in NY measures 6 ft in length. It seems like monstrous creatures existed in every ecosystem on the early earth!

According to Guinness, the biggest hedgehog around today are the European hedgehog; and the largest on record is a porker that weighed just under 10 pounds. But the fossilized hedgehog Deinogalerix, which was discovered in Italy, was a huge hog that would have been 5 times the size of the European hedgehog. To the right is a comparison between a bald eagle and the giant Teratorn bird (Argentavis magnificens) with a wingspan of 25 ft (Giant Moacomparison after Campbell, Kenneth E., "The World's Largest Flying Bird," Terra, Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County, 19:2, 1980.) The living bird with the largest wingspan is the wandering albatross, which has about 12 ft between wing tips. But the Pelagornis sandersi, an ancient albatross whose remains were found in South Carolina, had a 24 ft wingspan. The extinct giant Moa (Dinornus maximus) from New Zealand stood an incredible 12ft tall (left). The South American seriemas are long-legged birds that forage on foot and prefer to run from danger rather than fly. They grow to about 35 inches in height. But the closely-related bird Brontis (whose fossils are found in South America) was a 900 pound "terror bird" who would have stood over 9 feet tall!  Below are two of the fossils displayed at Mt. Blanco Fossil Museum: the skull of a giant salamander and horns of an ancient bison, measuring 8 foot tip-to-tip. Also below is a huge turtle skeleton exhibited at Yale's Peabody Museum. It is 11 feet long, 15 feet wide and would have weighed about 3 tons. Scientists in Spain found fossils of a mega-shrew that was capable of shooting venom out of blood-colored teeth. The researchers describe this extinct shrew, Dolinasorex glyphodon, as "giant" beacause it had a body mass of about 2 ounces, four times heavier than a modern water shrew. Massive deer, lemurs, kangaroo, and donkeys have all been found in the fossil record. Even an inch-long, Jurassic fossilized flea has been discovered that in China (bottom right).

The Entelodont (left) is an extinct creature that has been called the "Terminator Pig" because of its size and ferocious appearance. Looking something like a massively overgrown warthog, the Terminator Pig would have weighed up to 2,000 pounds. But unlike today's farm pigs that grow fat and lazy, the Entelodont  would have been an omnivorous apex predator in the North American plains. There is some disagreement about exactly how to classify this beast.

The picture to the right is of artist William Munns and his re-creation of the giant ape Gigantopithecus. Based on teeth and jaw fragments found in China, the great ape is thought to be 10-12 feet tall. Some people believe something like this creature still Modern Armadillo vs Glyptodontexist in the form of Big Foot. The giant South American armadillo grows to about 70 pounds. Compare this to the Glyptodont, the ancient South American armadillo that was as big as a automobile and weighed up to two tons! Then there is the example of the saber-toothed mesonyx. It was a wolf, somewhat larger than a Great Dane, and at least twice as large as a modern timber wolf. In 2017 an ancient wolf-sized otter species was unearthed in China. Siamogale melilutra is more than twice the size of the modern giant South American river otter.

Discovered in 2011 on the Spanish island of Minorca were king-sized rabbit remains. Meike Kohler Giant Bunny pictureThe giant bunny weighed in at 26 pounds, about six times bigger than the common European rabbit (see the comparison to the left). The smilodon, a large saber-toothed tiger, was bigger and more ferocious than than any modern tiger. Remains of a giant short-faced bear skull was found in South Dakota. It was one third bigger than today's largest grizzly bears, standing at about 11ft. Today it is rare to find a sloth that weighs 20 pounds, but the remains of the giant ground sloth Megatherium have been found in South American caves. It grew up to 4 tons and stood at 18 feet tall. So it didn't need to climb trees to get plenty of leaves to eat. It seems that such gigantism was common among mammals even up through the Equus giganteus2Ice Age. The conventional picture of horse evolution from a small deer-like ancestor to today's large horses needs to be reevaluated. The largest horse in recorded history, a Shire gelding named Mammoth, was born in 1848 and eventually weighed 3,300 lbs. But the fossil horse Equus Giganteus, a huge zebra-like animal, would have weighed well over 3,500 pounds, much more than any modern zebra!

Fossil marine predators that resemble shrimp have been found in Morocco. But these ancient anomalocaridids were over 3 ft long. Perhaps the most terrifying of all the ancient monsters, the fossil shark megalodon grew to be thirty times as big as the largest reported modern great white shark. The fossil record is replete with examples of immense creatures that flourished in the past. That is not to say there aren't also smaller varieties of these animals among the rock layers. Some preserved remains of beavers, rodents, elephants, and birds of prey would be close in size to their modern populations. There are even quite a number of smaller dinosaurs. Animal kinds throughout history seem to have enjoyed the capacity for a wide variation in sizes (like modern dogs). The point is that, when we can identify comparable kinds, there were considerably larger varieties, as a rule, in the distant past than we have alive anywhere today. And as far as we can tell, these are not outliers, freak cases of giantism. The norm of the population was simply larger in the past.  With our current understanding of information theory, this large-scale trend of genetic entropy over the ages should not come as a surprise to us.

Further evidence of biological decline comes from a California company, Ambergene, which has patented a process of sterilizing amber samples, grinding them up, and then growing the ancient microbes found in it. The company's research leads them to believe that these ancient microbes will yield more potent and powerful agricultural applications than modern-day descendants. They even isolated a yeast entombed in an ancient bee, grew it and found it very "active" as they brewed amber beer! The evidence suggests that biological deterioration and environmental degradation contributed to devolution (a decline in fitness, body mass, overall health, and longevity) through the ages.

Cobalt1959

QuoteGod is the one in heaven, not necessarily the angels.  The angels travel back and forth.  That's what angels do.

They travel to the Earth because it is not their primary abode.  The fallen angels are cast down to the Earth because it is not their home.  They get kicked out of their home.  Are you claiming that angels are some sort of cosmic transients that don't have a place to live?

Amo


Amo


Amo


Amo


Amo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-N3NYOL0c0

Another thought provoking video from Mystery History.

Rella

Quote from: Amo on Sun Dec 18, 2022 - 14:11:59
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-N3NYOL0c0

Another thought provoking video from Mystery History.

I enjoy seeing these as they are places I will never see in my lifetime.

But for some unexplained reason, things that defy the explainable make me uneasy.

Oh, not enough to stop looking but still uneasy, none the less

Amo

Quote from: Rella on Mon Dec 19, 2022 - 06:31:23
I enjoy seeing these as they are places I will never see in my lifetime.

But for some unexplained reason, things that defy the explainable make me uneasy.

Oh, not enough to stop looking but still uneasy, none the less

It could be worse. You could feel real comfy and at home, in this ever increasingly creepy world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wkdy23MANqY

Giant almost everything naturally existing in the past, as evidenced all over the world. Yet for some reason, giant humans of the past, have to be the result of interbreeding with angels or aliens. What's up with that?

Rella

Quote from: Amo on Fri Dec 23, 2022 - 04:47:21
It could be worse. You could feel real comfy and at home, in this ever increasingly creepy world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wkdy23MANqY

Giant almost everything naturally existing in the past, as evidenced all over the world. Yet for some reason, giant humans of the past, have to be the result of interbreeding with angels or aliens. What's up with that?


Yep... comfy in this subarctic weather brought to us courtesy of global warming...... NOT!

Not being a believer in aliens ( space) other then I know there is something to the UFO phenom but am fairly certain they are not Martians but likely spiritual.... ( most likely demonic) ... but not getting into that.... I feel they call the angel end of things because of the Nephilim....

NOW... in my quest of looking for provable proof of an actual giant I ran into this article. This is an interesting read.Including through the credits.

Following is the link as it is very long and a lot to quote here with the credits.

Giants in the Bible
by Tim Chaffey on February 22, 2012
Featured in Answers in Depth

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Introduction: Giants in the Bible

The Bible describes many individuals as giants, and it also mentions several giant people groups. Interpreters have speculated about the size of these people with guesses ranging anywhere from 6 feet to more than 30 feet in height. Also, a great deal of misinformation about giants in the Bible has been proliferated on the Internet along with some fake pictures of supposed giants. So did these giants really exist? If so, how big were they?

https://answersingenesis.org/bible-characters/giants-in-the-bible/

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