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A GLORIFIED BODY BEYOND THE SUNSET

Started by Reformer, Sun Jun 02, 2024 - 13:34:07

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Reformer

A Glorified Body Beyond
The Sunset

[See below my observations on Trump and Biden, plus
the Judgment of the Jury]

   How so very fascinating it will be in Heaven! A glorified, transformed body is one that is no longer subject to aging, illnesses, diseases, deterioration, or death. This is the kind of body our Lord currently has. At His death, His physical body underwent a transformation, a glorification. And it was this living form that appeared to His disciples on the mountain, with the living forms of Moses and Elijah. The Apostle Paul says it quite well:
 
   "But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it [heaven] we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform [transfigure] our lowly body to be like His glorious body, by the power that enables Him even to subject all things to Himself" [Phil. 3:20-21].
 
    Moses and Elijah, two servants among the greatest, now possess glorified, transformed bodies. And those bodies are very much alive somewhere in God's domain, for they appeared with Jesus centuries after they departed this planet. They are not sleeping. Nor was Samuel sleeping when God allowed a medium to "call him up" to give King Saul a message of death [1 Sam., chapter 28]. He was very much alive.
 
    My spirit and your spirit, the real you and me, will be clothed with some form of glorified body at death to await the resurrection, at which time we will receive our eternal body. "But God gives it a body as He has chosen...It is sown [buried] a natural [physical] body; it is raised a spiritual body" [1 Cor. 15:35-54]. Amen and glory to our Awesome Creator!

<><><>
 
 TRUMP & BIDEN
A Political Stigma Indeed
   
The Democrats are now rubbing Trump's nose in the mud because he is passing judgment upon and denouncing the Judiciary powers that pronounced him guilty of all charges. Guilty or not, let's turn the tables and rub the Democrats' nose in the same mire for judging and denouncing many facets of the same Judiciary authorities which Trump is judging and disparaging.
 
    The Democrats have done this, not once, but numerous times. We can start with the U. S. Supreme Court's decision on abortion. The bulk of the Democratic Party, including their leader Joe Biden, issued long, drawn-out negative messages about the Court's decision, messages and accusations that were—and still are—mean, ugly, and inappropriate. Their accusations against the U. S. Supreme Court are still being heard among the liberal Democrats and their leader Joe Biden.
 
     Simply, a large percentage of the verdicts issued by the U. S. Supreme Court, as well as lower Courts, are opposed by the Democratic Party. Why? Because many of the courts' rulings counter the liberal integrated way of life of its political chiefs. Yet when another party's leader, such as Trump, takes issue with any phase of the Judiciary system, he is censured, criticized, and denounced. I strongly move that two wrongs don't make either right. 

4WD

Quote from: Reformer on Sun Jun 02, 2024 - 13:34:07At His death, His physical body underwent a transformation, a glorification.
Where do you read that in the Bible?  He seemed to convince Thomas just the opposite. It was the same old body, that He died in on the cross.

Reformer

Same body, yes, but transformed or glorified.

Buff

4WD

Quote from: Reformer on Mon Jun 10, 2024 - 12:38:34Same body, yes, but transformed or glorified.

Buff
Again, where do you read that?

1Co 15:35  But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?"
1Co 15:36  You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.
1Co 15:37  And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain.

1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

Reformer

4WD:

How do you describe a "spiritual body"?

Buff

4WD

Quote from: Reformer on Tue Jun 11, 2024 - 13:31:124WD:

How do you describe a "spiritual body"?

Buff

I have no idea and neither do you.  But I am pretty sure about what it is not.  It is not a natural (physical) body (1 Cor 15:44).

1Cor 15:48  As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.

It is safe to say those who are of heaven are not of the dust.  I take that to mean not material.  The spiritual is not material.

Reformer

Quote from: 4WD on Tue Jun 11, 2024 - 14:12:56I have no idea and neither do you.  But I am pretty sure about what it is not.  It is not a natural (physical) body (1 Cor 15:44).

1Cor 15:48  As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.

It is safe to say those who are of heaven are not of the dust.  I take that to mean not material.  The spiritual is not material.


That's correct, the spiritual is not material. So you were able to describe a spiritual body after all. Thanks.

Amo

The material is not the issue. God can create life out of whatever material He wishes. That material will never have life though, unless God breathes His spirit or breath into it. All life is given and or taken by God. All life void of the spirit of God dies, because the spirit and the breath are from God. Apart from God there is nothing. Sin and sinners exist apart from God, and in the end, by choice. All of which is a temporary state of existence allowed by God, unto the salvation of all the lost souls who will accept the gift of eternal life again, in and through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Adam and Eve had spiritual bodies before the fall, because God had breathed His breath or spirit upon them.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Why would God, who is Spirit, create humanity in His image without spirit. To the contrary, humanity was just material, until God breathed His spirit into them. Of course the theory of evolution creates problems for this very simple scenario. Such as when and where did humanity actually have the breath or spirit of God breathed upon them? At what stage of supposed evolutionary development?

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

 Gen 2:7 then the Lord God [d]formed [that is, created the body of] man from the [e]dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living being [an individual complete in body and spirit].(AMP)

Gen 2:7 Then the Lord God formed man from the [a]dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath or spirit of life, and man became a living being.(AMPC)


Humanity can choose to walk and live in the spirit by faith in Christ Jesus our Lord today as well.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

We must be born again of the spirit here and now by faith. We cannot wait until the Lord returns to choose to walk in the spirit. By then it will be too late. Our new spiritual bodies will be different, but bodies nonetheless. Of real and actual substance, similar to that of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ after His resurrection. A body which could be seen, touched, and felt.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.





4WD

Quote from: Amo on Sat Jun 15, 2024 - 08:03:23The material is not the issue.
Did you happen to read the OP?  Apparently not.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Jun 15, 2024 - 08:03:23Adam and Eve had spiritual bodies before the fall, because God had breathed His breath or spirit upon them.
Well, that's a new one.  Where in all that is real did you come away with that? It certainly doesn't say anything about that in Genesis or anywhere else in the Bible..  You actually think the human body changed when Adam disobeyed?  Seriously??

Quote from: Amo on Sat Jun 15, 2024 - 08:03:23Why would God, who is Spirit, create humanity in His image without spirit. To the contrary, humanity was just material, until God breathed His spirit into them.
There is no suggestion anywhere that the body of Adam was changed either before God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life or after he disobeyed.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Jun 15, 2024 - 08:03:23Of course the theory of evolution creates problems for this very simple scenario. Such as when and where did humanity actually have the breath or spirit of God breathed upon them? At what stage of supposed evolutionary development?
Evolution has not one thing to do or say about the spirit of man.  That you even would think such a thing only shouts to the heavens what you don't know about either the spirit of man or about evolution.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Jun 15, 2024 - 08:03:23Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
And none of that has anything whatsoever to do with what will be the body of the saints in eternity.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Jun 15, 2024 - 08:03:23Our new spiritual bodies will be different, but bodies nonetheless. Of real and actual substance, similar to that of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ after His resurrection. A body which could be seen, touched, and felt.

And just where did you acquire the knowledge of what a spiritual body might be?

Quote from: Amo on Sat Jun 15, 2024 - 08:03:231Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
As I said to Reformer, neither I nor you have the slightest clue to what a spiritual body is.

Amo

QuoteWell, that's a new one.  Where in all that is real did you come away with that? It certainly doesn't say anything about that in Genesis or anywhere else in the Bible..  You actually think the human body changed when Adam disobeyed?  Seriously??

There is no suggestion anywhere that the body of Adam was changed either before God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life or after he disobeyed.

Well let's see, Adam a lifeless form of dust before God breathed the breath of life upon Him, then Adam a living breathing immortal being afterwards. That is a pretty big change.

Adam and Eve happy and obedient children of God with access to the tree of life and therefore immortality before they disobeyed God. Then Adam and Eve suddenly knowing they are naked after they disobey God, and subject decay and death, being separated from the tree of life. Seems like some major changes to me. Whether their sudden awareness of being naked was spiritually naked or literally naked, or both, we do not know. Regardless, something was changed, or shall we say gone, that was there before.

QuoteEvolution has not one thing to do or say about the spirit of man.  That you even would think such a thing only shouts to the heavens what you don't know about either the spirit of man or about evolution.

Nonsense. I do not nor have I ever suggesting any such thing. To the contrary as I always point out, Evolution is 100% extra biblical. As such, it most certainly does not have anything to do with the spirit of God or man.

QuoteAnd none of that has anything whatsoever to do with what will be the body of the saints in eternity.

More utter stinking extra biblical nonsense. None but those who choose to walk by the Spirit of God on this earth, instead of fallen flesh, will ever have the glorified spiritual body promised in scripture.

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

QuoteAnd just where did you acquire the knowledge of what a spiritual body might be?

Yea, that would be the verses I referred to which you are addressing. Where our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ appeared after the resurrection, and could be touched and felt. These two things at least, are no doubt true regarding our future glorified bodies. 

QuoteAs I said to Reformer, neither I nor you have the slightest clue to what a spiritual body is.

To the contrary, we have the eye witness testimony of those who saw, touched, and felt our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ after His resurrection. Apart from this of course, I am sure there is a whole lot we do not know. Actually, we also know several different things we will no longer be subject to, in our glorified bodies. Beyond this, I know not.

Amo

QuoteMoses and Elijah, two servants among the greatest, now possess glorified, transformed bodies. And those bodies are very much alive somewhere in God's domain, for they appeared with Jesus centuries after they departed this planet. They are not sleeping. Nor was Samuel sleeping when God allowed a medium to "call him up" to give King Saul a message of death [1 Sam., chapter 28]. He was very much alive.

Why would Moses or Elijah be sleeping the sleep of death? We know from scripture, that Elijah never experienced death, and that Michael the archangel came to earth to recover the body of Moses. No doubt a reference to his resurrection.

Why would anyone believe that God allowed a necromancer, all of whom He had condemned to death, to raise what, the disembodied spirit of Samuel? Apart from this, Saul never saw Samuel, but was reliant upon the necromancer's supposed ability to see him. Saul sought guidance from God while in open rebellion against Him, and God would not give Him any. Yet God allows another person living in rebellion of His commands, to contact one of His former prophets to answer Saul? I don't think so. Saul was left unto the deceptions he had chosen, and was given over to the guidance of the evil one.

1Sa 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. 15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

Saul submitted to the deception of the devil and his minions, and was lead down the path of eternal death. What Christian today seeks out and or believes the testimony of spiritual mediums? Who would trust their testimony alone that they alone see anyone, let alone the gods this one claimed to see? Saul bowed down before the image a spiritual medium claimed to see, and was left unto the deception he had chosen.

1Ch 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; 14 And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.

4WD

Mat 22:29  But Jesus answered them, "You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30  For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
Mat 22:31  And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God:
Mat 22:32  'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."

Wycliffes_Shillelagh

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Jun 16, 2024 - 13:53:13As I said to Reformer, neither I nor you have the slightest clue to what a spiritual body is.
This is knowable.  It's just a matter of grammar.

A spiritual body is pneumatikos - that word means that something is moved by spirit (pneuma).

It is contrasted with a natural body which word is psuchikos.  That word means that something is moved by one's mind (psuche).

A spiritual body is still a body, but it's got a different engine.

4WD

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Jun 18, 2024 - 00:12:06This is knowable.  It's just a matter of grammar.

A spiritual body is pneumatikos - that word means that something is moved by spirit (pneuma).

It is contrasted with a natural body which word is psuchikos.  That word means that something is moved by one's mind (psuche).

A spiritual body is still a body, but it's got a different engine.

I am not sure that I completely agree with that. From Strong's:

G4152
πνευματικός
pneumatikos
phyoo-mat-ik-os'
From G4151; non-carnal, that is, (humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (daemoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious: - spiritual. Compare G5591.


But personally, I have more reasons than just the definition of the word "spiritual". I find it very difficult to imagine a future realm composed of millions, if not billions, of so-called "glorified" bodies.  Will that "spiritual" body require food?  Where will that come from?  Will we have to work for it or will it just be supplied? Will that body need to eliminate waste products?  How will that body move around?  Will we all be back to walking everywhere we want or need to go?  Will that spiritual body live in houses?  What sort of "place" is Jesus preparing for us (John 14:2-3)?  There are just so, so many questions about a spiritual "corporal" body.

I know that there is a largely held view that Jesus is even now constrained in the body in which He rose from the tomb; but I reject that.  It think it was the same body, though healed in some sense, that He died in. There was nothing "glorified and transformed" about it.  That was the point He made loud and clear to the doubting Thomas (John 20:24-29).

He prayed to God, "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed" (John 17:5)

I firmly believe that the glory that He had with the Father before the world existed was not in the form of the physical being He was as the human being. Jesus said in John 4:24, "God is  spirit".  I have no doubt that before coming to earth in the form of a human being that Jesus was spirit. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. I believe that Jesus in His ascension is, once again, spirit. He is God.

1Co 15:46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.
1Co 15:47  The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
1Co 15:48  As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
1Co 15:49  Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.


I believe the man of heaven is spirit; He is not corporal in any sense whatsoever.

I could go on and on in this conversation, but I won't at this time.  I will add one thought here.  So much of the sin in the world is a direct result of our physical bodily nature. The older that I get, the less enamored I am about being contained in this physical body.  Through the years it has posed so many problems for me. The very first sin that was committed by Eve was because she "saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise" (Gen 3:6).  I am not anxious to be challenged in heaven to make such a choice.

podnad

It seems like you've presented two distinct topics: one focused on theological reflections about glorified bodies and the afterlife, and another discussing political issues surrounding Trump, Biden, and the judiciary system.

In the theological reflection, you emphasize the concept of a glorified body in Heaven, drawing upon biblical references such as Jesus' transfiguration and Paul's teachings about transformation. The glorified body is portrayed as free from aging, illness, and death, awaiting believers after death and resurrection. This perspective highlights the spiritual continuity beyond physical life and the promise of eternal life in a transformed state.

Regarding the political commentary, you address the controversy surrounding Trump's criticisms of the judiciary system, contrasting it with past criticisms from Democrats towards judicial decisions. You argue against the perceived hypocrisy in how criticisms are received based on political affiliation, emphasizing the need for fair and consistent treatment across party lines in addressing judicial issues.

Both topics touch on significant themes: one on eternal spiritual truths and the promise of transformation, and the other on contemporary political discourse and fairness in public debate. Each offers its perspective on enduring issues that resonate deeply with different audiences.


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