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Cathlodox
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What does the Sanctuary message portray that is so hard for so many people?

Started by Hobie, Mon May 27, 2019 - 05:43:19

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Hobie

Hebrews 8:5

"Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount."

You have the earthly sanctuary which after the death of Christ and His accession to heaven the focus shifts to the heavenly sanctuary. Now it's amazing the lack of understanding the average Christian knows about the meaning of the sanctuary as the earthly one was a copy of the heavenly one, and both have importance touched on in the Old and New Testament.

The earthly sanctuary has received much attention from Bible Scholars, and yet the heavenly sanctuary seems a mystery to them. So why is it so hard for them to grasp and its meaning to be understood of Christ's work in the heavenly temple?

piecrust

Quote from: Hobie on Mon May 27, 2019 - 05:43:19
Hebrews 8:5

"Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount."

You have the earthly sanctuary which after the death of Christ and His accession to heaven the focus shifts to the heavenly sanctuary. Now it's amazing the lack of understanding the average Christian knows about the meaning of the sanctuary as the earthly one was a copy of the heavenly one, and both have importance touched on in the Old and New Testament.

The earthly sanctuary has received much attention from Bible Scholars, and yet the heavenly sanctuary seems a mystery to them. So why is it so hard for them to grasp and its meaning to be understood of Christ's work in the heavenly temple?

What is so hard?  It's a false gospel!

Why not proclaim the Gospel, as given to you by Christ?  His good news!


Texas Conservative

Quote from: Hobie on Wed Feb 21, 2024 - 05:57:14It leads you to Christ, so its important..

The Sanctuary Doctrine believes Jesus lied when He said "It is finished!"

Cathlodox

It portrays "another gospel" that's different than what St. Paul preached.

Amo

It is fairly simple.

Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.


Those who do not accept the testimony of the above scriptures, are those who preach another gospel.

Psa 11:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. In the LORD put I my trust: how say ye to my soul, Flee as a bird to your mountain? 2 For, lo, the wicked bend their bow, they make ready their arrow upon the string, that they may privily shoot at the upright in heart. 3 If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do? 4 The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men. 5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. 6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. 7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

Texas Conservative

Quote from: Amo on Thu Feb 22, 2024 - 04:43:44It is fairly simple.

Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death (alternate SDA version) by means of entering the heavenly sanctuary in 1844, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God,to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Those who do not accept the testimony of the above scriptures, are those who preach another gospel.

Psa 11:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. In the LORD put I my trust: how say ye to my soul, Flee as a bird to your mountain? 2 For, lo, the wicked bend their bow, they make ready their arrow upon the string, that they may privily shoot at the upright in heart. 3 If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do? 4 The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men. 5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. 6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. 7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

Yes, it is fairly simple, you didn't highlight the most important part and you cling to a false prophetess and other false teachers who had to pivot when Jesus didn't return in 1844.  And in place of a false return, they created a doctrine that denies that Christ finished His work of salvation and intervention on the cross and His resurrection.

I highlighted in red what the bible says, and in blue what the SDA church says.

John 19:30

30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

or in the SDA version:

30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished at least until 1844!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

Amo

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Thu Feb 22, 2024 - 19:27:18Yes, it is fairly simple, you didn't highlight the most important part and you cling to a false prophetess and other false teachers who had to pivot when Jesus didn't return in 1844.  And in place of a false return, they created a doctrine that denies that Christ finished His work of salvation and intervention on the cross and His resurrection.

I highlighted in red what the bible says, and in blue what the SDA church says.

John 19:30

30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

or in the SDA version:

30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished at least until 1844!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

Ignorance is, as ignorance states. You obviously have no idea what SDA's even believe regarding 1844, or what the gospel of Jesus Christ actually entails.

What was finished was the death, that is to say sacrifice, of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for the remission of the sins of the world. As the scriptures under examination themselves conclusively testify. Comparing the imperfect sacrifices of the old covenant, to the perfect sacrifice of our Lord unto salvation, once and for all til the end of time. SDA's say nothing about another sacrifice taking place in 1844 or any other time. The teaching is in regards to the judgment, not the sacrifice.

Your totally unscriptural rant above, does not negate any of the NT scriptures which detail a whole lot more than you are allowing for concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ. The entire NT is filled with instructions and teachings for Jesus' disciples regarding the giving of the gospel message to this world. Which entails far more than just the sacrifice of our Lord. The sacrifice is complete once and for all, no one is arguing with that point. The sacrifice of Jesus for our sins is complete, but the sacrifice of the individual will to that of Christ's is an ongoing work right up to the end. The judgment of God is regarding who really did, and who did not choose to make that sacrifice.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

The above transformation is an ongoing work among God's own both individually and corporately. We have a mission to perform, and the leader of that mission is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who ever liveth to make intercession for us, in the heavenly sanctuary made without hands. It is not SDA's that are ignoring gobs of holy scripture related to this subject. It is one thing to disagree about what event transpired in 1844, it is another altogether to deny the ongoing nature of the gospel of Jesus Christ which is intricately tied to the the judgment.

Jhn 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Cathlodox

Most Christians reject the sanctuary Doctrine of Seventh-day Adventism because the general understanding is that when Jesus died on the cross that act TERMINATED the ceremonial law - When Jesus resurrected that confirmed everything Jesus said - i.e. He would fulfil the law & the Prophets.

Moral or Natural law is that law that is placed into everyone's heart regardless of religious instruction. It's how Pharoah KNEW that sleeping with another man's wife was WRONG - it's how Cain KNEW killing his brother was WRONG.

Ceremonial law such as the Passover, Day of Atonement, the Sabbath was never placed in the heart - these "ceremonial laws" had to be communicated for people to know about them. Man is not instructed by nature to observe the 10th day of the 7th month as a religious festival any more than man is instructed by nature to observe a Gregorian Saturday as a religious feast - man had to be instructed in these types of things to have knowledge of them.

The SDA Sanctuary Doctrine of SDA's has Christ CONTINUING to participate in Levitical ceremonial law over 2000 years after Christ ascended to heaven and sat down. Its obvious that SDA's don't believe the ceremonial law terminated at the Cross because they are still attempting to foist elements of it on Christians.

Amo

QuoteMost Christians reject the sanctuary Doctrine of Seventh-day Adventism because the general understanding is that when Jesus died on the cross that act TERMINATED the ceremonial law - When Jesus resurrected that confirmed everything Jesus said - i.e. He would fulfil the law & the Prophets.

Moral or Natural law is that law that is placed into everyone's heart regardless of religious instruction. It's how Pharoah KNEW that sleeping with another man's wife was WRONG - it's how Cain KNEW killing his brother was WRONG.

Ceremonial law such as the Passover, Day of Atonement, the Sabbath was never placed in the heart - these "ceremonial laws" had to be communicated for people to know about them. Man is not instructed by nature to observe the 10th day of the 7th month as a religious festival any more than man is instructed by nature to observe a Gregorian Saturday as a religious feast - man had to be instructed in these types of things to have knowledge of them.

The SDA Sanctuary Doctrine of SDA's has Christ CONTINUING to participate in Levitical ceremonial law over 2000 years after Christ ascended to heaven and sat down. Its obvious that SDA's don't believe the ceremonial law terminated at the Cross because they are still attempting to foist elements of it on Christians.

As I have already demonstrated, the scriptures themsleves reveal the ongoing work of intercession our Lord performs in the heavenly sanctuary. Those who deny it, deny scripture, plain and simple. I'll tell you one thing we do not continue since scripture has declared it has been done once and for all, which is the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. No un-bloody or any other sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. That sacrifice is finished. Unless it pertains to that which Paul declares in Rom 12:1, which is a spiritual sacrifice. Nothing to do with the literal body and blood of our Lord over and over again.

Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;


Once appears to be a key word in the above teachings. Even your supposed first Pope, pointed this truth out.

1Pe 3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

SDA's are not the one's pointing people to another sinner as another mediator between humanity and God called the Pope. We point all to Christ Jesus our Lord who ever liveth to make intercession for us in the heavenly sanctuary, of which the earthly was just a type. SDA's have not set up another priesthood of sinners officiating between man and God for the forgiveness of our sins. The Catholic church does. We point to Christ Jesus alone for confession and forgiveness of sins, apart from the one we may have sinned against. The Church of Rome points to their priesthood of sinners such as ourselves, for confession and forgiveness of sins. We do not point others to the saints of old or the dead for intercessory prayer instead of Christ alone, the church of Rome does. We do not make all of humanity dependent upon other sinners for salvation who alone can transform wine and crackers into the body and blood of Jesus, which Rome teaches is necessary, she does. We have not introduced the intercession of Mary or her status as Co redemptrix, Rome has. It seems you have things somewhat backwards in your mind.

The ceremonial laws were in relation to types, not the real. The sacrifices were types, Christ's sacrifice was and is real. The ministry of the priests was a type, the ministry of Christ is real. The high priest was a type, Christ is the real High Priest who ever liveth to make intercession for us. The earthly sanctuary and temple were types, the heavenly temple is the real.

We are not the ones who have set up another false temple and priesthood, Rome is. We point all to Christ and the heavenly sanctuary for authentic divine intercession. Thereby alone, can the temple of God be present through His church on earth.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Cathlodox

QuoteAmo said: As I have already demonstrated, the scriptures themsleves reveal the ongoing work of intercession our Lord performs in the heavenly sanctuary. Those who deny it, deny scripture, plain and simple

Scripture plainly and simply says that after Christ ascended He SAT DOWN - this is in direct opposition to SDA teaching that insists Christ is ALWAYS STANDING as the Levitical High Priest did, having to into the Most Holy Place year after year. I'm thinking you need to read the Book of Hebrews a little slower than you have in the past.

QuoteAmo said: No un-bloody or any other sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. That sacrifice is finished. Unless it pertains to that which Paul declares in Rom 12:1, which is a spiritual sacrifice. Nothing to do with the literal body and blood of our Lord over and over again.

Luther disagrees with you however since you are not a Protestant that's understandable.

QuoteAmo said: The ceremonial laws were in relation to types, not the real. The sacrifices were types, Christ's sacrifice was and is real. The ministry of the priests was a type, the ministry of Christ is real. The high priest was a type, Christ is the real High Priest who ever liveth to make intercession for us. The earthly sanctuary and temple were types, the heavenly temple is the real.

So you're saying the ceremonial laws given to Israel are still in force, Christ is conducting a Levitical service up in heaven not unlike the Levitical High Priests did on earth - Christ is even wearing Levitical garb complete with pomegranates, right????

 


Amo

QuoteScripture plainly and simply says that after Christ ascended He SAT DOWN - this is in direct opposition to SDA teaching that insists Christ is ALWAYS STANDING as the Levitical High Priest did, having to into the Most Holy Place year after year. I'm thinking you need to read the Book of Hebrews a little slower than you have in the past.

Yea, that's the ticket Cathlodox, and the real problem. We think Jesus is always standing up, and you think he is always sitting down. My Lord is in His temple, from which He sustains and commands all His creations, and ever liveth to make intercession for fallen humanity. Just as the scriptures teach. None of which is anywhere near beyond his scope and ability I am sure.

QuoteLuther disagrees with you however since you are not a Protestant that's understandable.

He disagrees with you as well. I am a Protestant, one of the few still protesting the false teachings and usurped authority the Roman church forces upon the unwilling.

QuoteSo you're saying the ceremonial laws given to Israel are still in force, Christ is conducting a Levitical service up in heaven not unlike the Levitical High Priests did on earth - Christ is even wearing Levitical garb complete with pomegranates, right?

Nope. I'm saying all the types and symbols employed in and by the nation of Israel regarding the plan of salvation through Christ Jesus our Lord, were just that. They were never the real thing, but only served the purpose of providing a demonstration of what the plan of salvation was, for people of the old covenant to grasp, understand, and choose to believe by faith or not. Because this world separated from God by sin, is not privy to, nor even capable of handling what actually goes on in heaven and the realms of unfallen beings. As we still are not, and still look forward to the things described and foretold to us in holy scripture. The scenes and glories of heaven would destroy us in our present state, as they will destroy the wicked who are not changed from mortal to immortal when our Lord returns at the time the Father has determined.

I do not begin to try and imagine what the glories of the temple in heaven must entail, or anything else there either. These things are far beyond us. Some of the prophets have tried to describe such to us, and John does as well in the book of Revelation, which is as close as we will get for now. The kindergarten sanctuaries and temples through which God taught us the truths of humanities salvation, do not begin to capture the actual glories, or eternal scope of eternal truths, realities, and beings with which we have to do, through Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. 3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. 5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. 6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. 7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle. 8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. 9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, 10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created...........
Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; 12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. 13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. 14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.


Psa 11:4  The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.

Much of the book of Revelation is described as taking place within the temple in heaven. We do not begin to comprehend such a structure, or the beings within it, let alone God Himself whose throne is there.

Cathlodox

QuoteAmo said: Yea, that's the ticket Cathlodox, and the real problem. We think Jesus is always standing up, and you think he is always sitting down. My Lord is in His temple, from which He sustains and commands all His creations, and ever liveth to make intercession for fallen humanity. Just as the scriptures teach. None of which is anywhere near beyond his scope and ability I am sure.

Whereas what Jesus needed to do to finish His work, yeah I'm saying He finished the work He came to do. Look at Hebrews 10, 12 and realize it's referencing you to Psalm 110, 1-2.

Hebrews 10, 12
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Psalm 110
The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

When Jesus said something is greater here than the Temple He was referring to Himself so yes, I believe that Jesus fulfilled the law that stood against us (THE CEREMONIAL LAW).

You believe that Christ is bound to keep operating AS A LEVITIACAL PRIEST whereas I don't.

Cathlodox

QuoteAmo said: I am a Protestant, one of the few still protesting the false teachings and usurped authority the Roman church forces upon the unwilling.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Christadelphians and the World Wide Church of God protest Roman Catholicism - that doesn't make them "Protestant". Those groups are no more protestant than you are.

You (SDA's) categorically reject Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide.

Sola-Scriptura:
A Lutheran and Reformed position that posits the BIBLE AS THE SOLE INFALIBLE SOURCE OF AUTHORITY FOR CHRISTIAN FAITH AND PRACTICE.

An SDA who holds Ellen White to have exhibited the Spirit of Prophecy is no more Sola Scriptura then I am being Roman Catholic. It's time you come to terms with the fact that you have replaced the Bishop of Rome with an 18th century mystic.

So, as an SDA you do NOT qualify to be included in Protestantism any more than I do. I'm fairly certain you and Hobie know this.




Amo

Quote from: Cathlodox on Tue Feb 27, 2024 - 10:00:59Whereas what Jesus needed to do to finish His work, yeah I'm saying He finished the work He came to do. Look at Hebrews 10, 12 and realize it's referencing you to Psalm 110, 1-2.

Hebrews 10, 12
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Psalm 110
The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

When Jesus said something is greater here than the Temple He was referring to Himself so yes, I believe that Jesus fulfilled the law that stood against us (THE CEREMONIAL LAW).

You believe that Christ is bound to keep operating AS A LEVITIACAL PRIEST whereas I don't.

Christ is not bound to do anything, He is verily God, and may certainly therefore do as He pleases. I simply believe He is doing that which His word testifies He is doing. That is all. Apparently you do not, insisting that everything, even that which His word testifies He is doing now, is already done. So be it.

Amo

Quote from: Cathlodox on Tue Feb 27, 2024 - 10:42:40Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Christadelphians and the World Wide Church of God protest Roman Catholicism - that doesn't make them "Protestant". Those groups are no more protestant than you are.

You (SDA's) categorically reject Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide.

Sola-Scriptura:
A Lutheran and Reformed position that posits the BIBLE AS THE SOLE INFALIBLE SOURCE OF AUTHORITY FOR CHRISTIAN FAITH AND PRACTICE.

An SDA who holds Ellen White to have exhibited the Spirit of Prophecy is no more Sola Scriptura then I am being Roman Catholic. It's time you come to terms with the fact that you have replaced the Bishop of Rome with an 18th century mystic.

So, as an SDA you do NOT qualify to be included in Protestantism any more than I do. I'm fairly certain you and Hobie know this.

Think whatever you wish, I have no desire to force anything upon you. I consider your testimony to be every bit as false as you consider mine of course. You say I am not a Protestant, very well.

I say here today, that I personally protest the past and present abuses of the church of Rome upon humanity.

Her false claims as the true church, and the false claim of her leader to the effect that he is the visible head of Christ's church on earth.

I protest her false claim to be given temporal power over peoples and nations of this earth by God. Whether she openly exhibit such usurped authority, or remain behind the scenes manipulating the leaders of nations unto the same effect.

I protest the church of Rome's support of numerous abusive and murderous leaders and institutions of the past and present.

I protest the giving of billions of dollars of US citizens tax payers monies to the church of Rome without their consent.

I protest the use of said monies to help facilitate mass migration into this and other nations without the consent of the people of those nations.

I protest the constant practice of the Roman church bypassing the will of the citizens of many nations through their illicit political relations with the kings and leaders of this earth.

As well as protesting the actions of these shameful leaders who ought to be serving their own citizens above and over the Pope of Rome, Vatican, or Catholic church.

I protest the support of the Roman church for globalist international organizations and institutions of unelected officials who attempt to lord themsleves over the leaders and citizens of sovereign nations who neither ask for or want their usurped leadership.

I protest the Pope's calls for one world government, through a said international organization which has real teeth to enforce its usurped power and authority over nations and peoples who neither asked for or care for such arrogant and meddling tyrannical leadership.

I protest the papal call for the unification of all humanity and religions under the guidance of a global institution upholding a vague expression or term called the "common good". Which she herself claims moral authority to explain and determine for all others. A term used by socialists, fascists, and communists of the past and present, not to mention Adolf Hitler himself, in establishing their supposed utopias.

I protest the church of Rome's present support and or approval of the sins of humanity which the holy scriptures specifically warn against.

I protest the church of Romes status as a literal nation state of this world established by the Fascist Mussolini, which gives it political status on the world stage and a permanent seat at the United Nations.

I protest the Vatican entertaining ambassadors from the world over at her embassy, where they discuss political matters and make resolutions regarding nations which bypass the will and or consent of the people of those nations.

Finally, though I could continue, I protest the subversive agent the church of Rome represents from within every nation her adherents inhabit. In that she has instructed all of her adherents within the many and various nations of this earth, to work to establish her own social justice (political agenda), through legislative processes in these nations.

There you have it. Now I am a Protest-ant, whether you like it, or think so or not.

Cathlodox

Amo, if you classify Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses as "Protestant" there is obviously not a reason you shouldn't consider yourself one as well. Other than the definition of Protestant LOL!

Amo

Quote from: Cathlodox on Tue Feb 27, 2024 - 12:10:08Amo, if you classify Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses as "Protestant" there is obviously not a reason you shouldn't consider yourself one as well. Other than the definition of Protestant LOL!

I never said they were, but we both know you are all about adding words and or meaning to the words of others, which they themselves never intended.

Cathlodox

Quote from: Amo on Tue Feb 27, 2024 - 12:16:00I never said they were, but we both know you are all about adding words and or meaning to the words of others, which they themselves never intended.

Good, you acknowledged they are NOT CHRISTIAN yet their Godhead theology is IDENTICAL to Ellen White's.

Hobie

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Wed Feb 21, 2024 - 06:09:06The Sanctuary Doctrine believes Jesus lied when He said "It is finished!"
Yet judgement has to begin with the church and we have an Advocate, so God's Word shows us the process..

Cathlodox

Quote from: Amo on Tue Feb 27, 2024 - 12:16:00I never said they were, but we both know you are all about adding words and or meaning to the words of others, which they themselves never intended.

What is James White saying below that he didn't intend to say Amo?

Sabbath Herald February 7, 1856 Vol 7 #19 page 148 para. 26
The "mystery of iniquity" began to work in the church in Paul's day. It finally crowded out the simplicity of the gospel, and corrupted the doctrine of Christ, and the church went into the wilderness. Martin Luther, and other reformers, arose in the strength of God, and with the Word and Spirit, made mighty strides in the Reformation. The greatest fault we can find in the Reformation is, the Reformers stopped reforming. Had they gone on, and onward, till they had left the last vestige of Papacy behind, such as natural immortality, sprinkling, the trinity, and Sunday-keeping, the church would now be free from her unscriptural errors.

This is what SDA's thought of Martin Luther and his followers...
...The same goes for Calvinists & the other Reformed Protestant Churches.
...Ellen White took it to the next level however.

Any Christian who didn't leave their Church and join the Millerites false message was said to be WORSHIPING LUCIFER.

Is Ellen White below saying something she didn't intend to say Amo?

Ellen White Early Writings of Ellen White pages 55 - 56
There I beheld Jesus, a Great High Priest, standing before the Father. on the hem of His Garment was a bell and a pomegranate, A BELL AND A POMEGRANATE. Those who rose up with Jesus would send up their faith in Him in the holiest, and pray, "MY FAIHER, give us Thy Spirit". Then Jesus would breath upon them the Holy Ghost. In that breath was light, power and much love, joy and peace. I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne: THEY DID NOT KNOW THAT JESUS HAD LEFT IT. SATAN APPEARED TO BE BY THE THRONE, TRYING TO CARRY ON THE WORK OF GOD. I SAW THEM LOOK UP TO THE THRONE AND PRAY, "FATHER GIVE US THY SPIRIT". SATAN WOULD THEN BREATH UPON THEM AND UNHOLY INFLUENCE; IN IT THERE WAS LIGHT AND MUCH POWER, BUT NO SWEET LOVE, JOY AND PEACE. SATAN'S OBJECT WAS TO KEEP THEM DECEIVED, AND TO DRAW BACK AND DECEIVE GOD'S CHILDREN".

So, the Christians who opted to NOT follow the Millerites false message that Jesus was coming back on October 22, 1844 were still in their Churches praying to God - but Jesus, (according to Ellen) got up and went into the holiest part of the temple in heaven. The Christians who therefore didn't join Millerism thought they were praying to God but in fact were praying to Lucifer who spilled out his own version of the Holy Spirit on those who rejected what Ellen White took hook, line and sinker!

Are Baptists, Lutherans & Methodists today being plied with Lucifer's holy spirit while thinking they are praying to God? If you say no I'd appreciate you telling me when this rubric ceased.


Amo

Quote from: Cathlodox on Sat Mar 16, 2024 - 16:37:09What is James White saying below that he didn't intend to say Amo?

Sabbath Herald February 7, 1856 Vol 7 #19 page 148 para. 26
The "mystery of iniquity" began to work in the church in Paul's day. It finally crowded out the simplicity of the gospel, and corrupted the doctrine of Christ, and the church went into the wilderness. Martin Luther, and other reformers, arose in the strength of God, and with the Word and Spirit, made mighty strides in the Reformation. The greatest fault we can find in the Reformation is, the Reformers stopped reforming. Had they gone on, and onward, till they had left the last vestige of Papacy behind, such as natural immortality, sprinkling, the trinity, and Sunday-keeping, the church would now be free from her unscriptural errors.

This is what SDA's thought of Martin Luther and his followers...
...The same goes for Calvinists & the other Reformed Protestant Churches.
...Ellen White took it to the next level however.

Any Christian who didn't leave their Church and join the Millerites false message was said to be WORSHIPING LUCIFER.

Is Ellen White below saying something she didn't intend to say Amo?

Ellen White Early Writings of Ellen White pages 55 - 56
There I beheld Jesus, a Great High Priest, standing before the Father. on the hem of His Garment was a bell and a pomegranate, A BELL AND A POMEGRANATE. Those who rose up with Jesus would send up their faith in Him in the holiest, and pray, "MY FAIHER, give us Thy Spirit". Then Jesus would breath upon them the Holy Ghost. In that breath was light, power and much love, joy and peace. I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne: THEY DID NOT KNOW THAT JESUS HAD LEFT IT. SATAN APPEARED TO BE BY THE THRONE, TRYING TO CARRY ON THE WORK OF GOD. I SAW THEM LOOK UP TO THE THRONE AND PRAY, "FATHER GIVE US THY SPIRIT". SATAN WOULD THEN BREATH UPON THEM AND UNHOLY INFLUENCE; IN IT THERE WAS LIGHT AND MUCH POWER, BUT NO SWEET LOVE, JOY AND PEACE. SATAN'S OBJECT WAS TO KEEP THEM DECEIVED, AND TO DRAW BACK AND DECEIVE GOD'S CHILDREN".

So, the Christians who opted to NOT follow the Millerites false message that Jesus was coming back on October 22, 1844 were still in their Churches praying to God - but Jesus, (according to Ellen) got up and went into the holiest part of the temple in heaven. The Christians who therefore didn't join Millerism thought they were praying to God but in fact were praying to Lucifer who spilled out his own version of the Holy Spirit on those who rejected what Ellen White took hook, line and sinker!

Are Baptists, Lutherans & Methodists today being plied with Lucifer's holy spirit while thinking they are praying to God? If you say no I'd appreciate you telling me when this rubric ceased.

If you must Babyl-on, then start another thread asking these questions. Don't hijack other topics, in the hope I suppose, of changing the subject regarding things perhaps you would rather not see discussed. Regardless of your reasoning, as I cannot know for sure, create your own topic or thread to discuss these issues. Don't hijack existing ones.

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