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Creation scientists

Started by Amo, Sat Aug 10, 2019 - 12:47:21

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4WD

Quote from: Amo on Sat Jan 27, 2024 - 14:05:06Yea, we have been through this before. Good science is in the eye of the beholder. Evolutionary deep time scenarios seem to be good science to you, because your faith is in such scientific "claims". YEC scenarios seem to be good science to me, because my faith is in the plain testimony of scripture. 
Good science is absolutely not in the eye of the beholder. Your definition of good science is precisely that of the global warming mongers. YEC scenarios seem to you to be good science because you haven't clue about science, either good or bad.

Good science is that which most nearly and accurately describes the observable behavior of nature and natural events. And that is why even the title of this topic, Creation Scientists is an oxymoron.  Creation of the Bible, i.e., creation ex nihilo, is not behavior of any kind. There is nothing natural about it at all.  It is completely unnatural.  Only as a completed act is there anything to be observed.

Amo


Amo

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Jan 28, 2024 - 03:53:35Good science is absolutely not in the eye of the beholder. Your definition of good science is precisely that of the global warming mongers. YEC scenarios seem to you to be good science because you haven't clue about science, either good or bad.

Good science is that which most nearly and accurately describes the observable behavior of nature and natural events. And that is why even the title of this topic, Creation Scientists is an oxymoron.  Creation of the Bible, i.e., creation ex nihilo, is not behavior of any kind. There is nothing natural about it at all.  It is completely unnatural.  Only as a completed act is there anything to be observed.

Same old same old junk from you 4WD. You claim to actually believe that God created this earth, just not as scripture plainly states He did, then declare creation science to be an oxymoron. Why would creation science be an oxymoron if God did indeed create this earth? You will not define what is real science for me, or anyone else for that matter.

You forget perhaps, that I find your assertions of evolutionary development over deep time, every bit as asinine, as you consider my views of YEC. Creation by intelligent design seems blatantly obvious to me, and none could convince otherwise. Evolution by chance over deep time I find to be laughable, devoid of intelligent guidance at the very least.

Creation science is a perfect title for a branch science which intends to dispute the many false and or scientifically unsupported claims deep time evolutionary science espouses.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

God is revealed by the things which He has made, and he made this world. Nature, and the laws of it. Do you believe scripture or not? Scripture declares that God is revealed in nature, you vehemently deny this. Why?

Psa 19:1  To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. 4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, 5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. 6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. 7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. 8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. 9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. 10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. 11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward. 12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults. 13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. 14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

4WD

Quote from: Amo on Sat Feb 03, 2024 - 14:58:25Same old same old junk from you 4WD. You claim to actually believe that God created this earth, just not as scripture plainly states He did, then declare creation science to be an oxymoron. Why would creation science be an oxymoron if God did indeed create this earth?
Because Creation ex nihilo is, by definition, a non-natural function at the spiritual hand of God. It is outside of a scientific purview of natural events.

And besides, I think that the way scripture plainly states the way God created this universe is a lot closer to the way His science reveals it than the way you interpret it.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Feb 03, 2024 - 14:58:25You will not define what is real science for me, or anyone else for that matter.
Well somebody certainly needs to define it for you for because just creation ex nihilo is outside the purview of science, it seems that science generally is outside the purview of an Amo.

Wycliffes_Shillelagh

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Jan 28, 2024 - 03:53:35Good science is absolutely not in the eye of the beholder.
Right - good science is in the eye of the underwriter of the research. /s

4WD

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sat Feb 03, 2024 - 21:12:48Right - good science is in the eye of the underwriter of the research. /s
Well Wick, if that is not tongue-in-cheek then you should be ashamed of yourself.

Amo

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sat Feb 03, 2024 - 21:12:48Right - good science is in the eye of the underwriter of the research. /s

Well said.

Amo

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Feb 03, 2024 - 18:18:21Because Creation ex nihilo is, by definition, a non-natural function at the spiritual hand of God. It is outside of a scientific purview of natural events.

And besides, I think that the way scripture plainly states the way God created this universe is a lot closer to the way His science reveals it than the way you interpret it.
Well somebody certainly needs to define it for you for because just creation ex nihilo is outside the purview of science, it seems that science generally is outside the purview of an Amo.

So you are saying that this fallen world and humanity are the natural condition of God's creative power? That our present condition is the norm to judge all else by? You think this is a biblical stance? Are you saying God cannot create ex nihilo ?

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Heb 11:3  Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.


Why do you judge the scriptures by the world, which you call natural, instead of the world by scripture, which God declares is in an unnatural state. To be sure, God is natural, for apart from Him there is nothing. He is, we are not. We are the unnatural, not Him or the rest of His creation. What folly, to judge the natural order of God's creation, by the unnatural condition God declares our planet and nature to be in. Are you not deceived? Judging the natural by the unnatural, while thinking it is the other way around? No offense intended, just a question.

4WD

Quote from: Amo on Sun Feb 04, 2024 - 10:31:53So you are saying that this fallen world and humanity are the natural condition of God's creative power? That our present condition is the norm to judge all else by? You think this is a biblical stance?
Yes, of course.  If it isn't then to whom did God give the power to change it?

Quote from: Amo on Sun Feb 04, 2024 - 10:31:53Are you saying God cannot create ex nihilo ?
Did you read anywhere that I said that?

Quote from: Amo on Sun Feb 04, 2024 - 10:31:53Why do you judge the scriptures by the world, which you call natural, instead of the world by scripture, which God declares is in an unnatural state.
Where does God declare anything of the world unnatural?  How did it get to be unnatural?

Quote from: Amo on Sun Feb 04, 2024 - 10:31:53To be sure, God is natural, for apart from Him there is nothing. He is, we are not. We are the unnatural, not Him or the rest of His creation. What folly, to judge the natural order of God's creation, by the unnatural condition God declares our planet and nature to be in. Are you not deceived? Judging the natural by the unnatural, while thinking it is the other way around? No offense intended, just a question.
That's nuts. All of that is pure nonsense.

Wycliffes_Shillelagh

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Feb 04, 2024 - 01:27:34Well Wick, if that is not tongue-in-cheek then you should be ashamed of yourself.
When someone ends a post with "/s" that indicates sarcasm.

My post was meant to point out that the way the world seems to function is in direct opposition to the ideal practice of science.

Texas Conservative

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Mon Feb 05, 2024 - 16:33:31When someone ends a post with "/s" that indicates sarcasm.

My post was meant to point out that the way the world seems to function is in direct opposition to the ideal practice of science.

You are right.

Unfortunately, money/power/politics influences what gets funding or accepted as science.  The recent Covid years are a perfect example.

And some scientists who are willing to sell out to the highest bidder for money or power become the high priests of science.

Amo

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Feb 04, 2024 - 13:03:04Yes, of course.  If it isn't then to whom did God give the power to change it?
Did you read anywhere that I said that?
Where does God declare anything of the world unnatural?  How did it get to be unnatural?
  That's nuts. All of that is pure nonsense.

You are truly in the dark my friend. I leave you to the natural corruption of this world, which you have chosen to judge all else by.

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

This world and everything and everyone in it, is so unnatural to God, that it will literally be burned up by His presence at His return. Because our God is a consuming fire to sin and corruption. It is no surprise that in accordance with your chosen faith in the "sciences so called" of this world, your rejection of the above testimony concerning the first time God destroyed this world, has now no doubt lead you to rejecting the above testimony concerning the second time God will destroy this world as well. This world is exactly, the unnatural state of existence which God will terminate by His personal unveiled presence when He returns again. At which time all who have remained in the corruption of this world, will be destroyed along with it. And all who accepted Christ's salvation from that same corruption, will be delivered from  it, unto life eternal.

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

4WD

Quote from: Amo on Fri Feb 09, 2024 - 20:29:54You are truly in the dark my friend. I leave you to the natural corruption of this world, which you have chosen to judge all else by.
Yet, not a word about who or what changed things. To whom did God give the power to change the world as you think it was changed.

Quote from: Amo on Fri Feb 09, 2024 - 20:29:54This world and everything and everyone in it, is so unnatural to God, that it will literally be burned up by His presence at His return.
There is absolutely nothing that says that is not precisely according to God's plan for this world.

Quote from: Amo on Fri Feb 09, 2024 - 20:29:54Because our God is a consuming fire to sin and corruption. It is no surprise that in accordance with your chosen faith in the "sciences so called" of this world, your rejection of the above testimony concerning the first time God destroyed this world, has now no doubt lead you to rejecting the above testimony concerning the second time God will destroy this world as well. This world is exactly, the unnatural state of existence which God will terminate by His personal unveiled presence when He returns again. At which time all who have remained in the corruption of this world, will be destroyed along with it. And all who accepted Christ's salvation from that same corruption, will be delivered from  it, unto life eternal.
Again, there is nothing in the Bible that says that was not God's plan from the very beginning.  You act like you think God was blindsided by Adam and His entire plan for mankind was screwed up.  And you talk about someone else being truly in the dark.  It couldn't get much darker than you puny view of God.

Quote from: Amo on Fri Feb 09, 2024 - 20:29:54Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Let's see now... you misinterpret the Hebrew word "yom" in the Genesis Creation account and thoroughly mess up the description of God's creation of the universe; you misinterpret the Hebrew word "erets" in the Genesis Flood account and thoroughly mess up the description of Noah's flood; and now you misinterpret the Greek word "ktisis" in Paul's account of our future glory and thoroughly mess up of what  God has in store for us when Christ returns.

Quote from: Amo on Fri Feb 09, 2024 - 20:29:541Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
And you think that God's initial plans got all messed up by Adam's sin and He had to change everything accordingly.  Again, and you talk about someone else being in the dark.  Seriously, you seem to have such a low view of God, that He failed to know and understand His own creation to the point that he had to modify His initial plans.

Amo, I really do pity you having such a lowly view of God.

4WD

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Mon Feb 05, 2024 - 16:56:27You are right.

Unfortunately, money/power/politics influences what gets funding or accepted as science.  The recent Covid years are a perfect example.
In that sense, scientists and sciences are no different for the rest of humanity and their endeavors.

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Mon Feb 05, 2024 - 16:56:27And some scientists who are willing to sell out to the highest bidder for money or power become the high priests of science.
They become the high priests only to themselves. And it is not the great mass of humanity to allows that to happen, but it is the governments of the world and the major media types who provide the means for that to happen.

Amo

QuoteYet, not a word about who or what changed things. To whom did God give the power to change the world as you think it was changed.

The fact that you will ignore much of what God's word says, does not equal God's word not saying anything about it. The scriptures conclusively tell us that God himself changed this world after the fall, you just ignore this, because it does not fit your chosen deep time evolutionary faith. As you do all other scripture, which contradicts that faith. God cursed the serpent, the woman, the ground and or earth immediately after the fall. I won't bother quoting these verses for you as I have already done so many times. You will just ignore them as always. Because your faith is built more upon deep time evolution theories, than the word of God.

God's word also conclusively and emphatically states that He already destroyed this entire world once before, stating it over and again in various ways that the point might not be missed, which you also reject in favor of the "sciences so called" of this world to protect your pet theory and faith. Which event also obviously radically changed the surface, environment, life span of all living things on this planet, and apparently the size of a great many creatures upon it.

QuoteThere is absolutely nothing that says that is not precisely according to God's plan for this world.

What do you know about God's plan for this world? You reject what the Genesis account of creation plainly states regarding that act and the results of sin upon it, and cannot offer any account which accords with your deep time evolutionary faith.

It is one thing to speak of God's forethought in relation to knowing the future regarding the issues of individuality and freedom of choice, it is another altogether to insinuate that God planned the sin and degradation of His creation, which has transpired upon this planet. Careful my friend, that you do not end up accusing God of creating corruption, evil, and sin. This is the mindset and false accusation of the evil one Himself. God chose to create autonomous beings, and then provided a plan to deal with the eventual and or inevitable choice by one or some to exist in the unnatural state of being outside of Himself. Which choice ends in non existence, since God alone can create or sustain anything.

God did not plan and put in place rebellion and sin. He provided a plan of salvation from it, for the autonomous beings He created. Considering freedom of choice of such importance to true love and relationship, to risk rebellion and sin, and the consequence of even death involved. First and foremost the death of Himself that salvation may be provided to or for the fallen, and the death of the fallen as well, who would reject His salvation. That is how important freedom of choice is to our pure, righteous, and Holy God. 

QuoteAgain, there is nothing in the Bible that says that was not God's plan from the very beginning.  You act like you think God was blindsided by Adam and His entire plan for mankind was screwed up.  And you talk about someone else being truly in the dark.  It couldn't get much darker than you puny view of God.

Again, to the contrary, I have and do often refer to God's infinite forethought a sight. I just do not take the devil's unnatural and evil view of God, to the extent that God planned sin and rebellion, because that is what the devil himself chose. Blame-shifting as it were. You know, the natural view of the principalities and powers that be of this world. The one's you claim to view everything by, over and above the testimony of holy scripture. Which express the natural principles of God's will, and truth. In contrast to the natural principalities, powers, thoughts, and vain imaginings of this world in rebellion against God.

Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

1 Co 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.


QuoteAgain, there is nothing in the Bible that says that was not God's plan from the very beginning.  You act like you think God was blindsided by Adam and His entire plan for mankind was screwed up.  And you talk about someone else being truly in the dark.  It couldn't get much darker than you puny view of God.

Same bogus point and accusation. As I have stated many times, Christ was and is the LAMB OF GOD, slain from the foundation of this world. We do not disagree concerning God's forethought and foresight, which is infinite. We emphatically disagree concerning God Himself planning and being responsible for sin and corruption. This is a difference between judging all things by this "natural" world, which is in fact in an unnatural state according to scripture, or judging this world and all things according to the plainly stated word of God, which is the natural state of all God's un-fallen creation. You simply choose the former, as you yourself have stated. Your views are earthy, of this natural world, as that of the first man who fell to the temptations of the evil one. Convert, and change your views to Him who is heavenly, and overcome the temptations of the devil. Read, comprehend, understand, and accept holy scripture for what it plainly states. Stop ignoring that which does not fit into the natural mindset or sophistries of this world, and accept the plain truths of holy scripture.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

QuoteLet's see now... you misinterpret the Hebrew word "yom" in the Genesis Creation account and thoroughly mess up the description of God's creation of the universe; you misinterpret the Hebrew word "erets" in the Genesis Flood account and thoroughly mess up the description of Noah's flood; and now you misinterpret the Greek word "ktisis" in Paul's account of our future glory and thoroughly mess up of what  God has in store for us when Christ returns.

More of the same. You quote a scripture which I quoted, and then attack what that scripture plainly states, as though I said it, and declare it to be false. No rebuff from the word of God, because you can find none, just more vain imaginings from the wisdom of this world displayed by 4WD. Questioning and casting doubt upon what the word of God plainly states, from your own supposed wisdom, because the bible does not say what you believe and or preach anywhere at all.

Therefore do you also argue from the point of view concerning that which scripture does not state anywhere, rather than what it does plainly state in many places. Your arguments are arranged to cast doubt upon plainly stated bible verses, rather than establish any truth with actual scripture, because there are no scriptures to support or uphold what you have chosen to believe in the place of scripture. So be it.

QuoteAnd you think that God's initial plans got all messed up by Adam's sin and He had to change everything accordingly.  Again, and you talk about someone else being in the dark.  Seriously, you seem to have such a low view of God, that He failed to know and understand His own creation to the point that he had to modify His initial plans.

Amo, I really do pity you having such a lowly view of God.

And again. Why do you simply quote a scripture which I quoted which says just what I claim it is saying, and then make some false accusation concerning my supposed ignorance of the foresight or knowledge of God, as though that negates the scripture I quoted or the plain simple point it makes? Your whole argument seems to be built upon the faulty premise that I do not understand God's infinite foresight and knowledge. Itself built upon the faulty idea that God planned and therefore basically executed evil, corruption, and sin Himself. Which idea is found nowhere in scripture at all of course, since your wisdom comes from this natural world, as you yourself have proclaimed. Which is why I suppose, your arguments are not built upon what the word of God actually says, but rather that which it does not actually say or address. That is to say, the faulty and vain imaginings of fallen humanity. So be it. God Himself has allowed for such freedom, though there will come a day. I exhort you, to abandon the supposed wisdom of this  "natural" world, and place your faith in that which God's word does actually say and plainly express, according to heavenly wisdom.

1 Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Amo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXk6ZrGxtrc

Good video about evolutionists changing the definition of words and creating new categories according to the "science so called" of their own vain imaginations. I guess this might be where the left gets their crazy statements such as follow the science, when actual science does not confirm their vain imaginings at all.

4WD

Quote from: Amo on Sat Feb 10, 2024 - 13:59:32The fact that you will ignore much of what God's word says, does not equal God's word not saying anything about it. The scriptures conclusively tell us that God himself changed this world after the fall, you just ignore this, because it does not fit your chosen deep time evolutionary faith. As you do all other scripture, which contradicts that faith. God cursed the serpent, the woman, the ground and or earth immediately after the fall. I won't bother quoting these verses for you as I have already done so many times. You will just ignore them as always. Because your faith is built more upon deep time evolution theories, than the word of God.
If there are scriptures that conclusively tell us that God, Himself, changed this world after the fall, then post it and we can discuss it.  You have not posted it already because there are no such scriptures.  It is only in your demented thinking that any such scriptures even exist.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Feb 10, 2024 - 13:59:32God's word also conclusively and emphatically states that He already destroyed this entire world once before, stating it over and again in various ways that the point might not be missed, which you also reject in favor of the "sciences so called" of this world to protect your pet theory and faith. Which event also obviously radically changed the surface, environment, life span of all living things on this planet, and apparently the size of a great many creatures upon it.
Again, only in your seriously biased thinking.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Feb 10, 2024 - 13:59:32What do you know about God's plan for this world? You reject what the Genesis account of creation plainly states regarding that act and the results of sin upon it, and cannot offer any account which accords with your deep time evolutionary faith.
You are wrong.  I accept what the Genesis account of creation says and the results of the sin against God. But I don't accept your interpretation of the Genesis account which stands against God's own description according to the very laws of nature that God, Himself, put into the functioning of that creation. God's plan and creation was perfect from the very beginning and did not need to be changed as you think it was.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Feb 10, 2024 - 13:59:32It is one thing to speak of God's forethought in relation to knowing the future regarding the issues of individuality and freedom of choice, it is another altogether to insinuate that God planned the sin and degradation of His creation, which has transpired upon this planet. Careful my friend, that you do not end up accusing God of creating corruption, evil, and sin. This is the mindset and false accusation of the evil one Himself. God chose to create autonomous beings, and then provided a plan to deal with the eventual and or inevitable choice by one or some to exist in the unnatural state of being outside of Himself. Which choice ends in non existence, since God alone can create or sustain anything.
God didn't plan the sin and the results of that sin.  But God definitely planned for the sin and the results of that sin. And that plan did not include changing the functioning of the entire universe because of sin.
Quote from: Amo on Sat Feb 10, 2024 - 13:59:32Again, to the contrary, I have and do often refer to God's infinite forethought a sight. I just do not take the devil's unnatural and evil view of God, to the extent that God planned sin and rebellion, because that is what the devil himself chose. Blame-shifting as it were.
Interesting, because I think your interpretation and view is precisely what the devil wants from you. 

Quote from: Amo on Sat Feb 10, 2024 - 13:59:32Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
It is you and those who hold your view of the universe that fail miserably to understand the invisible things of God that are clearly seen, being understood by studying the very universe that He made. The Psalmist declared that "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork" (Psa 19:1) But you will have none of that and instead insert your own warped views of God's handiwork.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Feb 10, 2024 - 13:59:321 Co 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.....
Amo, that describes you to a tee. The knowledge of this world derived from God's own presentation of this world is not the wisdom that is the foolishness spoken of in that passage.  The wisdom that is foolishness is that religiosity and philosophy which stands resolutely against all the glory of God that the heavens declare that is falsely inserted into God's word.

4WD

Quote from: Amo on Sat Feb 10, 2024 - 13:59:321 Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Amo, that entire passage of 1 Corinthians 2 is Paul's declaration and defense of his own (and the other apostles and prophets) divine inspiration.  It has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject at hand. The "us" in that passage are the apostles and prophets of God who are recipients of that divine inspiration.  That is not you or me. 

Amo

I leave you to your own understanding 4WD.

Amo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zignS602-f8

Another good one by Answers In Genesis Canada. Concerning the realities of the extremely numerous fossils found all over the earth.

4WD

Quote from: Amo on Sun Feb 11, 2024 - 20:53:50https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zignS602-f8

Another good one by Answers In Genesis Canada. Concerning the realities of the extremely numerous fossils found all over the earth.
It is indeed another one by Answers in Genesis Canada, but not a very good one. Aside from what the speaker thinks has been demonstrated (scientifically) in a lab, the conclusion is based entirely on the notion that there was a global flood.  And that definitely has not been demonstrated scientifically to have occurred.

Such YEC theorists complain about the lack of any "intermediate" specie fossils and the precious few fossils generally in support of the evolutionist views and then put up immeasurably fewer data in support of their own views. The two sided, really two-faced, arguments are weak to say the least and ridiculous to be fair.

Wycliffes_Shillelagh

Quote from: 4WD on Tue Feb 13, 2024 - 04:54:49It is indeed another one by Answers in Genesis Canada, but not a very good one. Aside from what the speaker thinks has been demonstrated (scientifically) in a lab, the conclusion is based entirely on the notion that there was a global flood.  And that definitely has not been demonstrated scientifically to have occurred.

Such YEC theorists complain about the lack of any "intermediate" specie fossils and the precious few fossils generally in support of the evolutionist views and then put up immeasurably fewer data in support of their own views. The two sided, really two-faced, arguments are weak to say the least and ridiculous to be fair.
I agree.

An argument for a lack of intermediate fossils is dishonest.  There are quite a few of them now, and the most important ones aren't even bones - they're microbes embedded in rock.

Amo

How about some links to articles or such revealing all of these "intermediate" species fossils. To be examined and speculated upon, as you do with the many videos and links I supply. Or are you not interested in being critiqued, as you always do that which i share. Are your views above being critiqued by those of other opinions? Let's see these evidences please.

4WD

Quote from: Amo on Fri Feb 16, 2024 - 08:57:52How about some links to articles or such revealing all of these "intermediate" species fossils. To be examined and speculated upon, as you do with the many videos and links I supply. Or are you not interested in being critiqued, as you always do that which i share. Are your views above being critiqued by those of other opinions? Let's see these evidences please.
Amo, as I have said on several occasions, I am not concerned with what you believe or don't believe.  I am not concerned with what others believe about creation.  What I object to is the YEC trying on the one hand to discredit the current science and scientific views that support, almost universally, the non-YEC view and then trying to claim that science really does support the YEC view.  When the YEC makes the claim that radiometric dating techniques do not produce accurate measures of elapsed time, it is much the same as if a non-YEC scientist tried to make the claim that the Hebrew word "yom" never means a 24-hour day.  Both are wrong.

If you want to believe that God created this universe 6 ,000 to 10,000 years ago or so, that is your prerogative to do so, but do not try to discredit valid science to support what you believe.

Amo

Quote from: 4WD on Fri Feb 16, 2024 - 09:30:07Amo, as I have said on several occasions, I am not concerned with what you believe or don't believe.  I am not concerned with what others believe about creation.  What I object to is the YEC trying on the one hand to discredit the current science and scientific views that support, almost universally, the non-YEC view and then trying to claim that science really does support the YEC view.  When the YEC makes the claim that radiometric dating techniques do not produce accurate measures of elapsed time, it is much the same as if a non-YEC scientist tried to make the claim that the Hebrew word "yom" never means a 24-hour day.  Both are wrong.

If you want to believe that God created this universe 6 ,000 to 10,000 years ago or so, that is your prerogative to do so, but do not try to discredit valid science to support what you believe.

I'll take that as a no, you are not interested in examining more than one view of that which you consider to be valid science. Nevertheless the nature of "science" to a great degree, has been a long record of valid science one day, becoming invalidated the next. As data and therefore understanding advances.

A major difference between your scenario concerning radiometric dating techniques and the word "yom" in scripture is context. We have the context within which the word "yom" is used within the scriptures right before us to examine. Which context of course, helps us to determine the proper meaning, whether figurative or literal. Not to mention other scriptures which either back up said conclusions or not.

We have no such observable context, concerning what happened or not long long ago. Scientifically, the context for determining such matters must include certain presumptions based upon faith in theories, not realities right in front of our faces. The scriptures themselves do address one of the problems humanity has and would continue to have, relative to this dilemma though. It states that many would presume that they could judge things about the distant past, by that which they observed concerning the present. Warning that such was a major mistake, because what exists at present, is not like that which existed in the past. The world having been destroyed once already, by the judgment of God. Therefore the scripture states, are many lead astray from the truth.

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.




4WD

Quote from: Amo on Fri Feb 16, 2024 - 20:27:02I'll take that as a no, you are not interested in examining more than one view of that which you consider to be valid science.
Valid science is not really a matter of one view versus another view. Valid science is not really a matter of "views" at all.  It is a matter of test and evaluation, preferably by a whole host of sceptics.

Quote from: Amo on Fri Feb 16, 2024 - 20:27:02Nevertheless the nature of "science" to a great degree, has been a long record of valid science one day, becoming invalidated the next. As data and therefore understanding advances.
That is not the case at all. Einstein's theory of Relativity, for example, did not invalidate Newton's laws of motion.  It established limits of application and then showed how Newton's laws were indeed a subset of Einstein's theory.  That has been the typical advancement of science.

Quote from: Amo on Fri Feb 16, 2024 - 20:27:02A major difference between your scenario concerning radiometric dating techniques and the word "yom" in scripture is context. We have the context within which the word "yom" is used within the scriptures right before us to examine. Which context of course, helps us to determine the proper meaning, whether figurative or literal. Not to mention other scriptures which either back up said conclusions or not.
There are books written based upon the context within which the word "yom" is used that disagree with your interpretation.

Quote from: Amo on Fri Feb 16, 2024 - 20:27:02We have no such observable context, concerning what happened or not long long ago. Scientifically, the context for determining such matters must include certain presumptions based upon faith in theories, not realities right in front of our faces.
That is not true at all. The theories and laws of science are not limited to only the present and future.  They are valid for the past as well. In all but a very few theories and laws of science are perfectly valid for time, T, being either positive or negative.

Quote from: Amo on Fri Feb 16, 2024 - 20:27:02The scriptures themselves do address one of the problems humanity has and would continue to have, relative to this dilemma though. It states that many would presume that they could judge things about the distant past, by that which they observed concerning the present. Warning that such was a major mistake, because what exists at present, is not like that which existed in the past. The world having been destroyed once already, by the judgment of God. Therefore the scripture states, are many lead astray from the truth.
I definitely think that your assessment or interpretation of 2 Peter 3:1-13 is more than a little suspect. The issue that Peter is addressing there is the reality of the second coming of Jesus and the end of this universe as it currently exists.  Beyond that, I am not sure what it is that you think Peter is saying.

Hobie

Quote from: 4WD on Fri Feb 16, 2024 - 09:30:07Amo, as I have said on several occasions, I am not concerned with what you believe or don't believe.  I am not concerned with what others believe about creation.  What I object to is the YEC trying on the one hand to discredit the current science and scientific views that support, almost universally, the non-YEC view and then trying to claim that science really does support the YEC view.  When the YEC makes the claim that radiometric dating techniques do not produce accurate measures of elapsed time, it is much the same as if a non-YEC scientist tried to make the claim that the Hebrew word "yom" never means a 24-hour day.  Both are wrong.

If you want to believe that God created this universe 6 ,000 to 10,000 years ago or so, that is your prerogative to do so, but do not try to discredit valid science to support what you believe.
It always seems to come down to what God says and what man says, so the issue is who do you choose...

4WD

Quote from: Hobie on Wed Feb 21, 2024 - 06:24:42It always seems to come down to what God says and what man says, so the issue is who do you choose...
No, that is not it at all.  It comes down to what you think God means in what He says versus what someone else thinks God means in what He says. That is, it is all a matter of interpretation. That is true of just about everything in the Bible.

Amo

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Feb 21, 2024 - 11:36:11No, that is not it at all.  It comes down to what you think God means in what He says versus what someone else thinks God means in what He says. That is, it is all a matter of interpretation. That is true of just about everything in the Bible.

The exact opposite of what God's word teaches. As though each individual has their own truth. As the world ever increasingly preaches today.

Pro 14:12  There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

God's word is not unstable or changeable according to the dictates of fallen humanity. If it is, then what a sorry condition we are in, seeing that we will be judged by such shaky and unstable ground. Nevertheless, God's word assures us otherwise.

Pro 30:5  Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Isa 40:6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: 7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. 8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said,
It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.


Jhn 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

2Ti 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

No, the word of God is not subject to human interpretation. Humanity is subject to, and will be judged by the word of God. It is our place to seek out and believe the true meaning of scripture through prayer and guidance from the Holy Spirit of God. Whom our Lord Jesus will send to all who ask, who will place their faith in scripture above all other supposed authorities or testimonies in and of this fallen world.




4WD

Quote from: Amo on Sun Feb 25, 2024 - 13:16:402Ti 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

No, the word of God is not subject to human interpretation. Humanity is subject to, and will be judged by the word of God. It is our place to seek out and believe the true meaning of scripture through prayer and guidance from the Holy Spirit of God. Whom our Lord Jesus will send to all who ask, who will place their faith in scripture above all other supposed authorities or testimonies in and of this fallen world.
As you so often do, you completely misinterpret and misunderstand what is being said. Communication at every level depends absolutely on both the author or speaker and the reader or listener.  Interpretation is an integral part of understanding.  Clearly, since the word of God is communication from God to us, then our interpretation is inherently in play.  As I have noted on several occasions, anything you say, except a direct quote of a passage of scripture, is nothing more than your interpretation of that passage. It cannot be otherwise. Therefore when you talk about "this fallen world" or how much change has happened because of "the fall", since there is no passage speaking directly about either, then in is nothing more than your own personal interpretation.

Amo

No sir, individual or private interpretation is not part of the intended scenario.

2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The Holy scriptures come to us via the Holy Spirit of God. They are of no private interpretation, but inspired by God, to be interpreted under the guidance of God. The Holy Spirit of God, who is also the Spirit of Truth.

Jhn 14:15  If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


Truth does not come by private interpretation of the scriptures from the minds of fallen humanity, or for your sake I shall the minds of sinners. It comes by way of guidance from the Holy Spirit of God alone.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Once the parents of this world listened to and believed the fallen one, Lucifer, they became like the one they chose to believe and obey over and above God. They became fallen, like the devil whom they listened to. Now as sinners, we naturally put ourselves before all else, even God. We must be taught otherwise, and then choose to be otherwise, by the Spirit and or Word of God. To battle the impulse to put self first.

Whereas no doubt, the un-fallen angels and beings see and perceive all things in the truly natural order, of God first in everything. As He truly and naturally is as the Creator and Sustainer of all.

 

4WD

Quote from: Amo on Mon Feb 26, 2024 - 12:40:25No sir, individual or private interpretation is not part of the intended scenario.

2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The Holy scriptures come to us via the Holy Spirit of God. They are of no private interpretation, but inspired by God, to be interpreted under the guidance of God. The Holy Spirit of God, who is also the Spirit of Truth.

Jhn 14:15  If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


Truth does not come by private interpretation of the scriptures from the minds of fallen humanity, or for your sake I shall the minds of sinners. It comes by way of guidance from the Holy Spirit of God alone.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Once the parents of this world listened to and believed the fallen one, Lucifer, they became like the one they chose to believe and obey over and above God. They became fallen, like the devil whom they listened to. Now as sinners, we naturally put ourselves before all else, even God. We must be taught otherwise, and then choose to be otherwise, by the Spirit and or Word of God. To battle the impulse to put self first.

Whereas no doubt, the un-fallen angels and beings see and perceive all things in the truly natural order, of God first in everything. As He truly and naturally is as the Creator and Sustainer of all.
Oh don't be so naive and silly, Amo.  When you hear or read anything, what you understand is, by definition, your own interpretation of what was spoken or written -- PERIOD.  That is how any communication works.

Amo

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Feb 26, 2024 - 18:25:44Oh don't be so naive and silly, Amo.  When you hear or read anything, what you understand is, by definition, your own interpretation of what was spoken or written -- PERIOD.  That is how any communication works.

Yes, I know you have very little faith, concerning many things which God's word plainly states.

Gen 40:8  And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.

Pro 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings. 7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Dan 2:27 Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, shew unto the king; 28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these; 29 As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass. 30 But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart.

1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Psa 37:30 The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment. 31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide. 32 The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him. 33 The LORD will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged.

Psa 111:10  The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

Pro 2:1 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee; 2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding; 3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding; 4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures; 5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God. 6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding. 7 He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly. 8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.

Pro 9:10  The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Pro 15:33  The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility.

Jer 8:8  How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain. 9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them?

Jer 51:14 The LORD of hosts hath sworn by himself, saying, Surely I will fill thee with men, as with caterpillers; and they shall lift up a shout against thee. 15 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding. 16 When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens; and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth: he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures. 17 Every man is brutish by his knowledge; every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them. 18 They are vanity, the work of errors: in the time of their visitation they shall perish.

1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Col 2:2  That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; 3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. 7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. 8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. 8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. 9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. 10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. 11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


No sir, we are not left to, nor should we seek to establish our own interpretations of holy scripture. Wisdom is of the word of God, not the endless interpretations of that word by humanity. Correct understanding of biblical teaching is to be according to the law and testimony of the same, not the endless speculations and interpretations from the mind of sinners. The Holy Spirit of God is given to those seeking truth, who submit to the word of God as the final authority. The ten commandments of God were spoken to humanity from the mouth of God Himself, and written for us with His own finger. All who reject their testimony and or authority, reject the truths of God, and are left in the darkness of their own choosing.

Isa 8:11  For the LORD spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying, 12 Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid. 13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. 14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken. 16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples. 17 And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him. 18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. 19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? 20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. 21 And they shall pass through it, hardly bestead and hungry: and it shall come to pass, that when they shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves, and curse their king and their God, and look upward. 22 And they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness.

Those who reject the law of God, and He who came in the flesh to establish it, even Christ Jesus our Lord who was a rock of offense and stumbling block to many of the house of Israel, will be driven to darkness.

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,...........
8  Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

4WD

Quote from: Amo on Wed Feb 28, 2024 - 11:59:20Yes, I know you have very little faith, concerning many things which God's word plainly states.
And that from an SDA whose faith probably resides as much in Ellan G. White as in Jesus Christ.

Amo

Quote from: 4WD on Thu Feb 29, 2024 - 04:02:04And that from an SDA whose faith probably resides as much in Ellan G. White as in Jesus Christ.

If I do, I will be left in the darkness I have chosen, as all who reject truth in favor of personal preferences are.

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