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Creation scientists

Started by Amo, Sat Aug 10, 2019 - 12:47:21

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Alan

Quote from: Amo on Wed Jun 12, 2024 - 09:50:01Choose you this day whom you will serve. The God of holy scripture, or the god defined by the man made theory of evolution. For they are not the same at all. 



The God of holy scripture used evolution as a means to progress living species. There is no trickery or deception there, it's as clear as the nose on your face. 

4WD

Quote from: Amo on Wed Jun 12, 2024 - 09:50:01Choose you this day whom you will serve. The God of holy scripture, or the god defined by the man made theory of evolution. For they are not the same at all.
Says the one who serves the god defined by man-manipulated and likely false translation/interpretation of a few Hebrew words.

Amo

Yea, we have not, do not, and likely will not agree upon this. Not until God sets all things straight. I of course believe you are the ones not seeing the obvious truths plainly stated in God's word, which should be as clear to you, as the noses on your faces. And yes, I do agree with the plainly stated creation account, fourth commandment of God, and other scripture which back the six day creation account up. Which all translations to date, have kept intact as far as I know.

Amo


4WD

#2174
Quote from: Amo on Sat Jun 15, 2024 - 10:44:58https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESZNrDv1Xgo
Nothing in that video proved anything about evolution one way or another.  All it did was highlight the apparent mistake of one or two evolutionists.  It was proven long ago that some "theologians" made a mistake about the heliocentricity of our solar system.  Does that mean that the ancient Hebrew texts of the Bible discussing the movement of the sun are proven wrong and the entire Bible wrong along with that?  I don't think so.  And the video certainly didn't prove anything about evolution either.

Such an attempt at disproving evolution are truly a joke displaying the ignorance of the authors.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Jun 15, 2024 - 10:44:58https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yckBNN-Ikfc

A couple more good videos.
So Noah's descendents somehow migrated to Australia.  And that what, about 2500 BC? Yeah right. ::crackup::  rofl  [/quote]

Amo

This is post #2175 of this thread 4WD. You can act like the video you just addressed is the only video on this thread pointing out the errors made by evolutionists over the course of their ever evolving story, but there are many such videos among the thousands posted here. For all who would care to see, to see.

No, it is not a joke to expose the very many times evolutionists have been wrong, while demonstrating the same level of undue confidence and ridicule you have just demonstrated. Concering the very things they were completely wrong about.

Yes, I do believe that human beings created in the image of God, were capable of reaching any portion of the earth they so desired. God Himself intervening to separate them, and scattered them over the earth, at the Tower of Babel. Because that is what holy scripture testifies.

Gen 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. 2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. 3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. 4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. 5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth. 

I simply believe the testimony of holy scripture for what it plainly states, you simply do not. I do not apply symbolism or allegory to any scripture, but those which make it obvious that they are intended as such. Not based upon my own reasoning or understanding, or that of others, but only if scripture itself indicates or blatantly ascribes such itself. This in order to avoid the pitfalls of private interpretations.




4WD

Quote from: Amo on Sat Jun 15, 2024 - 19:23:47No, it is not a joke to expose the very many times evolutionists have been wrong, while demonstrating the same level of undue confidence and ridicule you have just demonstrated.
And how about the many times anti-evolutionists have been wrong? And you are certainly not lacking in demonstrating undue confidence and ridicule of all things scientific.

I agree there is so much of the universe and its workings that we don't know, but there is also so much that we do know.  So yes, so much of the anti-evolutionist videos is a joke.

Rella

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Jun 16, 2024 - 06:10:14And how about the many times anti-evolutionists have been wrong? And you are certainly not lacking in demonstrating undue confidence and ridicule of all things scientific.

I agree there is so much of the universe and its workings that we don't know, but there is also so much that we do know.  So yes, so much of the anti-evolutionist videos is a joke.

Goodmorning, 4WD...

Can you tell us who logically believe in what we see as an earlier start to all things "earth" why people like you believe in evolution?

I only ever see written YEC people and evolutionists.. as if there is some cosmic force that dictates if it is not mentioned in Gen 1 and 2
under what is commonly referred to as the "creation story"... it had to have evolved from something else. 

Is it because you believe that the things Moses... or whoever the Genesis author was... was inspired to write just that actual things that came about at that time?????

Just for a little info.... not asking you or anyone to agree... You  might want to give consideration to the "what if" side of things is something that came from Enoch's 10 week prophecy.

https://bibleprophecyandtruth.com/eNewsLetters/enoch10weeksProphecy112220.html
QuoteThis prophecy goes through the entire history of the world and all the way to the end of the Millennial reign of Christ.

Each week is 700 years for a total of 7000 years. We're at 6000 years right now, which is the point in time where God says He will return, take those that love Him to be with Him, and destroy the wicked and begin a 1000 year reign where He will rule with a rod of iron.

There are some different theories about this prophecy. Some think it is 1000 years for each "week" and that the first week is the creation week,and the last week is into eternity.
That one does not fit all of the timelines and stated events well at all. It follows much more accurately that it is about 700 years for each "week". Each week might not be exactly 700 years, but each week is an era or period of time in the history of the world from creation through the millenial reign. As I always say, I'm not stating any of this as fact, just that my studies lead me to believe this to be true. I leave it to you to decide for yourself.

My take on this is, just like Daniels 70 weeks are really weeks of years, IE: 7 years for each week, it makes much more sense that a "week" here in Enoch also represents a multiple of 7, IE: 7 centuries for each week. 1000 years, or other speculated timeframes that are being taught out there don't make sense!

Anyway... we have been given the story for "our" existence from our
genealogy pedigrees at least back to Noah and before that if you trace to Adam.

I do hope that the YEC people reading this might try to expand their thoughts to what that first week... in our history ... truly might have been.


4WD

Quote from: Rella on Sun Jun 16, 2024 - 07:19:13Goodmorning, 4WD...

Can you tell us who logically believe in what we see as an earlier start to all things "earth" why people like you believe in evolution?

I only ever see written YEC people and evolutionists.. as if there is some cosmic force that dictates if it is not mentioned in Gen 1 and 2
under what is commonly referred to as the "creation story"... it had to have evolved from something else. 

Is it because you believe that the things Moses... or whoever the Genesis author was... was inspired to write just that actual things that came about at that time?????

Just for a little info.... not asking you or anyone to agree... You  might want to give consideration to the "what if" side of things is something that came from Enoch's 10 week prophecy.

https://bibleprophecyandtruth.com/eNewsLetters/enoch10weeksProphecy112220.html
Anyway... we have been given the story for "our" existence from our
genealogy pedigrees at least back to Noah and before that if you trace to Adam.

I do hope that the YEC people reading this might try to expand their thoughts to what that first week... in our history ... truly might have been.



I am reading a very interesting book;

Gould, Roy R.. UNIVERSE IN CREATION: A New Understanding of the Big Bang and the Emergence of Life . Harvard University Press. 

I find it interesting because, while he does not express a belief in God or a belief in God's role as creator, he speaks a lot about "nature's plan".  If you but substitute the words "God's plan" every time that he mentions nature's plan, it makes a very interesting presentation of just how all of this has come about.

I am not quite finished reading it, only being about 3/4 of the way through it.  The first half is about the brute universe.  The last half is almost wholly about life.  I think you might find it interesting and could answer your question about why people like me think that evolution may very well be an explanation of the way in which God has brought this whole universe into being, including life.

One of the things that I like about the book, is that while he does not attribute any of this to God, he makes no attempt to deny that God could be involved.  That is he admits that we have no scientific answer to the origin of the big bang or the origin to life and living things.  He does, as I noted, speak of an all-encompassing "nature's plan" is instrumental in what has and is happening. And while it is presented strictly in the present scientific view of things, it is really an easy read even for those not steeped in such science.

I am a fan of Kindle.  His book is reasonably priced at about $16  in Amazon Kindle.

As to your point about Enoch's prophecy, I think that any attempt to establish an end-time dating procedure is in error.  Jesus told us that no such knowledge exists except in the mind of God.

My own view of such is that it took about 4,000 years to get from Adam to Christ, and that not counting the 13+ billion years to get to Adam. I find it difficult to think that God would end everything in 2,000 to 3,000 years since Christ.  But even that is seriously in question given that physical time is wholly unimportant to God who exists eternally.

Amo

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Jun 16, 2024 - 06:10:14And how about the many times anti-evolutionists have been wrong? And you are certainly not lacking in demonstrating undue confidence and ridicule of all things scientific.

I agree there is so much of the universe and its workings that we don't know, but there is also so much that we do know.  So yes, so much of the anti-evolutionist videos is a joke.

The main difference is this which I will state again. YEC's admit of their faith based views, concerning that which neither Creationists nor Evolutionists can or do know. Which they simply cannot observe, concerning the past, and the how's of our existence. Neither do YEC's really try to explain how these things happened scientifically. Rather examining what is and what can be observed, as compared to the standard of God's word, which supports biblical testimony.

Theistic or Christian evolutionists delve heavily into the how it all came about, extremely limiting the power of God along the way. Bringing Him down to their own understanding and or image in the process. Not to mention contradicting many a thus saith the Lord, along the way. They do simply refuse several conclusive statements of holy scripture. Thus basically declaring them false, and damaging the authority and or authenticity of holy scripture.

The theory deep time evolution directly contradicts the fourth commandment, and the following testimony of a prophet of God.

Psa 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth. 5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD. 6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,............
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


The above word of the Lord is right, and truth. Which those who choose their own faith apart from the plain testimony of the word of God reject. While choosing to reduce God's testimony and therefore power also, to the highly uninformed limits of their own understanding or vain imaginings. But God never has been, is not, and never will be limited by the vain imaginations of fallen humanity.

I simply suggest that Christian deep time evolutionists, stop trying to conform God to humanities extremely limited understanding, and be transformed by the testimony and power of God's word. Making the word of God the standard, not their own speculations in relation to it.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

We will be judged by the word of God for a reason, it is right, and the unadulterated truth. We exist and are defined by and in relation to it, not the other way around.

Amo

QuoteI do hope that the YEC people reading this might try to expand their thoughts to what that first week... in our history ... truly might have been.

Why should we speculate above and or beyond the word of God? Or doubt what the scripture plainly states? Which God Himself spoke audibly to Israel, and wrote with His finger in stone twice? We choose not to doubt several different testimonies of holy scripture to the same effect, that God created the world in six days. Or the testimony that God's word is powerful enough to bring about that which He speaks, within the time frame He testifies it did. He simply is not limited and or defined in any way shape or form, by what His creations think. To the contrary, they are completely defined and or limited by the word of God.

Rella

Quote from: Amo on Sun Jun 16, 2024 - 14:28:41Why should we speculate above and or beyond the word of God? Or doubt what the scripture plainly states? Which God Himself spoke audibly to Israel, and wrote with His finger in stone twice? We choose not to doubt several different testimonies of holy scripture to the same effect, that God created the world in six days. Or the testimony that God's word is powerful enough to bring about that which He speaks, within the time frame He testifies it did. He simply is not limited and or defined in any way shape or form, by what His creations think. To the contrary, they are completely defined and or limited by the word of God.

Amo

" To the contrary, they are completely defined and or limited by the word of God."

You mean by the word of God that has been translated and retranslated to the point that there is not one commentary that can be relied on for the truth but a whole collection of commentaries of explanations on virtually every thing that is in the Holy Bible?

Or perhaps you mean by the words of an important person in ones basic religion... such as Frankie to the RCC, or Brigham Young to the Mormons?

WE are told in 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Does this verse not instruct believers to make every effort to present themselves to God as approved, unashamed workers who handle the word of truth accurately.

Well, how exactly does one do that? You know as well as I that the RCC still teaches Mary was a virgin throughout her life... even though multiple translations have said Joseph did not know her until;..........
And they argue throughout that church that until or till means he never knew her. Those people will argue and nothing you or I  or the corner soap box minister can say that will change their minds.

But that does not make it settled the way it has always been written.

Before
you read the following I will tell you I am not hnging on his words.
There are those on here who will poopoo whatever the man teaches... kind of similar to how people go after Ellen.. but he is not a prophet.. just a learned minister.

I have never said I am in with the evolutionists, because I do not believe in evolution. I also am not a 13 billion years person.
I think too much of the big bang has been made up but I can uncategorical say that everything that came into being before Adam
simply makes no sense that it only took 120 hours... when the description of Day 1 starts " And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

You , if you know who he is, will not like what is written in the link I quote below. It was written by R. C. Sproul an American theologian and pastor (1939–2017)

Robert Charles Sproul was an American Reformed theologian and ordained pastor. He was the founder and chairman of Ligonier Ministries and could be heard daily on the Renewing Your Mind radio broadcast in the United States and internationally.

I do not think that it is necessarily wise to out of hand discount anything that anyone says... if they have an idea.

To me... The Holy Bible was written for "us" as instructional and our handbook as well as history book. I have for longer then I can remember had a strong feeling that We... mankind... was made for a reason... Part of which is for our Heavenly Father and another part which I wont go into here.

Assuming Adam... who is in our downline pedigree... came into being so you, and Hobiwe, and 4WD and RB and all here.. including me could be here at this time.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with the base origins of this planet we live on. The two do not necessarily need to be tied at the hip.

You of all people here who provides all those pictures and videos on what is said about the flood and giants and those extraordinary buildings
that are being found from those hugh stones .. do you honestly believe that they are about 6000 years old or less? They exist. You provide proof.

Also ... I still am working on the verse that follows the 7th day rest one. Gen 2: 4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

Please explain to me how there could be generations plural in a day? What was meant by this. There could not have been generations in a week.
Ive said enough... here is the link, copied in full , thankfully because
I can here.

No bolding or emphasis from me.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/biblical-reasons-to-doubt-the-creation-days-were-24-hour-periods/

QuoteBiblical Reasons to Doubt the Creation Days Were 24-Hour Periods

"When people ask me how old the earth is, I tell them I don't know—because I don't."

Contrary to what is often implied or claimed by young-earth creationists, the Bible nowhere directly teaches the age of the earth.

Rather, it is a deduction from a combination of beliefs, such as (1) Genesis 1:1 is not the actual act of creation but rather a summary of or title over Genesis 1:2-2:3; (2) the creation week of Genesis 1:2-2:3 is referring to the act of creation itself; (3) each "day" (Heb. yom) of the creation week is referring to an 24-hour period of time (reinforced by the statement in Exodus 20:11); (4) an old-earth geology would necessarily entail macroevolution, hominids, and animal death before the Fall—each of which contradicts what Scripture tells us; and (5) the approximate age of the earth can be reconstructed backward from the genealogical time-markers in Genesis.

These five points may all be true, but I think it's helpful to understand that the question "how old is the earth?" is not something directly answered in Scripture but rather deduced from these and other points.

It is commonly suggested that this is such a "plain reading" of Scripture—so obviously clear and true—that the only people who doubt it are those who have been influenced by Charles Darwin and his neo-Darwinian successors. The claim is often made that no one doubted this reading until after Darwin. (This just isn't true—from ancient rabbis to Augustine to B. B. Warfield—but that's another post for another time.)

So it may come as a surprise to some contemporary conservatives that some of the great stalwarts of the faith were not convinced of this interpretation.

Augustine, writing in the early fifth century, noted, "What kind of days these were it is extremely difficult, or perhaps impossible, to determine" (City of God 11.7).

J. Gresham Machen (1881-1937), author of the 20th century's best critique of theological liberalism, wrote, "It is certainly not necessary to think that the six days spoken of in that first chapter of the Bible are intended to be six days of twenty four hours each."

Old Testament scholar Edward J. Young (1907-1968), an eloquent defender of inerrancy, said that regarding  the length of the creation days, "That is a question which is difficult to answer. Indications are not lacking that they may have been longer than the days we now know, but the Scripture itself does not speak as clearly as one might like."

Theologian Carl F. H. Henry (1913-2003), one of the most important theologians in the second half of the twentieth century and a defender of Scriptural clarity and authority, argued that "Faith in an inerrant Bible does not rest on the recency or antiquity of the earth. . . . The Bible does not require belief in six literal 24-hour creation days on the basis of Genesis 1-2. . . . it is gratuitous to insist that twenty-four hour days are involved or intended."

Old Testament scholar and Hebrew linguist Gleason Archer (1916-2004), a strong advocate for inerrancy, wrote "On the basis of internal evidence, it is this writer's conviction that yôm in Genesis could not have been intended by the Hebrew author to mean a literal twenty-four hour day."

I want to suggest there are some good, textual reasons—in the creation account itself—for questioning the exegesis that insists on the days as strict 24 hour periods. Am I as certain of this as I am of the resurrection of Christ? Definitely not. But in some segments of the church, I fear that we've built an exegetical "fence around the Torah," fearful that if we question any aspect of young-earth dogmatics we have opened the gate to liberalism. The defenders of inerrancy above show that this is not the case. And a passion for sola Scriptura provides us with the humility and willingness to go back to the text again to see if these things are so.

What follows are brief sketches of biblical reasons to doubt young-earth exegesis.

1. Genesis 1:1 Describes the Actual Act of Creation Out of Nothing and Is Not a Title or a Summary

Genesis 1:1 tells us that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

This is not a title or a summary of the narrative that follows. Rather, it is a background statement that describes how the universe came to be.

In Genesis 1:1, "created" is in the perfect tense, and when a perfect verb is used at the beginning of a unit in Hebrew narrative, it usually functions to describe an event that precedes the main storyline (see Gen. 16:1, 22:1, 24:1 for comparison).

Furthermore, the Hebrew conjunction at the beginning of Genesis 1:2 supports this reading.

If Genesis 1:1 is merely a title or a summary, then Genesis does not teach creation out of nothing. But I think Genesis 1:1 is describing the actual act of God creating "heaven and earth" (a merism for the universe, indicating totality—like "high and low," "east and west," "near and far," "rising up and sitting down," "seen and unseen"). Genesis 1:1 describes the creation of everything "visible and invisible" (Col. 1:16), with Genesis 1:2ff. focusing upon the "visible."

After the act of creation in Genesis 1:1, the main point of the narrative (in Gen. 1:3-2:3) seems to be the making and preparation of the earth for its inhabitants, with a highly patterned structure of forming and filling.


2. The Earth, Darkness, and Water Are Created Before "The First Day"

In Genesis 1:1, God creates the "heavens and the earth." (In Joel 3:15-16 we see that "heavens" encompasses the sun, the moon, and the stars.) Then in Genesis 1:2 we are told that this earth that was created is without form and void, that darkness covers the waters, and that the Spirit is hovering over it.

If Genesis 1:1 is not the act of creation, then where do the earth, the darkness, and the waters come from that are referred to in Genesis 1:2 before God's first fiat? Further, if the sun is created in day four (Gen. 1:16), why do we have light already appearing in Genesis 1:3?

It helps to remember that in Hebrew there are distinct words for create and make. When the Hebrew construction let there be is used in the phrase "Let your steadfast love . . . be upon us" (Ps. 33:22; cf. Ps. 90:17; Ps. 119:76), this obviously isn't a request for God's love to begin to exist, but rather to function in a certain way. Similarly, if the sun, moon, stars, and lights were created in Genesis 1:1, then they were made or appointed for a particular function in Genesis 1:13, 14, 16—namely, to mark the set time for worship on man's calendar.

3. The Seventh "Day" Is Not 24 Hours Long

In Genesis 2:2-3 where we are told that "on the seventh day [yom] God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day [yom] from all his work that he had done. So God blessed the seventh day [yom] and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation." The question we have to ask here is: was God's creation "rest" limited to a 24-hour period? On the contrary, Psalm 95 and Hebrews 4 teach that God's Sabbath rest "remains" and that we can enter into it or be prevented from entering it.

Miles Van Pelt observes:

In Exod 20:11, the command for the people of God to remember the Sabbath day is grounded in God's pattern of work and rest during the creation week. The people of God are to work for six solar days (Exod 20:9) and then rest on the seventh solar day (Exod 20:10). If, therefore, it can be maintained that God's seventh day rest in Gen 2 extends beyond the scope of a single solar day, then the correspondence between the "day" of God's rest and our "day" of observance would be analogical, not identical. In other words, if day seven is an unending day, still in progress, then our weekly recognition of that day is not temporally identical. As such, there is no reason to maintain that the same could not be true for the previous six days, especially if the internal, exegetical evidence from Genesis 1 and 2 supports this reality.

4. The "Day" of Genesis 2:4 Cannot Be 24 Hours Long

After using "the seventh day" in an analogical way (i.e., similar to but not identical with a 24-hour day), we read in the very next verse, Genesis 2:4: "These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day [yom] that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens."

The precise meaning of this is debated. But what seems clear, if we believe the Bible does not contradict itself, is that this (singular) "day"—in which the creation events (plural "generations") occur—cannot refer to a single 24-hour period. In fact, it does not seem to correspond to any one of the creation week days, but is either a reference to the act of creation itself (Gen. 1:1) or an umbrella reference to the lengthier process of forming and fitting the inhabitable earth (Gen. 2:2ff). In either case, this use of yom presents a puzzle for those who insist that "young-earth" exegesis is the only interpretation that takes the opening chapters of Genesis "literally."

Defenders of the 24-hour view acknowledge that yom can mean more than a single calendar day but often insist that "[numbered] yom" (e.g., "first day") always, without exception, refers to a 24-hour day in the Hebrew Bible. This is not true, however. Not only does the rest of the canon tell us that the "seventh day" is not 24 hours, but Hosea 6:2 ("third day") seems to be used in an analogical way that does not refer to a precise 24-hour time period.

5. The Explanation of Genesis 2:5-7 Assumes More Than an Ordinary Calendar Day

In his article "Because It Had Rained" (part 1 and part 2), Mark Futato of Reformed Theological Seminary explains the logic of Genesis 2:5-7 and shows its role in OT covenantal theology.

Futato sees in this passage a twofold problem, a twofold reason, and a twofold solution.

Screen Shot 2015-01-27 at 9.40.28 AM
The twofold problem?

No wild vegetation had appeared in the land.
No cultivated grains had yet sprung up.
The twofold reason for this problem?

The Lord God had not sent rain on the land.
There was no man to cultivate the ground.
The twofold solution to this problem?

God caused rain clouds to rise up from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground.
The Lord God formed the man.
Note the reason why there were no shrubs or small plants in the Garden: because "it had not yet rained." The explanation for this lack of vegetation which is attributed to ordinary providence. But if the sixth day is a 24-hour period, this explanation would make little sense. The very wording of the text presupposes seasons and rain cycles and a lengthier passage of time during this "day [yom]" that God formed man. This doesn't mean that it refers to thousands of years, or hundreds of years. It just means that it's very doubtful it means a 24-hour period.

So What Does God Mean by "Days" in Genesis 1?

Let's go back to the "seventh day." On the seventh day, according to Exodus 31:17, God "rested and was refreshed." Why would an omnipotent and inexhaustible God need to be "refreshed"? It's the same Hebrew word used for getting your breath back after running a long race (Ex. 23:2; 2 Sam. 16:14). The reason it is not improper to say that God was refreshed is the same reason it's not improper to say that God breathes, hovers, is like a potter, gardens, searches, asks questions, comes down, etc.—all images of God used in Genesis. God's revelation to us is analogical (neither entirely identical nor entirely dissimilar) and anthropomorphic (accommodated and communicated from our perspective in terms we can understand).

So when God refers to "days," does he want us to mentally substitute the word "eons" or "ages"? No.

Does he want us to think of precise units of time, marked by 24 exact hours as the earth makes a rotation on its axis? No.

Does he want us to think of the Hebrew workday? Yes, in an analogical and anthropomorphic sense. Just as the "seventh day" makes us think of an ordinary calendar day (even though it isn't technically a 24-hour period), so the other "six days" are meant to be read in the same way.

This is what the great Reformed theologian Herman Bavinck (1854-1921) believed: "The creation days are the workdays of God. By a labor, resumed and renewed six times, he prepared the whole earth."

This is also what the Presbyterian theologian W.G.T. Shedd (1820-1894) advocated:

The seven days of the human week are copies of the seven days of the divine week. The "sun-divided days" are images of the "God-divided days."

This agrees with the biblical representation generally. The human is the copy of the divine, not the divine of the human. Human fatherhood and sonship are finite copies of the Trinitarian fatherhood and sonship. Human justice, benevolence, holiness, mercy, etc., are imitations of corresponding divine qualities.

The reason given for man's rest upon the seventh solar day is that God rested upon the seventh creative day (Ex. 20:11). But this does not prove that the divine rest was only twenty-four hours in duration any more than the fact that human sonship is a copy of the divine proves that the latter is sexual.

Augustine (the most influential theologian in the Western Church) believed something similar, as did Franz Delitzsch (perhaps the great Christian Hebraist). It was the most common view among the late 19th century and early 20th century conservative Dutch theologians.

God is portrayed as a workman going through his workweek, working during the day and resting for the night. Then on his Sabbath, he enjoys a full and refreshing rest. Our days are like God's workdays, but not identical to them.

How long were God's workdays? The Bible doesn't say. But I see no reason to insist that they were only 24 hours long.


Alan

Quote from: Amo on Sat Jun 15, 2024 - 19:23:47..... were completely wrong about.





Says it all right there, you gloss over the facts and manipulate the context to fit your own dogma. 

Amo

Quote from: Rella on Sun Jun 16, 2024 - 17:08:29Amo

" To the contrary, they are completely defined and or limited by the word of God."

You mean by the word of God that has been translated and retranslated to the point that there is not one commentary that can be relied on for the truth but a whole collection of commentaries of explanations on virtually every thing that is in the Holy Bible?

Or perhaps you mean by the words of an important person in ones basic religion... such as Frankie to the RCC, or Brigham Young to the Mormons?

WE are told in 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Does this verse not instruct believers to make every effort to present themselves to God as approved, unashamed workers who handle the word of truth accurately.

Well, how exactly does one do that? You know as well as I that the RCC still teaches Mary was a virgin throughout her life... even though multiple translations have said Joseph did not know her until;..........
And they argue throughout that church that until or till means he never knew her. Those people will argue and nothing you or I  or the corner soap box minister can say that will change their minds.

But that does not make it settled the way it has always been written.

Before
you read the following I will tell you I am not hnging on his words.
There are those on here who will poopoo whatever the man teaches... kind of similar to how people go after Ellen.. but he is not a prophet.. just a learned minister.

I have never said I am in with the evolutionists, because I do not believe in evolution. I also am not a 13 billion years person.
I think too much of the big bang has been made up but I can uncategorical say that everything that came into being before Adam
simply makes no sense that it only took 120 hours... when the description of Day 1 starts " And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

You , if you know who he is, will not like what is written in the link I quote below. It was written by R. C. Sproul an American theologian and pastor (1939–2017)

Robert Charles Sproul was an American Reformed theologian and ordained pastor. He was the founder and chairman of Ligonier Ministries and could be heard daily on the Renewing Your Mind radio broadcast in the United States and internationally.

I do not think that it is necessarily wise to out of hand discount anything that anyone says... if they have an idea.

To me... The Holy Bible was written for "us" as instructional and our handbook as well as history book. I have for longer then I can remember had a strong feeling that We... mankind... was made for a reason... Part of which is for our Heavenly Father and another part which I wont go into here.

Assuming Adam... who is in our downline pedigree... came into being so you, and Hobiwe, and 4WD and RB and all here.. including me could be here at this time.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with the base origins of this planet we live on. The two do not necessarily need to be tied at the hip.

You of all people here who provides all those pictures and videos on what is said about the flood and giants and those extraordinary buildings
that are being found from those hugh stones .. do you honestly believe that they are about 6000 years old or less? They exist. You provide proof.

Also ... I still am working on the verse that follows the 7th day rest one. Gen 2: 4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

Please explain to me how there could be generations plural in a day? What was meant by this. There could not have been generations in a week.
Ive said enough... here is the link, copied in full , thankfully because
I can here.

No bolding or emphasis from me.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/biblical-reasons-to-doubt-the-creation-days-were-24-hour-periods/

We have been through this before. Nevertheless, time providing, I will address your points and those you quoted from others. Some of which are built upon faulty premise.

If God has not preserved His word well enough for people to know the truth. We are all just basically left to our own interpretations of what it all means, and all is good for everybody. The gospel, perhaps points people in the right direction, but it is not necessarily built upon any actual realities itself. Who are "Christian" evolutionists or deep timers to tell everyone else that the creation account is not true as stated, but the gospel is? As though the gospel itself, being built upon the creation account and fall, which may not be true at all, holds any weight itself. Either the following scriptures are true, and the bible has been preserved as truth by God, or it isn't.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Either the above statement is true, or it is not. This is in fact what all of humanity will be judged by. Choosing the truth of holy scripture over all other proclaimed sources or standards, or not. If God has not maintained a standard of truth Himself, then how could He possibly judge people by their acceptance or not, of that which they could not be blamed for not properly understanding in the first place?

The idea of judgment without a standard to be judged by, makes no sense. To the contrary though, the standard has been declared. That standard is not, nor has ever been, nor will ever be, the speculations of the created concerning the Creators words. The Creators words are the standard, by which we will all be judged.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

If the Genesis creation account is not literal, then we are as a matter of fact, left to ourselves to know or understand the creation or that which we exist within, and or why we are really in need of salvation. This being the foundation of holy scripture, I would not waste any time trying to convince anyone else of the truth of scripture. Understanding that it was never actually intended to be any kind of actual standard regarding truth. But rather a suggestion our starting point for those who might wish to pursue a truth of their own making. Nevertheless, I do not find that scripture supports this view in any way shape or form.

Amo

Quote from: Alan on Mon Jun 17, 2024 - 12:03:04Says it all right there, you gloss over the facts and manipulate the context to fit your own dogma.

Four words pulled out of a much larger statement, context does not make. What context? What glossing over? What dogma?

Amo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MqCvEUK5DY

More JWT observations confirming the age of the universe problems.

Amo

#2186
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlYRW_cL4zM

While the deep timer evolutionist narrative of the video is quite confident sounding, even to confidently assigning exact times to creatures existence claimed to be thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, and even millions of years old, the evidence presented doesn't really fit the evolutionary narrative. Almost all the creatures addressed, were much larger than their counterparts living today. Suggesting at the very least, major changes in the world's environment, requiring adaption to new conditions. All scientists know this to be true about a past world filled with much larger plants and animals, living in a world suited to their survival.

4WD

Quote from: Amo on Mon Jun 17, 2024 - 16:01:58https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlYRW_cL4zM

While the deep timer evolutionist narrative of the video is quite confident sounding, even to confidently assigning exact times to creatures existence claimed to be thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, and even millions of years old, the evidence presented doesn't really fit the evolutionary narrative. Almost all the creatures addressed, were much larger than their counterparts living today. Suggesting at the very least, major changes in the world's environment, requiring adaption to new conditions. All scientists know this to be true about a past world filled with much larger plants and animals, living in a world suited to their survival.

It fits quite well once you learn about the early earth environment. The plant and animal forms were all quite well adapted to the different atmospheres, temperatures and land locations.

Amo


4WD

Quote from: Amo on Tue Jun 18, 2024 - 12:45:03https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afxXLtgOWDs

The formation of mountains after the flood.
Yesseree Bob.  Those plate tectonics, that were caused by the flood, were really rippin' and tearin' back then. Shoot, things were movin' so bad and so fast, people probably couldn't even stand up with all the shakin' goin' on.

Rella

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Jun 19, 2024 - 05:54:22Yesseree Bob.  Those plate tectonics, that were caused by the flood, were really rippin' and tearin' back then. Shoot, things were movin' so bad and so fast, people probably couldn't even stand up with all the shakin' goin' on.

Yeppers... and everyone came way with a differing opinion and explanation.

Proving that no one knows.....

IT IS ALL GUESSWORK...AS I HAVE BEEN SAYING.

Texas Conservative

Quote from: Rella on Wed Jun 19, 2024 - 06:35:56Yeppers... and everyone came way with a differing opinion and explanation.

Proving that no one knows.....

IT IS ALL GUESSWORK...AS I HAVE BEEN SAYING.

I know. Why do I know?

Because my church is 100% right.   ::preachit::

4WD

Quote from: Rella on Wed Jun 19, 2024 - 06:35:56Yeppers... and everyone came way with a differing opinion and explanation.

Proving that no one knows.....

IT IS ALL GUESSWORK...AS I HAVE BEEN SAYING.
I think that so much of what was on that video only demonstrated once again that common sense may not be all that common.

Whenever a YEC talks about the Grand Canyon, I know that it is going to be all wrong.  Not only did this video make nonsensical statements about that, it made possibly even more nonsensical statements about plate tectonics.

Rella

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Wed Jun 19, 2024 - 08:02:34I know. Why do I know?

Because my church is 100% right.   ::preachit::

What do you know?

Do you know when my ancestors the Neanderthals walked the earth?

Do you know if they evolved into real people?

Do you know if they came after Adam?

Do you know if they interbred, when did that start?

What, little Poopsie, do you know?




Alan

Quote from: Rella on Wed Jun 19, 2024 - 06:35:56Yeppers... and everyone came way with a differing opinion and explanation.

Proving that no one knows.....

IT IS ALL GUESSWORK...AS I HAVE BEEN SAYING.
It's not guess work if you take the time to understand what is being taught, it is very much backed with solid eveidence. No guesswork involved, and far more credible than a talking snake story. 

Alan

Quote from: Amo on Mon Jun 17, 2024 - 15:34:32Four words pulled out of a much larger statement, context does not make. What context? What glossing over? What dogma?
That is exactly the point I was making, you continuously talk about the "errors" science has made and create your own narrative based on such, but there are no errors. If you were to be honest you would see that a former theory may have progressed to a newer theory, but that is the essence of science, it can only be replaced with better science. Science never wipes the slate clean and starts over with their understanding of astronomy, geology, and biology.  

Texas Conservative

Quote from: Alan on Wed Jun 19, 2024 - 14:38:09It's not guess work if you take the time to understand what is being taught, it is very much backed with solid eveidence. No guesswork involved, and far more credible than a talking snake story.

What are you trying to communicate with what I've bolded?  That it's an allegory? That would be my assumption.  However, it comes across as disrespectful.

Texas Conservative

Quote from: Alan on Wed Jun 19, 2024 - 14:48:04That is exactly the point I was making, you continuously talk about the "errors" science has made and create your own narrative based on such, but there are no errors. If you were to be honest you would see that a former theory may have progressed to a newer theory, but that is the essence of science, it can only be replaced with better science. Science never wipes the slate clean and starts over with their understanding of astronomy, geology, and biology. 

Darwin's theories very much wiped the slate clean.  The prevailing scientific theory of the origin of life before Darwin was quite different.  There have been those who had similar thoughts to Darwin, but their views were not considered as fact.

Alan

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Wed Jun 19, 2024 - 16:01:11Darwin's theories very much wiped the slate clean.  The prevailing scientific theory of the origin of life before Darwin was quite different.  There have been those who had similar thoughts to Darwin, but their views were not considered as fact.
Can't disagree with that, but there really didn't exist any theories prior to the origin of species, it was primarily hypothesis that lacked any actual research. 

Alan

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Wed Jun 19, 2024 - 15:55:48What are you trying to communicate with what I've bolded?  That it's an allegory? That would be my assumption.  However, it comes across as disrespectful.
Why do you think it's disrespectful? It was directed toward the "guesswork" remark. If a guy wakes up one morning with a hunch and subsequently writes a journal on the subject, that would be guesswork. Instead, it is literally thousands of people that have dedicated decades of time in researching a subject with supporting evidence and data that comes into question. 

People can freely choose to believe biblical script as literal or allegorical, but it seems ironic to charge science with "guesswork" while believing that a snake talked or that a flood covered the entire earths surface. 

4WD

Or that the universe is only 6,000 to 10,000 years old.

Alan

Quote from: 4WD on Thu Jun 20, 2024 - 14:23:41Or that the universe is only 6,000 to 10,000 years old.
Yep, another ludicrous claim. 

armchairscholar

Quote from: Alan on Thu Jun 20, 2024 - 11:04:25Why do you think it's disrespectful? It was directed toward the "guesswork" remark. If a guy wakes up one morning with a hunch and subsequently writes a journal on the subject, that would be guesswork. Instead, it is literally thousands of people that have dedicated decades of time in researching a subject with supporting evidence and data that comes into question.

People can freely choose to believe biblical script as literal or allegorical, but it seems ironic to charge science with "guesswork" while believing that a snake talked or that a flood covered the entire earths surface.

 ::amen!:: Jimmy Carr recently said, and I'm paraphrasing from memory: "When it comes to Christianity, there are two types of fools: those who think it is completely useless and those who take it completely literally". Biblical literalism is a form of idolatry. What matters is the direct and relational experience with God, which people have tried to describe within the books of the bible. But the Bible is just the description by people within the human limitations of their language and culture. It is a pointer, not the goal. Bishop Mike Mitchell does a great job of explaining this.

4WD

Quote from: armchairscholar on Fri Jun 21, 2024 - 06:10:08::amen!:: Jimmy Carr recently said, and I'm paraphrasing from memory: "When it comes to Christianity, there are two types of fools: those who think it is completely useless and those who take it completely literally". Biblical literalism is a form of idolatry. What matters is the direct and relational experience with God, which people have tried to describe within the books of the bible. But the Bible is just the description by people within the human limitations of their language and culture. It is a pointer, not the goal. Bishop Mike Mitchell does a great job of explaining this.
I think I understand the point that you are making relative to how the Bible is variously interpreted.  And I do agree with you on that point.

However, as a bit of an aside, I do not believe that the Bible is just the description by people within the human limitations of their language and culture.

It may well be, and likely is, a description within the human limitations of their language and culture.  However, I sincerely believe it is that description from God through the inspiration of the authors by the Holy Spirit.

I do believe that it is a pointer, not the goal.  However, it is the pointer by God and we must treat it as such.  Why?  Because we can see the results of sheer evil in the world when it is not treated as the pointer by God.

As much as I believe that we are saved not by law but grace through faith in God, the entire Bible, as that pointer spoken of here, is pointing to obedience.  The OT is specifically graphic about what happens when God's laws are not obeyed.

Amo

Psa 94:8 Understand, ye brutish among the people: and ye fools, when will ye be wise? 9 He that planted the ear, shall he not hear? he that formed the eye, shall he not see? 10 He that chastiseth the heathen, shall not he correct? he that teacheth man knowledge, shall not he know? 11 The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity. 12 Blessed is the man whom thou chastenest, O LORD, and teachest him out of thy law;

Psa 119:1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.......
6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.......
18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law......
21 Thou hast rebuked the proud that are cursed, which do err from thy commandments.......
53 Horror hath taken hold upon me because of the wicked that forsake thy law.......
66 Teach me good judgment and knowledge: for I have believed thy commandments........
113 I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love......
118 Thou hast trodden down all them that err from thy statutes: for their deceit is falsehood......
126 It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law...
128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.......
142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.......
151 Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth.......
160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever......
172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.......
176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Psa 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth. 5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD. 6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


Do not be fooled by the vain imaginings of the proud of the earth. Who would restrict the God of heaven and earth, to the extremely low limits of their own understanding. He is not bound in any way, shape, or form, by their prideful musings. Who think God is bound by the very laws of nature and or existence He Himself has bound us within. Who think they can define God by their own observations and numerous extrapolations regarding the same, as though God were beholden the them, rather than they to Him. Who tell you to ignore the testimony of the prophets and apostles which God Himself chose to reveal the truth to us, and rather bow before their own self exalted and supposed extensive and or exhaustive knowledge of what is, and why or how it is.

Who say God's word cannot be properly understood or interpreted, but their's can and will be by all those who believe and submit to it. Though they continuously be corrected and even correct themselves as increased knowledge often reveals their many wrong conclusions along the way. As though God has not been capable of revealing the truth, and preserving His word unto the same. While they are capable of such by continuously morphing and changing their gospel as necessary along their path of ever learning, while never being able to come to a knowledge of truth. Having rejected the plain and simple truths of holy scripture in favor of their own vain imaginings. God has not given these prophets their visions, nor do they even claim such, but fully admit of their own understanding as the guide of their teachings. To the contrary, they insist not only that God has nothing to do with their observations, but must have nothing to do with them. About this much, they are correct. God has nothing to do with the shifting sands of their vain imaginations.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Do not worship the creature more than the Creator, or turn the truth of God into a lie, by believing the testimony of these mere men over and above the plain testimony of the word of God. Their theories are just like them, here today, gone or changed tomorrow. 

1 Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

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