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Keeping the Sabbath tells people Who you Worship.

Started by Hobie, Sat Feb 24, 2024 - 05:35:09

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Hobie

The weekly Sabbath tells people who you worship and why because the 4th commandment says:

Exodus 20:8-11
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

This is the only one of the ten that tells you who you are worshipping and why. Take out the 4th commandment as many seem to want, and the Ten Commandments might as well have been written by Warren Buffet or whoever is being followed these days in the investing circles.

Cathlodox

According to Sabbath Hearld SDA Church paper.

Sabbath worship is directly tied to belief that Father God has a body of flesh that both looks like a perfect man and has every member, organ and part that a perfect man has.

According to the same Sabbath Hearld worshipping on Sunday informs people that you worship the Trinity and affirm that God the Father is not a flesh & bone hominid.


Amo

Quote from: Cathlodox on Sat Feb 24, 2024 - 10:23:35According to Sabbath Hearld SDA Church paper.

Sabbath worship is directly tied to belief that Father God has a body of flesh that both looks like a perfect man and has every member, organ and part that a perfect man has.

According to the same Sabbath Hearld worshipping on Sunday informs people that you worship the Trinity and affirm that God the Father is not a flesh & bone hominid.

Now we know where lefty progressives really get their tactics from. Just keep telling the same lie over and over again, until hopefully people start to believe it. Baby-on, son of Babylon.

Cathlodox

Quote from: Amo on Sat Feb 24, 2024 - 12:00:11Now we know where lefty progressives really get their tactics from. Just keep telling the same lie over and over again, until hopefully people start to believe it. Baby-on, son of Babylon.

Here Amo,

SABBATH GOD
QuoteAfter we know and remember God, by keeping his holy Sabbath, then the Bible will teach of his personality and dwelling place.

Sunday God
QuoteWe will make a few extracts, that the reader may see the broad contrast between the God of the Bible brought to light through Sabbath-keeping, and the god in the dark through Sunday-keeping. Catholic Catechism Abridged by the Rt. Rev. John Pubois, Bishop of New York. Page 5. Ques. Where is God ? Ans. God is everywhere. Q. Does God see and know all things 3 A. Yes, he does know and see all things. Q. Has God any body 1 A. No; God has no body, he is a pure Spirit. Q. Are there more Gods than pne ? A. No; there is but one God. Q. Are there more persons than one in God ? A. Yes ; in God there are three persons. Q. Which are they 1 A. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. Q. Are there not three Gods ? A. No; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, are all but one
and the same God.

The "Personality of God" Doctrine (brought to light through Sabbath keeping) is a "PILLAR" or "LANDMARK" Doctrine for the SDA Church according to Ellen White.

QuoteEllen White, MR760 9.5
"Those who seek to remove the old landmarks are not holding fast; they are not remembering how they have received and heard. Those who try to bring in theories that would remove the pillars of our faith concerning the sanctuary or concerning the personality of God or of Christ, are working as blind men. They are seeking to bring in uncertainties and to set the people of God adrift without an anchor."

This anti-Trinitarian 'Personality of God" Doctrine was taught to be the most important teaching to the "people of God" - according to Ellen White.

QuoteSabbath Hearld, February 13, 1919 said:
"
But what is the common point in the teaching of the cults 1 — They all deny the personality of God.

On March 8, 1906 Ellen White wrote an article for the Sabbath Herald and below is the salient portion of her article.

QuoteHe who denies the personality of God and of his Son Jesus 'Christ, is denying God and 'Christ. " If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." If you continue to believe and obey the truths you first embraced regarding the personality of the Father and the Son, you will be joined together with him in love. There will be seen that union for which Christ prayed just before his trial and crucifixion:— " That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

The "Trinity" Doctrine was said to ruin the "Personality of God". Below the Sabbath Herald speaks of this.

QuoteSabbath Herald
"The doctrine of the Trinity WHICH WAS ESTABLISHED IN THE CHURCH BY THE COUNCIL OF NICEA, A. D. 325. This doctrine destroys the personality of God, and his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. The infamous, measures by which it was forced upon the church which appear upon the pages of ecclesiastical history might well cause every believer in that doctrine to blush." (vol. 6, no. 24, page 185)

QuoteSabbath Herald, October 8, 1903
OF late the question has repeatedly come to me, Does it make any real difference whether we believe in the personality of God, as long as we believe in God? My answer invariably is, It depends altogether upon the standpoint from which we view it. If from the Spiritualist's, -the Christian Scientist's, the Universalist's, or if from the standpoint of any other " ist" or " ism," it makes but little or no difference. But from the standpoint of Seventh-day Adventists it makes all the difference in the world. Second At the creation God said to Christ, " Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. ... So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Gen. 1: 26, 27. Man bore the image of God both morally and physically

Later on in the same Sabbath Herald article it says;

Quote"The doctrine of the Personality of God IS the fundamental doctrine of the Scriptures..."
...""NEITHER was this image of God a mere concept; FOR the Bible declares that the Lord has PARTS, THE SAME AS the human body"."OUR EXISTENCE as a people is FOUNDED on a belief in the truths stated above
".

The SDA faith was "FOUNDED" on a doctrine that combated the Trinity Doctrine.

Amo, I can appreciate why you and Hobie would want to make light of the things I'm educating viewers on about SDA theology - I understand this strikes a nerve but would encourage you to OWN IT in a forthright way instead of pretending it doesn't exist.

QuoteSabbath Herald, August 31 1905 "I entreat every one to be clear and firm regarding the certain truths that we have heard and received and advocated. The statements of God's Word are plain. Plant your feet firmly on the platform of eternal truth. Reject every phase of error, even though it be covered with a semblance of reality, which denies the personality of God and of Christ."

Just accept it.


Cathlodox

#4
Amo, as you can see - once one accepts the gateway Doctrine of the Sabbath the individual will be open to the concept of Father God having a body with "parts", the same as a perfect man.

Another way to say it would be that once a person accepts the Sabbath they will then be instructed on Mormonism's God Doctrine.

Don't fret about this - just own it.

The oddity in this is that Mormons don't accept the Sabbath yet believe in the Personality of God Doctrine. This is a question worthy of research.

Amo

Yea, we know, and if a man says he is a woman he is, and if a woman says she is a man she is. And so on, and so on, Babylon.

Cathlodox

Quote from: Amo on Sat Feb 24, 2024 - 13:35:05Yea, we know, and if a man says he is a woman he is, and if a woman says she is a man she is. And so on, and so on, Babylon.

what you said isn't my position Amo.

I'm simply illustrating how the SDA Church taught that Sabbath keeping prepared the adherent for accepting that Father God had a body with flesh, bone and every member and part that you'd understand a perfect man to have.

there is simply far to many quotes (from the SDA's inception to current) to deny it. 

Hobie

Quote from: Amo on Sat Feb 24, 2024 - 12:00:11Now we know where lefty progressives really get their tactics from. Just keep telling the same lie over and over again, until hopefully people start to believe it. Baby-on, son of Babylon.
And it spreads faster than if you give the truth...

Cathlodox

Quote from: Hobie on Fri Mar 15, 2024 - 18:26:53And it spreads faster than if you give the truth...


The Truth Hobie, is that keeping the Sabbath is another way of showing anti-Trinitarianism.

As you can see from the SDA Publication I quoted from earlier in this thread, Sabbath keeping was akin to Circumcision for the Israelites in that it mentally prepared the Adventist adherent for deeper knowledge about the SDA faith - primarily, about Flesh Father and His Begotten god creature Christ.

I'll illustrate this below.

If you ask a Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Calvinist, any Reformed Tradition, Baptist or Methodist WHY Christ had power they would tell you that it's because Christ is Almighty God. True, Christ was also "man" however its important to understand at the Incarnation God didn't cease being God. God became man without ceasing to be God.

Unfortunately, asking that same question to a Seventh-day Adventist or Ellen White during the time of her earthly ministry you will find out the SDA reason why Christ had the power of God.


Ellen White MS 99,1903 page 3,4
He had infinite power ONLY because He was perfectly obedient to His Father's will

The SDA's teach that God ISN'T "ONE BEING" - SDA's teach that there are THREE BEINGS and that ONLY one of those Beings is Ultimate God (Father God). They readily call Jesus God but with the caveated understanding he's NOT, at least not in the same way as Father God is God.

Below are some examples representative of how Flesh Father is Ultimate God

Sabbath Herald, September 7, 1869
'And as to the Son of God, he could be excluded also, for he had God for His Father, and did, at some point in the eternity of the past, have beginning of days. So that if we use Paul's language in an absolute sense, it would be impossible to find but one being in the universe, and that is God the Father, who is without father, or mother, or descent, or beginning of days, or end of life. Yet probably no one for a moment contends that Melchizedek was God the Father.''

Ellen White, James White & DM Canright, Sabbath Herald August 29,1878
And then the Bible never uses the phrases, " trinity," " triune God," " three in one," " the holy three," " God the Holy Ghost," etc. But it does emphatically say there is only one God, the Father. And every argument of the Trinitarian to prove three Gods in one person, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, all of them of one substance, and every way equal to each other, and all three forming but one, contradicts itself, contradicts reason, and contradicts the Bible."



Adventist Signs of the Times, March 21, 1878
Bible question to the editor


Q. But does it not say that the Word was God?

A. Yes, and it says that he was with God. Being the Son of God of course he is properly called God. This is his name, but he was NOT THE VERY and ETERNAL God Himself for it says that he was with God


Sabbath Herald, April 17, 1883
"You are mistaken in supposing that S. D. Adventists teach that Christ was ever created. They believe, on the contrary, that he was "begotten" of the Father, and that he can properly be called God and worshiped as such. They believe, also, that the worlds, and everything which is, was created by Christ in conjunction with the Father. They believe, however, that somewhere in the eternal ages of the past there was a point at which Christ came into existence." They think that it is necessary that God should have antedated Christ in his being, in order that Christ could have been begotten of him, and sustain to him the relation of son. They hold to the distinct personality of the Father and Son, rejecting as absurd that feature of Trinitarianism which insists that God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit are three persons, and yet but one person." "S. D. Adventists hold that God and Christ are one in the sense that Christ prayed that his disciples might be one; i. e., one in spirit, purpose, and labor. See "Fundamental Principles of S. D. Adventists," published at this Office.

And of course, Ellen White's own work product:

Signs of the Times, March 21, 1878
"All are familiar with the first chapter of John. This has been called the stronghold of trinitarians and the dread of unitarians ; but the simple truth is very plain. It does not show that the Son of God did exist with the Father before the world was, and that he made the world. Thus it reads :— " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him ; and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life ; and the life, was the light of men." "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not." John 1 : 1-4, 10. But does it not say that the Word was God ? Yes ; and it says that he was with God. Being the Son of God, of course he is properly called God. That is his name;; but he was not the very and eternal God himself, for it says that he was with God. If he was with God this implies that he was distinct from God the Father."

Review and Herald November 14, 1854
Again, where it is declared, that there are none good except the Father, it cannot be understood that none others are good in a relative sense; for Christ and angels, are good, yea perfect, in their respective sphere; BUT that the Father alone is supremely, or absolutely, good; AND that he alone is immortal in an absolute sense; that he alone is self-existent; and, that, consequently, every other being, however high or low, is absolutely dependent upon him for life; for being. This idea is most emphatically expressed by our Saviour himself; " For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself." John v, 26. This would be singular language for one to use who had life in his essential nature, just as much as the Father. To meet such a view, it should read thus: For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath the Son life in himself If as Trinitarians argue, the Divine nature of the Son hath life in himself (i. e., is self existent) jusl the same, and in as absolute a sense, as the Father, why should he represent himself as actually dependent upon the Father for life ? What propriety in representing the Father as conferring upon him a gift which he had possessed from all eternity ? If it be said that his human nature derived its life from the Father, I would answer, It does not thus read; 01 even if it did, 1 would still urge the impropriety of the human nature of the Son of God representing itself as being absolutely dependent upon the Father for the gift of life

Ellen White
The King of the universe summoned the heavenly hosts before Him, that in their presence He might set forth the true position of His Son and show the relation He sustained to all created beings. The Son of God shared the Father's throne, and the glory of the eternal, self-existent One encircled both.
http://text.egwwritings.org/publicat...%22&resultId=7

Sabbath keeping was said to prepare the one practicing it for accepting deeper Doctrines, namely the Doctrine of the Personality of God - the Doctrine that affirms that the Father was a flesh God, a separate "Being" from the Son who was another "Being" who had a "beginning of days". The reason for this is that the early SDA's rejected "spirit" therefore, because the Trinity Doctrine stated that God was a single Spirit with an indwelling of 3 Persons (identies) WITHOUT body, members, organs and parts the SDA's believed that the Trinity Doctrine destroyed the Personality (flesh, bone and organ body) of God.

The SDA's during Ellen White's time believed a rejection of flesh Father WAS PANTHEISM.

Signs of the Time, July 4, 1938
But pantheism, wherever it is held, is a denial of the personality of God;


















Amo

Quote from: Cathlodox on Fri Mar 15, 2024 - 22:28:00The Truth Hobie, is that keeping the Sabbath is another way of showing anti-Trinitarianism.

As you can see from the SDA Publication I quoted from earlier in this thread, Sabbath keeping was akin to Circumcision for the Israelites in that it mentally prepared the Adventist adherent for deeper knowledge about the SDA faith - primarily, about Flesh Father and His Begotten god creature Christ.

I'll illustrate this below.

If you ask a Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Calvinist, any Reformed Tradition, Baptist or Methodist WHY Christ had power they would tell you that it's because Christ is Almighty God. True, Christ was also "man" however its important to understand at the Incarnation God didn't cease being God. God became man without ceasing to be God.

Unfortunately, asking that same question to a Seventh-day Adventist or Ellen White during the time of her earthly ministry you will find out the SDA reason why Christ had the power of God.


Ellen White MS 99,1903 page 3,4
He had infinite power ONLY because He was perfectly obedient to His Father's will

The SDA's teach that God ISN'T "ONE BEING" - SDA's teach that there are THREE BEINGS and that ONLY one of those Beings is Ultimate God (Father God). They readily call Jesus God but with the caveated understanding he's NOT, at least not in the same way as Father God is God.

Below are some examples representative of how Flesh Father is Ultimate God

Sabbath Herald, September 7, 1869
'And as to the Son of God, he could be excluded also, for he had God for His Father, and did, at some point in the eternity of the past, have beginning of days. So that if we use Paul's language in an absolute sense, it would be impossible to find but one being in the universe, and that is God the Father, who is without father, or mother, or descent, or beginning of days, or end of life. Yet probably no one for a moment contends that Melchizedek was God the Father.''

Ellen White, James White & DM Canright, Sabbath Herald August 29,1878
And then the Bible never uses the phrases, " trinity," " triune God," " three in one," " the holy three," " God the Holy Ghost," etc. But it does emphatically say there is only one God, the Father. And every argument of the Trinitarian to prove three Gods in one person, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, all of them of one substance, and every way equal to each other, and all three forming but one, contradicts itself, contradicts reason, and contradicts the Bible."



Adventist Signs of the Times, March 21, 1878
Bible question to the editor


Q. But does it not say that the Word was God?

A. Yes, and it says that he was with God. Being the Son of God of course he is properly called God. This is his name, but he was NOT THE VERY and ETERNAL God Himself for it says that he was with God


Sabbath Herald, April 17, 1883
"You are mistaken in supposing that S. D. Adventists teach that Christ was ever created. They believe, on the contrary, that he was "begotten" of the Father, and that he can properly be called God and worshiped as such. They believe, also, that the worlds, and everything which is, was created by Christ in conjunction with the Father. They believe, however, that somewhere in the eternal ages of the past there was a point at which Christ came into existence." They think that it is necessary that God should have antedated Christ in his being, in order that Christ could have been begotten of him, and sustain to him the relation of son. They hold to the distinct personality of the Father and Son, rejecting as absurd that feature of Trinitarianism which insists that God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit are three persons, and yet but one person." "S. D. Adventists hold that God and Christ are one in the sense that Christ prayed that his disciples might be one; i. e., one in spirit, purpose, and labor. See "Fundamental Principles of S. D. Adventists," published at this Office.

And of course, Ellen White's own work product:

Signs of the Times, March 21, 1878
"All are familiar with the first chapter of John. This has been called the stronghold of trinitarians and the dread of unitarians ; but the simple truth is very plain. It does not show that the Son of God did exist with the Father before the world was, and that he made the world. Thus it reads :— " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him ; and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life ; and the life, was the light of men." "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not." John 1 : 1-4, 10. But does it not say that the Word was God ? Yes ; and it says that he was with God. Being the Son of God, of course he is properly called God. That is his name;; but he was not the very and eternal God himself, for it says that he was with God. If he was with God this implies that he was distinct from God the Father."

Review and Herald November 14, 1854
Again, where it is declared, that there are none good except the Father, it cannot be understood that none others are good in a relative sense; for Christ and angels, are good, yea perfect, in their respective sphere; BUT that the Father alone is supremely, or absolutely, good; AND that he alone is immortal in an absolute sense; that he alone is self-existent; and, that, consequently, every other being, however high or low, is absolutely dependent upon him for life; for being. This idea is most emphatically expressed by our Saviour himself; " For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself." John v, 26. This would be singular language for one to use who had life in his essential nature, just as much as the Father. To meet such a view, it should read thus: For as the Father hath life in himself, so hath the Son life in himself If as Trinitarians argue, the Divine nature of the Son hath life in himself (i. e., is self existent) jusl the same, and in as absolute a sense, as the Father, why should he represent himself as actually dependent upon the Father for life ? What propriety in representing the Father as conferring upon him a gift which he had possessed from all eternity ? If it be said that his human nature derived its life from the Father, I would answer, It does not thus read; 01 even if it did, 1 would still urge the impropriety of the human nature of the Son of God representing itself as being absolutely dependent upon the Father for the gift of life

Ellen White
The King of the universe summoned the heavenly hosts before Him, that in their presence He might set forth the true position of His Son and show the relation He sustained to all created beings. The Son of God shared the Father's throne, and the glory of the eternal, self-existent One encircled both.
http://text.egwwritings.org/publicat...%22&resultId=7

Sabbath keeping was said to prepare the one practicing it for accepting deeper Doctrines, namely the Doctrine of the Personality of God - the Doctrine that affirms that the Father was a flesh God, a separate "Being" from the Son who was another "Being" who had a "beginning of days". The reason for this is that the early SDA's rejected "spirit" therefore, because the Trinity Doctrine stated that God was a single Spirit with an indwelling of 3 Persons (identies) WITHOUT body, members, organs and parts the SDA's believed that the Trinity Doctrine destroyed the Personality (flesh, bone and organ body) of God.

The SDA's during Ellen White's time believed a rejection of flesh Father WAS PANTHEISM.

Signs of the Time, July 4, 1938
But pantheism, wherever it is held, is a denial of the personality of God;

If you hadn't already been caught lying and mutilating the words of others, so many times, maybe someone would be interested in viewing and or challenging your accusations. Nevertheless, I have already found you to do nothing else. Therefore, I will waste no more time addressing your lies and manipulative use of others words. Not to mention of course, that you are basically still just repeating those same lies. 

Cathlodox

Quote from: Amo on Sat Mar 16, 2024 - 09:07:43If you hadn't already been caught lying and mutilating the words of others, so many times, maybe someone would be interested in viewing and or challenging your accusations. Nevertheless, I have already found you to do nothing else. Therefore, I will waste no more time addressing your lies and manipulative use of others words. Not to mention of course, that you are basically still just repeating those same lies.

It's only you saying that.

If you believe that greasing up you head and neck striking them deep into the sand is your best option when confronted by the words of Ellen White and her contemporaries that is certainly your right - just understand everyone can see it for what it is, a copout.

Amo

Quote from: Cathlodox on Sat Mar 16, 2024 - 13:06:03It's only you saying that.

If you believe that greasing up you head and neck striking them deep into the sand is your best option when confronted by the words of Ellen White and her contemporaries that is certainly your right - just understand everyone can see it for what it is, a copout.

What I believe, is that you are full of crap, having caught you in lies and true misinformation peddling already. None of which you will ever admit of, but to the contrary ignore the proof of your falsehoods, and then just keep babbling lies.

Nevertheless again -

If you must Babyl-on, then start another thread asking these questions. Don't hijack other topics, in the hope I suppose, of changing the subject regarding things perhaps you would rather not see discussed. Regardless of your reasoning, as I cannot know for sure, create your own topic or thread to discuss these issues. Don't hijack existing ones.

Texas Conservative

Quote from: Hobie on Sat Feb 24, 2024 - 05:35:09The weekly Sabbath tells people who you worship and why because the 4th commandment says:

Exodus 20:8-11
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

This is the only one of the ten that tells you who you are worshipping and why. Take out the 4th commandment as many seem to want, and the Ten Commandments might as well have been written by Warren Buffet or whoever is being followed these days in the investing circles.

Christians are no longer under the OT Law?  Why do you keep trying to be under the OT Law?

4WD

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Sat Mar 16, 2024 - 18:59:05Christians are no longer under the OT Law?  Why do you keep trying to be under the OT Law?
I also believe that the Christian is no longer under the Old Law, but I don't believe that means that we no longer need to obey God's laws.

I am curious what you believe about this; what does it mean that Christians are no longer under the OT Law.  Does that mean that Christians no longer need to obey any of the Law? For example, the first of the Ten Commandments is, "You shall have no other gods before me". Do we no longer need to obey that law?  What about the rest of the Old Law?




4WD

Quote from: Hobie on Sat Feb 24, 2024 - 05:35:09The weekly Sabbath tells people who you worship and why because the 4th commandment says:

Exodus 20:8-11
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

This is the only one of the ten that tells you who you are worshipping and why. Take out the 4th commandment as many seem to want, and the Ten Commandments might as well have been written by Warren Buffet or whoever is being followed these days in the investing circles.
Hobie, what does Romans 14:5 mean to you?

Rom 14:5  One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

Texas Conservative

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Mar 17, 2024 - 05:04:59I also believe that the Christian is no longer under the Old Law, but I don't believe that means that we no longer need to obey God's laws.

I am curious what you believe about this; what does it mean that Christians are no longer under the OT Law.  Does that mean that Christians no longer need to obey any of the Law? For example, the first of the Ten Commandments is, "You shall have no other gods before me". Do we no longer need to obey that law?  What about the rest of the Old Law?





Do you keep the Sabbath? 

If not, you are guilty of breaking the rest of the law. 

Not being under the law, means not attempting to be justified by the law.  Many people believe salvation to be Jesus plus X.  And that X is whatever their group happens to believe is special aside from the gospel. 

In Galatians 5, it was circumcision. Some here want to make it keeping the sabbath.

Jaime

#16
I have always heard we are free from the penalty of the law, in other words the law of sin and death we are not subject to and not under that law. God's law is still God's law, though we are freed from the penalty of the Law when we are in Christ. We are commanded to not murder, to not covet, to honor our mother and father etc. that law is on our hearts and not just on tablets of stone.

Romans 8:1–2: "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death."

Wycliffes_Shillelagh

Quote from: Hobie on Sat Feb 24, 2024 - 05:35:09Keeping the Sabbath tells people Who you Worship.
So... you're telling me... Saturday worship is virtue-signaling?

Hobie

Quote from: Amo on Sat Feb 24, 2024 - 13:35:05Yea, we know, and if a man says he is a woman he is, and if a woman says she is a man she is. And so on, and so on, Babylon.
Lots of it, Satan uses it as a tool..

Jaime

#19
Quote from: 4WD on Sun Mar 17, 2024 - 05:04:59I also believe that the Christian is no longer under the Old Law, but I don't believe that means that we no longer need to obey God's laws.

I am curious what you believe about this; what does it mean that Christians are no longer under the OT Law.  Does that mean that Christians no longer need to obey any of the Law? For example, the first of the Ten Commandments is, "You shall have no other gods before me". Do we no longer need to obey that law?  What about the rest of the Old Law?


I agree 4WD. God's Law was not abolished or rescinded. Aspects of the Ceremonial Law WERE nailed to the cross, God's Law, the 10 commandments are eternal in my view. I would argue for all 10 of the 10 commandments, but most would agree on 9. We as Christians are free from the penalty of the law. In other words we are freed from the law of sin and death. We are compelled by our indwelling spirit to obey the law written upon our hearts, not just tablets of stone with words to be mechanically complied with. It will be because our heart and our spirit keep us on the strait and narrow. We obey because we love God, if we love Him we will obey Him and His Spirit is our Helper. We are imprinted by God when we become His. If we love Him we will keep His commandments that are written  on our heart.




Jaime

#20
QuoteMathew 5:19 Therefore, whoever nullifies one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

This verse has always puzzled me (especially right after 5:17) Why would Jesus tell people that they would be considered IN the Kingdom, but considered least in the kingdom for annulling a commandment and teaching others to do so.

I looked at the Greek word translated IN and it can ALSO be translated BY. Being considered least BY the kingdom makes more sense to me. Another huge difference made by the translation of a little word.

Every precedent I see in the Bible involving disobeying God's commandments or teaching others to do would never be viewed favorably enough by God to be IN his kingdom ultimately


Rella

Quote from: Jaime on Fri May 17, 2024 - 21:56:41I agree 4WD. God's Law was not abolished or rescinded. Aspects of the Ceremonial Law WERE nailed to the cross, God's Law, the 10 commandments are eternal in my view. I would argue for all 10 of the 10 commandments, but most would agree on 9. We as Christians are free from the penalty of the law. In other words we are freed from the law of sin and death. We are compelled by our indwelling spirit to obey the law written upon our hearts, not just tablets of stone with words to be mechanically complied with. It will be because our heart and our spirit keep us on the strait and narrow. We obey because we love God, if we love Him we will obey Him and His Spirit is our Helper. We are imprinted by God when we become His. If we love Him we will keep His commandments that are written  on our heart.




Quote from: Jaime on Sat May 18, 2024 - 05:53:53This verse has always puzzled me (especially right after 5:17) Why would Jesus tell people that they would be considered IN the Kingdom, but considered least in the kingdom for annulling a commandment and teaching others to do so.

I looked at the Greek word translated IN and it can ALSO be translated BY. Being considered least BY the kingdom makes more sense to me. Another huge difference made by the translation of a little word.

Every precedent I see in the Bible involving disobeying God's commandments or teaching others to do would never be viewed favorably enough by God to be IN his kingdom ultimately



If you are correct on each of your comments then in Col 2:16

NASB 1995
Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day

Paul is once again wrong.

The 4th commandment reads... Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.

I agree that there are many references to the Sabbath day in the New Testament and we know that Jews under the law in the time of Jesus would be observing the Sabbath. One only has to study the crucifixion time to know that.


But I read no direct or indirect command for believers in Christ to observe the Sabbath as a day of rest or to keep IT holy.

It is my understanding.... backed up by Col 2:16 that....in fact....releases the believer from the Sabbath command.

 Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath and  has become for us our Sabbath rest, according to Hebrews 4:1–11.

The Believer's Rest
4 Therefore, we must fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also did; but the word [a]they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united with those who listened with faith. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,

"As I swore in My anger,
They certainly shall not enter My rest,"

although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works"; 5 and again in this passage, "They certainly shall not enter My rest." 6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who previously had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 He again sets a certain day, "Today," saying [c]through David after so long a time just as has been said before,

"Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts."

8 For if [d]Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9 Consequently, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11 Therefore let's make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same example of disobedience.

Since this was also credited to Paul... was he wrong on this also?

Jaime

#22
Personally I don't think Christianity has understood Paul as well as it might claim. Even Peter said Paul was hard to understand.

To me Colossians 2:16 admonishes Christians to not judge according to the Sabbath. In other words do not judge against those that eat a certain way or observe the Sabbath or A Sabbath. I don't think that abolishes the Sabbath command, God was always their rest in the OT, Jesus is God. Can he not be our rest as well on God's appointed date night for us? If the Sabbath was only a provision for keeping people from being over worked as Jarrod says, maybe so,  it was MUCH more than that in my opinion.

Cathlodox

The Sabbath, in the New Covenant - is to be perpetual rest in Christ - thus its a "state" and not a literal 'day'. Adam and eve were created and BANG, they sinned before entering into God's rest. The Jewish day Rosh Hashana celebrates / recalls this event (that Adam and Eve sinned on the very day that they were created).

The SDA gnostic teaching is that Adam and Eve were created, observed the first sabbath then busted sod and did weeding in the garden of Eden for 6 days and then (in conjunction with the aliens on other planets) observed the Galactic 7th day Sabbath. 

This is a gross misunderstanding of the teaching of what God's rest means.

Additionally, keeping the 7 day Sabbath (in these days) instructs others that you worship the Flesh Father and his primary creature - Michael christ.

Cathlodox

Keeping the Sabbath informs who you DON'T worship.

Amo

Neh 9:11 And thou didst divide the sea before them, so that they went through the midst of the sea on the dry land; and their persecutors thou threwest into the deeps, as a stone into the mighty waters. 12 Moreover thou leddest them in the day by a cloudy pillar; and in the night by a pillar of fire, to give them light in the way wherein they should go. 13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments: 14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

Even in the old covenant, there was a difference made between the commandments of God, and those written by the hand of Moses. This issue is not that complicated, but by those who wish it to be so. That they may have excuse to ignore a commandment of God. The law of God spoken by His own mouth to Israel, and written by His own hand, is unchangeable. As it is upheld as the standard up to the very last book and chapter of holy scripture.

The laws of God given by the hand of Moses, are, and were, subject to change. As the writings of the New Testament, and Paul especially, openly declare. Many were not only subject to change, but were specifically meant to be done away with after our Lord completed the sacrifice which they only pointed to. The sabbaths mentioned in Col 2 have nothing to do with the fourth commandment of God. As the commandments of God have nothing to do with meat, drinks, holidays in general, or new moons either. All of which are mentioned along side of the sabbaths the verses speak of as well. Which very things are addressed in the other laws for Israel written by the hand of Moses, including the ceremonial or agricultural sabbaths.

Paul himself makes this distinction very clear, for all who care to examine and accept truth. The gospel of Jesus Christ is about people being converted and changed, not the law of God.

1 Cor 7:17 Only, let each one [seek to conduct himself and regulate his affairs so as to] lead the life which the Lord has allotted and imparted to him and to which God has invited and summoned him. This is my order in all the churches. 18 Was anyone at the time of his summons [from God] already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the evidence of circumcision. Was anyone at the time [God] called him uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. 19 For circumcision is nothing and counts for nothing, neither does uncircumcision, but [what counts is] keeping the commandments of God.


Amo

Quote from: Cathlodox on Mon May 20, 2024 - 10:15:45The Sabbath, in the New Covenant - is to be perpetual rest in Christ - thus its a "state" and not a literal 'day'. Adam and eve were created and BANG, they sinned before entering into God's rest. The Jewish day Rosh Hashana celebrates / recalls this event (that Adam and Eve sinned on the very day that they were created).

The SDA gnostic teaching is that Adam and Eve were created, observed the first sabbath then busted sod and did weeding in the garden of Eden for 6 days and then (in conjunction with the aliens on other planets) observed the Galactic 7th day Sabbath. 

This is a gross misunderstanding of the teaching of what God's rest means.

Additionally, keeping the 7 day Sabbath (in these days) instructs others that you worship the Flesh Father and his primary creature - Michael christ.

More babel, from Babylon.

Hobie

Quote from: Jaime on Sat May 18, 2024 - 07:00:47Personally I don't think Christianity has understood Paul as well as it might claim. Even Peter said Paul was hard to understand.

To me Colossians 2:16 admonishes Christians to not nudge according to the Sabbath. In other words do not judge against those that eat a certain way or observe the Sabbath or A Sabbath. I don't think that abolishes the Sabbath command, God was always their rest in the OT, Jesus is God. Can he not be our rest as well on God's appointed date night for us? If the Sabbath was only a provision for keeping people from being over worked as Jarrod says, maybe so,  it was MUCH more than that in my opinion.
When you make something at Creation and its embedded in the system of time, it cannot be changed or forgotten as its there at the end of each cycle. And it is a holy thing blessed by the Creator and given to man, not the animals or angels, or whatever, but for man..

4WD


Texas Conservative

Quote from: Hobie on Sat May 25, 2024 - 06:55:43When you make something at Creation and its embedded in the system of time, it cannot be changed or forgotten as its there at the end of each cycle. And it is a holy thing blessed by the Creator and given to man, not the animals or angels, or whatever, but for man..

The 7th day was established at creation.  The Sabbath, made for man, was instituted with the Law.  I am not under the Law.  I am not required to keep the Sabbath.

Jesus is my Sabbath rest. 

Amo

Quote from: 4WD on Sat May 25, 2024 - 08:25:46And you complain about delving back into insults.

OK. You make sense of what he said, and I will stand corrected.

Amo

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Sat May 25, 2024 - 09:38:17The 7th day was established at creation.  The Sabbath, made for man, was instituted with the Law.  I am not under the Law.
I am not required to keep the Sabbath.

Jesus is my Sabbath rest. 

Jesus never said He was your Sabbath, He said He was Lord of the Sabbath. He also said -

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Why do you want to be called least in the kingdom of heaven?

Why do you not want to do, what the only commandment of God which tells us what to do rather than what not to do, says to do?

Are you under the law, when you do not do that which the law commands us not to do? If not, why would you be under the law, for doing what a commandment of God asks you to do? Not in order to be saved, but because you already are.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.


Rella

Quote from: Amo on Sat May 25, 2024 - 10:04:32Jesus never said He was your Sabbath, He said He was Lord of the Sabbath. He also said -

Wrong: see QUOTE below


Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Why do you want to be called least in the kingdom of heaven?

Why do you not want to do, what the only commandment of God which tells us what to do rather than what not to do, says to do?

Are you under the law, when you do not do that which the law commands us not to do? If not, why would you be under the law, for doing what a commandment of God asks you to do? Not in order to be saved, but because you already are.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.



Bolding/Color Changes are mine for emphasis:

https://www.gotquestions.org/Ten-Commandments-New-Testament.html

QuoteAre the Ten Commandments repeated in the New Testament?

Ten Commandments in the New Testament
ANSWER

Nine of the Ten Commandments found in Exodus 20:1–17 are repeated in the New Testament numerous times in different ways. For example, in giving a summary of our moral responsibilities to one another, Jesus repeats four of the Ten Commandments to the young ruler in Mark 10:17–19. The only commandment not repeated in the New Testament is the fourth one, the one about Sabbath-keeping.

Paul references the Decalogue a number of times in his epistles. Sometimes, he is explicit in reciting some of the commandments, as he does in Romans 13:9. Other times, he references them implicitly, like in 1 Timothy 1:8–10: "But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers [5th and 6th commandments], for murderers [6th commandment] and immoral men and homosexuals [7th commandment] and kidnappers [8th commandment] and liars and perjurers [9th commandment], and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching" (NASB).

Here are the Ten Commandments and where they are found in the New Testament:

1) Do not worship any other gods (1 Corinthians 8:6; 1 Timothy 2:5)

2) Do not make idols (1 John 5:21)

3) Do not misuse the name of the LORD (1 Timothy 6:1)

4) Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. (There are many references to the Sabbath day in the New Testament, including the assumption that Jews under the law in the time of Christ would be observing the Sabbath. But there is no direct or indirect command for believers in the church age to observe the Sabbath as a day of rest or of worship. In fact, Colossians 2:16 releases the believer from the Sabbath rule. Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, has become for us our Sabbath rest, according to Hebrews 4:1–11.)

5) Honor your father and your mother (Ephesians 6:1–2)

6) Do not murder (Romans 13:9; 1 Peter 4:15)

7) Do not commit adultery (1 Corinthians 6:9–10)

8) Do not steal (Ephesians 4:28)

9) Do not give false testimony (Revelation 21:8)

10) Do not covet (Colossians 3:5)

The Ten Commandments help unbelievers in any age recognize their imperfections. Because it summarizes the moral content of God's law, the Decalogue can be used as a mirror to show people their sin. The commandments reflect the unchanging character of God, so they—like God—are eternal, timeless, universally applicable, and immutable.

Some Christians believe the Ten Commandments are not binding upon believers today. For example, in his book Irresistible: Reclaiming the New that Jesus Unleashed for the World, Andy Stanley says, "The Ten Commandments have no authority over you. None. To be clear: Thou shalt not obey the Ten Commandments" (p. 136). Such thinking is likely not caused by an antinomian mindset, but instead stems from the principle that Christians are not under the law but under grace (Romans 6:14). While it is true that Christ fulfilled the law on our behalf (see Matthew 5:17), the New Testament is clear that believers should not violate God's moral law because of their standing in grace (Romans 6:15).

New Testament believers are freed from the bondage of sin, which allows them to freely live out the Ten Commandments, summarized by Christ this way: "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets" (Matthew 22:36–40, NASB).

4WD


Amo

Quote from: Rella on Sat May 25, 2024 - 11:23:18Bolding/Color Changes are mine for emphasis:

https://www.gotquestions.org/Ten-Commandments-New-Testament.html

Who makes this stuff up? Who made up the rule, that unless a commandment of God is repeated exactly enough in the New Testament, it no longer needs to be kept? Who determines if it was repeated well enough to qualify for this made up rule? Where does this teaching come from? Show it to me from scripture please. I have read the book from cover to cover several times, and recall no such teaching. This is of course apart from the fact that the many scriptures which admonish us to keep God's commandments right up to the last chapter and book of the bible, nullify any such made up nonsense. Topped off by the fact that this made up teaching or rule, is directly contradicted by the teaching and testimony of our Lord and Savior Himself in the oft repeated verses of Mat 5:17-19.

The first three commandments in your made up rule list, are not really repeated, but more like referred to. If those count as a repeat of the commandments, then so certainly does the great deal of time our Lord spent teaching proper Sabbath observance.

Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? 12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Our Lord said that it was lawful to do well or good on the day.

Quotelaw·�ful

1 a : being in harmony with the law
a lawful judgment
b : constituted, authorized, or established by law : RIGHTFUL
lawful institutions
2 : LAW-ABIDING
lawful citizens
Merriam-Webster

Our Lord taught what it was lawful; to do on the sabbath. Obviously teaching then, that the commandment was still to be observed.

Luk 13:10 And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath. 11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself. 12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her,  Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity. 13 And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God. 14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day. 15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering? 16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day? 17 And when he had said these things, all his adversaries were ashamed: and all the people rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by him.

More of the same.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Our Lord prophesied and spoke of sabbath observance in connection with the destruction of Jerusalem and the world, far in the future of His days on earth. What, did our Lord not know that He was going to abolish or change the sabbath?

I guess according to the made up rules you intend to believe and or live by, our Lord teaching and exemplifying proper sabbath observance to crowds of people doesn't count as actually addressing or repeating the fourth commandment. While other allusions to the first three in scripture does. If this is what you wish to build doctrine upon, so be it as you determine for yourself. Nevertheless -

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.




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