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Giants

Started by Amo, Sat May 11, 2019 - 12:21:57

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DaveW

Quote from: Rella on Sun Feb 26, 2023 - 07:42:28
Please... from one creationist to another (me) prove it.
Sorry, there is nothing to "prove."

I am a YEC because it fits the biblical narrative better than anything millions or billions of years long.

Rella

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Feb 27, 2023 - 05:28:16
Sorry, there is nothing to "prove."

I am a YEC because it fits the biblical narrative better than anything millions or billions of years long.

That is what is the common belief when reading the Holy Words.

But I simply see the first 2 verses in Genesis offering a pre-created world before the coming of "life" ( inclusive of plant as well as animal)

I never said millions or billions of years ago. I do not trust the "dating " processes the scientists use. But I do see the wisdom in not blindly accepting it all happened in a mere 144 consecutive hours.

Can you prove it did?

DaveW

Quote from: Rella on Mon Feb 27, 2023 - 05:46:19
I never said millions or billions of years ago. I do not trust the "dating " processes the scientists use. But I do see the wisdom in not blindly accepting it all happened in a mere 144 consecutive hours.

Can you prove it did?
No -  and I have no interest in even trying to do so.

It does not affect the way I live my life in the here and now, and the rest I can pick up when we get to the other side.  So I don't sweat it.

Alan

Quote from: DaveW on Mon Feb 27, 2023 - 06:56:30
No -  and I have no interest in even trying to do so.

It does not affect the way I live my life in the here and now, and the rest I can pick up when we get to the other side.  So I don't sweat it.


That is at least a very honest answer, and one that deserves respect.

Amo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlB22L7vvOE&t=5

Great video about giants. This guy rightly concludes a global flood, giants building the very large ancient structures found all over the world, the remains of which are now buried and partially exposed in various locations. He gets a little off in thinking giants and us regular sized folks lived together though. He states the obvious, that they were more advanced than we are, and that talk of such is taboo or forbidden among those who control the narratives today. Rather than giants and regular humans living together, post flood peoples found or dug up ruins of the pre-flood giants and built upon them. Commemorating and or deifying those of the pre-flood civilizations who were obviously much larger and more advanced than themselves. People who were part of the world occupied by all the other giant plants and animals the fossils of which we find everywhere.

This is not to discount the giants mentioned in scripture who existed along side us, who were only remnants of the antediluvian giants before them.

Amo

#495
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPTgr9ROw5Y

Another video about alien influence and or technology explaining apparent devolving humanity, as opposed to evolution. More theories avoiding the biblical account of creation and destruction, involving a prior superior world, plants, animals, and people. No aliens needed. Post flood humanity often finding the remains of the superior tech and civilization existing before the flood, literally built upon the remains of those structures, and built their societies and religions upon the awe and deification they attributed to the same. Which is also why so many also referenced or had myths regarding giants, the remains of which they also found or speculated of, concerning the very large structures and or building materials employed by the antediluvians.

This is not to mention the physical and mental superiority of humanity itself immediately after the flood, applying such to ancient societies being lost over time by devolving humanity. Or, as the video points out regarding the Roman Catholic Inquisitors, the many attempts by peoples over time to hide the truth of history which they felt threatened them of their kingdoms. Being so obviously superior to what their kingdoms represented. Much as many historians and "scientists" today feel threatened by these evidences which strongly contradict their own narratives. There is also the issue of those who took credit for the works of those before them, that they might be feared and or respected accordingly.

There simply is no question, but that the "ancients" so to speak, were far more knowledgable and advanced than present historical or "scientific" evolutionary narratives allow for.

Rella

Quote from: Amo on Sat Mar 04, 2023 - 20:29:49
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlB22L7vvOE&t=5

Great video about giants. This guy rightly concludes a global flood, giants building the very large ancient structures found all over the world, the remains of which are now buried and partially exposed in various locations. He gets a little off in thinking giants and us regular sized folks lived together though. He states the obvious, that they were more advanced than we are, and that talk of such is taboo or forbidden among those who control the narratives today. Rather than giants and regular humans living together, post flood peoples found or dug up ruins of the pre-flood giants and built upon them. Commemorating and or deifying those of the pre-flood civilizations who were obviously much larger and more advanced than themselves. People who were part of the world occupied by all the other giant plants and animals the fossils of which we find everywhere.

This is not to discount the giants mentioned in scripture who existed along side us, who were only remnants of the antediluvian giants before them.





HMMM.  Somehow I missed this one when first posted. Caught it today.

One comment on this before I move to the next.

At the 10.57 mark in the video shows the carving of what appears to be a normal sized man and a giant.

Or so he describes.

I believe this to be in error and agree that his saying giants lived with normal men at the same time...

This carving shows the giant wearing clothing. The small person is not wearing clothing and is holding the hand of the giant.

I submit for consideration that this is a father and possible son.

Now I shall go look at the next video before further comment

Amo

Could very well be of course.

Amo


Rella

Quote from: Amo on Sat Jun 03, 2023 - 11:38:01
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPTgr9ROw5Y

Another video about alien influence and or technology explaining apparent devolving humanity, as opposed to evolution. More theories avoiding the biblical account of creation and destruction, involving a prior superior world, plants, animals, and people. No aliens needed. Post flood humanity often finding the remains of the superior tech and civilization existing before the flood, literally built upon the remains of those structures, and built their societies and religions upon the awe and deification they attributed to the same. Which is also why so many also referenced or had myths regarding giants, the remains of which they also found or speculated of, concerning the very large structures and or building materials employed by the antediluvians.

This is not to mention the physical and mental superiority of humanity itself immediately after the flood, applying such to ancient societies being lost over time by devolving humanity. Or, as the video points out regarding the Roman Catholic Inquisitors, the many attempts by peoples over time to hide the truth of history which they felt threatened them of their kingdoms. Being so obviously superior to what their kingdoms represented. Much as many historians and "scientists" today feel threatened by these evidences which strongly contradict their own narratives. There is also the issue of those who took credit for the works of those before them, that they might be feared and or respected accordingly.

There simply is no question, but that the "ancients" so to speak, were far more knowledgable and advanced than present historical or "scientific" evolutionary narratives allow for.


I personally find videos of this kind to not hold my interest beyond the occasional jaw dropping sight
that are shown without explanation of how they came into being.

is there the possibility of extraterrestrials of some sort... be them little green men or angels.. having built
these structures.... I suppose... just as I suppose they could have come into being by something supernatural and or spiritual.

Perhaps the giants that were mentioned in the last video right above this one????

What always bothers me is that there is all of this evidence of all of these buildings from pyramids to cities, to housing that is beyond explanation.

Like those of our native American cliff dwellers that I saw in person and totally defied logical explanation.

I just did not buy what they said.

But we have solid concrete... if I can use that term for stone... evidence

What we do not have... and I am referring to the giants video above... anywhere in the entire world
that there has been human fossil remains.

No bones or teeth.

All museums have some piece of something giant that they reconstruct a bird, or fish, or dinosaur around...
all claiming the piece of whatever is very, very old... pre-history... if you will... but no sign that there
were any really big people.

If they existed and had the apparent intelligence to construct the things they did... world wide....
don't you think they would have found a way to do something that would leave a real trace of who or what they are?

Heck... even the Egyptians were able to preserve a semblance of a body in mummification.

And if others ... say before Adam were building these things.... and they all... each and every single one of them cremated the dead... why do we not find any cremation ovens.

DONT GET ME WRONG. I absolutely believe there were giants. The bible says so.

But something big enough would leave a dent upon demise.... or some recording somewhere yet there is nothing.

I cannot in all good conscience believe they were all built by ETs... and there are not nor were their ever other Gods.

Our heavenly Father is and has been the only one.

So there is a lot we dont and cannot know until we get to the other side.

Know... the last quandary would be for those YEC folks.

From day 1 as mentioned in the bible until Noahs flood they claim it was

Consider: Genesis chapter five provides the genealogy from Adam to Noah including the years between each generation. This can be used to determine the number of years between creation and the flood. A simple addition of these ages suggests that there were 1656 years from creation to the flood. However, there are four issues that make this calculation subject to some variation.

In http://amunrud.com/noah/noahyears.html#:~:text=Summary%3AA%20reasonable%20estimate%20of%20the%20time%20from%20creation,a%20ten%20year%20%22converting%20ages%20to%20years%22%20increase.

Is a chart that suggests the years from Adam to the flood

Masoretic   1656

Samaritan   1307

Septuagint 2242

Not all that long.....

It the beings , giant or not, built these cities and things found world wide... without the use of modern
technology... it seems incomprehensible to consider.

And then all of everything was destroyed in the flood except these kinds of buildings?

I have no answer other then to say they obviously came about before the flood.... and I personally believe before Adam.

But Ill keep on reading and looking and studying for it at the very least is very very interesting and good fodder for the mind

Amo

Quote from: Rella on Sun Jun 04, 2023 - 11:07:44
I personally find videos of this kind to not hold my interest beyond the occasional jaw dropping sight
that are shown without explanation of how they came into being.

is there the possibility of extraterrestrials of some sort... be them little green men or angels.. having built
these structures.... I suppose... just as I suppose they could have come into being by something supernatural and or spiritual.

Perhaps the giants that were mentioned in the last video right above this one????

What always bothers me is that there is all of this evidence of all of these buildings from pyramids to cities, to housing that is beyond explanation.

Like those of our native American cliff dwellers that I saw in person and totally defied logical explanation.

I just did not buy what they said.

But we have solid concrete... if I can use that term for stone... evidence

What we do not have... and I am referring to the giants video above... anywhere in the entire world
that there has been human fossil remains.

No bones or teeth.

All museums have some piece of something giant that they reconstruct a bird, or fish, or dinosaur around...
all claiming the piece of whatever is very, very old... pre-history... if you will... but no sign that there
were any really big people.

If they existed and had the apparent intelligence to construct the things they did... world wide....
don't you think they would have found a way to do something that would leave a real trace of who or what they are?

Heck... even the Egyptians were able to preserve a semblance of a body in mummification.

And if others ... say before Adam were building these things.... and they all... each and every single one of them cremated the dead... why do we not find any cremation ovens.

DONT GET ME WRONG. I absolutely believe there were giants. The bible says so.

But something big enough would leave a dent upon demise.... or some recording somewhere yet there is nothing.

I cannot in all good conscience believe they were all built by ETs... and there are not nor were their ever other Gods.

Our heavenly Father is and has been the only one.

So there is a lot we dont and cannot know until we get to the other side.

Know... the last quandary would be for those YEC folks.

From day 1 as mentioned in the bible until Noahs flood they claim it was

Consider: Genesis chapter five provides the genealogy from Adam to Noah including the years between each generation. This can be used to determine the number of years between creation and the flood. A simple addition of these ages suggests that there were 1656 years from creation to the flood. However, there are four issues that make this calculation subject to some variation.

In http://amunrud.com/noah/noahyears.html#:~:text=Summary%3AA%20reasonable%20estimate%20of%20the%20time%20from%20creation,a%20ten%20year%20%22converting%20ages%20to%20years%22%20increase.

Is a chart that suggests the years from Adam to the flood

Masoretic   1656

Samaritan   1307

Septuagint 2242

Not all that long.....

It the beings , giant or not, built these cities and things found world wide... without the use of modern
technology... it seems incomprehensible to consider.

And then all of everything was destroyed in the flood except these kinds of buildings?

I have no answer other then to say they obviously came about before the flood.... and I personally believe before Adam.

But Ill keep on reading and looking and studying for it at the very least is very very interesting and good fodder for the mind

There is actually a great deal of recorded evidence of many discoveries of the remains of giant humans. Written records abound throughout history. Very few actual physical evidences though, which these written records testify of. There is no question in my mind, that if such evidences have actually existed as so many have testified they do or did throughout history, it would be the Devil's exact purpose to destroy all such. Especially since countless millions of the world today, have been duped by the false deep time theory of evolution. The existence of giant humans in the past, would basically trash this theory. In that it would make evident that plants, animals, and humans were all superior to us in the past. Which certainly does not fit the present evolutionary model. Though the theory does show great ability to adapt and completely abandon prior teachings proved wrong, which were presented by them as scientific fact at one time. 

Wycliffes_Shillelagh

Quote from: Rella on Sun Jun 04, 2023 - 11:07:44
Is a chart that suggests the years from Adam to the flood

Masoretic   1656

Samaritan   1307

Septuagint 2242

Not all that long.....
There are lots of problems with those numbers.

One is that when you add up the Septuagint numbers, the result is that Methusaleh lived through the flood.  But we are told nobody but the 8 members of the Noah family survived.  The Masoretic and Samaritan texts (which are not as old) have solved this problem by making each patriarch 100 years younger when they became a father.  This is a case where we have evidence that the scribes tampered with the text.  Whatever the original text said... we don't have it anymore.

Jarrod

Jaime

Good video on the corrupted Masoretic text:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VI1yRTC6kGE

DaveW

Quote from: Jaime on Mon Jun 05, 2023 - 13:31:51
Good video on the corrupted Masoretic text:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VI1yRTC6kGE
I attended a class in the summer of '95 at the UMJC summer conference in Chicago put on by Rus Resnick on the history and changes made in the Masoretic text.  The Masorites started working about 1000 ad and it was published circa 1500 ad.  Their expressed purpose was to add vowel pointing to the text to preserve proper pronunciation of the Hebrew text which lacked vowels. A secondary purpose was to impede the Church from using the Hebrew scriptures to prove Jesus was the Messiah.

Apparently in that day there were competing OT manuscripts just as we have for the New Testament. So they started with the least messianic manuscripts and worked from there.  As they went, they rounded up all competing manuscripts and destroyed them.  They were not as interested in textural or historical accuracy as they were in preserving the anti-messiah stance. We no longer have any of those older texts, except for the fragments from the Dead Sea Scrolls. They could not destroy the Septuagint, which was not considered true Scripture by the Jews.  It was just a bad translation so Gentiles could see what was in the Torah. There are enough differences between the Septuagint and the Masoretic texts that a "proto-septuagint" Hebrew text has been theorized.  No copies have ever been found.

So yes, there were changes made to the OT text. 

Jaime

#504
For this reason, I always keep a Septuagint handy along with my NASB or KJV or Blue Letter online Bible app when studying the OT. The Septuagint was Paul's OT scriptures or at least he quoted from it quite a bit. Since the KJV, NASB, ESV and others carried on the Masoretic corruptions, I was surprised to find out all this since at least the KJV was the pristine "authorized version" in my youth.

Wycliffes_Shillelagh

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Jun 06, 2023 - 10:56:05
They could not destroy the Septuagint, which was not considered true Scripture by the Jews.  It was just a bad translation so Gentiles could see what was in the Torah. There are enough differences between the Septuagint and the Masoretic texts that a "proto-septuagint" Hebrew text has been theorized.
This is untrue.

The majority of Jews in the world were using the Septuagint (LXX) as their primary scripture by the 1st century AD.  For that matter, a majority of Jews did not use Hebrew as a spoken language (they used some combination of Aramaic, Greek, or Egyptian, depending on location).

A study of the usage of words between the Septuagint and the New Testament shows that they match very precisely - more precisely than the Masoretic text OR the Dead Sea Scrolls.  Where the New Testament quotes the Old Testament, its text also matches the LXX.  The 1st-century church in Judea used the LXX as their Scriptures.

Jarrod

DaveW

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Jun 06, 2023 - 11:55:54
The majority of Jews in the world were using the Septuagint (LXX) as their primary scripture by the 1st century AD.  For that matter, a majority of Jews did not use Hebrew as a spoken language (they used some combination of Aramaic, Greek, or Egyptian, depending on location).
Jews in the Diaspora used either the Aramaic Targums or the LXX, but understood that the Hebrew text was the ACTUAL word of God, not the translations.  Something I believe most christians should also understand.
QuoteA study of the usage of words between the Septuagint and the New Testament shows that they match very precisely - more precisely than the Masoretic text OR the Dead Sea Scrolls.  Where the New Testament quotes the Old Testament, its text also matches the LXX.  The 1st-century church in Judea used the LXX as their Scriptures.
Of course.  Since our oldest and best Greek NT mss date to the 300s ad, and come from mostly Greek and Roman occupied areas, when the scribes copied the texts they used the LXX to make sure they quoted correctly.  That is why the texts are identical to the LXX. 

Manuscripts from the same era that are in Aramaic differ in certain areas, and they do NOT mimic the LXX. They do however contain a lot of Semitic word play which does not come across in the Greek texts. That means they were NOT translated from the Greek but had a Semitic language original source.

DaveW

Quote from: Jaime on Tue Jun 06, 2023 - 11:49:32
For this reason, I always keep a Septuagint handy along with my NASB or KJV or Blue Letter online Bible app when studying the OT. The Septuagint was Paul's OT scriptures or at least he quoted from it quite a bit. Since the KJV, NASB, ESV and others carried on the Masoretic corruptions, I was surprised to find out all this since at least the KJV was the pristine "authorized version" in my youth.
Yeah - I was taught that too.

Usually I have a 1950s translation of the whole bible from the Aramaic (manuscripts from the 300s-400s ad) so all the OT predates the Masoretic changes, and the double translation errors from Aramaic to Greek to English. It is not available now as my entire library is boxed up.  we are in the process of moving and this house has not sold yet.  So in the interest of "declutter" that is in storage right now.

Wycliffes_Shillelagh

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Jun 06, 2023 - 13:15:11Manuscripts from the same era that are in Aramaic differ in certain areas, and they do NOT mimic the LXX. They do however contain a lot of Semitic word play which does not come across in the Greek texts. That means they were NOT translated from the Greek but had a Semitic language original source.
The majority of scholars seem to disagree... do you have some examples, or a source you can point me to?

Amo


Rella


Amo

Yea, I'll have to find the time as well. Looks interesting.

Amo


Rella

Simply amazing.

Every single time I want to stop posting for a time, or tima anfd a half, something comes along and I find myself right here.

Anyway... in the vein of the subject of this thread I just got... to my inbox ( where else?)

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/hebrew-bible/rock-giants-in-noah/?mqsc=E4159464&dk=ZE4130ZF0&utm_source=WhatCountsEmail&utm_medium=BHDA%20Daily%20Newsletter%201-90&utm_campaign=03_04_24_Nabonidus_The_First_Archaeologist

But the exciting "news" is this one mentions the book of Enoch...

QuoteRock Giants in Noah
Can the Book of Enoch shed light on Noah the movie?

 Megan Sauter  March 02, 2024  76 Comments  151277 views  Shareronald-hendel
Ronald S. Hendel

Who—or what—are the rock giants in Noahthe movie?

Genesis 6 makes no mention of rock giants—or fallen angels—helping Noah build the ark. Where then did the rock giants in Noah the movie come from? Are they merely an invention by Hollywood scriptwriters?

The Hollywood blockbuster Noah has generated its fair share of controversy, with some saying the movie took too many liberties with the Biblical text. Certainly it is not a straightforward retelling of the flood story in Genesis 6, but as Ronald S. Hendel points out in his Biblical Views column "Noah, Enoch, and the Flood: The Bible Meets Hollywood," which appears in the July/August 2014 issue of BAR, the flood story has been reimagined in Christian and Jewish texts, such as the apocryphal Book of Enoch, for millennia.

While rock giants are absent from the Book of Genesis, the Book of Enoch might shed light on their identity.


FREE ebook: Exploring Genesis: The Bible's Ancient Traditions in Context Mesopotamian creation myths, Joseph's relationship with Egyptian temple practices and 3 tales of Ur, the birthplace of Abraham.


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The Book of Enoch is a collection of texts, the earliest dating to the third century B.C.E., supposedly authored by the famous Enoch of the Bible, who lived "in the seventh generation from Adam" (Jude 14) and was taken by God: "Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him" (Genesis 5:24). This apocryphal book reimagines the account of Genesis 5–6, adding details to the flood narrative and elaborating on what was revealed to Enoch in heaven.

noah-rock-giants
Who are the rock giants in Noah the movie? Are they to be identified with the Watchers, fallen angels in the Book of Enoch?

In its expansion of the flood account we are introduced to the Watchers, fallen angels who mated with human women and produced offspring—the Nephilim, the "heroes that were of old, warriors of renown" of Genesis 6:4—or giants. The Book of Enoch states that the Watchers shared secret knowledge with their sons that led to the corruption of the world. The giants ravaged the earth, filling it with destruction and evil; they depleted the world of food and terrified humankind. These actions trigger the flood.

For more on Hollywood movies, read "Excruciating Exodus Movie Exudes Errors," "The 'Gods of Egypt' Movie: A Mess of Anachronisms and Exoticization" and "Blending into One: The 'Left Behind' Movie, the Book of Revelation and the Rapture."

noah-movie
Darren Aronofsky's Noah (2014).

When Enoch confronts the Watchers about their impending doom, they implore him to intercede on their behalf. He agrees—but to no avail. The Watchers' petition is not granted; they and their sons are not able to escape their punishment—the flood.

Returning to our earlier question: Who are the rock giants in Noah the movie? They're called fallen angels and are based loosely on the Watchers we see in the Book of Enoch.

To find out more about the Genesis Flood and the Book of Enoch, read the full column "Noah, Enoch, and the Flood: The Bible Meets Hollywood" by Ronald S. Hendel in the July/August 2014 issue of BAR.

Amo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-aN1rdP3hA

Interesting video about the changing narrative relating to the occupation of the Americas by humans. Finding evidence for the continents being inhabited long before the Clovis peoples.

The narrative of the Clovis peoples being here first was wrong. Not only was it wrong, but those who believed this and claimed the evidence was here in the past, were ridiculed and had their careers destroyed. With no small participation from the Smithsonian in the smear campaigns.

There are similar claims of course in relation to the many reports of giant skeletal remains being found throughout the U.S. and elsewhere as well. Regarding the Smithsonian and others who simply chose to destroy this narrative which caused a major problem for the theory of evolution.

The video also speaks a lot about the flood conditions evidenced in the U.S. as well. Sticking with deep time false narratives of course, while admitting of the mysteries which still baffle them in relation to the same. Claiming no alternative to consider, while completely ignoring the biblical account of the flood. Which certain Creationists have correctly postulated, could explain and or have produced the evidence of large meteor and or other sourced impact sites in the U.S. and around the world. Which the video claims were the cause of the floods.

Choosing to ignore the biblical flood account as an explanation for the actual evidence observed, does not mean  that the flood itself as described could not have been the catastrophe which created that evidence. This is simply where most do not choose to go. Nevertheless, all of this evidence can easily be attributed to the global flood catastrophe described in the scriptures, and the many lesser catastrophes that would have no doubt followed afterwards. As a direct result of the same. 

 

Amo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPRFLBZr3uo

This video observably confirms that inferior civilizations and peoples built upon the ruins of more ancient and advanced civilizations of the past. Probably even basing their religions and cultures upon the remains of ancient more advanced civilizations they deified as it were, for the wonders of skill and technology they realized those before were capable of.

A whole lot of the evidence of more advanced peoples and tech in the video looks far more like imprints left in the sediments from the flood which later hardened, than actual carved out of rock stairs, structures, and such. Obvious ruins and chaos left over from the catastrophic flood event described in holy scripture. With many imprints of things once entombed in mud and sediments which have now hardened into rock, the items themselves being long since decayed, rotted and our rusted into oblivion.

Amo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdYiItXR01I

Another interesting video. Which also points out the use of more ancient higher tech ruins as a base for later constructions by later lower tech societies.

While I do not agree with the deep time narrative of the video, it is obvious that nature itself has and does create seemingly designed or precisely cut rock formations. These I believe however, according to my faith, were the result of the global catastrophic events of the biblical flood. Which provided the global watery, muddy, volcanic, seismic, rapid heating and cooling, and so on and so forth conditions, which produced these seeming anomalies.

The abundance of such seeming anomalies may have provided the early post flood developing civilizations with a lot of free building materials for the many large monuments and or structures we find among their ruins. Needing little to no work to shape, with only the problem of moving and setting them in place to address. This is apart also from the possibility of them using what remnants of the ruins of the pre flood world they may have discovered and used as a base to build upon as well.

I found the Native American account of the flood very interesting as well. 

Amo


Rella

I find this stuff absolutely fascinating.

It also can be opening up a real can of worms.... under the "What If " headings

Such as... What if there was an advanced civilization inhabiting the earth before God made man in Genesis....? Possibly a series of civilizations?

After all... those of you who read and follow KJV only have to admit that his men's translation was a bit odd when it was not in the Greek
Interlinear or Peshitta like that.

Hebrews 1:2 King James Version
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;�

Hebrews 11:3 King James Version
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.


3 Resurrections

Quote from: Rella on Sun Apr 21, 2024 - 12:10:18Hebrews 1:2 King James Version
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;�

Hebrews 11:3 King James Version
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Rella, in both of these Hebrews texts, the word "worlds" (plural) should be "AGES" (aionas) as in the YLT and other literal versions. 

But even though these two Hebrews verses can't be used as proof texts for pre-Adamic  inhabitants of this planet, I believe Genesis 1:2 can.  The original languages indicate that "the world BECAME without form and void...", as if God had used this globe for other purposes before Creation week, and obliterated the conditions of that world (or even a series of other civilizations) to repurpose this planet for humanity's use.

In other words, I believe it is possible that we could be occupying an extremely ancient planet which was being renovated during Creation week.  This would explain the apparent difference between the roughly 6,000-year history of mankind on this planet and the dates which are given to the planet's material elements themselves.

Jaime

#520
Looks to me like in all versions, the earth WAS created formless and void. It didn't BECOME formless and void from some other state of existence, at least from the text as written. Verse 2 describes the state of the just created earth in verse 1.

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Genesis%201:2


Wycliffes_Shillelagh

Quote from: Jaime on Sun Apr 21, 2024 - 18:37:35Looks to me like in all versions, the earth WAS created formless and void. It didn't BECOME formless and void from some other state of existence, at least from the text as written. Verse 2 describes the state of the just created earth in verse 1.

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Genesis%201:2
Many scholars now translate more like...

"At the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and earth, the earth was formless and void..."

If that's so, then Genesis 1:1 doesn't describe creation ex nihilo, but rather it describes God FORMING some pre-existing material that has no defined shape.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmFE-qjoksc&t=4s

Jaime

#522
Interesting for sure. I was just addressing 3R's comment anout what the translated text says. I would have given him grace if he had said it "should have been translated thus and and so." But no present translations says "became."

Rella

Quote from: Jaime on Sun Apr 21, 2024 - 18:37:35Looks to me like in all versions, the earth WAS created formless and void. It didn't BECOME formless and void from some other state of existence, at least from the text as written. Verse 2 describes the state of the just created earth in verse 1.

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Genesis%201:2



But the question remains..... WHEN.

Certainly this ball of mud and weeds at some point was nothing.

But it could well have come into existence.... some creations made.... some creation ended and then eventually mankind that we have been told about came.

All these findings of allegedly old buildings and such that they say came before the flood... Noah's flood... had to have had a source and I just dont see our early ancestors doing it....




Jaime

#524
I agree, but again 3Rs claimed the text said became, it didn't, but i can entertain a mistranslation, though it is kinda frustrating being the 2nd sentence in the entire story. The potential of totally game changing translation errors seem quite likely. Similar to the ages of Shem's descendants being 100 years off on every one of the descendents and ON PURPOSE.

I've posted this before:



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