I came across this which seems to indicated that the Sabbath truth needs to be given more fully as it is going to become the focus of the whole world. Spirit of Prophecy has the following:
" At the commencement of the time of trouble, we were filled with the Holy Ghost as we went forth and proclaimed the Sabbath more fully." {LDE 143.1}
The law of God, through the agency of Satan, is to be made void. In our land of boasted freedom religious liberty will come to an end. The contest will be decided over the Sabbath question, which will agitate the whole world.—Evangelism, 236 (1875). {LDE 144.1}
A great crisis awaits the people of God. Very soon our nation will attempt to enforce upon all the observance of the first day of the week as a sacred day. In doing this they will not scruple to compel men against the voice of their own conscience to observe the day the nation declares to be the Sabbath.—The Review and Herald Extra, December 11, 1888. {LDE 144.2}
Seventh-day Adventists will fight the battle over the seventh-day Sabbath. The authorities in the United States and in other countries will rise up in their pride and power and make laws to restrict religious liberty.—Manuscript 78, 1897. {LDE 144.3}
The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience.—The Great Controversy, 588 (1911). {LDE 144.4}
All who will not bow to the decree of the national councils and obey the national laws to exalt the sabbath instituted by the man of sin, to the disregard of God's holy day, will feel, not the oppressive power of popery alone, but of the Protestant world, the image of the beast.—Selected Messages 2:380 (1886). {LDE 145.1}
Those religious bodies who refuse to hear God's messages of warning will be under strong deception and will unite with the civil power to persecute the saints. The Protestant churches will unite with the papal power in persecuting the commandment-keeping people of God.... {LDE 145.2}
Those who live during the last days of this earth's history will know what it means to be persecuted for the truth's sake. In the courts injustice will prevail. The judges will refuse to listen to the reasons of those who are loyal to the commandments of God because they know the arguments in favor of the fourth commandment are unanswerable. They will say, "We have a law, and by our law he ought to die." God's law is nothing to them. "Our law" with them is supreme. Those who respect this human law will be favored, but those who will not bow to the idol sabbath have no favors shown them.—The Signs of the Times, May 26, 1898. {LDE 145.5}
In cases where we are brought before the courts, we are to give up our rights, unless it brings us in collision with God. It is not our rights we are pleading for, but God's right to our service.—Manuscript Releases 5:69 (1895). {LDE 146.1}
Hobie:
Those religious bodies who refuse to hear God's messages of warning will be under strong deception and will unite with the civil power to persecute the saints. The Protestant churches will unite with the papal power in persecuting the commandment-keeping people of God.... {LDE 145.2}
For as long as Seventh Day Sabbath believers allow the Sunday-Sabbath and its believers privity and privilege between Resurrection and Day of Resurrection, they don't stand a chance to ever get persecuted for Sabbath truth, because there's no parting in the divergence.
: Gerhard Ebersöhn Tue Oct 30, 2018 - 10:34:53
For as long as Seventh Day Sabbath believers allow the Sunday-Sabbath and its believers privity and privilege between Resurrection and Day of Resurrection, they don't stand a chance to ever get persecuted for Sabbath truth, because there's no parting in the divergence.
The Jesuits and their Pope would differ with you...
Hobie:
The Jesuits and their Pope would differ with you...
as do all Sabbath 'keepers'.
In our land of boasted freedom religious liberty will come to an end. The contest will be decided over the Sabbath question, which will agitate the whole world.—Evangelism, 236 (1875). {LDE 144.1}
This prediction has already failed. It is a matter of religious liberty to be able to protest against the terrible atrocities committed against the Palestinians by the Zionist regime. Undeniably, the right of free speech is supposed to be a fundamental, constitutionally protected right. Yet, the United Snakes of America support the unquestionably unconstitutional US State Department declaration that "drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis (https://www.state.gov/s/rga/resources/267538.htm)" is antisemitic.
Shubee:
This prediction has already failed. It is a matter of religious liberty to be able to protest against the terrible atrocities committed against the Palestinians by the Zionist regime. Undeniably, the right of free speech is supposed to be a fundamental, constitutionally protected right. Yet, the United Snakes of America support the unquestionably unconstitutional US State Department declaration that "drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis" is antisemitic.
What has this got to do with proclaiming the Sabbath more fully?
Your Sabbath and your proclaiming the Sabbath are ossified dead and dry legalism because its "SUBSTANCE" is not "Christ" Resurrected from the dead "ON THE SABBATH".
What has this got to do with proclaiming the Sabbath more fully?
I was addressing an Ellen White statement that Hobie cited. My point was to expose an undeniable flaw in Seventh-day Adventist eschatology. Specifically: Ellen White predicted that the U.S. Constitution would be repealed for the purpose of endorsing a popular movement to exalt Sunday sacredness. The facts are that the U.S. Constitution has already been rescinded but not for the purpose of exalting any imagined sacredness of Sunday. There are no ominous Sunday laws in sight.
Your Sabbath and your proclaiming the Sabbath are ossified dead and dry legalism because its "SUBSTANCE" is not "Christ" Resurrected from the dead "ON THE SABBATH".
Your judgment is the judgment of self. I can't imagine anything more legalistic than trying to manufacture an issue where none exists.
Your judgment is the judgment of self. I can't imagine anything more legalistic than trying to manufacture an issue where none exists.
'The judgement of self' - yes, I'll show you how it applies to you by showing you the real issue that really exists and is very much alive and rules by LAW OF SCRIPTURE! By Scripture yes, Scripture that lays down the laws for and of your thinking as well as of the world including non-believers. The 'issue' entirely consists of TWISTING, CHANGE AND CORRUPTION OF PROTESTANT, REFORMATION SCRIPTURE into recent, modern, ROMAN CATHOLIC CORRUPTION of Scripture. Closing your eyes, mind and heart to this reality of TRUTH is YOUR manufactured judgemental and self-justifying 'legalism'. And the TWISTED, CHANGED AND CORRUPTED PROTESTANT REFORMATION SCRIPTURE, FOLLOW THE HISTORIC AND TRUE SEQUENCE OF THE EVENTS AND DAYS DURING JESUS' LAST PASSOVER.
There are dozens of these specific abused Scriptures; not one in the last chapters of the four Gospels or relevant passages in the rest of the New Testament escaped the FRAUD AND VIOLATION from one motivation and for one goal in sight, the LEGALISATION of Christianity's veneration of Sunday. Such is the LEGALISM of idolatrous quasi, false, populist, political one world principality, power, might, dominion and authority SUBMITTED UNDER AND SERVING ANTI-CHRIST RELIGION.
Those religious bodies who refuse to hear God's messages of warning will be under strong deception and will unite with the civil power to persecute the saints. The Protestant churches will unite with the papal power in persecuting the commandment-keeping people of God.... {LDE 145.2}
It has always amused me how the SDA refuse to see themselves as one of these 'religious bodies who refuse to hear God's messages of warning'.
For the past forty to fifty years they are doing nothing but refuse to hear God's messages of SCRIPTURE warning them Jesus did not rise from the dead on Sunday but "on the Sabbath" thus providing the ONLY REASON FOR BEING OF IT AS THE REST DAY OF GOD JESUS BEING GOD'S REST GIVEN IN IT.
Jesus did not rise from the dead on Sunday but "on the Sabbath"
Extraordinary fanaticism. Where did you get this message?
Why preach the sabbath which is a shadow when the reality of the gospel and Jesus is now a reality.
The Cross is present truth - not the sabbath or any "beast".
The Cross is present truth - not the sabbath or any "beast".
More precisely, the Cross is eternal, enduring and present truth but let it be understood that the message of the cross is to accompany the three angels' messages (http://truthinverity.org/three-angels-messages/), which is a revelation from God the Father.
Current occupant2:
Why preach the sabbath which is a shadow when the reality of the gospel and Jesus is now a reality.
The Cross is present truth - not the sabbath or any "beast".
Who 'preach the sabbath which is a shadow'? I 'preach the Sabbath' of which Christ is the Lord and because He is the Reality of it. And yes, I 'preach' the "Sabbath of the LORD GOD" because it is the present truth 'shadow' of Him the Son of Man Lord of the Sabbath Day which HE MADE GREAT THROUGH HAVING RESURRECTED ON IT. Nothing else ever made the Sabbath great than Christ's Resurrection!
Do you want me to deny Jesus' Lordship of the Sabbath Day? Then I must deny his Resurrection "on the Sabbath" "according to the Scriptures" "the third day" of the Passover of Yahweh, the truth He preached He would and eventually exactly, literally and in REALITY, DID DO AND THUS, 'PREACHED' - yea, preached in "THE POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION". Oh that I might Know HIM and preach the Sabbath of the LORD my God for the POWER OF THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST TO SAVE!
I 'preach the Sabbath'
And I've proven Shubert's Date Line Existence Theorem (http://everythingimportant.org/IDL.pdf). Consequently, Seventh-day Millerites affirm that the Seventh-day Sabbath is an unfulfilled prophecy (http://everythingimportant.org/Millerites).
And I've proven Shubert's Date Line Existence Theorem. Consequently, Seventh-day Millerites affirm that the Seventh-day Sabbath is an unfulfilled prophecy.
All of no consequence whatsoever, nevertheless the Sabbath awaits much unfulfilled prophecy about it. No one however needs 'Shubert's Date Line' to prove it. God will prove The Lordly Day of the Lord like He has proven it both "in times past" and "in these last days", in The Last Day at the Coming of His Christ in glory.
The 'issue' entirely consists of TWISTING, CHANGE AND CORRUPTION OF PROTESTANT, REFORMATION SCRIPTURE into recent, modern, ROMAN CATHOLIC CORRUPTION of Scripture.
I don't know anyone that regards you as an authority on the proper translation of the Scriptures. How competent are you in understanding ancient Greek manuscripts?
All of no consequence whatsoever,
Shubert's Date Line Existence Theorem has monumental consequences for everyone slavishly devoted to exalting Ellen G. White.
More precisely, the Cross is eternal, enduring and present truth but let it be understood that the message of the cross is to accompany the three angels' messages, which is a revelation from God the Father.
All I could make out about 'the three angels' messages' has been that the SDA HAVE NO KOEKEN KLOE what they are about.
For the past forty to fifty years they are doing nothing but refuse to hear God's messages of SCRIPTURE warning them Jesus did not rise from the dead on Sunday but "on the Sabbath"
That's a long time to ride a hobbyhorse. I didn't know that a hobbyhorse could live so long.
All I could make out about 'the three angels' messages' has been that the SDA HAVE NO KOEKEN KLOE what they are about.
So what's your excuse?
Shubert's Date Line Existence Theorem has monumental consequences for everyone slavishly devoted to exalting Ellen G. White.
I see the other day there are 21 million SDA. I'll guess, excluding all leadership and fossils, that not 1 million of confessing SDA are 'slavishly devoted to exalting Ellen G. White' like another 21 million ex- and or neo-SDA are.
That's a long time to ride a hobbyhorse. I didn't know that a hobbyhorse could live so long.
It's because you're a plain no-nothing that's why. You don't know the Scriptures and don't care to know them. All you care about, all you are, is you're slavishly devoted to demolish Quixote's windmill Ellen G. White.
You don't know the Scriptures
I confess that I don't know anything about your secret Scriptures where, allegedly, Christ was resurrected on a Saturday.
I don't know anyone that regards you as an authority on the proper translation of the Scriptures. How competent are you in understanding ancient Greek manuscripts?
One thing for sure I know better than the Scriptures, is to recognise you, 'Shubee', when I see you. But after so long a while that you have been using this trade-mark phraseology for advertising your empty cans, you haven't found something to fill them with and sell them for.
You empty tin can! I am such an authority on the proper translation of the Scriptures and so competent in understanding Greek and Greek manuscripts that you couldn't show mistake or correct or refute or in any way answer me as much as in a single case.
Quote
Shubee
I don't know anyone that regards you as an authority on the proper translation of the Scriptures. How competent are you in understanding ancient Greek manuscripts?
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/proclaining-the-sabbath-more-fully-at-the-end-time/new/#new#25
Gerhard Ebersöhn
One thing for sure I know better than the Scriptures, is to recognise you, 'Shubee', when I see you. But after so long a while that you have been using this trade-mark phraseology for advertising your empty cans, you haven't found something to fill them with and sell them for.
You empty tin can! I am such an authority on the proper translation of the Scriptures and so competent in understanding Greek and Greek manuscripts that you couldn't show mistake or correct or refute or in any way answer me in as much as a single case.
I am such an authority on the proper translation of the Scriptures and so competent in understanding Greek and Greek manuscripts blah, blah blah...
For how many years have you taught Koine Greek and who has published your research?
I confess that I don't know anything about your secret Scriptures where, allegedly, Christ was resurrected on a Saturday.
Not only ignorant in the Scriptures, but twisting my statements.
I have not and never would and will not ever say 'Christ was resurrected on a Saturday' using the word 'Saturday' for "the Sabbath of the LORD GOD". But you say you don't know anything about THIS Scripture WHERE, unambiguously the Word of God says that Christ was Resurrected on it, "the Seventh Day God thus concerning SPAKE: And God THAT DAY the Seventh Day from all his works RESTED".
But you claim God rested while NOT having revived and raised Christ from the dead. Well I believe and I SAY IT, that God did NOT rest unless or and until HE RAISED JESUS FROM THE DEAD LORD AND CHRIST!
I have not and never would and will not ever say 'Christ was resurrected on a Saturday' using the word 'Saturday' for "the Sabbath of the LORD GOD".
Yes, your fanaticism has been recognized immediately.
For how many years have you taught Koine Greek and who has published your research?
Still unanswered. Why are you refusing to direct the readers of this forum to your secret SCRIPTURES?
Yes, your fanaticism has been recognized immediately.
Beautiful example! This shows what I like so much about me; I bring out the truth from my opposition virtually always immediately and if not immediately, eventually; the longer it takes, the more effectively and revealing. As it were a wonder happens before the eye: in between every two words one word in huge letters flames and dances in red and crimson:
FEAR...
Still unanswered. Why are you refusing to direct the readers of this forum to your secret SCRIPTURES?
Watch yourself and your own reactions to what I write and publish and for halve a century HAVE written and published BUT YOU HAVE NOT READ at all. And you ask me this laughable senseless and self-contradicting and self-destructive 'question' such as I have received from not one of hundreds, yes, of thousands of actual knowledgeable persons including some of the best and greatest scholars living? Don't you tire of parading your ignorance and total lack of comprehension? Ts ts... All my writing is out there, published, challenging Biblical scholarship every second of every day. And have I received recognition, quietly or and with much noise like in your case? Like no Bible interested individual EVER IN HISTORY. And you are one proof.
All my writing is out there, published, challenging Biblical scholarship every second of every day.
Published, as in forum posts but not in recognized journals? Sorry, I do not recognize facebook as a legitimate platform.
I have received from not one of hundreds, yes, of thousands of actual knowledgeable persons including some of the best and greatest scholars living?
You have received what? Wow! Someone is nice to you on the internet and you claim it as a validation of your secret gospel.
Bone-Day of The Lost Passover Bone-Day [etsem yom ...
www.gracecentered.com/.../bone-day-of-the-lost-passover-bone...
29 Mrt. 2015 - "...in the selfsame whole day bone day... [etsem yom] ...as when in the days of Noah an ark was being prepared the longsuffering of God ...
http://www.biblestudents.co.za
https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/
You have received what? Wow! Someone is nice to you on the internet and you claim it as a validation of your secret gospel.
Defeated angel of darkness
Defeated angel of darkness
Yes, your case appears hopeless but don't despair. Maybe God will be gracious enough to break you out of your willful delusions in which you are so slaphappily encased.
Yes, your case appears hopeless but don't despair. Maybe God will be gracious enough to break you out of your willful delusions in which you are so slaphappily encased.
Not I nor the readers nor God is '
slaphappily' accepting your yapping against his Word of Truth. You are hyper Seventh Day Adventist in every respect and nothing else or better. God is real and when He judges, shows no grace and has no mercy. PRESENT, SHOW, WRITE DOWN, HERE, my '
willful delusions'.
PRESENT, SHOW, WRITE DOWN, HERE, my 'willful delusions'.
Your secret gospel is hidden and is thus a willful delusion. The true gospel (http://everythingimportant.org/Millerites) is open and easily accessible.
Your secret gospel is hidden and is thus a willful delusion. The true gospel is open and easily accessible.
You've got good news for me? Then tell me my, '
secret gospel', please? You'll most probably tell me, my '
secret gospel' is my '
willful delusion'. So thank you, now I know I had a '
secret' and '
willful delusion', '
gospel'. Maybe informative but nothing interesting from a mammoth intellectual, and therefore, quite disappointing.
1Jn3: 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
Seems like this thread has turned into a I got ya one better.
1John 3: 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
The Law and this Christ's Commandment in particular has been given us that not one of us shall be righteous but everyone of us shall be a transgressor falling short in believing on the Name of God's Son Jesus Christ and in loving one another. God never commanded his children a harsher or more exacting Law. Some may think they keep the Sabbath Commandment, but no one can even think to get away with this New Commandment. But check it up, this, Jesus' New Commandment, is exactly identical the Commandment HE, GAVE, US, in the OT Law; it is only the Name of God I-AM which is here, "the Name of his - God's - Son Jesus Christ". You must love "the LORD GOD"--"his Son Jesus Christ" and "your neighbour"--"one another". It is the SAME LAW with which the OT people of God could not get away with, in other words, could not keep, while they might have thought they could keep the Ten Commandments plus all the other old Laws and even WITH OATH COVENANTED THAT THEY WOULD.
What are we, today, better than they? We are worse! So don't abuse Jesus' New Commandment for spiritual pride and self-righteousness! This "His Commandment", is the ultimate LAW which kills. NO Law of God's, saves! God's FORGIVENESS saves! God being the Law UNTO HIMSELF is what and Who, PERSONALLY, saves YOU. God is love; his Law is justice. No one is justified or redeemed or saved by the Law's works; but by God's works of love and grace.
You must love "the LORD GOD"--"his Son Jesus Christ" and "your neighbour"
I couldn't possibly be loving without pointing out that you are a fulfillment of prophecy:
After the truth has been proclaimed as a witness to all nations, every conceivable power of evil will be set in operation, and minds will be confused by many voices crying, "Lo, here is Christ, Lo, he is there. This is the truth, I have the message from God, he has sent me with great light (http://everythingimportant.org/SDA/viewtopic.php?t=165)." —Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, December 13, 1892. The message that Christ was resurrected on the Seventh-day of the week is just as relevant as the attempt to prove that Jesus Christ presented the Sermon on the Mount (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5-7&version=NIV) on a Tuesday.
The message that Christ was resurrected on the Seventh-day of the week is just as relevant as the attempt to prove that Jesus Christ presented the Sermon on the Mount on a Tuesday.
For you; not according to the Scriptures though.
No sermon of his could be greater than Jesus' SERMON which He Saviour God Lord and Christ by ACT according to the Scriptures, Promise and Prophetic Word of God, "by the EXCEEDING greatness of his Power which God WORKED, RAISING Christ from the dead", "SPOKE, THUS,
concerning The Seventh Day".
God through Jesus Christ through Resurrection from the dead IS IT WHO ATTACHES MEANING AND IMPORTANCE and EXCLUSIVITY TO "THE SEVENTH DAY SABBATH OF THE LORD GOD".
Your vain assumption that Jesus '
presented the Sermon on the Mount on a Tuesday', is as irrelevant as your Shubertian '
message' of a Sunday resurrection.
: Gerhard Ebersöhn Tue Nov 13, 2018 - 14:01:54
1John 3: 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
But check it up, this, Jesus' New Commandment, is exactly identical the Commandment HE, GAVE, US, in the OT Law;
Lets check your statement out and see if it is correct.
Jn 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another,
as I have loved you.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Please show us any command that equals Jesus command to us. How much does Jesus love us? Enough to lay down His life for us. Jesus asks us to lay down our lives for friends. Everyone should be our friends.
No sermon of his could be greater than Jesus' SERMON which He Saviour God Lord and Christ by ACT according to the Scriptures, Promise and Prophetic Word of God, "by the EXCEEDING greatness of his Power which God WORKED, RAISING Christ from the dead", "SPOKE, THUS, concerning The Seventh Day".
What ridiculous blasphemy, cobbling together disparate Scriptural phrases to sustain the fantasies of your own mind. Wouldn't you be better off confessing that you have no Scriptures proving that Christ was resurrected on the seventh day of the week?
Christ rested in the tomb on the Sabbath day, and when holy beings of both heaven and earth were astir on the morning of the first day of the week, He rose from the grave to renew His work of teaching His disciples. But this fact does not consecrate the first day of the week, and make it a Sabbath. {FLB 303.2}
Shubee:
What ridiculous blasphemy, cobbling together disparate Scriptural phrases to sustain the fantasies of your own mind. Wouldn't you be better off confessing that you have no Scriptures proving that Christ was resurrected on the seventh day of the week?
Christ rested in the tomb on the Sabbath day, and when holy beings of both heaven and earth were astir on the morning of the first day of the week, He rose from the grave to renew His work of teaching His disciples. But this fact does not consecrate the first day of the week, and make it a Sabbath. {FLB 303.2}
'
disparate Scriptural phrases...'? -- '...
the fantasies of your mind'!
'
Wouldn't (I) be better off confessing that (I) have no Scriptures proving that Christ was resurrected on the seventh day of the week?'
I couldn't for ALL the Scriptures proving that Christ would, and, was, resurrected on the Seventh Day of the week!
Or how would you say "rested God" if not by having raised Christ from the dead ON THE DAY OF GOD'S, REST?
Like you, E.G. White and SDA, say, '
Christ rested in the tomb on the Sabbath day' in and as '
the second death'
punishment for sinners' sin, and not as his "flesh rested IN HOPE", and, unlike in the '
second death', not "because it was impossible that He should be holden ... in the pains of death", but, according to you, because it was impossible He should NOT be holden by the pains of the godless in hell -- which is blasphemy if ever there has been blasphemy spoken by a human being.
You have no idea what Jesus' 'rest' in his grave was on the Sabbath Day; it was his abiding in the shadow of the Almighty "according to the Scriptures", and the beginning already of his exaltation under the Shekina Glory of God covering the Ark of the Testimony in the Most Holy Place of the Tabernacle and "PRESENCE OF I-AM THE LORD WITH YOU" even in death!
So rested God in Christ in the tomb on the Sabbath Day, BUT ULTIMATELY BY HAVING REVIVED AND RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.
You cannot comprehend any of it, you are proving. Yet God may cause faith to rise in your heart still, I would not know. But while you consider or rather reject the Scripture-Truth as '
ridiculous blasphemy' and '
cobbling together disparate Scriptural phrases to sustain the fantasies' of some reprehensible reprobate's '
mind', I don't think it's likely.
You have no idea what Jesus' 'rest' in his grave was on the Sabbath Day
I'm content being silent where Scripture is silent.
Shubee:
I'm content being silent where Scripture is silent.
Content you are, in laodicean contentedness. 'Where ignorance is bliss...'!
Be wise! RECONSIDER all you are content with, because that shall be your salvation.
And don't be led by 'inspiration'; inspiration works in arts, adoration and apathy; not in trial, test, or trust.
Fact is, Scripture is NOT 'silent' where it concerns God's Works-of-HIS-Sabbath's-Rest, his Great Deeds "on the Seventh Day",
"BLESSING the Seventh Day",
"FINISHING / COMPLETING / PERFECTING the Seventh Day",
"SANCTIFYING / HALLOWING / SETTING APART / EXCLUDING That Day the Seventh Day"
FOR WHAT?
For it having been and for it to be:
"That Day The Seventh Day Sabbath-REST-DAY OF THE LORD YOUR GOD"
through Jesus Christ,
in Jesus Christ,
by Jesus Christ,
for Jesus Christ
to be: "The Lord's Day", the Lord's Day
through Resurrection "on" it; the Lord's Day
in having been raised from the dead "in" it; the Lord's Day
by Resurrection from the dead "while being Sabbath's-time"; the Lord's Day
FOR TO RISE "the Sabbath was MADE" :
"the Lord's Day", "The Lordly Day of the Lord" "Sabbath OF THE LORD YOUR GOD".
Take away or stop before these Scripture truths had become realised, FULFILLED, history and TRUTH in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead "
ON THE SABBATH DAY mid-afternoon before the First Day of the week"
Matthew 28:1-4, and DEATH'S silence as if in the graves of the ungodly fall upon all "
The Scriptures", from Genesis to Revelation and the Last Trump of Christ's Coming.
Be wise! RECONSIDER all you are content with, because that shall be your salvation.
I regularly review The Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-day Millerites, Circa 2018 (http://everythingimportant.org/Millerites), which explains the joy of my salvation. I am especially content with the fullness of joy in the Spirit of truth.
Shubee:
I regularly review The Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-day Millerites, Circa 2018, which explains the joy of my salvation. I am especially content with the fullness of joy in the Spirit of truth.
... yet you stated before: Q~
Shubert's Date Line Existence Theorem has monumental consequences for everyone slavishly devoted to exalting Ellen G. White.~Q
What are you doing here and in '
The Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-day Millerites'?
... yet you stated before: Q~Shubert's Date Line Existence Theorem has monumental consequences for everyone slavishly devoted to exalting Ellen G. White.~Q
What are you doing here and in 'The Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-day Millerites'?
Don't you know? Truth is only for those who are willing to receive it.
Shubee:
Don't you know? Truth is only for those who are willing to receive it.
Yes no; that is the FUNDAMENTAL difference between Catholic, SDA and Shubertian, and Reformed Protestant Christian faith.
Gerhard, you forgot to answer my post #44. Scripture indicates the commands are different. Gerhard indicates they are the same. Will Gerhard fess up? ::juggle::
Beam:
Please show us any command that equals Jesus command to us. How much does Jesus love us? Enough to lay down His life for us. Jesus asks us to lay down our lives for friends. Everyone should be our friends.
Beam:
Gerhard, you forgot to answer my post #44. Scripture indicates the commands are different. Gerhard indicates they are the same. Will Gerhard fess up?
What does '
fess up' mean?
I answered you in this post,
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/proclaining-the-sabbath-more-fully-at-the-end-time/new/#new#41
Gerhard Ebersöhn
Re: Proclaiming the Sabbath more fully at the End Time Reply #41
1John 3: 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
The Law and this Christ's Commandment in particular has been given us that not one of us shall be righteous but everyone of us shall be a transgressor falling short in believing on the Name of God's Son Jesus Christ and in loving one another. God never commanded his children a harsher or more exacting Law. Some may think they keep the Sabbath Commandment, but no one can even think to get away with this New Commandment. But check it up, this, Jesus' New Commandment, is exactly identical the Commandment HE, GAVE, US, in the OT Law; it is only the Name of God I-AM which is here, "the Name of his - God's - Son Jesus Christ". You must love "the LORD GOD"--"his Son Jesus Christ" and "your neighbour"--"one another". It is the SAME LAW with which the OT people of God could not get away with, in other words, could not keep, while they might have thought they could keep the Ten Commandments plus all the other old Laws and even WITH OATH COVENANTED THAT THEY WOULD.
What are we, today, better than they? We are worse! So don't abuse Jesus' New Commandment for spiritual pride and self-righteousness! This "His Commandment", is the ultimate LAW which kills. NO Law of God's, saves! God's FORGIVENESS saves! God being the Law UNTO HIMSELF is what and Who, PERSONALLY, saves YOU. God is love; his Law is justice. No one is justified or redeemed or saved by the Law's works; but by God's works of love and grace.
: Gerhard Ebersöhn Fri Nov 16, 2018 - 15:01:13
What does 'fess up' mean?
I answered you in this post,
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/proclaining-the-sabbath-more-fully-at-the-end-time/new/#new#41
Gerhard Ebersöhn
Re: Proclaiming the Sabbath more fully at the End Time Reply #41
1John 3: 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
The Law and this Christ's Commandment in particular has been given us that not one of us shall be righteous but everyone of us shall be a transgressor falling short in believing on the Name of God's Son Jesus Christ and in loving one another. God never commanded his children a harsher or more exacting Law. Some may think they keep the Sabbath Commandment, but no one can even think to get away with this New Commandment. But check it up, this, Jesus' New Commandment, is exactly identical the Commandment HE, GAVE, US, in the OT Law; it is only the Name of God I-AM which is here, "the Name of his - God's - Son Jesus Christ". You must love "the LORD GOD"--"his Son Jesus Christ" and "your neighbour"--"one another". It is the SAME LAW with which the OT people of God could not get away with, in other words, could not keep, while they might have thought they could keep the Ten Commandments plus all the other old Laws and even WITH OATH COVENANTED THAT THEY WOULD.
What are we, today, better than they? We are worse! So don't abuse Jesus' New Commandment for spiritual pride and self-righteousness! This "His Commandment", is the ultimate LAW which kills. NO Law of God's, saves! God's FORGIVENESS saves! God being the Law UNTO HIMSELF is what and Who, PERSONALLY, saves YOU. God is love; his Law is justice. No one is justified or redeemed or saved by the Law's works; but by God's works of love and grace.
Sorry Gerhard the commandments are not the "exactly identical". If they were then Jesus was not truthful in telling us He was giving us a NEW COMMAND.
Fess is slang for confess. Confess that you made a mistake. We all do at times and the readers of your posts need to know the real truth.
Beam:
Sorry Gerhard the commandments are not the "exactly identical". If they were then Jesus was not truthful in telling us He was giving us a NEW COMMAND.
It's so easy for you to doubt Christ's trustworthiness but impossible you would doubt your own 'truthfulness'.
Jesus was and is the '
NEW COMMAND He was giving us'. The '
New Command given', being His own Self, like God, is new eternally. Which is why God's 'New Command' or "New Covenant" is the one and only ETERNAL LAW OF GOD'S COVENANTING by ETERNAL Council in FULL FELLOWSHIP of Father, Son, and, Holy Spirit, EXECUTED in time through Jesus Christ, so nullifying the vain and false 'old covenant' which man swore and unperturbed in all unfaithfulness KEEPS ON swearing.
: Gerhard Ebersöhn Sun Nov 18, 2018 - 02:05:36
It's so easy for you to doubt Christ's trustworthiness but impossible you would doubt your own 'truthfulness'.
Jesus was and is the 'NEW COMMAND He was giving us'. The 'New Command given', being His own Self, like God, is new eternally. Which is why God's 'New Command' or "New Covenant" is the one and only ETERNAL LAW OF GOD'S COVENANTING by ETERNAL Council in FULL FELLOWSHIP of Father, Son, and, Holy Spirit, EXECUTED in time through Jesus Christ, so nullifying the vain and false 'old covenant' which man swore and unperturbed in all unfaithfulness KEEPS ON swearing.
Sorry Gerhard, you make Christianity so hard by adding your own thoughts to the very simple plan of salvation. There is nothing in the now defunct old covenant or any other place in scripture that equals Jesus command in the new covenant. No place else does it ask anyone to give their lives for their fellow man.
The fact is you made an error and refuse to back down.
Sorry Gerhard the commandments are not the "exactly identical". If they were then Jesus was not truthful in telling us He was giving us a NEW COMMAND.
Again you readily and eager prefer to declare '
Jesus was not truthful in telling us He was giving us a NEW COMMAND ... if the commandments" were exactly identical--which they are! You rather doubt Jesus' character than let go of your miserable idea God's Covenant is not 'New' in the sense that it existed 'BC' in Eternal New Covenant of His Grace. Jesus gave no 'new covenant' that not forever, had been good for his elect. He gave his worshippers His Eternal, New Covenant He had sworn before He created the world. God's Covenant is ever New because God is ever New--not because it is a new set of laws for sinners which they ostensibly are able to perform.
: Gerhard Ebersöhn Sun Nov 25, 2018 - 12:28:24
Again you readily and eager prefer to declare 'Jesus was not truthful in telling us He was giving us a NEW COMMAND ... if the commandments" were exactly identical--which they are! You rather doubt Jesus' character than let go of your miserable idea God's Covenant is not 'New' in the sense that it existed 'BC' in Eternal New Covenant of His Grace. Jesus gave no 'new covenant' that not forever, had been good for his elect. He gave his worshippers His Eternal, New Covenant He had sworn before He created the world. God's Covenant is ever New because God is ever New--not because it is a new set of laws for sinners which they ostensibly are able to perform.
If the new covenant is not new then why would the writer of Hebrews tell us the covenant Jesus gave us at Calvary is a new and better covenant? 6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.Please show us from the Old Testament anyplace it tells us that we are to love others as Jesus loves us.
Beam:
If the new covenant is not new then why would the writer of Hebrews tell us the covenant Jesus gave us at Calvary is a new and better covenant?
You simply are begging the question. The New Covenant is new because Jesus is The Eternal eternally New and Better Covenant of God's Eternal Plan of Salvation by grace alone. The New Covenant is New because Jesus fulfilled it and "is The All in all fulfilling FULLNESS OF GOD" of it.
How old are you, because there is something of youth's characteristic attributes about you?
Beam:
Please show us from the Old Testament anyplace it tells us that we are to love others as Jesus loves us.
So this is what you have been up to all the time. If you think Jesus is not God's Eternal WORD who "in the beginning already eternally was, was with God, and was in fact, GOD", I have nothing further to discuss with you.
Please don't waste my time, it's not civil but God-dishonouring--I mean your whole conversation.
Saturday worship is NOT the endtime message.
SDA's have no idea what the "endtime message" really is or is really all about.
CO2:
Saturday worship is NOT the endtime message.
SDA's have no idea what the "endtime message" really is or is really all about.
My last post was #61; your post is #62. Therefore, are you addressing me? I am not SDA and I do not believe '
Saturday worship is the endtime message'.
The end-time "message" of the entire Bible is the "preaching" of "the ETERNAL Gospel" of "Jesus Christ for it is the Power of God unto Salvation". NO BUTS!
: Gerhard Ebersöhn Sun Dec 02, 2018 - 23:09:15
My last post was #61; your post is #62. Therefore, are you addressing me? I am not SDA and I do not believe 'Saturday worship is the endtime message'.
The end-time "message" of the entire Bible is the "preaching" of "the ETERNAL Gospel" of "Jesus Christ for it is the Power of God unto Salvation". NO BUTS!
That is nice to know.
NOW if you would please tell us what "the ETERNAL Gospel of Jesus Christ" actually is then we will know if you are of the Truth.
C02:
That is nice to know.
NOW if you would please tell us what "the ETERNAL Gospel of Jesus Christ" actually is then we will know if you are of the Truth.
Forget about me, whether I am "'of the Truth'" or not; the Apostolic Confession explains well enough what Christian Believers believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ means. It's good enough also for me. Paul sums it up in one sentence: "The Gospel of Christ is the POWER OF GOD TO SAVE (sinners like me) for therein is The Righteousness of God--Jesus Christ--revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of MEN."
A 'gospel of Christ' that isn't "
against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of MEN" is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ but the FAKE gospel of the devil, viz., the FAKE law of "'all is love'" and nothing is sin aka "'love is all'" and sin is nothing.
: Gerhard Ebersöhn Sat Dec 01, 2018 - 13:42:09
So this is what you have been up to all the time. If you think Jesus is not God's Eternal WORD who "in the beginning already eternally was, was with God, and was in fact, GOD", I have nothing further to discuss with you.
Please don't waste my time, it's not civil but God-dishonouring--I mean your whole conversation.
Forget who a am and how old I am and what I believe, just answer the question Where in the OLd Testament does Jesus tell anyone to love others as I have loved you. The fact is that you cannot and writing that Jesus love command is the same as the love command in the Old Testament is not true. Jesus did give us a new commandment. You were wrong and now you are completely avoiding the issue by insinuating, with your "IF" I don't believe Jesus was God eternally. Then you go on with a threat which with 50 cents might get you a cup of coffee.
Be very careful when you spread falsehood, Someone unknowing person might just believe it and I might not be here to set you straight.
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another;
as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Jesus loves us so much He laid down His life for all mankind. Do you realize that He asks us to do the same for others? Find a command in the Old Testament that equals that.
Where in the OLd Testament does Jesus tell anyone to love others as I have loved you.
Most imbecilic 'question'; no, unimaginable most Christ-insulting 'question'! I would a thousand times be a SDA rather than a Beamist.
Beam:
Forget who a am and how old I am and what I believe, just answer the question Where in the OLd Testament does Jesus tell anyone to love others as I have loved you. The fact is that you cannot and writing that Jesus love command is the same as the love command in the Old Testament is not true. Jesus did give us a new commandment. You were wrong and now you are completely avoiding the issue by insinuating, with your "IF" I don't believe Jesus was God eternally. Then you go on with a threat which with 50 cents might get you a cup of coffee.
Be very careful when you spread falsehood, Someone unknowing person might just believe it and I might not be here to set you straight.
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Jesus loves us so much He laid down His life for all mankind. Do you realize that He asks us to do the same for others? Find a command in the Old Testament that equals that.
"He taketh the wise in their own craftiness : and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong."
You make me so happy, I almost feel proud of myself, that I don't succumb to the wicked desires which you awaken within me. Wyk satan!
Jesus : The Same yesterday today and tomorrow, The Beginning of the creation of God : The Omega."
Jesus gave no command or commandment once, ever, other than for the reason that man is as he ever was and ever will be, the TRANSGRESSOR of God's Law and HATER of his Word--even of the principle of Divine Law or Commandment. Every Commandment of Jesus makes us the worst of sinners. Not Jesus' noblest Law makes anyone any better and no Command of Christ expects better than that which only can be expected from both man and Commandment: no improvement, nothing "'
better'", but worse, man's sin according to the Commandment.
"God is One", the Almighty is "THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS!" "There is no salvation in any other; there is no other Name* under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved." None are saved by Law or obedience to Law or works of Law. The Law-Giver is the only Forgiver of only Law-breakers.
*Be it the name of the 'New Commandment'
: Gerhard Ebersöhn Mon Dec 03, 2018 - 15:38:38
Most imbecilic 'question'; no, unimaginable most Christ-insulting 'question'! I would a thousand times be a SDA rather than a Beamist.
Since there is no such thing as a "Beamist", we would rather you were a Christian than an SDA or what ever else you might identify as.
CO2:
Since there is no such thing as a "Beamist", we would rather you were a Christian than an SDA or what ever else you might identify as.
There has been no such thing as a Beamist until there came Mr Beam and associate Mr CO2 of gracecentred forum fame. And if I said Beam is a Beamist, a Beamist he is!
: Gerhard Ebersöhn Mon Dec 03, 2018 - 22:40:12
There has been no such thing as a Beamist until there came Mr Beam and associate Mr CO2 of gracecentred forum fame. And if I said Beam is a Beamist, a Beamist he is!
That makes sense since it is coming from another David-Michael Koresh/Trevaser wannabe......
: current occupant2 Tue Dec 04, 2018 - 00:26:31
That makes sense since it is coming from another David-Michael Koresh/Trevaser wannabe......
Hi co2, all we can do is consider the source and pray for them. As long as those who oppose us are not breaking our fingers so that we cannot hit the keys with the real truth, anything that they may write is just like water running off a duck's back.
I don't mean to judge, since I am only an inspector of their fruits, but is seems like they have not taken Jesus greatest command to love others seriously.
Beam:
Hi co2, all we can do is consider the source and pray for them. As long as those who oppose us are not breaking our fingers so that we cannot hit the keys with the real truth, anything that they may write is just like water running off a duck's back.
I don't mean to judge, since I am only an inspector of their fruits, but is seems like they have not taken Jesus greatest command to love others seriously.
Inspector? Inspekteur se gat my maat! I'll chase you off my site with this pick handle I dug this hole, see? Better start running now before I break your skull, duck!
"At the commencement of the time of trouble, we were filled with the Holy Ghost as we went forth and proclaimed the Sabbath more fully." {LDE 143.1}
Is this going to be fulfilled by the pro-abortion Seventh-day Adventist church (http://everythingimportant.org/Laodicea/) or by the Seventh-day Millerites (http://everythingimportant.org/Millerites)?
if I said Beam is a Beamist, a Beamist he is!
What is a Beamist?
A Beamist is a wire-fence sitter.
: Shubee Fri Dec 07, 2018 - 10:35:07
Is this going to be fulfilled by the pro-abortion Seventh-day Adventist church (http://everythingimportant.org/Laodicea/) or by the Seventh-day Millerites (http://everythingimportant.org/Millerites)?
Since both groups are proclaiming a day - neither group will fulfill the false prophets statement.
"At the commencement of the time of trouble, we were filled with the Holy Ghost as we went forth and proclaimed the Sabbath more fully." {LDE 143.1}
That's a pathetic lie. At the commencement of the time of Increase in Knowledge, late 19th century, the SDA "'
went forth and proclaimed the Sabbath'" WITHOUT SUBSTANCE, viz., WITHOUT CHRIST RAISED FROM THE DEAD "ON THE SABBATH".
It's almost TWO CENTURIES now, and STILL the SDA elevate their Christ-less and therefore Lawless Sabbath even above Him in his Resurrection Exaltation and Ascension "at the Right Hand on the Throne of God His Heavenly Majesty", "the day The Seventh Day God from all his works, RESTED".
Since both groups are proclaiming a day - neither group will fulfill the false prophets statement.
Seventh-day Millerites don't proclaim a day. We teach the true meaning of the Seventh-day Sabbath and explain its connection to the third angel's message. You're already on record opposing the message of the third angel. The reason is clear. The three angels proclaim the gospel of God the Father.
: Shubee Fri Dec 07, 2018 - 11:12:25
Seventh-day Millerites don't proclaim a day. We teach the true meaning of the Seventh-day Sabbath and explain its connection to the third angel's message. You're already on record opposing the message of the third angel. The reason is clear. The three angels proclaim the gospel of God the Father.
No, I just oppose your pathetic attempts at resurrecting David Koresh and replacing Michael Trevaser while he is in jail for child molestations.
Shubee:
We teach the true meaning of the Seventh-day Sabbath and explain its connection to the third angel's message. You're already on record opposing the message of the third angel. The reason is clear. The three angels proclaim the gospel of God the Father.
The first angel / message / Gospel of Christ proclaimers of Revelation 14 was/were those resurrected just after Jesus Matthew 27:52,53 Revelation 14:1-5.
The second angel / message / Gospel of Christ proclaimers of Revelation 14 was/were the first century Apostolic Church. Revelation 14:6,7
The third angel / message / Gospel of Christ proclaimers of Revelation 14 was/were the Reformation Protestants. Revelation 14:8,9.
I just oppose your pathetic attempts at resurrecting David Koresh and replacing Michael Trevaser while he is in jail for child molestations
.
AIPAC is terribly disappointed at your poor choice of Jesuit tactics (http://everythingimportant.org/Jesuits/) in trying to oppose the third angel's message (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/observations-on-two-contending-mission-statements/). They want you to try harder.
The first angel / message / Gospel of Christ proclaimers of Revelation 14 was/were those resurrected just after Jesus Matthew 27:52,53 Revelation 14:1-5.
The second angel / message / Gospel of Christ proclaimers of Revelation 14 was/were the first century Apostolic Church. Revelation 14:6,7
The third angel / message / Gospel of Christ proclaimers of Revelation 14 was/were the Reformation Protestants. Revelation 14:8,9.
Sorry. The church of Gerhard Ebersöhn isn't recognized anywhere and therefore couldn't possibly be credible. Does your church have a website?
The Babylonian church of Ebersöhn and Shubee IS not recognized by any credible organization. Only the organizational roots of David Koresh and Michael Trevaser recognize your Babylonian empire.
Heaven is organized, as is the State of Texas, which are credible. Furthermore, everyone recognizes that CO2 is a pollutant.
Only the organizational roots of David Koresh and Michael Trevaser recognize your Babylonian empire.
AIPAC is going to take you off of their Xmas list because of your inadequate implementation of their official protocol, i.e., Jesuit tactics (http://everythingimportant.org/Jesuits/). Also, don't expect any invitations this year to the AIPAC Xmas party because of your outrageous clumsiness (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/observations-on-two-contending-mission-statements/) in pretending to answer the third angel's message.
: Shubee Fri Dec 07, 2018 - 17:13:06
Heaven is organized, as is the State of Texas, which are credible. Furthermore, everyone recognizes that CO2 is a pollutant.
Actually, an educated person would know that co2 is a necessary ingredient in feeding the world and making it possible for us to live on this planet.
You must be one of the ones seeking to outlaw Di-hydrogen monoxide as a dangerous chemical because it causes so many deaths every year....
You must be one of the ones seeking to outlaw Di-hydrogen monoxide as a dangerous chemical because it causes so many deaths every year.
I'm already very aware of the fraud behind climate alarmism (http://everythingimportant.org/climategate/). Thank you!
CO2 is free to deny being a pollutant all he likes, which matches his great joy in shilling for AIPAC.
: Shubee Fri Dec 07, 2018 - 23:53:35
CO2 is free to deny being a pollutant all he likes, which matches his great joy in shilling for AIPAC.
Actually, an educated person would know that co2 is a necessary ingredient in feeding the world and making it possible for us to live on this planet.
You must be one of the ones seeking to outlaw Di-hydrogen monoxide as a dangerous chemical because it causes so many deaths every year...
Sorry. The church of Gerhard Ebersöhn isn't recognized anywhere and therefore couldn't possibly be credible. Does your church have a website?
So this is Shubee's reply to Revelation's 'three angels' message(s)'. Noted down.
Getting back to the OP the writer, Hobie, quotes the supposed prophet of the SDAs and her comments like the following one seem urgent as she writes "very soon".
A great crisis awaits the people of God. Very soon our nation will attempt to enforce upon all the observance of the first day of the week as a sacred day. In doing this they will not scruple to compel men against the voice of their own conscience to observe the day the nation declares to be the Sabbath.—The Review and Herald Extra, December 11, 1888. {LDE 144.2}
The law of God, through the agency of Satan, is to be made void. In our land of boasted freedom religious liberty will come to an end. The contest will be decided over the Sabbath question, which will agitate the whole world.—Evangelism, 236 (1875). {LDE 144.1}
Well, 130 years have past and guess what, we still have religious liberty on the United States. The supposed prophet also wrote that the Sunday laws would soon be upon our nation. It would seem like anyone who ever had faith in Ellen would have given up by now, Her many predictions are long forgotten and millions have gone to their graves with their Christian blessings still being pronounced for them. Sunday laws have long been forgotten rules in our nation. We are free to work, gather and express our beliefs as we please. Adventism, for the most part, has become an accepted belief system and Adventists hold high positions in our government and in all kinds of healthcare and industrial institutions. The Adventist health care system is one of the largest in the nation and one of the top medial centers in the world is connected to the church.
Isn't it about time Adventists look at the predictions Ellen made and decide, like the rest of us have found, out, she was a fraud.
We have no idea what will happen in the future for our nation. Millions of predictions have been made based on past and current happenings. I will trust in Jesus no matter what may happen and I will not spend time worrying about things we have no control over. It is too bad that Adventists cannot do the same. They have put their trust in proven falsehood.
So this is Shubee's reply to Revelation's 'three angels' message(s)'.
No. I replied to the opinion of a church of 1.
"At the commencement of the time of trouble, we were filled with the Holy Ghost as we went forth and proclaimed the Sabbath more fully." {LDE 143.1}
This prophecy can't possibly be fulfilled by a church of one or by the pro-abortion Seventh-day Adventist church (http://everythingimportant.org/Laodicea/).
: Shubee Sat Dec 08, 2018 - 08:30:28
This prophecy can't possibly be fulfilled by a church of one or by the pro-abortion Seventh-day Adventist church (http://everythingimportant.org/Laodicea/).
That was not Ellen's prediction. She indicated that if one does not become a SDA upholding all she prophesied all would be lost. All other churches are Babylon and if a member of any of those churches we would not be saved. Only the SDA church is the "remnant".
You believe in Ellen as the prophet for the end time and yet disassociate yourself from that remnant. How do you justify your position?
You believe in Ellen as the prophet for the end time and yet disassociate yourself from that remnant. How do you justify your position?
There will be a remnant church in the future and that church will be very Adventist. I have never denied that.
She indicated that if one does not become a SDA upholding all she prophesied all would be lost. All other churches are Babylon and if a member of any of those churches we would not be saved.
You are terribly confused and don't understand what Sister White wrote.
We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted, and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird; and will we be clear unless we make decided movements to cure the existing evil? {TSB 188.3}
: Shubee Sat Dec 08, 2018 - 09:00:56
You are terribly confused and don't understand what Sister White wrote.
We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted, and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird; and will we be clear unless we make decided movements to cure the existing evil? {TSB 188.3}
I saw that God has honest children among the nominal Adventists and the fallen churches, and before the plagues shall be poured out, ministers and people will be called out from these churches and will gladly receive the truth. Satan knows this; and before the loud cry of the third angel is given, he raises an excitement in these religious bodies, that those who have rejected the truth may think that God is with them. He hopes to deceive the honest and lead them to think that God is still working for the churches. But the light will shine, and all who are honest will leave the fallen churches, and take their stand with the remnant. {EW 261.1}
So Shubee, it appears that you must, in the future, join the "remnant" (SDA church) in order to be among those that are saved. You certainly are not helping the cause by denying the SDA church and by excusing yourself you are not helping to further the "true??" remnant. It would seem to me since Ellen indicated that the SDA church is the remnant that you would want to further that cause.
Sister White wrote:
I saw that God has honest children among the nominal Adventists and the fallen churches,
Therefore, beam misrepresented Sister White.
I saw that God has honest children among the nominal Adventists and the fallen churches, and before the plagues shall be poured out, ministers and people will be called out from these churches and will gladly receive the truth. Satan knows this; and before the loud cry of the third angel is given, he raises an excitement in these religious bodies, that those who have rejected the truth may think that God is with them. He hopes to deceive the honest and lead them to think that God is still working for the churches. But the light will shine, and all who are honest will leave the fallen churches, and take their stand with the remnant. {EW 261.1}
So Shubee, it appears that you must, in the future, join the "remnant" (SDA church) in order to be among those that are saved. You certainly are not helping the cause by denying the SDA church and by excusing yourself you are not helping to further the "true??" remnant. It would seem to me since Ellen indicated that the SDA church is the remnant that you would want to further that cause.
Beam, you need to take a reading course.
Those Christians who are already saved will unite at the endtime. Article 9 of The Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-day Adventists, Circa 2023 (http://everythingimportant.org/Adventists) affirms:
The body of Christ will be united, enlightened and perfected through truth just before the Second Coming of Christ.
bye
: Charles Martel Sat Dec 08, 2018 - 11:11:54
The Sabbath has been a controversy forever. It's more of a Judaic custom or an observance between God and Israel than a NT teaching. New Testament The law was . An Israelite could not leave their home, build a fire, or cause anyone to work. If you did any of those things you were to be put to death. You are mistaking if you think that applies to NT Christians. There's no obligation for New Testament believers to observe a Saturday or Sunday Sabbath.
"One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord"
Paul said, "For if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
He also said, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread,
Paul again, "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. KJV Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Believers are not under the Old Testament Law (Romans 6:14; Galatians 3:24-25; 2 Corinthians 3:7, 11, 13; Hebrews 7:12). Jesus resurrected on the first day of the week, and Pentecost likely occurred on Sunday. It has no bearing on a person's salvation. As long as we all honor a day of rest we are doing the right thing.
Paul preached unto them...
1 Cor. 16:1-2 Now about the collection for God's people...On the FIRST day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income...
Saturday doesn't need to be the Sabbath any more than we need to adhere to any other part of Judaic law like killing people for NOT observing the sabbath or food restrictions etc.
Didn't Jesus say that if we have lost a sheep or a coin we should look for it even on the sabbath? Jesus observed the Sabbath because he was Jewish.
Colossians 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
The Jewish Sabbath ended at the cross when Christ annulled the "written code." Historically, Sunday was the normal meeting day for Christians in the church, and its practice dates back to the first century.
A bunch of the same rubbish presented and addressed over and over again already on this and several other threads. God's Sabbath was instituted at creation 2000 years before a Jew ever existed, before sin existed for perfect people, was pronounced a blessing upon all who would keep it including non jews during the old covenant, was kept by Jesus who taught it's proper observance, has always been kept by many Christians, and is prophesied in scripture to be kept in the new heaven and new earth. You should stop twisting and mutilating the writings of the apostle Paul to your own selfish ends, and trying to make scripture imply Sunday sacredness which it absolutely does not. Nevertheless, you are of course free to do as you choose. Just as those who choose to keep God's Sabbath do as well.
CMartel
The Sabbath has been a controversy forever. It's more of a Judaic custom or an observance between God and Israel than a NT teaching. New Testament The law was . An Israelite could not leave their home, build a fire, or cause anyone to work. If you did any of those things you were to be put to death. You are mistaking if you think that applies to NT Christians. There's no obligation for New Testament believers to observe a Saturday or Sunday Sabbath.
"One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord"
Paul said, "For if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
He also said, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread,
Paul again, "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. KJV Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Believers are not under the Old Testament Law (Romans 6:14; Galatians 3:24-25; 2 Corinthians 3:7, 11, 13; Hebrews 7:12). Jesus resurrected on the first day of the week, and Pentecost likely occurred on Sunday. It has no bearing on a person's salvation. As long as we all honor a day of rest we are doing the right thing.
Paul preached unto them...
1 Cor. 16:1-2 Now about the collection for God's people...On the FIRST day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income...
Saturday doesn't need to be the Sabbath any more than we need to adhere to any other part of Judaic law like killing people for NOT observing the sabbath or food restrictions etc.
Didn't Jesus say that if we have lost a sheep or a coin we should look for it even on the sabbath? Jesus observed the Sabbath because he was Jewish.
Colossians 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
The Jewish Sabbath ended at the cross when Christ annulled the "written code." Historically, Sunday was the normal meeting day for Christians in the church, and its practice dates back to the first century.
The 7th billionth collection, copying and recycling of Sunday worshippers' very best. No iota or comma improved, just stale flat empty boring unoriginality.
But I'll in any case dissect you piece by piece for what it will be worth. . .nothing! I know.
bye
Martel:
The word Sabbath is first found in Exodus. The word 'rest' in Genesis simply means to keep as a day of rest.
Martel:
The Jewish Sabbath ended at the cross when Christ annulled the "written code."
So, for Martel, the fact the word "Sabbath" is found in the Bible means it's not "'
for New Testament believers'"; it's "'
annulled'".
And so, for Martel, the fact the word, "the _Jewish_ Sabbath" is not found in the Bible means Sunday worship is for NT believers.
Martel should go for politicking!
God's Sabbath was instituted at creation 2000 years before a Jew ever existed, before sin existed for perfect people
,
And after that, the Seventh-day Adventist church has sanctified abortion (http://everythingimportant.org/Laodicea/) and has been persecuting those who express dissent.
Matthew 7:5
You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
bye
So does your church adhere to the law and kill people who don't observe the Sabbath?
At Seventh-day Adventist abortion centers, the Sabbath is a special day to abort babies.
I rest on Saturday as I do every day. That does not mean I stop doing anything for 24 hours. God never did give a decree for anyone to stop doing anything on the seventh-day until after the Red Sea crossing. To try to say anything different would be a misnomer.
Beam:
I rest on Saturday as I do every day. That does not mean I stop doing anything for 24 hours. God never did give a decree for anyone to stop doing anything on the seventh-day until after the Red Sea crossing. To try to say anything different would be a misnomer.
Who could possibly be interested in any of this nothing better or worse than your own feelings and wishes after personal fame? WHO CARES WHAT "'
I do every day'" or no day?
But I care the moment you talk nonsense and lies about what God did or "'
never did'" ... and then try sound learned with absolute linguistic '"
misnomer'" rubbish...
: Gerhard Ebersöhn Tue Dec 11, 2018 - 00:04:10
Who could possibly be interested in any of this nothing better or worse than your own feelings and wishes after personal fame? WHO CARES WHAT "'I do every day'" or no day?
But I care the moment you talk nonsense and lies about what God did or "'never did'" ... and then try sound learned with absolute linguistic '"misnomer'" rubbish...
Sorry that I caused you to write such a bitter post. How is this working in your everyday life Gerhard?
: beam Mon Dec 10, 2018 - 14:31:30
I rest on Saturday as I do every day. That does not mean I stop doing anything for 24 hours. God never did give a decree for anyone to stop doing anything on the seventh-day until after the Red Sea crossing. To try to say anything different would be a misnomer.
God established seventh day rest at creation. He blessed and sanctified the day. No one but God can ever change that.
Gen 26:2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: 3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice,
and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.Do you know what the commandments, statutes, and laws of God which Abraham kept are? Of course not, scripture does not record this. You cannot say that Sabbath observance was not one of them, just as we cannot say it certainly was. We can say that the seventh day Sabbath was established by God at creation, and therefore was likely kept by one God said kept His commandments, statutes, and laws.
Regardless, God came down to His people and verbally commanded them to observe His Sabbath, then wrote the same command for them twice with His own hand. If you do not want to do what God has commanded His people to do, you are of course at liberty to disregard the same. God's followers seek to keep His commands by faith, not force. We leave this to the Sunday sacredness proponents who have, do, and will continue to force their day of rest upon all.
: Amo Sat Dec 15, 2018 - 11:18:08
God established seventh day rest at creation. He blessed and sanctified the day. No one but God can ever change that.
The event blessed by God had no evening nor morning. READ Genesis 2!!
: Amo Sat Dec 15, 2018 - 11:18:08
Gen 26:2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: 3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Do you know what the commandments, statutes, and laws of God which Abraham kept are? Of course not, scripture does not record this. You cannot say that Sabbath observance was not one of them, just as we cannot say it certainly was. We can say that the seventh day Sabbath was established by God at creation, and therefore was likely kept by one God said kept His commandments, statutes, and laws.
Regardless, God came down to His people and verbally commanded them to observe His Sabbath, then wrote the same command for them twice with His own hand. If you do not want to do what God has commanded His people to do, you are of course at liberty to disregard the same. God's followers seek to keep His commands by faith, not force. We leave this to the Sunday sacredness proponents who have, do, and will continue to force their day of rest upon all.
The "charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws" kept by Abraham are fully specified in the book of Genesis as the faithfulness of Abraham is revealed.
While there are several other commands issued by God in the book of Genesis, There is no command nor is there any example of any human keeping the 7th day as a "sabbath" in the book of Genesis.
CO2
The event blessed by God had no evening nor morning. READ Genesis 2!!
Nonsense.
Every "day" in the first 3 chapters of Genesis is marked at "evening"-beginning and "morning-" or "daylight"-ending, the very "'
event'" of each day here, with your remark by yourself confirmed, "'
The event blessed by God --of each day--
had (an)
evening (and)
morning.'"
Three times in 2:2,3 is the "Seventh Day" called "The Seventh Day" in sequential reference and with consistent relevancy to its SIX fore-going "DAYS".
Why should "the Seventh Day" not have had its own
evening and
morning?
Because, according to your shallow and predisposed reading of Genesis it is written that "'
the event'" of "the Seventh Day" "'
had no evening nor morning'"!
But it IS NOT WRITTEN that "'
the event'" of "the Seventh Day" "'
had no evening nor morning'"! You're simply lying.
Fact is, it IS WRITTEN, and written in Genesis, that "'
the event'" of "the Seventh Day" had an evening as well as morning!
Anyone with any savvy reading the 2nd and 3rd chapters sees that he is reading a summary and follow-up of Genesis 1:1 to 2:1 in 2:2 to 3:24. Days 1 to 5 are summarised in 2:4-6; then the Sixth Day's "'
event'" is more fully described in 2:7-3:7 until just before where in verse 8
"IN THE EVENING COOL OF THE DAY they (Adam and Eve)
HEARD THE VOICE (Christ The Word) OF THE LORD GOD"
when "the Seventh Day", "
the-to-hear-the-Word-of-God-Sabbath-Day" (Act 13:44) had had begun.
And when it was morning THAT SELFSAME DAY OF ESSENCE THE LORD'S DAY,
"the LORD GOD sent man FORTH from the garden of Eden and DROVE him OUT and placed at the EAST (where the morning just broke), cherubims and a flaming sword."
: Amo Sat Dec 15, 2018 - 11:18:08
God established seventh day rest at creation. He blessed and sanctified the day.
The account does not tell us God established the seventh day rest at creation. It only tells us He blessed that one day. Any other reasoning is just pure speculation
No one but God can ever change that.
Why would God ever even want to change the fact that He blessed and rested on the day after creation.
Gen 26:2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: 3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Do you know what the commandments, statutes, and laws of God which Abraham kept are? Of course not, scripture does not record this. You cannot say that Sabbath observance was not one of them, just as we cannot say it certainly was. We can say that the seventh day Sabbath was established by God at creation, and therefore was likely kept by one God said kept His commandments, statutes, and laws.
Regardless, God came down to His people and verbally commanded them to observe His Sabbath, then wrote the same command for them twice with His own hand. If you do not want to do what God has commanded His people to do, you are of course at liberty to disregard the same. God's followers seek to keep His commands by faith, not force. We leave this to the Sunday sacredness proponents who have, do, and will continue to force their day of rest upon all.
Quite a bit of truth in your quote. You are right on when you wrote "His people". His people were the nation of Israel. No where did He ever ask or command any other nation or people to observe the day set aside for his chosen, Israel.
As to your statement about Sunday sacredness proponents you will have to address those who regard Sunday as a holy day, I certainly do not and most of the people I know feel the same. And who is forcing you to worship on Sunday or refraining you to do anything??? You have allowed yourself to believe a false prophet and a false belief system that has you bound. God has told me, through the Holy Spirit's guidance in understanding scripture, that mankind is no longer under the ministry of death, the 10 commandments. They were Israel's guide and according to 2Cor3:7-11 were replaced by the Holy Spirit. If you cannot see the light God has given all mankind then yes you are bound to Ellen White and her belief system and have surely been duped.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones,
was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory
was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which
is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
Beam:
The account does not tell us God established the seventh day rest at creation. It only tells us He blessed that one day. Any other reasoning is just pure speculation
Says Beam, "'
The account does not tell us God established the seventh day rest at creation.'" Is it written: "God thus concerning the Seventh DAY spake: And God That DAY The Seventh DAY, from all his works: RESTED." One here saying or speaking, one here reasoning or speculating, IS A FOOL:
God, or, Beam!
Beam:
The account does not tell us God established the seventh day rest at creation. It only tells us He blessed that one day. Any other reasoning is just pure speculation
.....
Beam:
Why would God ever even want to change the fact that He blessed and rested on the day after creation.
It is clear who is the FOOL here!
Beam:
No where did He ever ask or command any other nation or people to observe the day set aside for his chosen, Israel.
How absolutely clear and true! No wonder you don't see the clarity and truth of the Sabbath OF THE LORD ... YOUR (o Israel) ... GOD!"
Beam:
You have allowed yourself to believe a false prophet and a false belief system that has you bound. God has told me, through the Holy Spirit's guidance in understanding scripture, that mankind is no longer under the ministry of death, the 10 commandments. They were Israel's guide and according to 2Cor3:7-11 were replaced by the Holy Spirit. If you cannot see the light God has given all mankind then yes you are bound to Ellen White and her belief system and have surely been duped.
The false spirit is your, Beam's, spirit, which you, blaspheming, claim is God's Holy Spirit. Notice the ever-present accompanying lies and errors.
: beam Wed Dec 19, 2018 - 08:23:01
The account does not tell us God established the seventh day rest at creation. It only tells us He blessed that one day. Any other reasoning is just pure speculation
Why would God ever even want to change the fact that He blessed and rested on the day after creation.
Quite a bit of truth in your quote. You are right on when you wrote "His people". His people were the nation of Israel. No where did He ever ask or command any other nation or people to observe the day set aside for his chosen, Israel.
As to your statement about Sunday sacredness proponents you will have to address those who regard Sunday as a holy day, I certainly do not and most of the people I know feel the same. And who is forcing you to worship on Sunday or refraining you to do anything??? You have allowed yourself to believe a false prophet and a false belief system that has you bound. God has told me, through the Holy Spirit's guidance in understanding scripture, that mankind is no longer under the ministry of death, the 10 commandments. They were Israel's guide and according to 2Cor3:7-11 were replaced by the Holy Spirit. If you cannot see the light God has given all mankind then yes you are bound to Ellen White and her belief system and have surely been duped.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
You are in denial my friend. God blessed and sanctified the seventh day at creation, it has been blessed and sanctified ever since. Thus the command to remember the Sabbath, not to make a Sabbath. Making the Sabbath already took place at creation 2000 years before there ever was a Jew or sin.
Nor are there any children of God outside of the Israel of God. If you have not been graft into the vine, then you are separate from it, which is a lost condition. Are you a child of Abraham by faith or not? Are you a fellow citizen of the Saints or not? All Israel will be saved. Have you become one with God's chosen people or not? Jesus Christ did not make two new men, He made one new man. Is Jesus Christ the King and Messiah of the Jews your Lord and Savior or not? Please reconsider, and depart from the tenets of the false gospel of two new men, and two new nations of God in this new covenant era. One of those men and nations is lost.
Sunday sacredness is and has been forced upon countless people since the days of Constantine through human legislation. There are restriction concerning various things on Sundays right now in my state. New Sunday laws have been popping back up in Europe and other places in the last few decades, and many including the church of Rome of course continue to preach and pursue a course of action intended to make these laws universal. These are the plain simple facts, facts which you apparently deny and continue to deny even though they are being played out for all to see. Go to the thread Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism, where there is the ongoing evidence of the above presented in detail. Start at the beginning, and read and deny as your wish and do.
Amo:
Sunday sacredness is and has been forced upon countless people since the days of Constantine through human legislation. There are restriction concerning various things on Sundays right now in my state. New Sunday laws have been popping back up in Europe and other places in the last few decades, and many including the church of Rome of course continue to preach and pursue a course of action intended to make these laws universal. These are the plain simple facts, facts which you apparently deny and continue to deny even though they are being played out for all to see. Go to the thread Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism, where there is the ongoing evidence of the above presented in detail. Start at the beginning, and read and deny as your wish and do.
Sunday sacredness has been and is forced upon every single Christian through human manipulation and corruption of the Text since the break in the twentieth century of the day of the 'New Translations' of Scripture. Doctored editions and versions of the Bible, especially of the NT, have been popping up 'new', and have become the norm and standard in Europe as all over the world in the last few decades, and many - foremost the church of Rome - preach and pursue a course of action intended to make these fraudulent corruptions, universal and permanent.
THESE are the plain and simple facts, facts which you at all cost deny even though they are being played out for all to see and READ,
right in their Bibles. Go to the Scriptures and start to read anywhere, and see if you have the courage to deal with the doings of these criminals calling themselves by the Name of Christ, because it is not a nice discovery begging to be made by an honest believer.
: Amo Thu Dec 20, 2018 - 07:45:17
You are in denial my friend.
If I am in denial then please explain why God never gave the Sabbath to gentiles.
God blessed and sanctified the seventh day at creation, it has been blessed and sanctified ever since.
Please explain how you came to that conclusion. You certainly do not have any Biblical support for your statement.
Thus the command to remember the Sabbath, not to make a Sabbath.
Rember can mean two things, one remember I gave it to you at the beginning or I am giving you the Sabbath and don't forget it. Since no one ever was told to observe it the first scenario wouldn't fit.
Making the Sabbath already took place at creation 2000 years before there ever was a Jew or sin.
If you call God resting on the seventh day after creation a sabbath I will accept that, but to try to tell us He blessed every seventh day after the day God rested is not Biblical.
Nor are there any children of God outside of the Israel of God.
All of the children of the Earth are God's children. Most have never heard of Jesus let alone the grafting procedure. I am glad you are not the judge. There are many things we don't know. Right here in the good old USA there are millions who have never been privy to God's plan for His children nand to write that they are all lost is not using good judgment.
Are you a child of Abraham by faith or notIf you have not been graft into the vine, then you are separate from it, which is a lost condition. ? Are you a fellow citizen of the Saints or not? All Israel will be saved.
First of all when we accept Jesus as Savior we are grafted into Him not Israel.
I noticed that you didn't comment on 2Cor 3:7-11 and continue to try to tell us the Sabbath must be observed. No Sabbath law, no Sabbath obligation, but you will not accept that fact and continue to spread falsehood.
I will comment on Romans 11 by telling you that I do not fully understand that chapter, you, on the other hand, seem to understand it. So, tell me how the branches that were broken off the vine can still be a living part of the vine? If all Israel is to be saved and you even wrote that we must be part of the vine to be saved then how could ALL the Israelites be saved if they have been broken from the vine? There has to be more to the story than what Paul wrote.
Have you become one with God's chosen people or not? Jesus Christ did not make two new men, He made one new man. Is Jesus Christ the King and Messiah of the Jews your Lord and Savior or not?
I guess that either I have not made myself clear or you have not been reading my posts. How many times do I have to tell you SDAs that I believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior and I love others as Jesus loves us. As John states in 1Jn3:19-24 if we meet that requirement of verse 19 Here's how we know that we hold to the truth.
Please reconsider, and depart from the tenets of the false gospel of two new men, and two new nations of God in this new covenant era. One of those men and nations is lost.
It is you that needs to "reconsider". You are the one spreading and trying to keep a false gospel.
Sunday sacredness is and has been forced upon countless people since the days of Constantine through human legislation. There are restriction concerning various things on Sundays right now in my state. New Sunday laws have been popping back up in Europe and other places in the last few decades, and many including the church of Rome of course continue to preach and pursue a course of action intended to make these laws universal. These are the plain simple facts, facts which you apparently deny and continue to deny even though they are being played out for all to see.
I do not deny that men has been inhumane to man. There have been many things happen that are not how God would have liked for us to live by. The fact is that the ones you and your church are trying to push onto the World are not one of them.
Go to the thread Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism, where there is the ongoing evidence of the above presented in detail. Start at the beginning, and read and deny as your wish and do.
The ignorances of past men do not qualify what you are trying to promote. Making people go to church on any day is wrong. SDAs telling the World that we will all go to Hell because we do not worship on Saturday is completely wrong. More wrong that those who imposed Sunday on others. You cannot even be sure that the day you call Holy is the same day Jesus rested in the tomb. You avoid 2Cor 3:7-11 because it does not uphold your belief system.
Beam:
If I am in denial please explain why God never gave the Sabbath to gentiles.
GE:To claim that God never gave the Sabbath to gentiles is not only denial or just a lie; it's downright stupidity.
Quote
Amo:God blessed and sanctified the seventh day at creation, it has been blessed and sanctified ever since.
Beam:
Please explain how you came to that conclusion. You certainly do not have any Biblical support for your statement.
GE:If anything could be more stupid than your claim just now, this your 'certainty' certainly is.
Beam:
If you call God resting on the seventh day after creation a sabbath I will accept that, but to try to tell us He blessed every seventh day after the day God rested is not Biblical.
No one calls "'
God ... a sabbath'". How stupid can your questions get before you won't accept them? Meantime we must sit up with them FCOL
That God "'
blessed every seventh day after the day He rested'" is as Biblical as can be. First don't lie --twice in one remark-- with telling us "'
He blessed __every__ seventh day after __the_day__ God rested'"!
BIBLICALLY, "God The Seventh Day rested" "The" first ever "Seventh Day" of the first ever week of the first ever seven days of creation; and having "blessed The Seventh Day God" by having "RESTED ON THAT DAY THE Seventh Day... blessed THE Seventh Day", viz., "That Day The Seventh Day God THUS CONCERNING spake", "spake" ONCE FOR ALL for all "weeks'-Sabbaths" on earth until on the New Earth and forevermore. In fact, in the New Testament it is written "God... by the Son... in these last days... thus concerning The Seventh Day spake, And God THAT DAY The SEVENTH Day rested from all his works."
: Gerhard Ebersöhn Fri Dec 21, 2018 - 06:22:58
No one calls "'God ... a sabbath'". How stupid can your questions get before you won't accept them? Meantime we must sit up with them FCOL
First of all I don't understand why you would write such a post. It reeks of venum toward your fellow man. Secondly, I am only wasting my time eve. I want answers to my "stupid" questions and I now can see that you are not able so you revert to posts full of rancor. Jesus command for us to love our fellow man as He loves us seems like it has not penetrated if you live like you write.
That God "'blessed every seventh day after the day He rested'" is as Biblical as can be. First don't lie --twice in one remark-- with telling us "'He blessed __every__ seventh day after __the_day__ God rested'"!
BIBLICALLY, "God The Seventh Day rested" "The" first ever "Seventh Day" of the first ever week of the first ever seven days of creation; and having "blessed The Seventh Day God" by having "RESTED ON THAT DAY THE Seventh Day... blessed THE Seventh Day", viz., "That Day The Seventh Day God THUS CONCERNING spake", "spake" ONCE FOR ALL for all "weeks'-Sabbaths" on earth until on the New Earth and forevermore. In fact, in the New Testament it is written "God... by the Son... in these last days... thus concerning The Seventh Day spake, And God THAT DAY THE Seventh Day rested from all his works."
All that is so disjointed and of course has not proven anything I write as being a "lie".
I guess that either I have not made myself clear or you have not been reading my posts. How many times do I have to tell you SDAs that I believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior and I love others as Jesus loves us. As John states in 1Jn3:19-24 if we meet that requirement of verse 19 Here's how we know that we hold to the truth.
Nothing than a defiant better-than-others self-righteous hypocrite makes claims like these. You, Beam, do NOT "'
love others as Jesus loves us'"; "'
we'" - no one of "'
us ... meet that requirement'".
If that is how you "'
know that you
hold to the truth'", I'll be damned.
All that is so disjointed and of course has not proven anything I write as being a "lie".
Besides your horrific abuse of Genesis 2:2,3, your adding the word 'every' and your omitting the word "SEVENTH", are LIES.
: Gerhard Ebersöhn Fri Dec 21, 2018 - 07:04:07
Nothing than a defiant better-than-others self-righteous hypocrite makes claims like these. You, Beam, do NOT "'love others as Jesus loves us'"; "'we'" - no one of "'us ... meet that requirement'"
Yes, I realize that. I also realize that Jesus shed His blood to cover where I go wrong. I also know something else, not loving what a person writes is not, in any way, not loving the person who writes such nasty things. We all fall short, at least I am trying to do what Jesus has asked of us.
If that is how you "'know that you hold to the truth'", I'll be damned.
I didn't write it John did and I, for one, believe. Why do you not believe?
Beam:
First of all I don't understand why you would write such a post. It reeks of venum toward your fellow man. Secondly, I am only wasting my time eve. I want answers to my "stupid" questions and I now can see that you are not able so you revert to posts full of rancor. Jesus command for us to love our fellow man as He loves us seems like it has not penetrated if you live like you write.
...Beam of darkness...
The flower pots of adventism have taken over the sda section of this forum....
There are no "mainstream" sda's who post here.
The only "SDA compliant posters" are those who identify with the extreme views of the type held by David Koresh and Michael Trevaser, Eugene Shubert and of course Gerhard Ebersöhn.
Some lesser SDA types are also here - but they have admitted that they believe that the SDA church has apostatised from the original teaching and that the SDA church is fast becoming babylon.
Can't get a logical, biblical discussion from any of them.
: current occupant2 Fri Dec 21, 2018 - 20:49:37
The flower pots of adventism have taken over the sda section of this forum....
There are no "mainstream" sda's who post here.
Can't get a logical, biblical discussion from any of them.
Boy ain't that the truth.
: current occupant2 Fri Dec 21, 2018 - 20:49:37
The flower pots of adventism have taken over the sda section of this forum....
There are no "mainstream" sda's who post here.
The only "SDA compliant posters" are those who identify with the extreme views of the type held by David Koresh and Michael Trevaser, Eugene Shubert and of course Gerhard Ebersöhn.
Some lesser SDA types are also here - but they have admitted that they believe that the SDA church has apostatised from the original teaching and that the SDA church is fast becoming babylon.
Can't get a logical, biblical discussion from any of them.
Strange coming from one who rarely discusses anything, just hurls accusations. You have certainly not demonstrated the art of logical discussion, let alone biblical discussion on these threads. More like hit and run tactics.
Who is like David Koresh? Do you know what he was like?
: beam Fri Dec 21, 2018 - 23:00:04
Boy ain't that the truth.
Says the ex SDA.
: Amo Fri Dec 21, 2018 - 23:17:23
Strange coming from one who rarely discusses anything, just hurls accusations. You have certainly not demonstrated the art of logical discussion, let alone biblical discussion on these threads. More like hit and run tactics.
Who is like David Koresh? Do you know what he was like?
Yet you refuse to discuss what you have called "accusations".
Koresh was the logical end point in teachings and actions of Seventh-day adventism.
We see him at his starting point in the collective sda's on here who twist scripture to their own purposes and in the threats and intimidation to those who disagree with their wackjob teachings and "theology".
Satan loves the sabbath because it detracts from and distracts from the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Why wouldn't satan want saturday to be veneratied as SDA's teach it to be.
: current occupant2 Sat Dec 22, 2018 - 10:35:47
Yet you refuse to discuss what you have called "accusations".
Koresh was the logical end point in teachings and actions of Seventh-day adventism.
We see him at his starting point in the collective sda's on here who twist scripture to their own purposes and in the threats and intimidation to those who disagree with their wackjob teachings and "theology".
Baloney! What threats and intimidation? David Koresh was a wack job that thought he was the Lord Jesus Christ. More lying accusations about where SDA teachings and actions lead. No meat, no scripture, just constant accusations.
: Amo Sat Dec 22, 2018 - 14:53:00
Baloney! What threats and intimidation? David Koresh was a wack job that thought he was the Lord Jesus Christ. More lying accusations about where SDA teachings and actions lead. No meat, no scripture, just constant accusations.
Yes, Amo, Without Ellen's writings to support his "wack job" ideas, Koresh would not have been able to exert the same hold on his followers.
Koresh is ultimately the logical end point for Ellen's and sda's teachings that do replace the Gospel of Jesus Christ with a false gospel - which is no gospel at all.
: current occupant2 Sun Dec 23, 2018 - 07:34:14
Yes, Amo, Without Ellen's writings to support his "wack job" ideas, Koresh would not have been able to exert the same hold on his followers.
Koresh is ultimately the logical end point for Ellen's and sda's teachings that do replace the Gospel of Jesus Christ with a false gospel - which is no gospel at all.
More BALONEY! When I met him, he did not mention or use EGW's writings. After sending his three prophets or what have you several days ahead of himself to prepare the way for him, he arrived and began his manipulation through vagueness and confusion. When I began to question him to get down to the bottom of what his main point was, he was highly disappointed and reprimanded those who were supposed to have prepared the way for him. I specifically recall him giving them the evil eye, and saying to them, I thought you said these people were ready. I suppose a few others and I who arrived that day, had not been properly prepared by his chosen forerunners.
Eventually I asked him point blank if he was saying that we need to forget everything we know or think we know and listen to and believe only him, he said yes. Shortly thereafter I asked him three times point blank if he was saying that he was the Lord Jesus Christ, he would not answer the question, but immediately changed the subject or attempted to redirect the conversation. After the third time asking without him acknowledging that he was not the Lord Jesus Christ I stood up and stated to all that I was not going to stay and listen to a man who would not deny that he was saying that he was the Lord Jesus Christ. I and several others left the meeting. The people that stayed and were deceived were not deceived because of EGW as you falsely claim. They were deceived because they listened to another over and above scripture, claiming to be Jesus Christ himself. If they had believed scripture and the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ himself warning of the many false Christ's that would appear, they would not have been deceived.
EGW has and had nothing to do with people who would listen to and believe a man professing to be the Lord Jesus Christ, and telling them they must forget everything they know and believe him alone. No one can do anything for people like that. All who refuse to think and act for themselves in relation to God alone in searching out and understanding the truths of God's word will be deceived. No one can do these things for us. The word of God is the standard that all are measured by.
Yes, YOU have provided more BALONEY!!
: Amo Sun Dec 23, 2018 - 08:33:47
More BALONEY! When I met him, he did not mention or use EGW's writings. After sending his three prophets or what have you several days ahead of himself to prepare the way for him, he arrived and began his manipulation through vagueness and confusion. When I began to question him to get down to the bottom of what his main point was, he was highly disappointed and reprimanded those who were supposed to have prepared the way for him. I specifically recall him giving them the evil eye, and saying to them, I thought you said these people were ready. I suppose a few others and I who arrived that day, had not been properly prepared by his chosen forerunners.
Eventually I asked him point blank if he was saying that we need to forget everything we know or think we know and listen to and believe only him, he said yes. Shortly thereafter I asked him three times point blank if he was saying that he was the Lord Jesus Christ, he would not answer the question, but immediately changed the subject or attempted to redirect the conversation. After the third time asking without him acknowledging that he was not the Lord Jesus Christ I stood up and stated to all that I was not going to stay and listen to a man who would not deny that he was saying that he was the Lord Jesus Christ. I and several others left the meeting. The people that stayed and were deceived were not deceived because of EGW as you falsely claim. They were deceived because they listened to another over and above scripture, claiming to be Jesus Christ himself. If they had believed scripture and the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ himself warning of the many false Christ's that would appear, they would not have been deceived.
EGW has and had nothing to do with people who would listen to and believe a man professing to be the Lord Jesus Christ, and telling them they must forget everything they know and believe him alone. No one can do anything for people like that. All who refuse to think and act for themselves in relation to God alone in searching out and understanding the truths of God's word will be deceived. No one can do these things for us. The word of God is the standard that all are measured by.
: Amo Fri Dec 21, 2018 - 23:19:23
Says the ex SDA.
It is the truth Amo. You and Hobie are the only SDAs posting that post what SDAs believe and yet when we present solid New Testament and even Old Testament facts you revert to unseemly tactics. I am an ex not because I do not love my SDAs brothers and sisters. I am an ex because of what I have presented here on this forum and other forums like it. Only a couple of SDAs have ever taken a critical look at all the New Testament scripture I have presented. Most of you revert to name calling or some other type of put down. Yes, I take it with a grain of salt for myself, but it really does make me sad that another Christian would stoop to tactics like that instead of giving me a logical and truthful explanation of why you believe I am wrong.
Case in hand. I have presented Paul's writings from 2Cor3:7-11 several times on this board and never once has any SDA tried to explain away the fact that Paul is telling us we are not under the 10 commandments. The king James version goes so far to tell us: 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. What does "done away" mean to you? Why did Paul compare the Holy Spirit to the 10 commandments? Why did Paul write these things in such a powerful manner'?
Why did Jesus expound on the law in Matt 5? Why did He tell the Jews that the law would be enforce until all is fulfilled. Why do SDAs ignore the fact that it was all the law, 613 of them. Not one jot nor one tittle of any of them would be allowed to be excused until all was to be fulfilled. SDAs tell us all has not been fulfilled and yet do not fulfill but just a full of them. The fact is that Paul and other New Testament writers have told us like in 2Cor 3 and Gal 3 that the old covenant law has been fulfilled and Christians are not under it. Now it comes down to making a choice, follow Ellen White and her insistence on 10 commandment observance or allowing the holy Spirit to guide you into a new relationship with God's plan.
Beam:
I have presented Paul's writings from 2Cor3:7-11 several times on this board and never once has any SDA tried to explain away the fact that Paul is telling us we are not under the 10 commandments. The king James version goes so far to tell us: 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. What does "done away" mean to you? Why did Paul compare the Holy Spirit to the 10 commandments? Why did Paul write these things in such a powerful manner'?
2Corinthians 3:7-11 does not 'present' the Ten Commandments. Try as you may with all your power, you will never explain or be able to show "'
from 2Cor3:7-11 that Paul is telling us we are not under the 10 commandments'" even if you reduced the Ten with the two Commandments, the Fourth and the Ninth, which you so overtly and proudly reject like they are satanic junk.
And where "'
did Paul compare the Holy Spirit to the 10 commandments?'" Ludicrous!
: Gerhard Ebersöhn Wed Dec 26, 2018 - 11:52:31
2Corinthians 3:7-11 does not 'present' the Ten Commandments.
Oh! Then what was Paul referring to in verse 7? What then were
"written and engraven in stones"? Come on Gerhard and tell us what you believe Paul was referring to when he wrote that verse. You are so "brilliant" give us the real facts.
Try as you may with all your power, you will never explain or be able to show "'from 2Cor3:7-11 that Paul is telling us we are not under the 10 commandments'" even if you reduced the Ten with the two Commandments, the Fourth and the Ninth, which you so overtly and proudly reject like they are satanic junk.
I don't have to "explain" anything Gerhard. Paul wrote it and it is there either to believe or deny. 11 For if that which is
done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
And where "'did Paul compare the Holy Spirit to the 10 commandments?'" Ludicrous!
8 How shall not the
ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the
ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.7 The
Law was carved in letters on stone tablets, and God's glory appeared when it was given. Even though the brightness on Moses' face was fading, it was so strong that the people of Israel could not keep their eyes fixed on him. If the
Law, which brings death when it is in force, came with such glory, 8 how much greater is the
glory that belongs to the activity of the Spirit! 9 The system which brings condemnation was glorious; how much more glorious is the activity which brings salvation! 10 We may say that because of the far brighter glory now the glory that was so bright in the past is gone. 11
For if there was glory in that which lasted for a while, how much more glory is there in that which lasts forever!Gerhard, If you even read 2Cor3:7-11 I doubt you were able to comprehend what Paul wrote. Or maybe you did comprehend are willing to try to deceive others to save face. We will have to allow the reader to decide
Hello Amo, You have not replied to my last post to you. Are you not willing to set us straight?
Beam:
I don't have to "explain" anything. Paul wrote it and it is there either to believe or deny. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
Paul wrote "'
it'" : "the ministration of death was glorious"
The Beam wrote "'
it'" : "'from 2Cor3:7-11 that Paul is telling us we are not under the 10 commandments'"
WHO LIES? YOU, Beam, or Paul?!
Oh! Then what was Paul referring to in verse 7? What then were "written and engraven in stones"? Come on Gerhard and tell us what you believe Paul was referring to when he wrote that verse. You are so "brilliant" give us the real facts.
In verse 7 Paul refers to and writes of "the MINISTRATION of death written and engraven in [two tables of] stones" the Ten Commandments obviously TROUGH MOSES. Paul wrote it "was glorious", not what you claim, "'was done away'" with.
But first, you LIE claiming that I ever said the Law as well as its ministration as well as any glory connected with it was not done away with, or more exactly, was not "to be done away with" by and through and in JESUS CHRIST "nailed to the cross ... and taken out of the way". Man, how long have I been telling you Jesus is or rather was GOD crucified Lamb of God our Passover! You are STILL the SDA you used to be. You haven't changed one bit.
: Gerhard Ebersöhn Fri Dec 28, 2018 - 15:30:31
Paul wrote "'it'" : "the ministration of death was glorious"
The Beam wrote "'it'" : "'from 2Cor3:7-11 that Paul is telling us we are not under the 10 commandments'"
WHO LIES? YOU, Beam, or Paul?!
Yes Gerhard. "WAS" makes the statement PAST TENSE in the CONTEXT of Paul's instructions.
Further, Paul says that the glory of that ministration of death was fading away to be LESS GLORIOUS than something else.
WHAT IS THAT "SOMETHING ELSE"?
CO2:
Yes Gerhard. "WAS" makes the statement PAST TENSE in the CONTEXT of Paul's instructions.
Further, Paul says that the glory of that ministration of death was fading away to be LESS GLORIOUS than something else.
WHAT IS THAT "SOMETHING ELSE"?
I don't think what you think; else you would eagerly have told us what you think "'
THAT "SOMETHING ELSE"'" is. But I am not scared or ashamed to tell what that '
SOMETHING ELSE' is. It is CHRIST IN HIS GLORY, THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER which is JESUS IN HIS SUFFERING, CRUCIFIED, KILLED, BURIED, AND "RAISED FROM THE DEAD". It is Jesus Christ the PRINCE OF PEACE regaining Paradise Lost ON THE BATTLEFIELD AND 'KINGDOM OF MY FATHER'. "THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS" WHO "IN IT TRIUMPHED", WHOM "GOD EXALTED AT HIS OWN RIGHT HAND HIS HEAVENLY MAJESTY", "BEING RESTED UP AGAIN HIS NAME : THE MOST HOLY PLACE".
: beam Fri Dec 28, 2018 - 08:13:30
Hello Amo, You have not replied to my last post to you. Are you not willing to set us straight?
I've set this exact issue straight many times over on these very threads years before you ever arrived. It gets tiresome going through the same issues again and again with different people who think they have brought something new to the table. Your arguments are old news. I will get to them again as time allows, by addressing them anew, or simply finding where I addressed them previously and copying and pasting one of those replies. This after addressing other issues of a more prominent and present nature.
: Amo Fri Dec 28, 2018 - 20:52:46
I've set this exact issue straight many times over on these very threads years before you ever arrived. It gets tiresome going through the same issues again and again with different people who think they have brought something new to the table. Your arguments are old news. I will get to them again as time allows, by addressing them anew, or simply finding where I addressed them previously and copying and pasting one of those replies. This after addressing other issues of a more prominent and present nature.
Nothing is more important than the issues "beam" has raised in his post yet you continue to avoid them while presenting lofty claims for previous words from you.
Here they are again.
Beam said:
It is the truth Amo. You and Hobie are the only SDAs posting that post what SDAs believe and yet when we present solid New Testament and even Old Testament facts you revert to unseemly tactics. I am an ex not because I do not love my SDAs brothers and sisters. I am an ex because of what I have presented here on this forum and other forums like it. Only a couple of SDAs have ever taken a critical look at all the New Testament scripture I have presented.
Most of you revert to name calling or some other type of put down. Yes, I take it with a grain of salt for myself, but it really does make me sad that another Christian would stoop to tactics like that instead of giving me a logical and truthful explanation of why you believe I am wrong.
Case in hand. I have presented Paul's writings from 2Cor3:7-11 several times on this board and never once has any SDA tried to explain away the fact that Paul is telling us we are not under the 10 commandments.
The king James version goes so far to tell us: 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
What does "done away" mean to you?
Why did Paul compare the Holy Spirit to the 10 commandments?
Why did Paul write these things in such a powerful manner'?
Why did Jesus expound on the law in Matt 5?
Why did He tell the Jews that the law would be enforce until all is fulfilled.
Why do SDAs ignore the fact that it was all the law, 613 of them.
Not one jot nor one tittle of any of them would be allowed to be excused until all was to be fulfilled.
SDAs tell us all has not been fulfilled and yet do not fulfill but just a full of them.
The fact is that Paul and other New Testament writers have told us like in 2Cor 3 and Gal 3 that the old covenant law has been fulfilled and Christians are not under it.
Now it comes down to making a choice, follow Ellen White and her insistence on 10 commandment observance or allowing the holy Spirit to guide you into a new relationship with God's plan.
: current occupant2 Sat Dec 29, 2018 - 11:43:38
Nothing is more important than the issues "beam" has raised in his post yet you continue to avoid them while presenting lofty claims for previous words from you.
Here they are again.
Beam said:
It is the truth Amo. You and Hobie are the only SDAs posting that post what SDAs believe and yet when we present solid New Testament and even Old Testament facts you revert to unseemly tactics. I am an ex not because I do not love my SDAs brothers and sisters. I am an ex because of what I have presented here on this forum and other forums like it. Only a couple of SDAs have ever taken a critical look at all the New Testament scripture I have presented.
Most of you revert to name calling or some other type of put down. Yes, I take it with a grain of salt for myself, but it really does make me sad that another Christian would stoop to tactics like that instead of giving me a logical and truthful explanation of why you believe I am wrong.
Case in hand. I have presented Paul's writings from 2Cor3:7-11 several times on this board and never once has any SDA tried to explain away the fact that Paul is telling us we are not under the 10 commandments.
The king James version goes so far to tell us: 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
What does "done away" mean to you?
Why did Paul compare the Holy Spirit to the 10 commandments?
Why did Paul write these things in such a powerful manner'?
Why did Jesus expound on the law in Matt 5?
Why did He tell the Jews that the law would be enforce until all is fulfilled.
Why do SDAs ignore the fact that it was all the law, 613 of them.
Not one jot nor one tittle of any of them would be allowed to be excused until all was to be fulfilled.
SDAs tell us all has not been fulfilled and yet do not fulfill but just a full of them.
The fact is that Paul and other New Testament writers have told us like in 2Cor 3 and Gal 3 that the old covenant law has been fulfilled and Christians are not under it.
Now it comes down to making a choice, follow Ellen White and her insistence on 10 commandment observance or allowing the holy Spirit to guide you into a new relationship with God's plan.
Some people never learn to stop making false accusations. I say again, I have already addressed these issues over and over, over the years. Unfortunately for you, I save many of my posts in a file, in order to refer to them if or when necessary, or sometimes just use them instead of writing new ones again regarding that which I have already addressed. In fact, there are so many posts in that file, that I rarely use it any more. It ends up being easier to just write something new, than search all through them to find what I've already written but have not saved in a manner conducive to easily find and or identify the topic addressed in them. Just for you though, when time affords, I will not write anything in response to beam's arguments. I'll find old posts to address these moot arguments that I have already addressed in the past.
: Amo Sat Dec 29, 2018 - 16:14:26
Some people never learn to stop making false accusations. I say again, I have already addressed these issues over and over, over the years. Unfortunately for you, I save many of my posts in a file, in order to refer to them if or when necessary, or sometimes just use them instead of writing new ones again regarding that which I have already addressed. In fact, there are so many posts in that file, that I rarely use it any more. It ends up being easier to just write something new, than search all through them to find what I've already written but have not saved in a manner conducive to easily find and or identify the topic addressed in them. Just for you though, when time affords, I will not write anything in response to beam's arguments. I'll find old posts to address these moot arguments that I have already addressed in the past.
Might I just suggest that you look at the verses you already claim as being false accusations. Since you know that they are then just hit the keys with that information. It should not take but a few lines and you have already written more lines than it would take to explain what Paul really wrote there in 2Cor3:7-11 and The whole chapter of Gal 3 where Paul writes that we are not under the law with its 10 commandments.
May I also remind you that Matt 5: 18 says For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. So, I ask you to explain why SDAs, who believe Jesus didn't fulfill ALL of the law, can and do disregard even the smallest tittle or jot of the law? A few sentences should do the trick. You should be able to do all of the right off the top of your head and settle it all once and for all. Remember fulfill or accomplish means to
bring to an end
: beam Sat Dec 29, 2018 - 23:05:09
Might I just suggest that you look at the verses you already claim as being false accusations. Since you know that they are then just hit the keys with that information. It should not take but a few lines and you have already written more lines than it would take to explain what Paul really wrote there in 2Cor3:7-11 and The whole chapter of Gal 3 where Paul writes that we are not under the law with its 10 commandments.
May I also remind you that Matt 5: 18 says For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. So, I ask you to explain why SDAs, who believe Jesus didn't fulfill ALL of the law, can and do disregard even the smallest tittle or jot of the law? A few sentences should do the trick. You should be able to do all of the right off the top of your head and settle it all once and for all. Remember fulfill or accomplish means to bring to an end
Your may of course suggest whatever you wish. Your suggestion that a web of tangled misinformation and misapplications can be undone with a few words off the top of my or anyone else's head, is grossly inaccurate. The battle between the father of lies, and Jesus Christ our Lord who is the "way, the truth, and the life," has been going on now for about six thousand years. It cost the life of the Son of God to save the deceived, and will continue until our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ returns and sets all things straight and proper. The false gospel you ascribe to, is just one of the endless manifestations of lying spirits and wonders supported and propagated by the father of lies himself.
You know as well as I do, that no few words I write here and now, are going to end your battle against what I believe and promote as scriptural truth. You will simply twist them to your own ends, or deny their significance if you actually address them at all. Nevertheless, if you want just a few words off the top of my head for now, before I more thoroughly address your twisted beliefs once again, sure.
The bible does not contradict itself, nor does one scripture negate the testimony of another unless of course it is specifically designated to do so. God's ten commandments are held up as the standard for God's people until the last book and chapter of the bible, which truth you have yet to address at all. Please do address why the scriptures do this, if in fact their real intention is to reveal that they are no longer a standard for God's people.
The bible itself clearly delineates the difference between God's ten commandments and the many laws more specific to the literal nation of Israel given to Israel by God through Moses. The purveyors of the false gospel do always compound the two, that they might do away with God's law along with those specific to Israel that were meant to end with that literal nation. Nevertheless, as already mentioned, though the scriptures clearly and specifically do address the fulfillment and end of those laws specific to the nation of Israel, they do also clearly and specifically uphold the standard and validity of God's ten commandments to the last book and chapter of the same. The false gospel ignores and or rejects these latter scriptures, and compounds the two, for the purpose as already stated, of being able to reject the authority of the ten.
The ministration of death engraved in stone was just that. The ten commandments condemn all of humanity to death. The false gospel claims that the commandments must be done away with unto salvation, the true gospel proclaims that the sinner must be done away with unto salvation. Thus Jesus Christ perfectly fulfilled the demands of the law in both His life and death. In His life He kept them perfectly, and in His death He took the sins of the world upon Himself, that all who choose by faith to be in Him might secure their salvation by the same. This, as the Apostle Paul clearly points out, was for the purpose of establishing the law within human flesh, not dong away with the law. The false gospel maintains that the law must change or go away, the true gospel maintains that sinners must change and go away. The purpose of the law remains the same, to drive the sinner to Jesus Christ for the salvation of their soul. This, as the law itself, will not and cannot change until Christ returns and fulfills all things relating to the salvation of humanity and the eradication of sin altogether. The sacrifice of Christ at the cross was complete and is finished. The salvation of souls by choosing to enter into that sacrifice with their Lord and Savior unto salvation cannot be complete until the harvests of the world in relation to the same reach maturity and are harvested by Jesus Christ Himself at His return. I guess I'll stop here, since I've already spoken more than a few words.
The following is taken from an old post addressing some of the issues at hand brought forth by beam. Since I have been accused of never addressing such things before, I post it as evidence to the contrary, and of course to address some of beams as I see it moot points.
Number Four defines the time frame of the Sabbath, but I think I covered that in my OP.
I appreciate the responses, but I wonder how many SDA REALLY practice the Sabbath. I get the impression that you folk want some wiggle room. Frankly you are showing the fallacy of the burden you put on yourselves and onto others. You can't follow the demands of the Sabbath.
The New Covenant is clear. You can't mix Law and Grace. You folk ought to quit trying because you are denouncing Christ's finished work on the cross. Finished means finished. That means the end of the Law. If you're going to follow the Law you should pull out the entire Mitzvoh, the 613, and follow all of them. The Law was never meant to be a smorgasboard from which one could pick what he wanted to observe and discard what he didn't want to deal with.
So says notreligious. The scriptures though, give a different testimony. The NT while continuing to admonish all to obey the ten commandments of God to the very end, certainly also addresses changes regarding many of the 613 laws referred to by notreligious. Which testimony of course, must be ignored or uninvestigated by notreligious in order that he or she may bring false accusations against those who still believe we should keep the commandments of God.
The following scriptures are quite clear concerning the fact that many of the 613 laws notreligious is referring to, have indeed been done away with, or are no longer pertinent to ones salvation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Matt 23:37-38 (KJV)
34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! 35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: Luke 13:34-35 (KJV)
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:21-24 (KJV)
From the above words of our Lord and Savior, it can be easily deduced, that all the laws of Israel pertaining to the sanctuary and it's services would no longer be, or need to be practiced when in fact that sanctuary no longer existed. Which very thing Christ predicted in the above verses. First the sanctuary became desolate, that is void of God's presence and purpose, once Christ had been sacrificed for sin, and was rejected by most of Israel. Second in fact it was destroyed altogether by Roman armies.
Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, 16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. 17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. 19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. 20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: 21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) 22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
Obviously, the priesthood and the high priest and all the laws and regulations pertaining to the same, were no longer applicable.
Her 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Nor were there to by anymore rules or regs concerning animal sacrifices.
Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. 3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. 4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. 5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.................................................................................................
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.....................
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Now we see that circumcision was also done away with as a necessity for God's people. In fact, all the laws of Moses were brought into question. What are the laws of Moses? Are they not the laws which God allowed to be written by the hand of Moses, as apposed to the hand of God? Those in fact which were subject to change, and even meant to change once our Lord and Savior fulfilled those things which the sanctuary and it's services pointed to, and the blessings upon the nation of Israel were thus conferred upon all nations and peoples of humanity. Yet still, the gentiles were commanded to abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication. All things associated with the many false forms of worship prevalent in their day.
God calls the ten commandments His many times over (Deut 11:13, Deut 5:29, Deut 5:10, Num 15:40, Lev 26:3, Exod 20:6, Exod 16:28,)
Gal 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
The ten commandments do not deal with days, and months, and times, and years. Though they do address the Sabbath day, it would be a stretch at best to associate the above with one of the ten commandments. The above is an obvious reference to the days, months, times, and years associated with the ceremonial laws. Of course those who wish to invalidate the pertinence of the ten commandments today, claim they are a part of the ceremonial laws as well. Or at least they claim, the Sabbath commandment is.
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. 7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be. 11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. 12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
Again circumcision is no longer required. Nor is all of the law to be kept again, but for those who also demand circumcision. Why then do so many say that one who believes they should keep the ten commandments according to the many NT scriptures which admonish us to do so, must also keep all the rest of the law. This is not scriptural. The NT clearly points out that the ten commandments are still to be kept, but the laws of Moses, that is those written by the hand of Moses instead of the hand of God, are no longer all required.
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: )
Though many like to make the above scriptures in reference to the ten commandments, that they may support their rejection of the fourth, the context of the same proves otherwise. The contrast brought forth in verse eleven is again between those of Circumcision, and those of Uncircumcision. Thus again, these scriptures are not addressing the ten commandments, which say nothing about circumcision.
Verse fifteen itself, being the verse many claim is referring to the ten commandments, specifically states, "the law of commandments contained in ordinances". A look at the Strong's Concordance definition of the word ordinance will shed more light on the subject.
Greek Strong's Number: 1378
Greek Word: d??µa
Transliteration: dogma
Phonetic Pronunciation:dog'-mah
Root: from the base of <G1380>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 2:230,178
Part of Speech: n n
Vine's Words: Decree, Ordinance
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
decree 3
ordinance 2
[Total Count: 5]
from the base of <G1380> (dokeo); a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical) :- decree, ordinance.
The ten commandments are never referred to as ordinances in the bible. Even if they had been, the context introduced in verse eleven between those circumcised, and those uncircumcised reveals the ordinances in question to be concerning ceremonial law, and not the ten commandments. Without question, all pertaining to the sanctuary and it's services drastically changed when our Lord and savior became the literal sacrifice to which all the symbolic sacrifices, services, and ordinances of the same only pointed to. To make the above apply to the moral law, the ten commandments, not only takes the verses in question out of context, but makes the scriptures themselves contradictory.
Even if the above verses were in relation to the moral law, they would not mean that the moral law had been done away with, but rather that the enmity caused by the same had been done away with in Christ, which as a matter of fact it was. Paul clearly addresses this issue in other scriptures. Nevertheless, the context of the above is set between those of the circumcision, and those not of the circumcision.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
The above is of course a favorite of those who wish to deny the validity of the fourth commandment, since Sabbath days are mentioned among those things which were simply shadows of things to come. Of course, once again, context reveals the error of this claim.
The ten commandments are not mentioned at all in the above scriptures. Nor is Paul admonishing us to ignore the significance of any one of them here, when he clearly taught they should be kept elsewhere (Rom 2:13-15, 3:31, 7:14, 8:3-4, 1 Cor 7:19). There were many Sabbaths connected to the ceremonial laws. Since the Sabbath days mentioned above are right in the middle of other ordinances concerning the ceremonial, and not the moral law, the Sabbaths being referred to are obviously those of ceremonial significance. To suggest otherwise is once again to pull them out of context, and contradict other plain testimonies of scriptures regarding the keeping of the commandments of God.
Nevertheless, this is exactly what those who wish to deny the validity of the fourth commandment do, and must do in order to continue to believe their lie. They care not, that what they believe makes the bible contradict itself, but only that they are able to continue believing as they wish, instead of as the bible teaches. Verse twenty one and twenty two though, finalize the issue. Pointing out that the ordinances being referred to include things such as touch not, taste not, handle not, "after the commandments and doctrines of men". Which statement definitely excludes the ten commandments from that which is being discussed. Unless of course those who deny the validity of the fourth commandment will go so far as to say that the ten commandments are of man, and not God.
We are admonished to keep the ten commandments of God from one end of scripture to the other. Anyone who teaches or preaches otherwise will be condemned as a liar in the end.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Thanks for nothing Amo. Nothing about 2Cor3:7-11, Gal 3, Matt 5 and your commandment reference in Revelations doesn't have a 10 in it nor does 10 appear in any New Testament reference to commandments. You and your church only assume there is a 10 there.
: beam Sun Dec 30, 2018 - 16:24:00
Thanks for nothing Amo. Nothing about 2Cor3:7-11, Gal 3, Matt 5 and your commandment reference in Revelations doesn't have a 10 in it nor does 10 appear in any New Testament reference to commandments. You and your church only assume there is a 10 there.
I'm not done addressing your false gospel yet. It is as I have suggested though, no number of words be it small or great is going to settle this matter between us. Jesus Christ will settle this matter and all others when He returns. When His judgement of living and dead is over, He will return to execute His judgement regarding the same. So be it.
: Amo Sun Dec 30, 2018 - 21:43:02
I'm not done addressing your false gospel yet. It is as I have suggested though, no number of words be it small or great is going to settle this matter between us. Jesus Christ will settle this matter and all others when He returns. When His judgement of living and dead is over, He will return to execute His judgement regarding the same. So be it.
You call it a false gospel and have not addressed it as of yet???? You seem to be pretty sure of yourself. How did you come to the conclusion what I have presented is false if you have not addressed it yet? That seems to be the trend nowadays, guilty until proven innocent.
: beam Sun Dec 30, 2018 - 22:17:47
You call it a false gospel and have not addressed it as of yet???? You seem to be pretty sure of yourself. How did you come to the conclusion what I have presented is false if you have not addressed it yet? That seems to be the trend nowadays, guilty until proven innocent.
I have and will continue to address it, you simply reject that which I present and claim I have not addressed it. You may believe as you wish, but you will not control what or how I address your beliefs and or false accusations. Nor are you the only person I am addressing, there are several others on this and other threads. You will just have to be patient beam, I only have so much time. You can demand I address you before everyone and everything else I am also working on, but the ultimate decision is of course mine. I'll take a look at one of the points you are so excited about in the next post.
Let's take a closer look at the first verses you submitted as supposed evidence that the commandments of God have passed away or are done away with.
2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious. 12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.(NKJV)
It is quite obvious from the above emphasized verses, that it is not the commandments of God that are being referred to as passing away. Even if it was though, it would be the condemnation or ministry of death that was passing away in and through Jesus Christ for those saved, not the commandments themselves. Paul's testimony elsewhere clarifies this truth, as we will examine shortly.
Sometimes it is necessary to step outside of the tunnel vision incorporated when attempting to use scripture to prove this or that point, rather than simply comprehending what is actually being said. If in fact the reference to something passing away was the ten commandments themselves, then as pointed out in verse 13 they would have passed away along with the glory on Moses face immediately after being given to Israel by God. We know this not to be the case, therefore do we also know that that which was passing away was not the ten commandments of God. Rather it was the glory of God which still shone upon Moses face that was passing away. Which glory was far greater and unfading in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, not by way of fading glory from ones countenance, but by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit of God.
If in fact Paul was telling us in 2 Corinthians that the commandments of God have passed away, then why did he state the following in his first letter to the Corinthians?
1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.(NKJV)
There is no contradiction in Paul's testimony, save the contradictions created by those wishing to use his words to prove their predetermined points, over and above the harmony of Paul's complete testimony. The purpose of the ten commandments of God remains the same today as it ever has been, to convict the sinner of their guilt before God, and lead them to the cross of Jesus Christ for salvation. It is God's standard which cannot be changed, and was and is fulfilled only in Christ Jesus our Lord. Who Himself provided the spiritual life, death, and resurrection necessary to our salvation through His literal life death and resurrection as our perfect example and leader unto the same.
(Rom 6-8)
Rom 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. 13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
According to Paul, during his day after the establishment of the new covenant in Christ Jesus our Lord, the commandments were still holy, just, good, and spiritual. They have not passed way, but are still an important element of the conviction of sin, and the need of the sinner to change. In this new covenant era it is still the sinner that needs to change, not God's law. They have not passed away, but rather have been fulfilled and established in Christ Jesus. These truths are part of the true gospel of Jesus Christ, and of course exist in contradiction to the false gospel's declarations to the opposite effect.
Rom 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who[a] do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies [d]through His Spirit who dwells in you 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
It is the carnal mind and nature that we are to be saved from, because is not subject to the law of God and cannot be. These are not the words of one who believes the commandments of God are no longer as the false gospel declares. As the true gospel and the Apostle Paul himself testify, Jesus Christ came to deliver us from the condemnation of God's law, not its standard which He exalted.
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
First of all Amo the 10 commandments were given to the Israelites, verse 7. Those commandments were never given to gentiles. Secondly you conveniently omitted the fact that in verse 9 the 10 commandments are said to be superseded by the Spirit which does not bring death. The Spirit brings righteousness. Verse 10 explains that the 10 commandments have no glory because the Spirit surpasses the 10's glory. Verse 11 tells us that the 10 that came with glory wer transitory. Transitory means temporary. The Spirit will be with us through eternity.
There were 9 commands that dealt with morality and one that dealt with ceremonial or ritual observance of a day. Nine commands about morality were just a drop in the bucket. Morality commands would reach into the hundreds. The greates command to love our fellow man isn't even part of the nine moral laws of the ten.
You quote 1Cor7:19 and I assume you are trying to tell us that commandments means the 10 commandments. Well the verse does not say that does it. No verse in all of the New Testament ever say ten commandments. If we didn't already know that Jesus fulfilled all the old covenant the verses you quote would have to mean every command that God has ever given to Israel and to the gentiles.
I have no problem with Paul telling us that the law was holy, just, and good, but Paul never sys we are under it. We can glean much from the law because it contains many commands about morality which are certainly included in the law of love. Even you know we are not under the ritual laws found in that same covenant. Gentiles never have been, so show us where He imposes them upon us now.
You didn't address Gal 3:19. I would like to add another one of Paul's texts on the same subject Eph 2:14-15 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations.
When Paul writes "the law" to what do you think he is referring? What does "setting aside" mean to you? What does Matt 5:18 mean? 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. To me it means that no one can add or take even the smallest law from the old covenant and void it until Jesus fulfills that law. I believe He did just that at Calvary and so did Paul.
: beam Tue Jan 01, 2019 - 22:37:40
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
First of all Amo the 10 commandments were given to the Israelites, verse 7. Those commandments were never given to gentiles. Secondly you conveniently omitted the fact that in verse 9 the 10 commandments are said to be superseded by the Spirit which does not bring death. The Spirit brings righteousness. Verse 10 explains that the 10 commandments have no glory because the Spirit surpasses the 10's glory. Verse 11 tells us that the 10 that came with glory wer transitory. Transitory means temporary. The Spirit will be with us through eternity.
There were 9 commands that dealt with morality and one that dealt with ceremonial or ritual observance of a day. Nine commands about morality were just a drop in the bucket. Morality commands would reach into the hundreds. The greates command to love our fellow man isn't even part of the nine moral laws of the ten.
You quote 1Cor7:19 and I assume you are trying to tell us that commandments means the 10 commandments. Well the verse does not say that does it. No verse in all of the New Testament ever say ten commandments. If we didn't already know that Jesus fulfilled all the old covenant the verses you quote would have to mean every command that God has ever given to Israel and to the gentiles.
I have no problem with Paul telling us that the law was holy, just, and good, but Paul never sys we are under it. We can glean much from the law because it contains many commands about morality which are certainly included in the law of love. Even you know we are not under the ritual laws found in that same covenant. Gentiles never have been, so show us where He imposes them upon us now.
You didn't address Gal 3:19. I would like to add another one of Paul's texts on the same subject Eph 2:14-15 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations.
When Paul writes "the law" to what do you think he is referring? What does "setting aside" mean to you? What does Matt 5:18 mean? 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. To me it means that no one can add or take even the smallest law from the old covenant and void it until Jesus fulfills that law. I believe He did just that at Calvary and so did Paul.
Same old twisted junk. I'll untwist your tangled web and expose the deception of the same as time allows. You can of course believe whatever you wish, this will never of course make what you believe true. This is part of what the judgment of those who profess to be Christ's followers is all about beam. Many will be found to have used God's word to support lies. God will judge between you and I and all who have claimed to know truth, and preached and debated the same. It will be found at that time, that God's word has never been a thing for any to trifle with. May we all tread upon this holy ground, very carefully and with due respect of the self existing one who has established and preserved this testimony.
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
First of all Amo the 10 commandments were given to the Israelites, verse 7. Those commandments were never given to gentiles. Secondly you conveniently omitted the fact that in verse 9 the 10 commandments are said to be superseded by the Spirit which does not bring death. The Spirit brings righteousness. Verse 10 explains that the 10 commandments have no glory because the Spirit surpasses the 10's glory. Verse 11 tells us that the 10 that came with glory wer transitory. Transitory means temporary. The Spirit will be with us through eternity.
Let's get the facts straight, both ministries being referred to had glory. The glory of the former was superseded by the glory of the latter which was meant to last by the bringing in of righteousness. If you will read the account of the giving of the ten commandments by God to Israel you will understand that there is no denying the glory of God which attended the same. This not to mention the fading glory on Moses' face as well.
Your points are moot though. The ten commandments were not given as a means of obtaining righteousness, and have never been capable of producing such apart from inspiring God's own to keep them the only way possible, by the power of the indwelling Spirit of God. The commandments condemn the sinner, and point them to salvation in Christ alone. This is why the commandments were given to Israel first, with great power and glory, and afterwards they were given the instructions concerning the temple and sacrifices which all typified salvation in Christ alone the LAMB OF GOD. The commandments were never meant to be the power to produce righteousness or salvation. They are and have always been the standard of righteousness which condemns the sinner to either death for breaking them, or death by faith in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ unto salvation. Of course the ministry and power of the Spirit of God are meant to supersede the condemnation of the law. It is the exact purpose of the law to produce the longing of such through the inescapable condemnation they bring upon all. Which condemnation can be avoided only by salvation in Christ alone. It is the exact purpose of the power of the law to condemn, to be superseded by the power of Christ to save from that condemnation. This that the glory of the former might pass away in light of the glory of the latter unto salvation, as did the glory on Moses face which was by association in the presence of God, and not established by the power of the Spirit of God within.
Doing away with the ten commandments as the false gospel teaches, destroys this entire process. No law, no condemnation, no need of a Savior. False gospel. Again and again, and again beam, accepting the gospel does not do away with God's commandments it does away with the condemnation of such for the saved in Christ Jesus. The testimony of scripture and the Apostle Paul on this are crystal clear maintaining the standard of the ten commandments from cover to cover. Your false gospel simply refuses this truth and all scripture that declares it.
There were 9 commands that dealt with morality and one that dealt with ceremonial or ritual observance of a day. Nine commands about morality were just a drop in the bucket. Morality commands would reach into the hundreds. The greates command to love our fellow man isn't even part of the nine moral laws of the ten.
Misrepresentation and lies. Love is the fulfillment of the law, which embodies the principles of the law in action. The Sabbath was established at creation before there was ever a need of ceremonial or ritual observance of anything pertaining to salvation of fallen beings. The Sabbath commandment refers back to that exact time and place as the reason for its observance. God Himself separated His sabbath from the ceremonial sabbaths by declaring His personally by mouth and in written form, and then giving ceremonial sabbaths to be written by Moses and attached to the same. You simply refuse these distinctions according to your rejection of this testimony of scripture. It is necessary to the dictates of the false gospel which substitute the works of man made tradition, for resting in God's ability alone to sanctify the sinner. The two days of rest each representing one of the above mentioned. Which is why observing God's command is by faith in the scriptures alone, but observing mans command in place of God's includes forcing their day upon all through human legislation.
You quote 1Cor7:19 and I assume you are trying to tell us that commandments means the 10 commandments. Well the verse does not say that does it. No verse in all of the New Testament ever say ten commandments. If we didn't already know that Jesus fulfilled all the old covenant the verses you quote would have to mean every command that God has ever given to Israel and to the gentiles.
Yes I do. I do this because the scriptures themselves make this distinction which you deny when convenient to your false gospel. The New Testament addresses many of the laws apart from the ten commandments which you are referring to and plainly states that they are no more. At the same time in holds up the standard of the commandments of God to the very end of the book. You simply refuse these distinctions according to a need in maintaining the false gospel. Even 1 Cor 7:19 under examination makes this distinction which you refuse even though it is right in front of your face.
Was it not God who commanded circumcision? What sense does Pauls statement in the verse under examination make, if there is no difference between any laws or commandments identified in scripture? If circumcision no longer matters, but the commandments of God do, and circumcision is one of the commands of God being referred to, then what kind of confusion is Paul preaching. He is not preaching any confusion, you are through your support of a false gospel, you are denying the facts right in front of your face. You have been blinded to the truth in front of your face by your determination to accept what is false as the truth.
The civil and ceremonial laws of old covenant literal Israel are no more according to New Testament scripture itself. Why do you insist they are part of the commandments of God all are admonished to keep in the New Testament? Is it not because this is necessary to your false goepel which rejects the observance of one commandment only?
I have no problem with Paul telling us that the law was holy, just, and good, but Paul never sys we are under it. We can glean much from the law because it contains many commands about morality which are certainly included in the law of love. Even you know we are not under the ritual laws found in that same covenant. Gentiles never have been, so show us where He imposes them upon us now.
I have never contended anywhere that we are under the ceremonial laws of literal old covenant Israel. Neither are the saved under the condemnation of the ten commandments of God. This is the false claim of those who preach the false gospel and will make no separation between the laws given to the literal nation of Israel, and the ten commandments of God. This though scripture itself does make this separation and distinction.
Gentiles who choose to remain Gentiles are all under the condemnation of God's law. Only the saved in Christ who have become fellow citizens with the saints, children of Abraham by faith, and of the new covenant Israel of God are freed from the condemnation of God's law.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped,
and all the world may become guilty before God.All the world is guilty before God having broken His law. Those in Christ alone are no longer under the law. This is so, because the standard of the law still remains and will do so until this heaven ad earth pass away at Christ's second coming. We will either accept Christ's salvation from the just demands of the law, or we will die according to those demands. This would not be so of course, if God's law was no more.
You didn't address Gal 3:19. I would like to add another one of Paul's texts on the same subject Eph 2:14-15 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations.
When Paul writes "the law" to what do you think he is referring? What does "setting aside" mean to you? What does Matt 5:18 mean? 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. To me it means that no one can add or take even the smallest law from the old covenant and void it until Jesus fulfills that law. I believe He did just that at Calvary and so did Paul.
I will address your other verses as time allows. You may of course believe whatever you wish, but heaven and earth have not passed away. The bible tells us when they will, but it is not at Christ's first coming.
After Jesus said what He did in the verse you quoted He then went on in the same chapter to address two of the ten commandments of God, expounding upon their true and deeper meanings. This of course is highly suggestive that it was in fact the ten commandments he was referring to as well in the verses immediately preceding which you quoted. I understand of course your need to reject the same conclusion in order to support a false gospel which cannot allow for the same.
Amo:
the new covenant Israel of God are freed from the condemnation of God's law.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Quite the opposite!
"All" includes the New Covenant Israel of God; and Romans 3:19 states
"we know that what things soever the Law saith, it saith ... that
every mouth (all) may be stopped, and
all the world (every mouth) may become guilty before God."
Which means NONE "'
are freed from the condemnation of God's law'" and "that the Law has dominion over (all and every) man as long as he lives". Romans 7:1.
Amo, you are inconsistent!
Beam:
Why did Paul compare the Holy Spirit to the 10 commandments? Why did Paul write these things in such a powerful manner'?
Paul did not "'compare the Holy Spirit to the 10 commandments'" as though it or any Law(s) of God is are against the Spirit of God. You do, against Paul who says, "the Law is spiritual".
Why do you write these things in such a deceitful manner? To get rid of the Fourth the Sabbath Commandment. Paul never did anything comparable!
: Amo Sat Jan 05, 2019 - 15:10:35
Hi Amo, first of all thanks for taking the time to answer my posts. You certainly are a special person. Most just give me personal attack or off the wall comments. The Bible and our beliefs are serious, not only to our present life, but to our eternal life.
Let's get the facts straight, both ministries being referred to had glory.
Quite true. Of the ministry of the Holy Spirit Paul writes: 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
The glory of the former was superseded by the glory of the latter which was meant to last by the bringing in of righteousness. If you will read the account of the giving of the ten commandments by God to Israel you will understand that there is no denying the glory of God which attended the same. This not to mention the fading glory on Moses' face as well.
I agree.
Your points are moot though. The ten commandments were not given as a means of obtaining righteousness,
Did I mention righteousness? My point is that the covenant was never meant to be salvational. Ex 19:5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you[a] will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.'
Actually, if Israel had observed and obeyed the covenant they surely would have been a righteous people. The covenant was the way God would have had them live. It was the covenant's rules that should have been their guide.
This is why the commandments were given to Israel first, with great power and glory, and afterwards they were given the instructions concerning the temple and sacrifices which all typified salvation in Christ alone the LAMB OF GOD. The commandments were never meant to be the power to produce righteousness or salvation.
Thanks for emphasizing my point. The Sinai covenant was not about salvation.
They are and have always been the standard of righteousness which condemns the sinner to either death for breaking them, or death by faith in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ unto salvation.
Here is where we start to differ. You tell me the 10 commandments ARE the standard of righteousness and also were the standard. How could they have been the standard? They didn't even contain the greatest command to love God and to love our fellow man. There are hundreds of thou shalt nots and only eight in the 10 commandments. Their being the standard of righteousness in very much a misnomer. I do not know where the cliche came from, but it is very misleading and totally wrong. Then there is the writings of Paul in which you agree that the 10 have lost their glory to the surpassing glory of the Holy Spirit which was a gift of Jesus to every living soul and manifested at Pentecost.
Of course the ministry and power of the Spirit of God are meant to supersede the condemnation of the law. It is the exact purpose of the law to produce the longing of such through the inescapable condemnation they bring upon all. Which condemnation can be avoided only by salvation in Christ alone. It is the exact purpose of the power of the law to condemn, to be superseded by the power of Christ to save from that condemnation. This that the glory of the former might pass away in light of the glory of the latter unto salvation, as did the glory on Moses face which was by association in the presence of God, and not established by the power of the Spirit of God within.
I absolutely disagree with your statement. Your reference to the law means the 10 commandments. Paul wrote that the 10 commandments were temporary. Christians do not come under the condemnation of the 10 commandments and then saved by Christ's shed blood for those sins. Jesus forgives sinners who believe in Him as the Savior. Christians live to a much higher command than the 10 commandments. Our goal is to love others as Jesus loves us. The moral aspects of the nine commands are just a start for Christians. Israel's fourth command was a ritual command just as all of the special days by which God required them to live. Our new covenant has but one ritual command and that is communion.
Doing away with the ten commandments as the false gospel teaches, destroys this entire process. No law, no condemnation, no need of a Savior. False gospel. Again and again, and again beam, accepting the gospel does not do away with God's commandments it does away with the condemnation of such for the saved in Christ Jesus. The testimony of scripture and the Apostle Paul on this are crystal clear maintaining the standard of the ten commandments from cover to cover. Your false gospel simply refuses this truth and all scripture that declares it.
Is that what Paul wrote in 2Cor 3:7-11? What does
transitory mean, in the King James what does
done away mean? What does "not have any glory now" mean?
Doing away with law is chaos. Jesus didn't do away with law and I have never advocated I believe that. You are constantly misrepresenting me with lies. Jesus took away a system that only condemned and gave us a new covenant. You say new covenant, but you don't believe. You want to live, in part, under the defunct old covenant denying the fact that the new covenant is not about keeping days, paying tithe or eating only certain things.
Misrepresentation and lies. Love is the fulfillment of the law,
What law Amo? The law given to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Israel? Israel had 613 laws they were required to observe. If you are referring to the 10 commandments then you need to know there was nothing about love in any of them. They were all about duty to their God and to their fellow Jew. One could keep laws and not love one iota. Laws can be kept out of fear or duty. Your description of love is just another cliche that is and has always been wrong.
which embodies the principles of the law in action. The Sabbath was established at creation before there was ever a need of ceremonial or ritual observance of anything pertaining to salvation of fallen beings.
Thinking that is true and actually proving such a thing is two different things. God rested and made that day holy. He never mentioned succeeding days.
The Sabbath commandment refers back to that exact time and place as the reason for its observance.
Remember what I just gave you. There is no evidence that remember had anything to do with the past.
God Himself separated His sabbath from the ceremonial sabbaths by declaring His personally by mouth and in written form, and then giving ceremonial sabbaths to be written by Moses and attached to the same.
Holy is Holy no matter when the rule was given or how it was written. The Bible does not distinguish between the two.
You simply refuse these distinctions according to your rejection of this testimony of scripture.
I never indicated one way or the other that I can remember. It certainly does not make my case any plainer either way.
It is necessary to the dictates of the false gospel which substitute the works of man made tradition, for resting in God's ability alone to sanctify the sinner. The two days of rest each representing one of the above mentioned. Which is why observing God's command is by faith in the scriptures alone, but observing mans command in place of God's includes forcing their day upon all through human legislation.
Bologna Amo. Where there is no law there is no sin. The law of Sabbath observance is a defunct law and was given only to the nation of Israel.
Yes I do. I do this because the scriptures themselves make this distinction which you deny when convenient to your false gospel. The New Testament addresses many of the laws apart from the ten commandments which you are referring to and plainly states that they are no more. At the same time in holds up the standard of the commandments of God to the very end of the book. You simply refuse these distinctions according to a need in maintaining the false gospel. Even 1 Cor 7:19 under examination makes this distinction which you refuse even though it is right in front of your face.
If you proclaim that there is a 10 in front of commandments anyplace in any New Testament scripture it is because you personally have added to scripture. You have absolutely no authority to add a 10 anyplace. Commandments mean the new commandments Jesus gave new covenant Christians . It couldn't mean the 10 commandments because Paul wrote that they were transient or done away
Was it not God who commanded circumcision? What sense does Pauls statement in the verse under examination make, if there is no difference between any laws or commandments identified in scripture? If circumcision no longer matters, but the commandments of God do, and circumcision is one of the commands of God being referred to, then what kind of confusion is Paul preaching.
I suggest you take that up with Paul.
He is not preaching any confusion, you are through your support of a false gospel, you are denying the facts right in front of your face. You have been blinded to the truth in front of your face by your determination to accept what is false as the truth.
I only quote what scripture says. It says the 10 commandments are no longer anyone's guide. Our guide is the Holy Spirit. He is the Guide that will last.
The civil and ceremonial laws of old covenant literal Israel are no more according to New Testament scripture itself. Why do you insist they are part of the commandments of God all are admonished to keep in the New Testament? Is it not because this is necessary to your false goepel which rejects the observance of one commandment only?
Jesus said it, I quoted Jesus own words. Not one jot nor one tittle can be removed from the 613 laws of the old covenant until all is fulfilled. You do not believe all has been fulfilled yet you have removed thousands of jots and tittles picking and choosing the ones your prophet chose.
I have never contended anywhere that we are under the ceremonial laws of literal old covenant Israel.
Oh yes you have. Your church and you stand on the premise that we have to keep the ceremonial law of Sabbath keeping. If the law has yet to be fulfilled then the jot and tittle part remains and you are under the whole law. If Jesus fulfilled the law then we are not under any part of it. Fulfil means to bring to an end Amo.
Neither are the saved under the condemnation of the ten commandments of God.
No one is under the condemnation of the 10 because there are no 10 to be under. They (the ministry of death) ended at the Cross as per scripture.
This is the false claim of those who preach the false gospel and will make no separation between the laws given to the literal nation of Israel, and the ten commandments of God. This though scripture itself does make this separation and distinction.
Pure blather
Gentiles who choose to remain Gentiles are all under the condemnation of God's law.
God's law certainly is not the 10. They were transitory or done away as per the King James version.
Only the saved in Christ who have become fellow citizens with the saints, children of Abraham by faith, and of the new covenant Israel of God are freed from the condemnation of God's law.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
All the world is guilty before God having broken His law. Those in Christ alone are no longer under the law. This is so, because the standard of the law still remains and will do so until this heaven ad earth pass away at Christ's second coming. We will either accept Christ's salvation from the just demands of the law, or we will die according to those demands. This would not be so of course, if God's law was no more.
I will address your other verses as time allows. You may of course believe whatever you wish, but heaven and earth have not passed away. The bible tells us when they will, but it is not at Christ's first coming.
After Jesus said what He did in the verse you quoted He then went on in the same chapter to address two of the ten commandments of God, expounding upon their true and deeper meanings. This of course is highly suggestive that it was in fact the ten commandments he was referring to as well in the verses immediately preceding which you quoted. I understand of course your need to reject the same conclusion in order to support a false gospel which cannot allow for the same.
Bed time Amo. The law could not be the 613 laws of the old covenant. Jesus fulfilled those laws. Fulfil means to bring to an end. Nice try though. I appreciate the debate.
CO2 #149
The fact is that Paul and other New Testament writers have told us like in 2Cor 3 and Gal 3 that the old covenant law has been fulfilled and Christians are not under it.
Duplication after duplication of the same absolute nonsense lies! There's NO fact whatsoever in what YOU, LIE, that Paul "'
told us in 2Cor 3 and Gal 3 that the old covenant law has been fulfilled and Christians are not under it'". The whole Bible contains no "'
the old covenant law'". Neither does the whole New Testament have "'
the old covenant law'" which "'
has been fulfilled'".
Only fact in all the Word of God--contrary your declaration--is
that Christians are under the old covenant law which tells us MAN stays faithful to his own nature of Self for as long as he lives.
Whole threads of endless paragraphs of verbal rubbish JUST BECAUSE people like Beam (like all of us and every man) stand condemned under the single specific Fourth of the Ten Commandments and WILL NOT submit. Once a man submitted to the Law and admits the Law of GOD is right and he is wrong, there is hope for his predicament and a cure for his sickness. Otherwise he shall have to suffer under the condemnation of the Law of God for as long as he lives PLUS FOREVER AFTER. Because then he has not received the grace of Christ. Or do you think it's just the other way round? Even if you're right, that's how it is mate; no one of us is crossing the lake of fire in another boat.
Fulfil means to bring to an end.
Yes, only when Christ fulfilled. And when Christ fulfilled the Law, it meant He did not leave it nullified, but brought it up and elevated it to its Goal and Purpose, indeed "Christ the All in all fulfilling Fullness of God". That's why and that's how "when God raised Christ from the dead BY THE EXCEEDING GREATNESS OF HIS POWER, He RESTED Him at his own Right Hand His Heavenly Majesty ... and exalted Him", "I-AM-COME to magnify thy Law, o God", "LORD AND CHRIST".
And
only the Sabbath implying its Commandment out of the Ten receives MENTION "
when IN SABBATH'S FULLNESS being in the mid-afternoon daylight before the First Day of the week there was a great earthquake and the angel of the Lord from heaven descending with bright as lightning appearance CAST THE STONE FROM THE TOMB AWAY!" From now on the Sabbath shall be holy unto the LORD no longer because of cast away word-of-stone, but because of
RESURRECTED WORD OF DEED OF GOD. Then obediently the angel "
went and sat on it" ... even the angel, just imagine the heavenly creature, "sat"!
With this, I pray I may believe That Day the Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD the Seventh Day of the week BECAUSE OF CHRIST. Come on, who condemns me "of Sabbaths' Feast of Christ the Substance eating and drinking"? WHO?!
beam:
Fulfil means to bring to an end.
So you believe that John the Baptist was a willing co-conspirator with Jesus to bring all righteousness to an end?
Matthew 3:15But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him.
Boy, mention that Jesus fulfilled the law is like stepping on a ground bee's nest. Reading the truth of Jesus bringing the law to an end brings up the hackles. You just cannot stand to hear the truth. Gentiles never have been under the law.
Christians are not under the law.
beam:
Boy, mention that Jesus fulfilled the law is like stepping on a ground bee's nest.
To the best of my knowledge, all Adventists believe that Jesus fulfilled the law.
Romans 2:5-8
Because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
: Shubee Wed Jan 09, 2019 - 19:57:14
To the best of my knowledge, all Adventists believe that Jesus fulfilled the law.
On the one hand, SDA's teach that the law has changed - so the law must have been fulfilled. (Matt. 5:17)
On the other hand, SDA's also teach that the law will never change so the Law the law hasn't been fulfilled . (Matt. 5:17)
Beam:
Gentiles never have been under the law.
Christians are not under the law.
How the hell can we believe you. . . then no one ever has been under the Law and God is a tyrant no-god who has so far killed all despite they have not been under the Law.
: Shubee Wed Jan 09, 2019 - 19:57:14
To the best of my knowledge, all Adventists believe that Jesus fulfilled the law.
If all SDAs believe the law has been fulfilled why do they believe that if we do not keep the Sabbath of that fulfilled law that we will not inherit eternal life?
beam:
If all SDAs believe the law has been fulfilled...
Seventh-day Adventists and Seventh-day Millerites agree: The law has been fulfilled in the sense that Christ has filled it full. This is further clarified in Article 7 of The Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-day Millerites, Circa 2019 (http://everythingimportant.org/Millerites).
: Shubee Fri Jan 11, 2019 - 10:41:00
Seventh-day Adventists and Seventh-day Millerites agree: The law has been fulfilled in the sense that Christ has filled it full. This is further clarified in Article 7 of The Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-day Millerites, Circa 2019 (http://everythingimportant.org/Millerites).
But that is not what is written in the Holy Writ. Who gave you the authority to change the meaning of God's Word?
beam:
But that is not what is written in the Holy Writ. Who gave you the authority to change the meaning of God's Word?
Consider God's word quoted in
Reply #168 and your dismissal of it. Indisputably, your refusal to face God's Word is proof that you have some other meaning in mind to replace the actual text. In effect, you have changed the meaning of God's Word.
: Gerhard Ebersöhn Wed Jan 09, 2019 - 08:31:25
Whole threads of endless paragraphs of verbal rubbish JUST BECAUSE people like Beam (like all of us and every man) stand condemned under the single specific Fourth of the Ten Commandments and WILL NOT submit. Once a man submitted to the Law and admits the Law of GOD is right and he is wrong, there is hope for his predicament and a cure for his sickness. Otherwise he shall have to suffer under the condemnation of the Law of God for as long as he lives PLUS FOREVER AFTER. Because then he has not received the grace of Christ. Or do you think it's just the other way round? Even if you're right, that's how it is mate; no one of us is crossing the lake of fire in another boat.
True that. I've been debating pretty much the same arguments with slight variations for at least 30 years now. None of them really believe the law is done away with. They refuse to acknowledge the authority of just one of them, the rest is just the tangled web weaved to support this first or primary deception. They claim Christ came to do away with the law, we claim He came to establish it. So be it, God will judge between us.
: Amo Fri Jan 11, 2019 - 16:36:45
True that. I've been debating pretty much the same arguments with slight variations for at least 30 years now. None of them really believe the law is done away with. They refuse to acknowledge the authority of just one of them, the rest is just the tangled web weaved to support this first or primary deception. They claim Christ came to do away with the law, we claim He came to establish it. So be it, God will judge between us.
Amo, if the old covenant laws are still part of how man is supposed to live then please tell me and all who believe as I do why you do not do all that the old covenant laws demand. Remember Jesus said: Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Tell us how you get around Jesus words. Are you able to see the word "all"? Before you can delete any part of the law before all is fulfilled is certainly a sin if you believe as you do. You are not allowed to pick and choose.
Jesus didn't come to take away the law, He came to save Jews who were condemned by the law. Jesus proved to the World that the law could be kept. He fulfilled the law and fulfilled means to bring to an end.
Beam:
if the old covenant laws are still part of how man is supposed to live then please tell me and all who believe as I do why you do not do all that the old covenant laws demand.
Boasting boasting blurting burping bragging LIAR. What do YOU do any better than anyone else this side of his grave, he? BSer!
: Gerhard Ebersöhn Sat Jan 12, 2019 - 01:08:31
Boasting boasting blurting burping bragging LIAR. What do YOU do any better than anyone else this side of his grave, he? BSer!
I rest my case. Personal attacks when nothing logical can be found for an answer. I sure am getting a lot of personal attacks from you supposedly remnant Christian SDAs. Really nice people you are??? ??? ??? ???
: beam Fri Jan 11, 2019 - 18:53:34
Amo, if the old covenant laws are still part of how man is supposed to live then please tell me and all who believe as I do why you do not do all that the old covenant laws demand. Remember Jesus said: Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Tell us how you get around Jesus words. Are you able to see the word "all"? Before you can delete any part of the law before all is fulfilled is certainly a sin if you believe as you do. You are not allowed to pick and choose.
Jesus didn't come to take away the law, He came to save Jews who were condemned by the law. Jesus proved to the World that the law could be kept. He fulfilled the law and fulfilled means to bring to an end.
Yes, I understand that those who have rejected the truth cannot see it right in front of their faces.Their minds immediately twist all to their own deceived perceptions.
Mat 5:Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.First, the law being spoken of is the ten commandments, not all the laws given to Israel as has already been pointed out to you. You simply immediately deny and reject such because you have chosen a lie over the truth and must do so in support of the same. Jesus revealed this by immediately expounding upon or should I say exalting the law by giving example of the greater depth of two of the ten commandments of God right after stating the above. Again, you simply reject this according to your chosen false gospel.
Second, Jesus was not just talking about fulfilling the law in the above, but also the prophets or prophecy as verse five clearly points out. The first coming of Jesus Christ did not in any way shape or form completely fulfill the prophecies of the old testament. Anyone therefore who "shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." That would be you beam.
The statement quoted itself is a prophecy given by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, to be fulfilled one way or the other by all from that time forward. If you had not already chosen to believe a lie, you would plainly see that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ did not establish such truth as He did in the scriptures under observation, just to nullify them a couple of years later by His death. Even the favorite apostle of the false gospel proponents, Paul, testifies that Jesus came to establish the law, not do away with it. He did away with its condemnation upon the saved, not its authority. If the authority of the law is no more, then all are already saved and there is no need of a savior any longer.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Faith does not do away with the law, it establishes the law. The whole reason we need salvation in Christ Jesus is because the authority of God's law still stands. Go to, preach salvation, but salvation from what? Certainly not sin, apparently. Your false gospel does not allow for it.
1 Joh 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Beam:
I rest my case. Personal attacks when nothing logical can be found for an answer. I sure am getting a lot of personal attacks from you supposedly remnant Christian SDAs. Really nice people you are??? ??? ??? ???
I am no "'remnant Christian SDA'" or one of the "'nice people'" we both come from. Only difference is you're still one. I'm the baddy, the really bad one. Because unlike you, I use the Sword of God's Word to kill arrogance and arrogant people. And every time I see another head rolls, I say, Good riddance.
Victory to Truth!
Amo
For what my opinion might be worth to anyone; to you, most probably, sultsch. As I prefer it. Agreement with me almost always shows I'm not understood; applause always shows I'm misunderstood. Insult shows I'm understood but not the implication;
being ignored proves the implication is understood as well.Being a SDA, you by now understand the implication Christ's Resurrection has for The Lord's Day, "SABBATH - REST-DAY - OF THE LORD YOUR GOD".
Three things together are going to torment your conscience for the rest of your life,
That you know and understand the relationship between the
Sabbath and the Law;
That you know and understand the relationship between the
Sabbath and Redemption;
And that you know and understand the relationship between
Redemption and Christ's Resurrection...
but refuses to know or understand the relationship between his Resurrection and The Lord's Day "SABBATH - REST-DAY - OF THE LORD GOD" and "THE POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION"!
I hope and wish and pray the Truth will haunt you and grant you no rest until you yielded.
: Amo Sat Jan 12, 2019 - 16:07:03
Yes, I understand that those who have rejected the truth cannot see it right in front of their faces.Their minds immediately twist all to their own deceived perceptions.
Thanks Amo for your reply. I can see that you have believed a lie and I will explain that in my response below.
Mat 5:Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
First, the law being spoken of is the ten commandments,
You gave no proof that Jesus was referring to just the 10 commandments. The law that Jesus lived under were 613 rules and included the 10 commandments. They lived under all of the old covenant not just part of it. To try to prove He was just referring to the 10 is ludicrous and would be laughed at if you presented that to scholars of scripture.
not all the laws given to Israel as has already been pointed out to you.
Sorry, I must have missed your point or maybe you really didn't ever point it out because I would have jumped on answering that false claim.
You simply immediately deny and reject such because you have chosen a lie over the truth and must do so in support of the same.
You bet I do because it bears no truth, if it did you would have used scripture to prove your point.
Jesus revealed this by immediately expounding upon or should I say exalting the law by giving example of the greater depth of two of the ten commandments of God right after stating the above. Again, you simply reject this according to your chosen false gospel.
Nope, that doesn't prove one thing. In fact it proves just the opposite which you should have caught before making that claim. Where did divorce, vows, revenge and love your enemies come from Amo? Please don't try to woof me with untruths. I was not born yesterday my friend. Those four things came from the book of the law, not the 10 commandments. So, if you think that paragraph is proof of anything said in the paragraph we are debating it would be one for me, not you.
Second, Jesus was not just talking about fulfilling the law in the above, but also the prophets or prophecy as verse five clearly points out.
Quite true Amo. The prophets prophesied about the coming of Jesus as Messiah and Jesus fulfilled that prophesy.
The first coming of Jesus Christ did not in any way shape or form completely fulfill the prophecies of the old testament.
Quite true, but as I wrote He did fulfil the ones about Him
Anyone therefore who "shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." That would be you beam.
Notice that He is only referring to commandments and He didn't specify only 10 of them. Remember there were 613 commandments.
The statement quoted itself is a prophecy given by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, to be fulfilled one way or the other by all from that time forward.
What do you mean "by all"? Did not Jesus fulfil everything He came to do? What did He leave out? He came to save lost man. He came to be Messiah for all mankind. He did what prophecy said He would.
If you had not already chosen to believe a lie, you would plainly see that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ did not establish such truth as He did in the scriptures under observation, just to nullify them a couple of years later by His death.
Jesus lived under the old covenant law. It was not His purpose to change the old covenant laws while living on Earth. His purpose was to die for the sins of all of His children on Earth, past, present, and future. The old covenant was not one of salvation. Jesus introduced the new covenant, the one that says if we believe in Him was will have everlasting life. His ministry was all about love and He even introduced the New Commandment, the one that tells us to love others as He loves us. There is nothing greater than to give our lives for others.
Even the favorite apostle of the false gospel proponents, Paul, testifies that Jesus came to establish the law, not do away with it. He did away with its condemnation upon the saved, not its authority. If the authority of the law is no more, then all are already saved and there is no need of a savior any longer.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
HMMM! Will finish this when I get back from worshipping Jesus and fellowshipping with my fellow believing Christians.
Beam:
You gave no proof that Jesus was referring to just the 10 commandments. The law that Jesus lived under were 613 rules and included the 10 commandments. They lived under all of the old covenant not just part of it. To try to prove He was just referring to the 10 is ludicrous and would be laughed at if you presented that to scholars of scripture.
Like Beam, THE BIG scholar of scripture ... what a farce.
Present the names of the "'scholars of scripture'", Christian, who '
refer' to "'
613 rules (of) the law Jesus lived under'", you ludicrous joke -- no, you proud know-nothing useless swollen head!
Nope, that doesn't prove one thing. In fact it proves just the opposite which you should have caught before making that claim. Where did divorce, vows, revenge and love your enemies come from Amo? Please don't try to woof me with untruths. I was not born yesterday my friend. Those four things came from the book of the law, not the 10 commandments. So, if you think that paragraph is proof of anything said in the paragraph we are debating it would be one for me, not you.
In South Africa, my country, people pronounce the word 'people', like 'poo-pol' for the winners.
Remainder of Amo's post.29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Faith does not do away with the law, it establishes the law. The whole reason we need salvation in Christ Jesus is because the authority of God's law still stands. Go to, preach salvation, but salvation from what? Certainly not sin, apparently. Your false gospel does not allow for it.
Every commandment in the covenant was good. God had a reason for each command and there is certainly much to be gleaned from the law. The law condemned the Israelites because did not observe it by faith. Please do not blame me for what Paul wrote. Gal 3:19 2Cor3:7-11 Eph 2:
14 For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us.
[/size] [/size]15 He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations.1 Joh 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Just to let you know that John explains what law we are under in the closing verses of the chapter. 1jn3:10-24
But that is not what is written in the Holy Writ. Who gave you the authority to change the meaning of God's Word?
The perfect exemplar of Beam authority and authenticity: VOID NOTHING OF VOID NOTHING. Pathetic! Are you not ashamed by posting such crap for anyone to see as your very bombastic best?!
beam -
You gave no proof that Jesus was referring to just the 10 commandments. The law that Jesus lived under were 613 rules and included the 10 commandments. They lived under all of the old covenant not just part of it. To try to prove He was just referring to the 10 is ludicrous and would be laughed at if you presented that to scholars of scripture.
Jesus did not come to fulfill the civil laws of the literal nation of Israel, many of which have no salvific or spiritual implications. Apart from this, He and the apostles plainly taught that there would be and were major changes concerning the ceremonial laws being fulfilled in our Lord and Savior. They were not simply done away with, but rather established in Christ Jesus, just as the ten commandments are. If you want to insist that Jesus was talking about 613 laws, including those specifically pointed out by Jesus and the apostles as having changed, then you should be keeping all of them. That is your claim not mine.
I can an do accept that Jesus Christ came to fulfill all the law and the prophets just as He testified, that fulfillment did bring about changes, properly understanding what those changes were includes properly dividing the word of God in regards to the same. This is a large part of what the NT is all about. The facts remain, He conclusively stated that He did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it. That fulfillment included changes to the ceremonial laws clearly explained by Christ and the apostles. The commandments of God however, are held up as the continuous standard up to the last book ad chapter of the bible.
Perhaps the following quotes form various commentaries can help you with this issue. Several of them contradict your above statement that all would laugh at the idea that Jesus was referring mainly to the moral law or ten commandments in the verses under examination. Even those addressing the entire law, do not share your perspective. All emphasis in the following quotes is mine.
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/barnes/matthew/5.htm
Barns' Notes
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MT 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
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The laws of the Jews are commonly divided into moral, ceremonial, and judicial. The moral laws are such as grow out of the nature of things, and which cannot, therefore, be changed - such as the duty of loving God and his creatures. These cannot be abolished, as it can never be made right to hate God, or to hate our fellow-men. Of this kind are the ten commandments, and these our Saviour has neither abolished nor superseded. The ceremonial laws are such as are appointed to meet certain states of society, or to regulate the religious rites and ceremonies of a people. These can be changed when circumstances are changed, and yet the moral law be untouched. A general in an army may command his soldiers to appear sometimes in a red coat and sometimes in blue or in yellow. This would be a ceremonial law, and might be changed as he pleased. The duty of obeying him, and of being faithful to his country, could not be changed.
This is a moral law. A parent might permit his children to have 50 different dresses at different times, and love them equally in all. The dress is a mere matter of ceremony, and may be changed. The child, in all these garments, is bound to love and obey his father. This is a moral law, and cannot be changed. So the laws of the Jews. Those designed to regulate mere matters of ceremony and rites of worship might be changed. Those requiring love and obedience to God and love to people could not be changed, and Christ did not attempt it, Matthew 19:19; Matthew 22:37-39; Luke 10:27; Romans 13:9. A third species of law was the judicial, or those laws regulating courts of justice which are contained in the Old Testament. These were of the nature of the ceremonial law, and might also be changed at pleasure. The judicial law of the Hebrews was adapted to their own civil society. When the form of their polity was changed this was of course no longer binding. The ceremonial law was fulfilled by the coming of Christ: the shadow was lost in the substance, and ceased to be binding. The moral law was confirmed and unchanged.
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/benson/matthew/5.htm
Benson Commentary
Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
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Shall in no wise pass from, the law — Or, from the prophets, till all be fulfilled — Till all things which the law requires, or the prophets foretel, shall be effected. This seems to be the literal translation of the original words, εως αν παντα γενηται: for the law has its effect when its sanctions are executed, as well as when its precepts are obeyed. And the predictions of the prophets have their proper effect and confirmation, when they are accomplished. Some, however, understand the words as meaning, till the end, or, consummation of all things shall come, or, till the heavens and the earth shall pass away, or be destroyed. The meaning of our Lord's words, according to this interpretation, is, that there is nothing in the universe so stable as the truths contained in the moral law, and nothing so certain as the fulfilment of the predictions of the prophets: the heavens may fall, and the whole frame of nature be unhinged, nay, every part of it may be dissolved; but the rules of righteousness, and the declarations of the divine word, with their sanctions, shall remain immutable and eternal: for the word of the Lord endureth for ever, 1 Peter 1:25. Our Lord therefore proceeds, in the two next verses, to command his disciples, on the severest penalties, to enforce, both by their doctrine and example, the strict observation of all the moral precepts contained in the sacred writings, and that in their utmost extent.
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/calvin/matthew/5.htm
Calvin's Commentaries
Mt 5:17-19
17.............................................................
By these words he is so far from departing from the former covenant, that, on the contrary, he declares, that it will be confirmed and ratified, when it shall be succeeded by the new. This is also the meaning of Christ's words, when he says, that he came to fulfill the law: for he actually fulfilled it, by quickening, with his Spirit, the dead letter, and then exhibiting, in reality, what had hitherto appeared only in figures.
With respect to doctrine, we must not imagine that the coming of Christ has freed us from the authority of the law: for it is the eternal rule of a devout and holy life, and must, therefore, be as unchangeable, as the justice of God, which it embraced, is constant and uniform. With respect to ceremonies, there is some appearance of a change having taken place; but it was only the use of them that was abolished, for their meaning was more fully confirmed. The coming of Christ has taken nothing away even from ceremonies, but, on the contrary, confirms them by exhibiting the truth of shadows: for, when we see their full effect, we acknowledge that they are not vain or useless. Let us therefore learn to maintain inviolable this sacred tie between the law and the Gospel, which many improperly attempt to break. For it contributes not a little to confirm the authority of the Gospel, when we learn, that it is nothing else than a fulfillment of the law; so that both, with one consent, declare God to be their Author.
19. Whoever then shall break Christ here speaks expressly of the commandments of life, or the ten words, which all the children of God ought to take as the rule of their life. He therefore declares, that they are false and deceitful teachers, who do not restrain their disciples within obedience to the law, and that they are unworthy to occupy a place in the Church, who weaken, in the slightest degree, the authority of the law; and, on the other hand, that they are honest and faithful ministers of God, who recommend, both by word and by example, the keeping of the law. The least commandments is an expression used in accommodation to the judgment of men: for though they have not all the same weight, (but, when they are compared together, some are less than others,) yet we are not at liberty to think any thing small, on which the heavenly Legislator has been pleased to issue a command. For what sacrilege is it to treat contemptuously any thing which has proceeded from his sacred mouth? This is to sink his majesty to the rank of creatures. Accordingly, when our Lord calls them little commandments, it is a sort of concession. He shall be called the least This is an allusion to what he had just said about the commandments: but the meaning is obvious. Those who shall pour contempt on the doctrine of the law, or on a single syllable of it, will be rejected as the lowest of men. [384]
The kingdom of heaven means the renovation of the Church, or the prosperous condition of the Church, such as was then beginning to appear by the preaching of the Gospel. In this sense, Christ tells us, that "he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than John," (Luke 7:28.) The meaning of that phrase is, that God, restoring the world by the hand of his Son, has completely established his kingdom. Christ declares that, when his Church shall have been renewed, no teachers must be admitted to it, but those who are faithful expounders of the law, and who labor to maintain its doctrine entire. But it is asked, were not ceremonies among the commandments of God, the least of which we are now required to observe? I answer, We must look to the design and object of the Legislator. God enjoined ceremonies, that their outward use might be temporal, and their meaning eternal. That man does not break ceremonies, who omits what is shadowy, but retains their effect. But if Christ banishes from his kingdom all who accustom men to any contempt of the law how monstrous must be their stupidity, who are not ashamed to remit, by a sacrilegious indulgence, what God strictly demands, and, under the pretense of venial sin, to overthrow the righteousness of the law. [385] Again, we must observe the description he gives of good and holy teachers: that not only by words, but chiefly by the example of life, they exhort [386] men to keep the law.
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/ellicott/matthew/5.htm
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
(19) Shall break one of these least commandments.—The words seem at first to imply that even the ceremonial law was to be binding in its full extent upon Christ's disciples. The usage of the time, however, confined the word to the moral laws of God (as in Ecclesiasticus 32:23-24), and throughout the New Testament it is never used in any other sense, with the possible exception of Hebrews 7:5; Hebrews 7:16 (comp. especially Romans 13:9; 1Corinthians 7:19). And the context, which proceeds at once to deal with moral laws and does not touch on ceremonial, is in accordance with this meaning. The "least commandments," then, are those which seemed trivial, yet were really great—the control of thoughts, desires, words, as compared with the apparently greater commands that dealt with acts. The reference to "teaching" shows that our Lord was speaking to His disciples, as the future instructors of mankind, and the obvious import of His words is that they were to raise, not lower, the standard of righteousness which had been recognised previously.
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gsb/matthew/5.htm
Geneva Study Bible
Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
{3} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but {g} to fulfil.
(3) Christ did not come to bring any new way of righteousness and salvation into the world, but indeed to fulfil that which was shadowed by the figures of the Law, by delivering men through grace from the curse of the Law: and moreover to teach the true use of obedience which the Law appointed, and to engrave in our hearts the power for obedience.
(g) That the prophecies may be accomplished.
Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
{4} Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the {h} least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
(4) He begins with the true expounding of the Law, and sets it against the old (but yet false) teachings of the scribes: He is in no way abolishing the least commandment of his Father.
(h) He shall have no place in the Church.
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gill/matthew/5.htm
Gill's Exposition
Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets,.... From verse 3 to the 10th inclusive, our Lord seems chiefly to respect the whole body of his true disciples and followers; from thence, to the 16th inclusive, he addresses the disciples, whom he had called to be ministers of the word; and in this "verse", to the end of his discourse, he applies himself to the whole multitude in general; many of whom might be ready to imagine, that by the light of the Gospel, he was giving his disciples instructions to spread in the world, he was going to set aside, as useless, the law of Moses, or the prophets, the interpreters of it, and commentators upon it. Christ knew the thoughts of their hearts, that they had taken up such prejudices in their minds against him; wherefore he says, "think not"; he was sensible what objections they were forming, and what an improvement they would make of them against his being the Messiah, and therefore prevents them, saying,
I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. By "the law" is meant the moral law, as appears from the whole discourse following: this he came not to "destroy", or loose men's obligations to, as a rule of walk and conversation, but "to fulfil" it; which he did doctrinally, by setting it forth fully, and giving the true sense and meaning of it; and practically, by yielding perfect obedience to all its commands, whereby he became "the end", the fulfilling end of it. By "the prophets" are meant the writings of the prophets, in which they illustrated and explained the law of Moses; urged the duties of it; encouraged men thereunto by promises; and directed the people to the Messiah, and to an expectation of the blessings of grace by him: all which explanations, promises, and prophecies, were so far from being made void by Christ, that they receive their full accomplishment in him. The Jews (t) pretend that these words of Christ are contrary to the religion and faith of his followers, who assert, that the law of Moses is abolished; which is easily refuted, by observing the exact agreement between Christ and the Apostle Paul, Romans 3:31 and whenever he, or any other of the apostles, speaks of the abrogation of the law, it is to be understood of the ceremonial law, which in course ceased by being fulfilled; or if of the moral law, not of the matter, but of the ministry of it. This passage of Christ is cited in the Talmud (u), after this manner:
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/jfb/matthew/5.htm
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mt 5:17-48. Identity of These Principles with Those of the Ancient Economy; in Contrast with the Reigning Traditional Teaching.
Exposition of Principles (Mt 5:17-20).
17. Think not that I am come—that I came.
to destroy the law, or the prophets—that is, "the authority and principles of the Old Testament." (On the phrase, see Mt 7:12; 22:40; Lu 16:16; Ac 13:15). This general way of taking the phrase is much better than understanding "the law" and "the prophets" separately, and inquiring, as many good critics do, in what sense our Lord could be supposed to meditate the subversion of each. To the various classes of His hearers, who might view such supposed abrogation of the law and the prophets with very different feelings, our Lord's announcement would, in effect, be such as this—"Ye who tremble at the word of the Lord, fear not that I am going to sweep the foundation from under your feet: Ye restless and revolutionary spirits, hope not that I am going to head any revolutionary movement: And ye who hypocritically affect great reverence for the law and the prophets, pretend not to find anything in My teaching derogatory to God's living oracles."
I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil—Not to subvert, abrogate, or annul, but to establish the law and the prophets—to unfold them, to embody them in living form, and to enshrine them in the reverence, affection, and character of men, am I come.
Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
18. For verily I say unto you—Here, for the first time, does that august expression occur in our Lord's recorded teaching, with which we have grown so familiar as hardly to reflect on its full import. It is the expression manifestly, of supreme legislative authority; and as the subject in connection with which it is uttered is the Moral Law, no higher claim to an authority strictly divine could be advanced. For when we observe how jealously Jehovah asserts it as His exclusive prerogative to give law to men (Le 18:1-5; 19:37; 26:1-4, 13-16, &c.), such language as this of our Lord will appear totally unsuitable, and indeed abhorrent, from any creature lips. When the Baptist's words—"I say unto you" (Mt 3:9)—are compared with those of his Master here, the difference of the two cases will be at once apparent.
Till heaven and earth pass—Though even the Old Testament announces the ultimate "perdition of the heavens and the earth," in contrast with the immutability of Jehovah (Ps 102:24-27), the prevalent representation of the heavens and the earth in Scripture, when employed as a popular figure, is that of their stability (Ps 119:89-91; Ec 1:4; Jer 33:25, 26). It is the enduring stability, then, of the great truths and principles, moral and spiritual, of the Old Testament revelation which our Lord thus expresses.
one jot—the smallest of the Hebrew letters.
one tittle—one of those little strokes by which alone some of the Hebrew letters are distinguished from others like them.
shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled—The meaning is that "not so much as the smallest loss of authority or vitality shall ever come over the law." The expression, "till all be fulfilled," is much the same in meaning as "it shall be had in undiminished and enduring honor, from its greatest to its least requirements." Again, this general way of viewing our Lord's words here seems far preferable to that doctrinal understanding of them which would require us to determine the different kinds of "fulfilment" which the moral and the ceremonial parts of it were to have.
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/kelly/matthew/5.htm
William Kelly Major Works Commentary
In the portion that follows we enter upon a most important subject. If there was this new kind of blessedness, so foreign to the thoughts of Israel after the flesh, what was the relation of the law to Christ's doctrine and the new state of things about to be introduced? Did not the law come from God through Moses? If Christ brought in that which was so unexpected, even by the disciples, what would be the bearing of this truth upon that which they had previously received through God's inspired servants, and for which they had His own authority? Weaken the authority of the law, and it is clear that you destroy the foundation on which the gospel rests; for the law was of God as certainly as the gospel. Hence came in a most weighty question, especially for an Israelite: what was the bearing of the doctrine of Christ, respecting the kingdom of heaven, upon the precepts of the law? The Lord opens this subject (vers. 17-48) with these words: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets." They might have thought so from the fact of His having introduced something not mentioned in either; but "Think not," He says, "that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." I take this word "fulfil" in its largest sense. In His own person the Lord fulfilled the law and the prophets, in His own ways, in righteous subjection and obedience. His life here below exhibited its beauty for the first time without flaw. His death was the most solemn sanction which the law ever could receive, because the curse that it pronounced upon the guilty, the Saviour took upon Himself. There was nothing the Saviour would not undergo, rather than God should have dishonour. But our Lord's words warrant, I think, a further application. There is an expansion of the law, or δικαίωμα (righteous requirement), giving to its moral element the largest scope, so that all which was honouring to God in it should be brought out in its fullest power and extent. The light of heaven was now let fall upon the law, and the law interpreted, not by weak, failing men, but by One who had no reason to evade one jot of its requirements; whose heart, full of love, thought only of the honour and the will of God; whose zeal for His Father's house consumed Him, and who restored that which He took not away. Who but He could expound the law thus - not as the scribes, but in the heavenly light? For the commandment of God is exceeding broad, whether we look at its making an end of all perfection in man, or the sum of it in Christ.
Far from annulling the law, the Lord, on the contrary, illustrated it more brightly than ever, and gave it a spiritual application that man was entirely unprepared for before He came. And this is what the Lord proceeds to do in the wonderful discourse that follows. After having said, "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled," He adds, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven" (vers. 18-20). Our Lord is going to expand the great moral principles of the law into commandments that flow from Himself, and not merely from Moses, and shows that this would be the great thing whereby persons would be tested. It would no longer be a question of the ten words spoken on Sinai merely; but, while recognizing their full value, He was about to open out the mind of God in a way so much deeper than had ever been thought of before that this would henceforth be the great test.
Hence He says, when referring to the practical use of these commandments of His, "Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven" - an expression that has not the smallest reference to justification, but to the practical appreciation of and walking in the right relations of the believer toward God and toward men. The righteousness spoken of here is entirely of a practical kind. This may strike many persons sharply, perhaps. They may be somewhat perplexed to understand how practical righteousness is made to be the means of entering into the kingdom of heaven. But, let me repeat, the sermon on the mount never shows us how a sinner is to be saved. If there were the smallest allusion to practical righteousness where a sinner's justification is concerned, there would be ground to be startled; but there can be none whatever for the saint who understands and is subject to God's will. God insists upon godliness in His people. ,Without holiness no man shall seethe Lord." There can be no question that the Lord shows in John 15 that the unfruitful branches must be cut off, and that, just as the withered branches of the natural vine are cast into the fire to be burned, so fruitless professors of the name of Christ can look for no better portion.
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/lange/matthew/5.htm
Lange Commentary on the Holy Scriptures
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But to fulfil, ἀλλὰ πληρῶσαι.—The expression is differently interpreted, as meaning: 1. actually to fulfil (Elsner, Wolf, Bleek, and others); 2. to complete doctrinally, = τελειῶσαι, to interpret more fully, to perfect, i.e., to bring out its spiritual meaning (Lightfoot, Hammond, etc.); 3. combining the two views: to make perfect as doctrine, and to exhibit perfectly in the life. In adopting the latter interpretation, we must keep in mind that this πλήρωσις is not to be understood as implying that an imperfect revelation was to be completed, but that a preliminary and typical revelation was to be presented in all its fulness, and completely realized by word and deed. [Dr. Wordsworth: "Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets by obedience, by accomplishment of types, ceremonies, rites, and prophecies, and by explaining, spiritualizing, elevating, enlarging, and perfecting the moral law, by writing it on the heart, and by giving grace to obey it, as well as an example of obedience, by taking away its curse; and by the doctrine of free justification by faith in Himself, which the law prefigured and anticipated, but could not give." Augustine: "Ante Christi adventum lex jubebat, non juvabat; post, et jubet et juvat." Maldonatus: "Abolet non dissolvendo sed absolvendo, non delendo sed perficiendo."—P. S.]
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/mhc/matthew/5.htm
Matthew Henry's Commentary
Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:17-20 Let none suppose that Christ allows his people to trifle with any commands of God's holy law. No sinner partakes of Christ's justifying righteousness, till he repents of his evil deeds. The mercy revealed in the gospel leads the believer to still deeper self-abhorrence. The law is the Christian's rule of duty, and he delights therein. If a man, pretending to be Christ's disciple, encourages himself in any allowed disobedience to the holy law of God, or teaches others to do the same, whatever his station or reputation among men may be, he can be no true disciple. Christ's righteousness, imputed to us by faith alone, is needed by every one that enters the kingdom of grace or of glory; but the new creation of the heart to holiness, produces a thorough change in a man's temper and conduct.
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/mhcw/matthew/5.htm
Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible
Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Verses 17-20
Those to whom Christ preached, and for whose use he gave these instructions to his disciples, were such as in their religion had an eye, 1. To the scriptures of the Old Testament as their rule, and therein Christ here shows them they were in the right: 2. To the scribes and the Pharisees as their example, and therein Christ here shows them they were in the wrong; for,
I. The rule which Christ came to establish exactly agreed with the scriptures of the Old Testament, here called the law and the prophets. The prophets were commentators upon the law, and both together made up that rule of faith and practice which Christ found upon the throne in the Jewish church, and here he keeps it on the throne.
He protests against the thought of cancelling and weakening the Old Testament; Think not that I am come to destroy the law and the prophets. (1.) "Let not the pious Jews, who have an affection for the law and the prophets, fear that I come to destroy them." Let them be not prejudiced against Christ and his doctrine, from a jealousy that this kingdom he came to set up, would derogate from the honour of the scriptures, which they had embraced as coming from God, and of which they had experienced the power and purity; no, let them be satisfied that Christ has no ill design upon the law and the prophets. "Let not the profane Jews, who have a disaffection to the law and the prophets, and are weary of that yoke, hope that I am come to destroy them." Let not carnal libertines imagine that the Messiah is come to discharge them from the obligation of divine precepts and yet to secure to them divine promises, to make the happy and yet to give them leave to live as they list. Christ commands nothing now which was forbidden either by the law of nature or the moral law, nor forbids any thing which those laws had enjoined; it is a great mistake to think he does, and he here takes care to rectify the mistake; I am not come to destroy. The Saviour of souls is the destroyer of nothing but the works of the devil, of nothing that comes from God, much less of those excellent dictates which we have from Moses and the prophets. No, he came to fulfil them. That is, [1.] To obey the commands of the law, for he was made under the law, Gal. 4:4. He in all respects yielded obedience to the law, honoured his parents, sanctified the sabbath, prayed, gave alms, and did that which never any one else did, obeyed perfectly, and never broke the law in any thing. [2.] To make good the promises of the law, and the predictions of the prophets, which did all bear witness to him. The covenant of grace is, for substance, the same now that it was then, and Christ the Mediator of it. [3.] To answer the types of the law; thus (as bishop Tillotson expresses it), he did not make void, but make good, the ceremonial law, and manifested himself to be the Substance of all those shadows. [4.] To fill up the defects of it, and so to complete and perfect it. Thus the word pleµroµsai properly signifies. If we consider the law as a vessel that had some water in it before, he did not come to pour out the water, but to fill the vessel up to the brim; or, as a picture that is first rough-drawn, displays some outlines only of the piece intended, which are afterwards filled up; so Christ made an improvement of the law and the prophets by his additions and explications. [5.] To carry on the same design; the Christian institutes are so far from thwarting and contradicting that which was the main design of the Jewish religion, that they promote it to the highest degree. The gospel is the time of reformation (Heb. 9:10), not the repeal of the law, but the amendment of it, and, consequently, its establishment.
2. He asserts the perpetuity of it; that not only he designed not the abrogation of it, but that it never should be abrogated (v. 18); "Verily I say unto you, I, the Amen, the faithful Witness, solemnly declare it, that till heaven and earth pass, when time shall be no more, and the unchangeable state of recompences shall supersede all laws, one jot, or one tittle, the least and most minute circumstance, shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled;" for what is it that God is doing in all the operations both of providence and grace, but fulfilling the scripture? Heaven and earth shall come together, and all the fulness thereof be wrapped up in ruin and confusion, rather than any word of God shall fall to the ground, or be in vain. The word of the Lord endures for ever, both that of the law, and that of the gospel. Observe, The care of God concerning his law extends itself even to those things that seem to be of least account in it, the iotas and the tittles; for whatever belongs to God, and bears his stamp, be it ever so little, shall be preserved. The laws of men are conscious to themselves of so much imperfection, that they allow it for a maxim, Apices juris non sunt jura—The extreme points of the law are not the law, but God will stand by and maintain every iota and every tittle of his law.
3. He gives it in charge to his disciples, carefully to preserve the law, and shows them the danger of the neglect and contempt of it (v. 19); Whosoever therefore shall break one of the least commandments of the law of Moses, much more any of the greater, as the Pharisees did, who neglected the weightier matters of the law, and shall teach men so as they did, who made void the commandment of God with their traditions (ch. 15:3), he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. Though the Pharisees be cried up for such teachers as should be, they shall not be employed as teachers in Christ's kingdom; but whosoever shall do and teach them, as Christ's disciples would, and thereby prove themselves better friends to the Old Testament than the Pharisees were, they, though despised by men, shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Note, (1.) Among the commands of God there are some less than others; none absolutely little, but comparatively so. The Jews reckon the least of the commandments of the law to be that of the bird's nest (Deu. 22:6, 7); yet even that had a significance and an intention very great and considerable. (2.) It is a dangerous thing, in doctrine or practice, to disannul the least of God's commands; to break them, that is, to go about either to contract the extent, or weaken the obligation of them; whoever does so, will find it is at his peril. Thus to vacate any of the ten commandments, is too bold a stroke for the jealous God to pass by. it is something more than transgressing the law, it is making void the law, Ps. 119:126. (3.) That the further such corruptions as they spread, the worse they are. It is impudence enough to break the command, but is a greater degree of it to teach men so. This plainly refers to those who at this time sat in Moses' seat, and by their comments corrupted and perverted the text. Opinions that tend to the destruction of serious godliness and the vitals of religion, by corrupt glosses on the scripture, are bad when they are held, but worse when they are propagated and taught, as the word of God. He that does so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven, in the kingdom of glory; he shall never come thither, but be eternally excluded; or, rather, in the kingdom of the gospel-church. He is so far from deserving the dignity of a teacher in it, that he shall not so much as be accounted a member of it. The prophet that teaches these lies shall be the tail in that kingdom (Isa. 9:15); when truth shall appear in its own evidence, such corrupt teachers, though cried up as the Pharisees, shall be of no account with the wise and good. Nothing makes ministers more contemptible and base than corrupting the law, Mal. 2:8, 11. Those who extenuate and encourage sin, and discountenance and put contempt upon strictness in religion and serious devotion, are the dregs of the church. But, on the other hand, Those are truly honourable, and of great account in the church of Christ, who lay out themselves by their life and doctrine to promote the purity and strictness of practical religion; who both do and teach that which is good; for those who do not as they teach, pull down with one hand what they build up with the other, and give themselves the lie, and tempt men to think that all religion is a delusion; but those who speak from experience, who live up to what they preach, are truly great; they honour God, and God will honour them (1 Sa. 2:30), and hereafter they shall shine as the stars in the kingdom of our Father.
II. The righteousness which Christ came to establish by this rule, must exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, v. 20. This was strange doctrine to those who looked upon the scribes and Pharisees as having arrived at the highest pitch of religion. The scribes were the most noted teachers of the law, and the Pharisees the most celebrated professors of it, and they both sat in Moses' chair (ch. 23:2), and had such a reputation among the people, that they were looked upon as super-conformable to the law, and people did not think themselves obliged to be as good as they; it was therefore a great surprise to them, to hear that they must be better than they, or they should not go to heaven; and therefore Christ here avers it with solemnity; I say unto you, It is so. The scribes and Pharisees were enemies to Christ and his doctrine, and were great oppressors; and yet it must be owned, that there was something commendable in them. They were much in fasting and prayer, and giving of alms; they were punctual in observing the ceremonial appointments, and made it their business to teach others; they had such an interest in the people that they ought, if but two men went to heaven, one would be a Pharisee; and yet our Lord Jesus here tells his disciples, that the religion he came to establish, did not only exclude the badness, but excel the goodness, of the scribes and Pharisees. We must do more than they, and better than they, or we shall come short of heaven. They were partial in the law, and laid most stress upon the ritual part of it; but we must be universal, and not think it enough to give the priest his tithe, but must give God our hearts. They minded only the outside, but we must make conscience of inside godliness. They aimed at the praise and applause of men, but we must aim at acceptance with God: they were proud of what they did in religion, and trusted to it as a righteousness; but we, when we have done all, must deny ourselves, and say, We are unprofitable servants, and trust only to the righteousness of Christ; and thus we may go beyond the scribes and Pharisees.
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/poole/matthew/5.htm
Matthew Poole's Commentary
Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
...............................................................
to fulfil it. It is manifest, by his following discourse, that he principally spake of the moral law, though he also fulfilled the ceremonial law, he being the Antitype in whom all the types of that had their complement, and real fulfilling and accomplishment. Saith he, I am not come to destroy and put an end to the moral law. I am come to fulfil it: not to fill it up, as papists and Socinians contend, adding any new precept to it; but by yielding myself a personal obedience to it, by giving a fuller and stricter interpretation of it than you have formerly had, and by taking the curse of it (so far as concerneth my disciples) upon myself, and giving a just satisfaction to Divine justice for it. The greatest objection urged against Christ destroying part of the law, and adding new precepts to the moral law, is that about the change of the sabbath; but this is none, if we consider that the moral law required no more than one day of seven to be kept as a day of holy rest, not this or that particular day; for the particular day, the Jews learned it from the ceremonial law, as Christians learn theirs from Christ's and the apostles' practice. Nor is it any objection against this, that the seventh day from the creation is mentioned in the law, to those who know how to distinguish between the precept and the argument; the seventh from the creation is not in the precept, but in the argument, For in six days, & c. Now there is nothing more ordinary than to have arguments of a particular temporary concernment used to enforce precepts of an eternal obligation, where the precepts were first given to that particular people, as to whom those arguments were of force, an instance of which is in the first commandment, as well as in this: as, on the other side, arguments of universal force are oft annexed to precepts, which had but a particular obligation upon a particular people for a time. Thus in the ceremonial law, we often find it is an argument to enforce many ceremonial precepts, For I am the Lord thy God.
The above commentary does not even support the seventh day Sabbath, but still understands the verses under examination to be primarily about the moral law.
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/wes/matthew/5.htm
Wesley's Notes on the Bible
Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:17 Think not - Do not imagine, fear, hope, that I am come - Like your teachers, to destroy the law or the prophets. I am not come to destroy - The moral law, but to fulfil - To establish, illustrate, and explain its highest meaning, both by my life and doctrine.
Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
5:18 Till all things shall be effected - Which it either requires or foretells. For the law has its effect, when the rewards are given, and the punishments annexed to it inflicted, as well as when its precepts are obeyed. Luke 16:17; 21:33.
Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
5:19 One of the least - So accounted by men; and shall teach - Either by word or example; shall be the least - That is, shall have no part therein.
Apparently your claim that all would laugh at my views does not apply to the authors of the above commentaries, and a great many more I presume.
Beam:
if the old covenant laws are still part of how man is supposed to live then please tell me and all who believe as I do why you do not do all that the old covenant laws demand. Remember Jesus said: Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Tell us how you get around Jesus words. Are you able to see the word "all"? Before you can delete any part of the law before all is fulfilled is certainly a sin if you believe as you do. You are not allowed to pick and choose.
Jesus didn't come to take away the law, He came to save Jews who were condemned by the law. Jesus proved to the World that the law could be kept. He fulfilled the law and fulfilled means to bring to an end.
"From my very soul, I detest everything that in the least savors of the Antinomianism which leads people to prate about being secure in Christ while they are living in sin. [[GE: and "sin is the transgression of the Law" whichever of God]] We cannot be saved by or for our good works, neither can we be saved without good works. Christ never will save any of His people in their sins; He saves His people from their sins. If a man is not desiring to live a holy life in the sight of God, with the help of the Holy Spirit, he is still " in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity." - C.H.Spurgeon
[[GE: "The Law...whichever...was introduced because of sin" whatever sin.]]
And I thought that the Bible tells us to PROCLAIM CHRIST MORE FULLY.
Proclaim the reality - the shadow is nothing!!!!
CO2:
And I thought that the Bible tells us to PROCLAIM CHRIST MORE FULLY.
Proclaim the reality - the shadow is nothing!!!!
Not the shadow of Christ. Until He returns all we can see of Him is the shadow of Christ who is the Substance and Light beaming down so his followers can follow Him not blind but seeing; and can rest assured He lives, because they can observe his heavenly movement, the shadow of the Almighty shielding while leading them on earth through time towards The Lord's Day and of His Coming Again to in it triumph, victorious!
'New Covenant Christianity' that demands 'accepting Jesus as one's saviour' means 'the Spirit-led' rejects and abhors "a Sabbath Day of rest remaining valid for the People of God", is nothing but satanic deception and delusion.
The one thing worse than the antinomian is the anticharisian. "Because of sin the Law was added so that sin should be sin even more; but where sin increased because of the Law, grace over-abundantly abounded."
: Gerhard Ebersöhn Tue Jan 15, 2019 - 00:26:18
'New Covenant Christianity' that demands 'accepting Jesus as one's saviour' means 'the Spirit-led' rejects and abhors "a Sabbath Day of rest remaining valid for the People of God", is nothing but satanic deception and delusion.
There you go—- Gerhart —- diving for the bottom of the class again.
CO2:
There you go—- Gerhart —- diving for the bottom of the class again.
De-ja vu...
Thank you for your post although I already have all the many invariably the same content posts from you to me, and dived as I might for content other than the mug, I dived in vain. You did not know I am a professional crap, mug and mire diver?
: Gerhard Ebersöhn Fri Jan 18, 2019 - 00:35:05
De-ja vu...
Thank you for your post although I already have all the many invariably the same content posts from you to me, and dived as I might for content other than the mug, I dived without success. You did not know I am a professional crap and mug diver?
Puny words from the partially proficient such as yourself, Shubee, Amo and Hobie do not change the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
None of you are any different from the other three.
Beam:
Continue in your orgy of pseudo-spirituality with the other 3 partially proficient apprentice prophets in training.
You can continue to slap each other on the back in congratulations or in consolement - hard to say which it is...
Answer my questions, phoney.
: Gerhard Ebersöhn Fri Jan 18, 2019 - 12:16:29
Answer my questions, phoney.
What is composed by the partially proficient such as yourself is not a real question - so it is not necessary to reply to it.
: beam Fri Jan 11, 2019 - 18:53:34
Amo, if the old covenant laws are still part of how man is supposed to live then please tell me and all who believe as I do why you do not do all that the old covenant laws demand. Remember Jesus said: Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Tell us how you get around Jesus words. Are you able to see the word "all"? Before you can delete any part of the law before all is fulfilled is certainly a sin if you believe as you do. You are not allowed to pick and choose.
Jesus didn't come to take away the law, He came to save Jews who were condemned by the law. Jesus proved to the World that the law could be kept. He fulfilled the law and fulfilled means to bring to an end.
So now we can kill and steal and commit adultery with abandon, I see a slight problem....
: Hobie Tue Feb 19, 2019 - 05:02:51
So now we can kill and steal and commit adultery with abandon, I see a slight problem....
There in lies your problem - as one of the partially proficient....
when you become proficient in reading your Bible then you will have no problem with killing and stealing and committing adultery with abandon - as you do now. All that desire YOU have for those things now will be gone and you won't need the Law to tell you that you are doing wrong.
: Amo Mon Jan 14, 2019 - 06:43:15
beam -
Jesus did not come to fulfill the civil laws of the literal nation of Israel, many of which have no salvific or spiritual implications. Apart from this, He and the apostles plainly taught that there would be and were major changes concerning the ceremonial laws being fulfilled in our Lord and Savior. They were not simply done away with, but rather established in Christ Jesus, just as the ten commandments are. If you want to insist that Jesus was talking about 613 laws, including those specifically pointed out by Jesus and the apostles as having changed, then you should be keeping all of them. That is your claim not mine.
I can an do accept that Jesus Christ came to fulfill all the law and the prophets just as He testified, that fulfillment did bring about changes, properly understanding what those changes were includes properly dividing the word of God in regards to the same. This is a large part of what the NT is all about. The facts remain, He conclusively stated that He did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it. That fulfillment included changes to the ceremonial laws clearly explained by Christ and the apostles. The commandments of God however, are held up as the continuous standard up to the last book ad chapter of the bible.
Perhaps the following quotes form various commentaries can help you with this issue. Several of them contradict your above statement that all would laugh at the idea that Jesus was referring mainly to the moral law or ten commandments in the verses under examination. Even those addressing the entire law, do not share your perspective. All emphasis in the following quotes is mine.
Apparently your claim that all would laugh at my views does not apply to the authors of the above commentaries, and a great many more I presume.
Hi Amo, I did not read word for word all the commentaries on verses 17 and 18, but I do know that probably not one of the authors observed the Sabbath command of the decalogue. I agree with them as far as commandments dealing with morality have been and will be enforced and never ceased until Jesus comes again. I have stated laws concerning morality are forever. The nine moral laws of the 10 commandments are just the iceberg of moral issues facing man today. There are many more sins equally as important as some of the nine. The most important two are not even mentioned in the 10 commandments. One is to
LOVE God with all your heart and the next one is to
LOVE your neighbor as yourself.
Every issue concerning our sinning against ourselves, our fellow man and God are part of Jesus new covenant, the covenant Christians are under. The old covenant was broken and is no longer enforced, I don't care how many commentaries you present we are not under the laws of that covenant because it does not exist. The only reason you try to make it exist is to reconcile your belief that man must observe the Sabbath ritual. In 2Cor3:7-11 Paul writes that the 10 commandments were the ministry of death and have been done away. 1Cor 3:7-11 Argue your case and ignore Paul all you want, but that argument does not ring true. Jesus kept the book of the law which contained 613 rules, some for the woman, some for men, and some for all the governing. There is no indication in Matt 5:17-18 that He was referring to just parts of the 613 laws. The writers of the commentaries certainly never hinted there was, they assumed He was referring to the 10 commandments I suppose. If one would read further in those verses we will find out He was referring to some not found in the 10.
Jeremiah prophesied that the day would come that God would give Israel a new and better covenant and that had to happen while Jesus lived because it had to be ratified by His blood. I proudly submit to you and all who read this post that Jesus fulfilled Jeremiah's prophecy and now all me are living under the new and better covenant. And I submit to you that the old covenant with all its rituals like the Sabbaths have passed away.
There in lies your problem - as one of the partially proficient....
when you become proficient in reading your Bible then you will have no problem with killing and stealing and committing adultery with abandon - as you do now. All that desire YOU have for those things now will be gone and you won't need the Law to tell you that you are doing wrong.
No Scripture blah blah blah
Hi Amo, I did not read word for word all the commentaries on verses 17 and 18, but I do know that probably not one of the authors observed the Sabbath command of the decalogue. I agree with them as far as commandments dealing with morality have been and will be enforced and never ceased until Jesus comes again. I have stated laws concerning morality are forever. The nine moral laws of the 10 commandments are just the iceberg of moral issues facing man today. There are many more sins equally as important as some of the nine. The most important two are not even mentioned in the 10 commandments. One is to LOVE God with all your heart and the next one is to LOVE your neighbor as yourself.
Every issue concerning our sinning against ourselves, our fellow man and God are part of Jesus new covenant, the covenant Christians are under. The old covenant was broken and is no longer enforced, I don't care how many commentaries you present we are not under the laws of that covenant because it does not exist. The only reason you try to make it exist is to reconcile your belief that man must observe the Sabbath ritual. In 2Cor3:7-11 Paul writes that the 10 commandments were the ministry of death and have been done away. 1Cor 3:7-11 Argue your case and ignore Paul all you want, but that argument does not ring true. Jesus kept the book of the law which contained 613 rules, some for the woman, some for men, and some for all the governing. There is no indication in Matt 5:17-18 that He was referring to just parts of the 613 laws. The writers of the commentaries certainly never hinted there was, they assumed He was referring to the 10 commandments I suppose. If one would read further in those verses we will find out He was referring to some not found in the 10.
Jeremiah prophesied that the day would come that God would give Israel a new and better covenant and that had to happen while Jesus lived because it had to be ratified by His blood. I proudly submit to you and all who read this post that Jesus fulfilled Jeremiah's prophecy and now all me are living under the new and better covenant. And I submit to you that the old covenant with all its rituals like the Sabbaths have passed away.
Aai aai I proudly Beam the witbors kraai hiervandaan na Mosselbaai
: Hobie Tue Feb 19, 2019 - 05:02:51
So now we can kill and steal and commit adultery with abandon, I see a slight problem....
You have the Book? You should read it sometime. It is full of profound writings and wisdom. It will make your statement
seem foolish.
: beam Tue Feb 19, 2019 - 17:16:19
Hi Amo, I did not read word for word all the commentaries on verses 17 and 18, but I do know that probably not one of the authors observed the Sabbath command of the decalogue. I agree with them as far as commandments dealing with morality have been and will be enforced and never ceased until Jesus comes again. I have stated laws concerning morality are forever. The nine moral laws of the 10 commandments are just the iceberg of moral issues facing man today. There are many more sins equally as important as some of the nine. The most important two are not even mentioned in the 10 commandments. One is to LOVE God with all your heart and the next one is to LOVE your neighbor as yourself.
Every issue concerning our sinning against ourselves, our fellow man and God are part of Jesus new covenant, the covenant Christians are under. The old covenant was broken and is no longer enforced, I don't care how many commentaries you present we are not under the laws of that covenant because it does not exist. The only reason you try to make it exist is to reconcile your belief that man must observe the Sabbath ritual. In 2Cor3:7-11 Paul writes that the 10 commandments were the ministry of death and have been done away. 1Cor 3:7-11 Argue your case and ignore Paul all you want, but that argument does not ring true. Jesus kept the book of the law which contained 613 rules, some for the woman, some for men, and some for all the governing. There is no indication in Matt 5:17-18 that He was referring to just parts of the 613 laws. The writers of the commentaries certainly never hinted there was, they assumed He was referring to the 10 commandments I suppose. If one would read further in those verses we will find out He was referring to some not found in the 10.
Jeremiah prophesied that the day would come that God would give Israel a new and better covenant and that had to happen while Jesus lived because it had to be ratified by His blood. I proudly submit to you and all who read this post that Jesus fulfilled Jeremiah's prophecy and now all me are living under the new and better covenant. And I submit to you that the old covenant with all its rituals like the Sabbaths have passed away.
You said -
To try to prove He was just referring to the 10 is ludicrous and would be laughed at if you presented that to scholars of scripture.
You were wrong, get over it.
If you insist that Jesus was talking about 613 laws, then so be it, obey all those laws or reject His testimony. Do as you wish.
The two laws you say aren't there are a summary of the ten, and were given during the old covenant to Israel as well. Shall I quote scripture and many a commentary for you concerning the same?
They are the ten commandments, not the nine commandments. Fallen humanity rejecting one of the ten commandments will never make them nine commandments but in their own twisted minds. Try as they may, they will not, and cannot change God's word. To the contrary, all will be judged by those words.
I'm pretty sure none of the commentators I quoted supported still keeping God's Sabbath. I know Calvin did not. Like you he chose to pluck the fourth right out of the middle of the rest and claim it was ceremonial, not moral. This changes nothing. I do not worship Calvin or place him above scripture. The testimony of scripture is clear enough.
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written,
Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying, 2
I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 13 Thou shalt not kill. 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15 Thou shalt not steal. 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
: Amo Sat Feb 23, 2019 - 10:19:29
You said - To try to prove He was just referring to the 10 is ludicrous and would be laughed at if you presented that to scholars of scripture.
You were wrong, get over it.
Refresh my mind, Amo. Did you present an argument that proves there should be a 10 before commandments in any of the passages where it just written "commandments"?
If you insist that Jesus was talking about 613 laws, then so be it, obey all those laws or reject His testimony. Do as you wish.
Have you presented any facts to the contrary? I believe Jesus, He fulfilled the old covenant and gave us a new and better covenant. Fulfill means to bring to an end, Amo. Jesus ended the old when He brought on the new. Simple isn't it.
The two laws you say aren't there are a summary of the ten,
That is a thoughtless statement, Amo, one a parrot would udder. The 10 commandments had nothing to do with love, they were all about duty. You have been reading too much Ellen stuff.
and were given during the old covenant to Israel as well. Shall I quote scripture and many a commentary for you concerning the same?
Oh, you mean the ones that your prophet said were eliminated when questioned about Col 2. I know right where the commands are and your quotes from commentaries mean nothing to me.
They are the ten commandments, not the nine commandments. Fallen humanity rejecting one of the ten commandments will never make them nine commandments but in their own twisted minds. Try as they may, they will not, and cannot change God's word. To the contrary, all will be judged by those words.
I'm pretty sure none of the commentators I quoted supported still keeping God's Sabbath.
Or ever did
I know Calvin did not. Like you he chose to pluck the fourth right out of the middle of the rest and claim it was ceremonial, not moral.
Well, he was completely correct. Moral laws deal with how we treat God, our fellow men and ourselves. Morality laws are also how we treat animals. They are people and animal laws. Sabbath does not fit the description, does it? The weekly Sabbath was like all the other Sabbaths, ceremonial or ritual.
This changes nothing. I do not worship Calvin or place him above scripture. The testimony of scripture is clear enough.
Well, not quite enough for SDAs right? Ellen fits in there someplace right?
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
So, are you seriously keeping all of the old covenant Jesus was referring? You just quoted the 10 below, but may I remind you that there were 613 laws that Israel had to deal with and according to what you wrote are part of what Christians have to live by. Seems like you engaged fingers before brain.
Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 13 Thou shalt not kill. 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15 Thou shalt not steal. 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Yes, those are the ones in toto that Paul wrote about in 2Cor3:7-11. What did he say about them? Oh yes, he said they were done away. KJV Read it for yourself there in verse 11. Why could Paul tell us they are done away? He could tell us that because Jesus fulfilled the old covenant.
So you see, Amo that is why there is no 10 before commandments in all of the New Testament. 1Jn3:19-24 testifies to all the other facts. Are you going to continue putting your trust in Ellen's books or trust in the Holy Writ?
Refresh my mind, Amo. Did you present an argument that proves there should be a 10 before commandments in any of the passages where it just written "commandments"?
Stop trying to dodge and evade. You said anyone would laugh at the idea that Jesus was talking mainly about the ten commandments known as the moral law in Mt 5:17-19 and you were wrong.
Have you presented any facts to the contrary? I believe Jesus, He fulfilled the old covenant and gave us a new and better covenant. Fulfill means to bring to an end, Amo. Jesus ended the old when He brought on the new. Simple isn't it.
Yes typing a few sentences as you did above is fairly simple. Making Mt 5:17-19 mean what you said above is not simple or correct. He said a lot more than you are addressing or allowing for. Observe -
Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.You left all of the above out. You did so because it does not suggest what you have above. It specifically states tat the law will not change till all be fulfilled which will not happen until heaven and earth pass. It then specifically states that anyone who breaks or teaches the breaking of any of the commandments will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. You may choose to ignore certain parts of our Lord and Saviors testimonies in order to support your own personal views you wish, and call it simple, but I and many others think this very unwise. Even extremely unhealthy.
That is a thoughtless statement, Amo, one a parrot would udder. The 10 commandments had nothing to do with love, they were all about duty. You have been reading too much Ellen stuff.
I guess when one chooses deception, they do not realize the blindness they have imposed upon themselves. Do you really think EGW came up with that?
Mt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.How could the ten commandments hang upon something they have nothing to do with?
1 Joh 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2 Joh 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. 6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.Perhaps you calling my statement thoughtless, was a thoughtless statement.
Oh, you mean the ones that your prophet said were eliminated when questioned about Col 2. I know right where the commands are and your quotes from commentaries mean nothing to me.
Yes I know, some scripture means nothing to you, and EGW invented everything many others said before her id she said it as well.
Well, he was completely correct. Moral laws deal with how we treat God, our fellow men and ourselves. Morality laws are also how we treat animals. They are people and animal laws. Sabbath does not fit the description, does it? The weekly Sabbath was like all the other Sabbaths, ceremonial or ritual.
The Sabbath predates both moral and ceremonial law. It was established before sin existed when there was no need for any ceremonial law, and scripture states that it will be kept after sin is no more. Would you please explain how the ten commandments are ceremonial laws, and if not, then how just the fourth commandment is? That you.
Well, not quite enough for SDAs right? Ellen fits in there someplace right?
Negative. Perhaps you are projecting your own worship of EGW upon me because this is what you did when an SDA, but I do not. I don't worship any but God.
So, are you seriously keeping all of the old covenant Jesus was referring? You just quoted the 10 below, but may I remind you that there were 613 laws that Israel had to deal with and according to what you wrote are part of what Christians have to live by. Seems like you engaged fingers before brain.
I have never said Christians have to keep 613 laws given to Israel, this is what you say. I've never said it, and scripture says it nowhere. Jesus and the Apostles made it abundantly clear that much of the law has been fulfilled and or therefore changed as well. You insist that if the ten should still be kept, then all the others must be as well, not I or scripture. It is your creation not mine, you own it. You try to impose it upon me, but I will continue to refuse it. So be it.
Yes, those are the ones in toto that Paul wrote about in 2Cor3:7-11. What did he say about them? Oh yes, he said they were done away. KJV Read it for yourself there in verse 11. Why could Paul tell us they are done away? He could tell us that because Jesus fulfilled the old covenant.
2 For 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:The scriptures themsleves tell you what was abolished, you simply choose to believe it was the ten commandments, and by so doing make the Apostle Paul blatantly contradict his own testimony. The death penalty of the law is abolished in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for the saved, not the authority of God's commandments. this is the truth which you refuse, which makes you blind.
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
1 For 7:18 Was anyone at the time of his calling [from God already] circumcised? He is not to [a]become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called while uncircumcised? He is not to be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is keeping the commandments of God. 20 Each one should remain in the condition in which he was [when he was] called.(AMP)So you see, Amo that is why there is no 10 before commandments in all of the New Testament. 1Jn3:19-24 testifies to all the other facts. Are you going to continue putting your trust in Ellen's books or trust in the Holy Writ?
I do trust in the Holy Writ, so did EGW. We both trust and trusted more in our understanding of Holy Writ, than your twisted views regarding the same. I also trust her views far more than yours, being that they are far more grounded in the entirety of scripture than your own very scripturally selective brand. 1 Joh 3:19-24 is truth. The spin you place upon it, is not.
Amo wrote:
Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Hi Amo,
You left all of the above out. You did so because it does not suggest what you have above. It specifically states tat the law will not change till all be fulfilled which will not happen until heaven and earth pass. It then specifically states that anyone who breaks or teaches the breaking of any of the commandments will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. You may choose to ignore certain parts of our Lord and Saviors testimonies in order to support your own personal views you wish, and call it simple, but I and many others think this very unwise. Even extremely unhealthy.
Hi Amo, if you are, in fact, correct in your interpretation of the above scripture then you would, in fact, be under every jot and tittle of the old covenant. Not one jot nor one tittle means that all 613 laws of the Sinai covenant are still enforced until Heaven and Earth pass away. You cannot have it both ways my friend. You cannot ignore the book of the Law's 603 commands. Do you get my point?
: beam Thu Feb 28, 2019 - 11:35:36
Amo wrote:Hi Amo, if you are, in fact, correct in your interpretation of the above scripture then you would, in fact, be under every jot and tittle of the old covenant. Not one jot nor one tittle means that all 613 laws of the Sinai covenant are still enforced until Heaven and Earth pass away. You cannot have it both ways my friend. You cannot ignore the book of the Law's 603 commands. Do you get my point?
Mt 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.Mt 24:1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them,
See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.Joh 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her,
Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.There goes the temple and its services, and therefore all the ceremonial laws connected with it. You are simply wrong. Shall I show you more NT scripture pointing out OT laws being changed or done away with? Does our Lord and Savior contradict Himself? If He spoke of all the laws you demand He did in the verses under examination, then yes, His testimony does contradict itself. I understand this may be acceptable to you in order to believe as you wish, I and others do not agree. You cannot and will not change laws which God Himself spoke into existence. They are His laws, and only He can change them. All attempts by fallen humanity to do so, are in fact anti-christ. Go to, serve your master.
: Amo Thu Feb 28, 2019 - 14:26:28
There goes the temple and its services, and therefore all the ceremonial laws connected with it. You are simply wrong. Shall I show you more NT scripture pointing out OT laws being changed or done away with? Does our Lord and Savior contradict Himself? If He spoke of all the laws you demand He did in the verses under examination, then yes, His testimony does contradict itself. I understand this may be acceptable to you in order to believe as you wish, I and others do not agree. You cannot and will not change laws which God Himself spoke into existence. They are His laws, and only He can change them. All attempts by fallen humanity to do so, are in fact anti-christ. Go to, serve your master.
Hi Amo, I am not letting you off that easy, my friend. Jesus didn't lie. Your scenario makes Jesus a liar. Now come on, Amo, you are using Jesus Matt 5 statement to claim that the law is still enforce and then go on to tell us that part of it isn't. What does
NOT ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE MEAN? You even used Jesus word about Heaven and Earth passing to prove your point that the Law is still ruling over man.
Wouldn't it be much simpler to understand that Jesus used a qualifier when He said: "until". The fact is that Heaven and Earth passing is a metaphor and not an actual event. Your argument is trying to convince us that the Law with its Sabbath command is still binding. Jesus came to fulfill, bring to an end, the Sinai covenant. The Sinai covenant was an "IF" covenant. Israel broke their part of the agreement and the final demise of the covenant happened at Calvary. The Temple curtain was rent indicating the end of the Levitical priesthood and Jesus becoming our High Priest. Where ther is a change in the priesthood there is a change in the Law. Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. Jesus, at His death, ratified the New and better Covenant with His own blood. Pretty simple isn't it. No more Old Covenant, no more Sabbath requirements.
: beam Fri Mar 01, 2019 - 09:36:33
Hi Amo, I am not letting you off that easy, my friend. Jesus didn't lie. Your scenario makes Jesus a liar. Now come on, Amo, you are using Jesus Matt 5 statement to claim that the law is still enforce and then go on to tell us that part of it isn't. What does NOT ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE MEAN? You even used Jesus word about Heaven and Earth passing to prove your point that the Law is still ruling over man.
Wouldn't it be much simpler to understand that Jesus used a qualifier when He said: "until". The fact is that Heaven and Earth passing is a metaphor and not an actual event. Your argument is trying to convince us that the Law with its Sabbath command is still binding. Jesus came to fulfill, bring to an end, the Sinai covenant. The Sinai covenant was an "IF" covenant. Israel broke their part of the agreement and the final demise of the covenant happened at Calvary. The Temple curtain was rent indicating the end of the Levitical priesthood and Jesus becoming our High Priest. Where ther is a change in the priesthood there is a change in the Law. Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. Jesus, at His death, ratified the New and better Covenant with His own blood. Pretty simple isn't it. No more Old Covenant, no more Sabbath requirements.
I didn't say anything about Jesus being a liar, again these are your words not mine. Your attempts to control or manipulate the parameters of our debate by manipulating my words as you see fit, or adding words and or ideas to what I have stated, are useless. You will not contain me within the box of your own, as I see it, warped perception. My point was that Jesus did not contradict Himself as you claim, not that He didn't lie. I never said or intended such?
The idea that I need to be let off of anything by you, is in your own head alone. Again, just some simple facts that disturb your claims of simplicity. According to scripture the Sabbath was established before either of the covenants, and will be observed after both have ended.
Those of the faith before the OC you refer to established with Israel, were only privy to God's designs because they kept His commandments, and those of this NC are also said to keep His commandments.
Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,
which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints:
here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.Rev 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
The passing away of this world is not a metaphor but in your own mind, as a result of rejecting truth and choosing to defend lies. You must make it so, to defend your position. This is your testimony in defense of the same, not the testimony of scripture.
Isa 65:17 For, behold,
I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 66:22
For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another,
and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
2 Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;
in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God,
wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise,
look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
Rev 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain:
for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write:
for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Why do you separate Jesus' statement regarding the passing away of heaven and earth from the above scriptural testimony? Is it not in order to defend what you ave chosen? You must separate them, and insist that they are separate, to defend your position. It is not logical to do so, it is simply necessary to your position to do so. Are all the above statements of scripture simply metaphor?
: Amo Fri Mar 01, 2019 - 10:30:22
I didn't say anything about Jesus being a liar, again these are your words not mine.
Yes, that is true. You made Him out a liar when you wrote that the ceremonial part of the Law ended with the destruction of Jerusalem. If you insist on believing not one jot nor one tittle can pass from the Sinai covenant and deny the word "until" and then tell us the ceremonial part of the law ended you make Jesus out a liar.
Your attempts to control or manipulate the parameters of our debate by manipulating my words as you see fit, or adding words and or ideas to what I have stated, are useless. You will not contain me within the box of your own, as I see it, warped perception. My point was that Jesus did not contradict Himself as you claim, not that He didn't lie. I never said or intended such?
Flop, We all know Jesus didn't contradict Himself. You did the contradicting. First, you denied the word "until" and then denied not one jot or tittle passing from the Sinai covenant. Furthermore, in your statement below you deny that "Heaven and Earth passing away is a metaphor. All this to try to defend your churches false belief. I am amazed.
The idea that I need to be let off of anything by you, is in your own head alone. Again, just some simple facts that disturb your claims of simplicity. According to scripture the Sabbath was established before either of the covenants, and will be observed after both have ended.
Another false belief your church is promoting. Where there is no law there is no sin. There was no command for man to observe any day until after the Red Sea. If there were a command to observe the Sabbath why didn't God stop the Exodus during the escape and have the Israelites observe it?
Those of the faith before the OC you refer to established with Israel, were only privy to God's designs because they kept His commandments, and those of this NC are also said to keep His commandments.
Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Who has given you or your church the right to put a 10 in front of commandments and spread this falsehood to all you and your church has spread it? That is adding to scripture.
The passing away of this world is not a metaphor but in your own mind, as a result of rejecting truth and choosing to defend lies. You must make it so, to defend your position. This is your testimony in defense of the same, not the testimony of scripture.
You can deny all you want, tell me it is in my mind and that I am rejecting truth and defending lies all you want. The fact is that you have your head in the sand. Until you recognize the word "fulfill" you will be denying the real truth. The 10 commandments have been done away as the guide of the Israelites and the Holy Spirit, the gift given to all mankind, is now our guide into righteousness. Simple isn't it?
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Quoting Isiah really doesn't impress me. In chapter 65 he writes that man will live to be over 100 before he dies and some other statements that are not congruent to what we believe. He writes that we won't remember, but then writes that we will go out on the Sabbath and walk among the worm-ridden bodies of those that didn't make it to Heaven.
2 Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;
in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God,
wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise,
look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
Rev 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain:
for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write:
for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.[/color]
Why do you separate Jesus' statement regarding the passing away of heaven and earth from the above scriptural testimony? Is it not in order to defend what you ave chosen? You must separate them, and insist that they are separate, to defend your position. It is not logical to do so, it is simply necessary to your position to do so. Are all the above statements of scripture simply metaphor?
[/quote]Quote all you want, but you have not proved that Heaven and Earth has to pass before the old covenant ends because you refuse to accept 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law,
till all be fulfilled. Either all the law is still intact or all the law has been fulfilled. Believe that truth and it will unshackle you from the clutches of Adventism
: beam Sat Mar 02, 2019 - 09:26:57
Yes, that is true. You made Him out a liar when you wrote that the ceremonial part of the Law ended with the destruction of Jerusalem. If you insist on believing not one jot nor one tittle can pass from the Sinai covenant and deny the word "until" and then tell us the ceremonial part of the law ended you make Jesus out a liar.
Flop, We all know Jesus didn't contradict Himself. You did the contradicting. First, you denied the word "until" and then denied not one jot or tittle passing from the Sinai covenant. Furthermore, in your statement below you deny that "Heaven and Earth passing away is a metaphor. All this to try to defend your churches false belief. I am amazed.
Another false belief your church is promoting. Where there is no law there is no sin. There was no command for man to observe any day until after the Red Sea. If there were a command to observe the Sabbath why didn't God stop the Exodus during the escape and have the Israelites observe it?
Who has given you or your church the right to put a 10 in front of commandments and spread this falsehood to all you and your church has spread it? That is adding to scripture.
You can deny all you want, tell me it is in my mind and that I am rejecting truth and defending lies all you want. The fact is that you have your head in the sand. Until you recognize the word "fulfill" you will be denying the real truth. The 10 commandments have been done away as the guide of the Israelites and the Holy Spirit, the gift given to all mankind, is now our guide into righteousness. Simple isn't it?
Quoting Isiah really doesn't impress me. In chapter 65 he writes that man will live to be over 100 before he dies and some other statements that are not congruent to what we believe. He writes that we won't remember, but then writes that we will go out on the Sabbath and walk among the worm-ridden bodies of those that didn't make it to Heaven.
2 Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.[/color]
Why do you separate Jesus' statement regarding the passing away of heaven and earth from the above scriptural testimony? Is it not in order to defend what you ave chosen? You must separate them, and insist that they are separate, to defend your position. It is not logical to do so, it is simply necessary to your position to do so. Are all the above statements of scripture simply metaphor?
Quote all you want, but you have not proved that Heaven and Earth has to pass before the old covenant ends because you refuse to accept 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Either all the law is still intact or all the law has been fulfilled. Believe that truth and it will unshackle you from the clutches of Adventism
I leave you to your delusions. Concerning both what scripture says, and what you continue to say I am saying.
Hi Amo, Thanks for the debate. I thank the Lord that you couldn't dispute my beliefs. I sincerely would not want to have to go back under the dictates of Ellen White and the SDA church. When I left Adventism I discovered that I was free in Jesus. No one looking in my grocery cart for food that Ellen deemed unfit, no more being judged at Bible study and Sabbath School for different thoughts on scripture. No more paying the demanded false tithe that Ellen threatened if we didn't return honestly we would be eternally lost. Now the real big one, not being able to know that we are saved because of the false Investigative Judgment. Yep, thanks a million.
: beam Sat Mar 02, 2019 - 18:55:01
Hi Amo, Thanks for the debate. I thank the Lord that you couldn't dispute my beliefs. I sincerely would not want to have to go back under the dictates of Ellen White and the SDA church. When I left Adventism I discovered that I was free in Jesus. No one looking in my grocery cart for food that Ellen deemed unfit, no more being judged at Bible study and Sabbath School for different thoughts on scripture. No more paying the demanded false tithe that Ellen threatened if we didn't return honestly we would be eternally lost. Now the real big one, not being able to know that we are saved because of the false Investigative Judgment. Yep, thanks a million.
I did dispute your easily disputed beliefs. I just see no sense in covering the same ground over and over again. If you think simply posting last equals winning a debate or dispute, then so be it, you won in your own mind anyway. I'm glad you are very self confident about your personal salvation, and I sincerely hope you are correct. Nevertheless, God will have the final word on that one, concerning all of us. To be sure, many will believe they are saved who are not, as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ clearly points out. While I have great faith in His abilities, I choose to exalt Him as the Savior of all who will place their faith in Him, rather than my own profession of absolute surety of salvation.
Lk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.Which one of the above knew in heir own mind that they were justified or saved? Which one actually was? I know I am a sinner. I will not boast that I am saved. I will boast that Jesus saves. No one will ever be saved by declaring that they are. All who trust and lean upon our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, will be.
Quote from: beam on Sat Mar 02, 2019 - 18:55:01
Hi Amo, Thanks for the debate. I thank the Lord that you couldn't dispute my beliefs. I sincerely would not want to have to go back under the dictates of Ellen White and the SDA church. When I left Adventism I discovered that I was free in Jesus. No one looking in my grocery cart for food that Ellen deemed unfit, no more being judged at Bible study and Sabbath School for different thoughts on scripture. No more paying the demanded false tithe that Ellen threatened if we didn't return honestly we would be eternally lost. Now the real big one, not being able to know that we are saved because of the false Investigative Judgment. Yep, thanks a million.[/Quote]
I did dispute your easily disputed beliefs.
Yes, you did, but I had to wring them out of you. Your favorite is that you already answered the questions. We still had many unanswered questions when you decided to stop posting .
I just see no sense in covering the same ground over and over again. If you think simply posting last equals winning a debate or dispute, then so be it, you won in your own mind anyway.
Yes, Amo, it is my fault you stopped. The great blame game. You wouldn't answer, but it is all my fault.
I'm glad you are very self confident about your personal salvation, and I sincerely hope you are correct. Nevertheless,
I thought you were finally being nice for a second, then came the qualifier "nevertheless". Might just as well not written anything in the first place. Ellen sure has you where she wants you, you have no real hope. You cannot claim all the promises because of her writings. That is really too bad.
God will have the final word on that one, concerning all of us.
Jesus told me the following: 24 "I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.
To be sure, many will believe they are saved who are not, as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ clearly points out. While I have great faith in His abilities, I choose to exalt Him as the Savior of all who will place their faith in Him, rather than my own profession of absolute surety of salvation.
Yep, Ellens got ya.
Lk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Which one of the above knew in heir own mind that they were justified or saved? Which one actually was? I know I am a sinner. I will not boast that I am saved.
Tell me you have never had thoughts like the Pharisee. That was what was wrong with the Law, the law that SDAs hold so dear. You all judge each other as to how well you keep it. I keep telling you it isn't about the incomplete 10 commandments yet you scoff at me. You are really scoffing at our Savior.
I will boast that Jesus saves. No one will ever be saved by declaring that they are. All who trust and lean upon our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be.
Oh yes you do tell us that Jesus saves then you add the qualifiers "but", "but" and more "buts".
It is not what we do, it is all about what Jesus has done.
Yes, you did, but I had to wring them out of you. Your favorite is that you already answered the questions. We still had many unanswered questions when you decided to stop posting .
Yes, Amo, it is my fault you stopped. The great blame game. You wouldn't answer, but it is all my fault.
I thought you were finally being nice for a second, then came the qualifier "nevertheless". Might just as well not written anything in the first place. Ellen sure has you where she wants you, you have no real hope. You cannot claim all the promises because of her writings. That is really too bad.
Jesus told me the following: 24 "I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.
Yep, Ellens got ya.
Lk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Tell me you have never had thoughts like the Pharisee. That was what was wrong with the Law, the law that SDAs hold so dear. You all judge each other as to how well you keep it. I keep telling you it isn't about the incomplete 10 commandments yet you scoff at me. You are really scoffing at our Savior.
Oh yes you do tell us that Jesus saves then you add the qualifiers "but", "but" and more "buts".
It is not what we do, it is all about what Jesus has done.
There is no end to your twisting of scripture, EGW's writings, and my own words. As is almost always the case, you are the one who continually brings up EGW, which I respond to. You and others keep telling me that I am eaten up EGW, but I never use her writings to prove or argue any of my points, but do almost always and only respond to those such as yourself who are apparently at the very least equally eaten up with her as well. You bring her up non stop.
Now you enter upon some sick twisted perception that my decision to not go over and over the same ground with you, which I have already gone over and over again with others long before you, is some kind of blame game on my part. Get over yourself, you don't have that kind of control over my life. You came to these boards and made your accusations, I decided to address some of them, then when our conversation seem to become repetitive I decided not to continue the repetition. That is all. No deep blame game plot. More repetitive drama queen beam outbursts and accusations are not going to make me continue a conversation I have decided is fruitless. You are of course free to Babyl - on.
I will however address a new point you just brought forward -
It is not what we do, it is all about what Jesus has done.
The above is a complete faulty premise of a false gospel. Done is the operative word here. Nothing can be added to what Jesus has done. What we do in relation to what He has done has everything to do with salvation or not. If not, then everyone is saved regardless of any actions or beliefs on their part, and our conversations and all others are a waste of time. Eternal bliss in heaven is a given for everyone regardless.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
You and I and all others will make a decision about what the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ has done. Our words and actions in this life will determine what choice we have made. Lip service alone is cheap. Not one person on this planet will ever be saved because they have declared that they are. They will be saved by the blood of Jesus alone, and He will make the final decision as to who has and who has not been saved by the same. He Himself has testified and declared that many who profess to be His followers are not, and will not enter the kingdom of God.
Phil 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung,
that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do,
forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Salvation is not a one time event beam. It is a decision that must be maintained and striven for. There is an enemy who wishes to destroy the salvation of all. Our flesh is weak, yours included. I am saved by the blood of Jesus Christ, but the gospel has nothing to do with exalting the surety of my personal salvation and or demanding everyone else does so as well. Nor do the scriptures promote or teach anywhere that all who may struggle with doubts of their personal salvation, or mistrust their own personal confidence in declaring such, are lost. To the contrary, such is necessary to the fallen nature of sinners whose main problem is placing self above all, even God. You may trust your own declaration of salvation completely at present, and assure your self of the same for the future as well of course if you please. I will not. I do not trust myself now nor am I likely to do so in the future. I will lean upon the Lord, cling to His promises, and pray for the will and power to continue to do so in the future. Do you condemn Paul for his words above which seem to suggest he continued to strive for salvation?
1 Cor 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection:
lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.Do you condemn him for suggesting above that he as all others could lose salvation?
1 Tim 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith,
lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. 13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. 17
Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; 18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; 19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.Do you condemn him for suggesting that there is something the rich in this world must do that they may lay hold on eternal life, rather than telling them that they must be completely confident that they already have it?
Mt 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.Do you condemn the Lord Jesus Christ for suggesting that those who endure to the end will be saved, and not simply stating that all who profess Him are and can be sure that they are and will be saved?
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the endHas your end or the end of this world come yet? Go to, proclaim your self assured salvation before the end. I will lean upon the Lord and pray for the endurance needed from Him to ensure that salvation, not boast that I already have it.
Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.You may profess whatever you wish in the present, but according to scripture, only those who endure to the end will receive salvation. God will decide who truly endured. Why do you demand that only those who proclaim absolute surety in their salvation can be saved, when Jesus specifically pointed out that many who professed to be his followers would not be saved. Why do you hold up the proclamation of sinners as the final word or authority pertaining to the same, when scripture clearly identifies God as the final word and authority concerning the same, and declares that many of the lost will falsely proclaim the same?
Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Since beam brought up EGW again, alluding to one of her statements concerning surety of salvation, I will post that statement that she may speak for herself.
TRUE REVIVAL pg's 48&49
The evil that led to Peter's fall [in denying Christ at His trial] ... is proving the ruin of thousands today. There is nothing so offensive to God or so dangerous to the human soul as pride and self-sufficiency. Of all sins it is the most hopeless, the most incurable.
Peter's fall was not instantaneous, but gradual. Self-confidence led him to the belief that he was saved, and step after step was taken in the downward path, until he could deny his Master. Never can we safely put confidence in self or feel, this side of heaven, that we are secure against temptation. Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say or to feel that they are saved.*
This is misleading. Every one should be taught to cherish hope and faith; but even when we give ourselves to Christ and know that He accepts us, we are not beyond the reach of temptation. God's Word declares, "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried" (Daniel 12:10). Only he who endures the trial will receive the crown of life (James 1:12).
Those who accept Christ, and in their first confidence say, I am saved, are in danger of trusting to themselves. They lose sight of their own weakness and their constant need of divine strength. They are unprepared for Satan's devices, and under temptation many, like Peter, fall into the very depths of sin. We are admonished, "Let him that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall" (1 Corinthians 10:12). Our only safety is in constant distrust of self, and dependence on Christ.—Christ's Object Lessons, 154, 155.
Self confidence is the problem being addressed, and self distrust is the remedy. Our faith needs to be in Christ, not self feeling or assurance. Peter thought he was ready to die for or with Jesus, but he denied three times instead. Peter had much to learn about himself as we all do. His self confidence in his own faith in Jesus was proved faulty and misplaced. He repented, was forgiven, and appointed an apostle by Jesus Himself. We should not misplace our faith in confident boasting of our own salvation, but rather lean heavily upon Jesus and exalt the salvation He has provided for all who will pick up their crosses and follow Him to the end.
I'm not sure why the saturday sabbath needs to be proclaimed more fully.
I thought it was THE CROSS than need proclaiming to finish the work. - that is the Gospel of the KINGDOM.
CO2:
I'm not sure why the saturday sabbath needs to be proclaimed more fully.
I thought it was THE CROSS than need proclaiming to finish the work. - that is the Gospel of the KINGDOM.
There's no "'saturday sabbath'" thing in Scripture; it's your rubbish!
But you were on the right track when you asked why the Sabbath OF THE LORD needs to be proclaimed more fully, in view of your thought, "'
I thought it was THE CROSS than need proclaiming to finish the work. - that is the Gospel of the KINGDOM.'"
You see, it is not by the cross but by Christ's VICTORY on the cross MANIFEST AND FINISHED IN HIS RESURRECTION from death and grave "ON THE SABBATH" in which "the LORD REVIVED AND RESTED UP AGAIN", "His Name Being The Most Holy", by which the Sabbath not only "'
needs be'" but shall be, '
proclaimed more fully' – and, is being 'proclaimed more fully'.
: Amo Sat Mar 09, 2019 - 08:58:49
There is no end to your twisting of scripture, EGW's writings, and my own words.
Twist scripture??? You write that I do, so show me where, I would appreciate knowing. I am here to show SDAs where they have strayed from the truths of the Bible, not to condemn anyone. You refuse to give me a chance. I have gone to great lengths trying to explain Matt 5:17-18. Not one iota would pass from the Law (Sinai Covenant) until all is fulfilled. As you know fulfill means to bring to an end. Either He fulfilled the laws of the Sinai covenant and we are experiencing Jeremiah's prophecy of a new covenant not like the Sinai covenant, but better than the Sinai covenant xor Jews are still under the Sinai covenant and Gentiles are a law unto ourselves. Anything else doesn't make any sense as I have tried to tell you.
As to twisting the writings of Ellen are concerned I merely quote them for you to see what she is holding over Adventism. You tell me I am twisting your words, well if disagreeing with what you believe is twisting I sure do a lot of it.
As is almost always the case, you are the one who continually brings up EGW, which I respond to. You and others keep telling me that I am eaten up EGW, but I never use her writings to prove or argue any of my points, but do almost always and only respond to those such as yourself who are apparently at the very least equally eaten up with her as well. You bring her up non stop.
Now you enter upon some sick twisted perception that my decision to not go over and over the same ground with you, which I have already gone over and over again with others long before you, is some kind of blame game on my part. Get over yourself, you don't have that kind of control over my life.
Wow! you said a mouthful there. It is so obvious that you are blaming me for asking you questions that you have already answered. I have no idea if you have answered those questions for others. Maybe you should reconsider your position.
You came to these boards and made your accusations,
I came to this board to help people see the real Light. If you think that is accusing then so be it.
I decided to address some of them, then when our conversation seem to become repetitive I decided not to continue the repetition. That is all. No deep blame game plot. More repetitive drama queen beam outbursts and accusations are not going to make me continue a conversation I have decided is fruitless. You are of course free to Babyl - on.
Oh, thank you for your permission to spread the real Gospel. Your words are so inspiring.
I will however address a new point you just brought forward -
The above is a complete faulty premise of a false gospel. Done is the operative word here. Nothing can be added to what Jesus has done. What we do in relation to what He has done has everything to do with salvation or not. If not, then everyone is saved regardless of any actions or beliefs on their part, and our conversations and all others are a waste of time. Eternal bliss in heaven is a given for everyone regardless.
Once again you make it sound like what I wrote is completely wrong. I wrote that it is not what we do, it is what Jesus has done. You have shown your inability to reason rightly what I wrote. It matters zero what we do, if it were not for what Jesus did what we do is nothing but filthy rags. That is why Paul wrote so much about the works of the Law. The good deeds that Christians do are not to gain our salvation They are to show Jesus our appreciation. What we have done for the least of these we have done it to Jesus.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Amen
You and I and all others will make a decision about what the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ has done. Our words and actions in this life will determine what choice we have made. Lip service alone is cheap. Not one person on this planet will ever be saved because they have declared that they are. They will be saved by the blood of Jesus alone, and He will make the final decision as to who has and who has not been saved by the same. He Himself has testified and declared that many who profess to be His followers are not, and will not enter the kingdom of God.
Did all that need to be said? Did Ellen need to tell the flock of SDAs that not one in twenty SDAs is ready for eternal life? I wonder how many non SDAs she would have said were ready? It is really sick to believe after all the promises in scripture that you would discredit anyone who knows they are saved and lets it be known
Phil 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung,
that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do,
forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Salvation is not a one time event beam.
It isn't???? I certainly remember giving my heart to Jesus, asking Him to wash my sinful soul and body. I claimed the promise. He is our Rest, our refuge our hope for eternity. I accepted His promise to keep me from falling and present me faultless before the Throne. Yes, Amo, it was a glorious one-time event. I didn't realize how glorious it was then, now reflecting back over my life I know how beautiful it was.
Had you quoted Paul from the beginning of Phil 3 you wouldn't have been able to use the verses 8-14 as the hammer you think supports your view.
It is a decision that must be maintained and striven for. There is an enemy who wishes to destroy the salvation of all. Our flesh is weak, yours included. I am saved by the blood of Jesus Christ, but the gospel has nothing to do with exalting the surety of my personal salvation and or demanding everyone else does so as well. Nor do the scriptures promote or teach anywhere that all who may struggle with doubts of their personal salvation, or mistrust their own personal confidence in declaring such, are lost. To the contrary, such is necessary to the fallen nature of sinners whose main problem is placing self above all, even God. You may trust your own declaration of salvation completely at present, and assure your self of the same for the future as well of course if you please. I will not. I do not trust myself now nor am I likely to do so in the future. I will lean upon the Lord, cling to His promises, and pray for the will and power to continue to do so in the future. Do you condemn Paul for his words above which seem to suggest he continued to strive for salvation?
No one is asking you to trust in yourself. Your statement is so very sick. It is hard to know where to start because you have that driven into your head so deep. Is Jesus able to keep you from falling and present you before the throne spotless? If you cannot claim that promise then you do not know Jesus. All the works like trying to keep the Sinai covenant's Sabbath is like filthy rags. That is not what Christianity is about. Yes, we are saved by the blood of Jesus. Then you cannot accept what you wrote and have to add a clarification. You know the big BUT. You believe statements like the following: It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord. God says: "Them that honor Me I will honor." {6T 356.4} Salvation is not about what we do, it is about What Jesus did. Abraham was saved by faith. He didn't have the Sinai covenant's laws Deut 5: 2 "The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai.[a] 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our ancestors,
1 Cor 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Do you condemn him for suggesting above that he as all others could lose salvation?
I do not agree with once saved always saved. The race Paul ran didn't secure his salvation. His salvation was secured when he gave his heart to Jesus and allowed the Holy Spirit to work in him. With the Holy Spirit as our guide, we will put away old habits that are not becoming of Christians. We will strive to be a beacon on a hill for all to see what happens when we accept Jesus and His promises.
1 Tim 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith,
lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. 13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. 17
Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; 18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; 19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.Do you condemn him for suggesting that there is something the rich in this world must do that they may lay hold on eternal life, rather than telling them that they must be completely confident that they already have it?
We are not the judge Amo. If someone tells me they are saved who am I to question their validity? As I pointed out above, you are taught that you must keep the Sabbath in order to be saved. You must tithe in order to be saved. All this garbage came from a woman with no education and a huge desire to be someone great. This was a woman with a severe head injury causing her to do things out of the ordinary. The church she helped found has you believing that you must be Sabbath-observant. Yet we know that Sabbath was part of the covenant that is no longer in existence. We are under the covenant of grace. The priesthood has changed and so has the laws. Ellen White was a fraud and sadly to say the church she helped found promotes her fraud.
Mt 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Have you ever read all the hate filled dogma Ellen wrote about all the other churches? According to her, all churches that do not subscribe to what she taught are Babylon. We are of the devil. We will chase you and catch you and persecute you. Yes, she wrote all that and much more. And the sad part of it all is that you buy into it with all your heart. Ellen's desire was to make you all exclusive. Thank God she has not succeeded in that effort.
Do you condemn the Lord Jesus Christ for suggesting that those who endure to the end will be saved, and not simply stating that all who profess Him are and can be sure that they are and will be saved?
I do not believe in once saved always saved. Accepting Jesus as our Savior does not make us puppets. We are still free to choose. Branches do shrivel up, die and fall from the Tree.
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end
Exhort each other with what? your church chooses to do it with old covenant laws that have been replaced with a new and better covenant, one that is not of works. I beg you to read Gal 3. Those folks were getting along just fine until the Judaizers came along preaching works of the Law to them.
Has your end or the end of this world come yet?
I cannot believe you do not believe Jesus words are a metaphor especially when He adds the word until to the statement.
Go to, proclaim your self assured salvation before the end.
What a sick statement. The reason I am assured of salvation is because of Jesus promises. Self has no part in my salvation. It is a gift. Your SDA cliches are showing
I will lean upon the Lord and pray for the endurance needed from Him to ensure that salvation, not boast that I already have it.
What a terrible way to have to live not knowing or believing the promises Jesus gave us.
Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Amen! His works, not mine.
You may profess whatever you wish in the present, but according to scripture, only those who endure to the end will receive salvation.
That is precisely why I do not believe once saved always saved. You believe you have to do as Ellen assigned to be able to endure to the end. I will stick with Jesus command to love our fellow man as Jesus loves us. I know that I belong to the truth just as John wrote in 2JN3:19-24 19 Our actions will show that we belong to the truth, so we will be confident when we stand before God. 20 Even if we feel guilty, God is greater than our feelings, and he knows everything.
21 Dear friends, if we don't feel guilty, we can come to God with bold confidence. 22 And we will receive from him whatever we ask because we obey him and do the things that please him.
23 And this is his commandment: We must believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey God's commandments remain in fellowship with him, and he with them. And we know he lives in us because the Spirit he gave us lives in us.
God will decide who truly endured. Why do you demand that only those who proclaim absolute surety in their salvation can be saved, when Jesus specifically pointed out that many who professed to be his followers would not be saved. Why do you hold up the proclamation of sinners as the final word or authority pertaining to the same, when scripture clearly identifies God as the final word and authority concerning the same, and declares that many of the lost will falsely proclaim the same?
Why do you twist what I write and I have to explain over again what I really have written? I demand nothing. God is the judge. I am trying to help SDAs know that they can know that they are saved. Living a life not knowing if you made the grade must be awful. It was for me when I was SDA. SDAs put their hope in the writings of Ellen White, I put my trust in Jesus Christ.
Amo wrote:
Self confidence is the problem being addressed, and self distrust is the remedy. Our faith needs to be in Christ, not self feeling or assurance. Peter thought he was ready to die for or with Jesus, but he denied three times instead. Peter had much to learn about himself as we all do. His self confidence in his own faith in Jesus was proved faulty and misplaced. He repented, was forgiven, and appointed an apostle by Jesus Himself. We should not misplace our faith in confident boasting of our own salvation, but rather lean heavily upon Jesus and exalt the salvation He has provided for all who will pick up their crosses and follow Him to the end.
Sorry Amo, You did it again. Your statement is accusing multi-millions of Christians of being reliant on ourselves because we claim the promise Jesus Himself gave to us so plainly. You want us to go through a miserable existence because of your fanatical belief in a head damaged woman over Jesus own words? John 3:16, John 3:18, John 3:36,
John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.
John 6:29 Jesus told them, "This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent."
Multi-Millions of born again Christians and myself believe those promises, you believe in the words of Ellen White and the SDA church.
Beam: # 224
Sorry Amo, You did it again. Your statement is accusing multi-millions of Christians of being reliant on ourselves because we claim the promise Jesus Himself gave to us so plainly. You want us to go through a miserable existence because of your fanatical belief in a head damaged woman over Jesus own words? John 3:16, John 3:18, John 3:36,
John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.
John 6:29 Jesus told them, "This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent."
Multi-Millions of born again Christians and myself believe those promises, you believe in the words of Ellen White and the SDA church.
I am not a SDA and I reject Mrs E.G. White's writings, but you and your rubbish such as here, I won't use for toilet paper. You, your writings, your haughtiness and holiness MAKE ME SICK.
: current occupant2 Sat Mar 09, 2019 - 15:48:14I'm not sure why the saturday sabbath needs to be proclaimed more fully.
I thought it was THE CROSS than need proclaiming to finish the work. - that is the Gospel of the KINGDOM.
It is part of what leads us back to the Creator, so it is part of the gospel..
: Hobie Sat Jan 13, 2024 - 03:34:36It is part of what leads us back to the Creator, so it is part of the gospel..
No. It is not. Paul would have said to this "Foolish Galatian!"
: Texas Conservative Sat Jan 13, 2024 - 06:23:14No. It is not. Paul would have said to this "Foolish Galatian!"
Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come:
and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.Exo 20:Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.What does any of the above scripture have to do with foolish Galatians?
What does faith in God's word concerning the testimony of the fourth commandment have to do with believing one is saved by the law? Nothing.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.Faith in the testimony of the fourth commandment of God, has nothing to do with the foolishness of the Galatians. Believing the testimony of the fourth commandment is the most basic component of faith listed in chapter 11 of the book of Hebrews which is all about faith.
Paul addresses this truth as well, and the very negative effects of denying the testimony of the fourth commandment.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
As is obvious, authentic faith is directly tied to belief in the basic testimony of the fourth commandment of God. That He created, sustains, and has saved this world. The sabbath of God being directly connected to these basic truths by the holy scriptures themselves. How say you, any that keep the fourth commandment by faith in the word of God and admonish others to do so as well, are foolish Galatians? Nonsense. I wonder, do you feel the same about those who think Sunday must be observed, and approve of mandating such by law.
: Amo Sat Jan 13, 2024 - 12:51:44Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Exo 20:Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
What does any of the above scripture have to do with foolish Galatians?
What does faith in God's word concerning the testimony of the fourth commandment have to do with believing one is saved by the law? Nothing.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Faith in the testimony of the fourth commandment of God, has nothing to do with the foolishness of the Galatians. Believing the testimony of the fourth commandment is the most basic component of faith listed in chapter 11 of the book of Hebrews which is all about faith.
Paul addresses this truth as well, and the very negative effects of denying the testimony of the fourth commandment.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
As is obvious, authentic faith is directly tied to belief in the basic testimony of the fourth commandment of God. That He created, sustains, and has saved this world. The sabbath of God being directly connected to these basic truths by the holy scriptures themselves. How say you, any that keep the fourth commandment by faith in the word of God and admonish others to do so as well, are foolish Galatians? Nonsense. I wonder, do you feel the same about those who think Sunday must be observed, and approve of mandating such by law.
If you say that keeping the sabbath is part of the gospel, you are a foolish Galatian.
Galatians 51 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
: Texas Conservative Sat Jan 13, 2024 - 20:29:26If you say that keeping the sabbath is part of the gospel, you are a foolish Galatian.
Galatians 5
1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
Jas 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called? 8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do,
as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
So be it unto you, as your gospel declares. That submitting to the Ten Commandments of God, spoken by His own mouth to humanity, and written with His own finger, represent a yoke of slavery.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.........
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,
which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints:
here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
: Amo Sun Jan 14, 2024 - 09:42:41Jas 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called? 8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
So be it unto you, as your gospel declares. That submitting to the Ten Commandments of God, spoken by His own mouth to humanity, and written with His own finger, represent a yoke of slavery.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.........
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
A recipe of scriptures that prove your premise. It's called Eisegesis.
Attempting to put Sabbath keeping into the gospel of Jesus Christ is another gospel.
: beam Sat Mar 02, 2019 - 09:26:57Yes, that is true. You made Him out a liar when you wrote that the ceremonial part of the Law ended with the destruction of Jerusalem. If you insist on believing not one jot nor one tittle can pass from the Sinai covenant and deny the word "until" and then tell us the ceremonial part of the law ended you make Jesus out a liar.
Flop, We all know Jesus didn't contradict Himself. You did the contradicting. First, you denied the word "until" and then denied not one jot or tittle passing from the Sinai covenant. Furthermore, in your statement below you deny that "Heaven and Earth passing away is a metaphor. All this to try to defend your churches false belief. I am amazed.
Another false belief your church is promoting. Where there is no law there is no sin. There was no command for man to observe any day until after the Red Sea. If there were a command to observe the Sabbath why didn't God stop the Exodus during the escape and have the Israelites observe it?
Who has given you or your church the right to put a 10 in front of commandments and spread this falsehood to all you and your church has spread it? That is adding to scripture.
You can deny all you want, tell me it is in my mind and that I am rejecting truth and defending lies all you want. The fact is that you have your head in the sand. Until you recognize the word "fulfill" you will be denying the real truth. The 10 commandments have been done away as the guide of the Israelites and the Holy Spirit, the gift given to all mankind, is now our guide into righteousness. Simple isn't it?
Quoting Isiah really doesn't impress me. In chapter 65 he writes that man will live to be over 100 before he dies and some other statements that are not congruent to what we believe. He writes that we won't remember, but then writes that we will go out on the Sabbath and walk among the worm-ridden bodies of those that didn't make it to Heaven.
2 Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.[/color]
Why do you separate Jesus' statement regarding the passing away of heaven and earth from the above scriptural testimony? Is it not in order to defend what you ave chosen? You must separate them, and insist that they are separate, to defend your position. It is not logical to do so, it is simply necessary to your position to do so. Are all the above statements of scripture simply metaphor?
Quote all you want, but you have not proved that Heaven and Earth has to pass before the old covenant ends because you refuse to accept 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Either all the law is still intact or all the law has been fulfilled. Believe that truth and it will unshackle you from the clutches of Adventism
I think you will soon see Christ Himself and the error you have followed, but will it be too late will be the question..