Hi to all and in John 20:22 it show that Jesus is speaking to the disciples and Jesus says to them RECEIVE YE HOLY SPIRIT !!
Then in verse 23 says , WHOSOEVER SINS ye Remit , they are Remitted , whosoever SINS ye RETAIN , they are RETAINED !!
So when could man FORGIVE SINS ??
And HOW can that be DONE ??
Why can not MAN do this TODAY ?
Remember that Heb 6:1 we are to FORSAKE the DOCTRINES of Christ !
What say you ?
dan p
Notes from the ESV:
JOHN— NOTE ON 20: 23 The expressions they are forgiven and it is withheld both represent perfect-tense verbs in Greek and could also be translated, "they have been forgiven" and "it has been withheld," since the perfect gives the sense of completed past action with continuing results in the present. The idea is not that individual Christians or churches have authority on their own to forgive or not forgive people, but rather that as the church proclaims the gospel message of forgiveness of sins in the power of the Holy Spirit (see v. 22), it proclaims that those who believe in Jesus have their sins forgiven, and that those who do not believe in him do not have their sins forgiven— which simply reflects what God in heaven has already done (cf. note on Matt. 16: 19).
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You are confused about the Book of Hebrews. There's no such directive that we leave the teachings of Christ behind. We are to leave the elementary things behind. For example, an elementary thing like water baptism is turned in to a major doctrine for the New Testament church at a site like this which is oriented toward denominations like the Churches of Christ who make water baptism a major doctrine when it's not presented that way in the Scriptures.
The theme of Hebrews is "Jesus is better." Chapter Six is about those who left the Law behind at first, but returned to their old ways of being under the authority of Moses and the Mosaic Law. They failed to see that Jesus Christ had brought about a better covenant - the New Covenant. The Old Testament Law brought condemnation. Christ said that His yoke was easy and his burden was light. Christ Himself had done what needed to be done to reconcile mankind back to the Father. Read all of the Book of Hebrews. The book is a directive to the Jews who would not leave the Law behind, and it is also a directive to anyone who does not understand the New Covenant and the new Great High Priest, Mediator, and Intercessor. It is Christ's righteousness that has reconciled us to God Almighty. We cannot save anyone, including ourselves.
And the only verb that is in the Greek PERFECT TENSE are the words THEY ARE RETAINED and just means that they refused repentance , fron the point on they are LOST FOREVER !!
In John 20:22 where Jesus says RECEIVE YE / LAMBANO is IN THE SECOND AORIST TENSE or a one time action to REMIT SINS during there life time and this authority was not transportable !!
So how did nthe disciples REMIT SINS ??
dan p
Dan, why should anyone answer anymore of your posts when you refuse to answer posts that ask you to deal with certain things? You make claims that are challenged and refuted and you just ignore them and move on to your next error. You are unteachable, and an apparent waste of time.
RC
So , yell me what did I not address and I agreed with you that The PERFECT TENSE IS USED and there are 3 verbs in verse 23 , and the SECOND AORIST TENSE and also the PRESENT TENSE and the AORIST TENSE began during then apostles Peters time and the CONTINUOUS action also during Peter's monistry !!
Then I addressed Heb 6:1 and 2 where Israel is to LEAVE . AND FORSAKE the Doctrines of Christ and the that LEAVINGS also include BAPTISMS and the text says so !!
dan p
: dan p Mon Apr 01, 2019 - 12:28:23
So , yell me what did I not address and I agreed with you that The PERFECT TENSE IS USED and there are 3 verbs in verse 23 , and the SECOND AORIST TENSE and also the PRESENT TENSE and the AORIST TENSE began during then apostles Peters time and the CONTINUOUS action also during Peter's monistry !!
Then I addressed Heb 6:1 and 2 where Israel is to LEAVE . AND FORSAKE the Doctrines of Christ and the that LEAVINGS also include BAPTISMS and the text says so !!
dan p
dan p,
You didn't respond to my explanation of Hebrews 6:1-2 in your DID PAUL WATER BAPTIZE ?? thread.
In addition to what I said there, keep in mind that the list of things the writer is talking about were believed in and practiced by those particular Christians who were previously practicing Judaism. Note that it is baptisms (plural), not just baptism. This more than likely refers to ritual Jewish cleansings, and not necessarily the baptism Jesus commanded for all.
Regardless of anything else, the Hebrew writer is telling the readers to move on past those things and mature in their understanding of Christ and in their practice of His will, in particular to how they face persecution due to their being converted to Christ. The letter is a warning against falling away.
The writer is not telling them in any way to forsake the doctrines of Christ.
So , what does LEAVING / the Doctrines of Christ then mean !!
The Greek word that is used in Heb 6:2 BAPTISMS / BAPTISMOS is the same Greek word used in Heb 9:10 BAPTISMOS !!
And we know that Israel rejected their MESSIAH and killed Him and Israel was set a aside , YES or NO ?
So how did the DISCIPLES REMIT SINS , which you have avoided and tell us all HOW ??
It is obvious that John 20:22, 23 is speaking to Jews and NOT the Body of Christ !!
dan p
: dan p Mon Apr 01, 2019 - 17:36:26
So , what does LEAVING / the Doctrines of Christ then mean !!
The Greek word that is used in Heb 6:2 BAPTISMS / BAPTISMOS is the same Greek word used in Heb 9:10 BAPTISMOS !!
My last post above and the post on the following link answers your questions about Hebrews 6:1-2.
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/debates/did-paul-water-baptize/msg1055135299/#msg1055135299 (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/debates/did-paul-water-baptize/msg1055135299/#msg1055135299)
And we know that Israel rejected their MESSIAH and killed Him and Israel was set a aside , YES or NO ?
That has nothing to do with what the Hebrew writer is saying to his target readers in Hebrews 6.
: dan p Mon Apr 01, 2019 - 17:36:26
So how did the DISCIPLES REMIT SINS , which you have avoided and tell us all HOW ??
It is obvious that John 20:22, 23 is speaking to Jews and NOT the Body of Christ !!
dan p
Actually the passage has Jesus speaking to the apostles, and I believe it would be going too far to say that this applies to anybody else.
The purpose of the giving of the Spirit in verse 22 is tied to what He is stating in the following verse. Nobody but God can forgive sins. What Jesus was stating to the apostles was not the authority to forgive or not forgive. Rather, it was the ability, by the Spirit, to know God's will in the moment, regarding sins being forgiven or not. At least, that's how I see it. When the apostles proclaimed sins being forgiven or retained, they were stating what God had already decided.
Another view on this is that the apostles were given to proclaim the terms of forgiveness, or the lack thereof, with authority. Basically, a pumped-up preaching of the gospel. ::preachit::
: soterion Mon Apr 01, 2019 - 19:23:34
The purpose of the giving of the Spirit in verse 22 is tied to what He is stating in the following verse. Nobody but God can forgive sins. What Jesus was stating to the apostles was not the authority to forgive or not forgive. Rather, it was the ability, by the Spirit, to know God's will in the moment, regarding sins being forgiven or not. At least, that's how I see it. When the apostles proclaimed sins being forgiven or retained, they were stating what God had already decided.
I think that is insightful.
So in John 20:22 Jesus gives the apostles the POWER OF HOLY SPIRIT !!
Then in verse 23 , Whosoever SINS YE REMIT , they are REMITTED UNTO THEM , and you said that is not true ?
You say that only God can forgive SINS , yet the Pharisee's house in Luke 7:36-50 , also questioned Jesus's authority to forgive sin as you have done !!
Notice Acts 2:38 Then Peter SAID / PHEMI ( which is in the Greek Imperfect tense and Peter stopped repeating it bY Acts 28:28 ) REPENT / METAMOEO ( and is in the AORIST TENSE and is Peter's ministry a one time ministry ) an be BAPTIZED ( and here Peter is WATER BAPTIZING everyn one of you in THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST , for the FORGIVENESS of SINS ( here Peter is REMITTING SINS , and ye SHALL RECEIVE / LAMBANO which is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE and the FUTUREN TENSE is in MARK 16:15-18 which is called by SCHOLARS the FAR VIEW !!
Since Israel killed there MESSIAH Israel was set ASIDE as written in 2 Cor 3 :13-16 , and Isa 6 and Luke 13:6-9 and in Matt 3:10 !!
Acts is called the NEAR VIEW !!
Because of Israel rejection of Christ , He appointed another apostle called Paul with a new message , called the DISPENSATION of the Grace of God , Col 1:25 , 1 Cor 9:17 , Eph 3:2 !!
BAPTISIM is how they REMITTED SINS !!
dan p
: dan p Tue Apr 02, 2019 - 13:52:32
So in John 20:22 Jesus gives the apostles the POWER OF HOLY SPIRIT !!
Then in verse 23 , Whosoever SINS YE REMIT , they are REMITTED UNTO THEM , and you said that is not true ?
The apostles did not have the power of the Holy Spirit. They were given the Spirit to do what Jesus told them to do. I never said that what Jesus gave them to do was not true, but rather your interpretation of it is not true.
You say that only God can forgive SINS , yet the Pharisee's house in Luke 7:36-50 , also questioned Jesus's authority to forgive sin as you have done !!
Only God can forgive sins. That is an absolute rock solid truth. Now, since Jesus is God, then He can forgive.
Notice Acts 2:38 Then Peter SAID / PHEMI ( which is in the Greek Imperfect tense and Peter stopped repeating it bY Acts 28:28 ) REPENT / METAMOEO ( and is in the AORIST TENSE and is Peter's ministry a one time ministry ) an be BAPTIZED ( and here Peter is WATER BAPTIZING everyn one of you in THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST , for the FORGIVENESS of SINS ( here Peter is REMITTING SINS , and ye SHALL RECEIVE / LAMBANO which is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE and the FUTUREN TENSE is in MARK 16:15-18 which is called by SCHOLARS the FAR VIEW !!
Peter was not remitting sins; he was declaring the terms of forgiveness by which God will forgive according to His will.
Since Israel killed there MESSIAH Israel was set ASIDE as written in 2 Cor 3 :13-16 , and Isa 6 and Luke 13:6-9 and in Matt 3:10 !!
Acts is called the NEAR VIEW !!
Because of Israel rejection of Christ , He appointed another apostle called Paul with a new message , called the DISPENSATION of the Grace of God , Col 1:25 , 1 Cor 9:17 , Eph 3:2 !!
BAPTISIM is how they REMITTED SINS !!
dan p
If Israel was set aside, there would be no offer of salvation in Christ to them.
Paul's message was not a different message from Peter or anybody else. Peter and Paul both preached the grace of God offered to all through Jesus Christ.
And Acts 19 and 20 I believe says that Israel had their opportunity and she was set aside !!
Please show a verse where Peter preached the same message as Paul !!
We see in Gal 2:12-14 and in verse 13 and the rest of the Jews were PRETENDED with Peter, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their HYPOCRISY !!
dan p