THE GREAT DEBATE ...THE RAPTURE
I'm not sure if anyone is aware of the debate, but there has been one going on for fairly a while flanked by Don Preston and Ed Stevens, two full Preterist, on a first century Rapture. I'm not certain if I can post the PDF links here in this thread, but they can be found on the internet if anyone cares to view them.
I am also curious how a PP would view this great or not so great interchange. So I took the liberty to post a section of them here.
DON'S FIRST AFFIRMATIVE POSITION
"So, my position is that at the coming of the Lord in AD 70 the fellowship that was forfeited (lost) through the sin and the death of Adam (and Eve) was restored. Heaven and earth were reunited in fellowship. It is my contention that since it was fellowship between man on earth and God in heaven that was lost, that there was no need whatsoever for any of the saints (living in AD 70 or at any other time) to be "raptured" removed from the earth. All that was needed, all that was foretold, was that the fellowship between man on earth and God in heaven would be restored. This goes to the very definition of "parousia" the presence of Christ."
ED'S FIRST NEGATIVE OPENING STATEMENT
"Preston. His reputation as a highly-skilled debater is well-known and well-deserved. And I greatly appreciate Don's affirmation that he and I "are both full preterists," especially since some of his CBV associates have called me a partial preterist. Don is right about that!
When Don and I collaborated to debate two Amillennialists in New York City (April 6, 2002), it was fascinating to watch as Don overwhelmed our opponents with negative arguments. Even when Don was allegedly on the affirmative, he was still dumping boatloads of negatives on those guys. I almost felt sorry for them. His strategy then, as it is here also, is to put his opponent on the defensive as quickly as possible, and then keep him there for the duration of the debate.
Don does not like to be on the defensive, and neither do I. Skilled debaters minimize the exposure of their view so that their opponents cannot easily see it, analyze it, and challenge it."
Hi Larry H,
I'm trying to respond to this post, but the system is fouling up and keeps erasing what I write. Not sure what the deal is...
Hi again Larry H,
Okay, so I'll try cell phone texting to respond here...maybe this will work instead. I'm still not able to send you a pm in your full inbox, but I already went digging for the Stevens/Preston rapture debate and read the better part of both men's affirmative and negative positions to start with.
They are both very erudite speakers, but Stevens seems to have a bit of an advantage, since he pins down the nature of the death of Adam (both spiritual AND physical) as an essential foundational doctrine before we ever get to what "Death" the rapture delivered the saints from.
Though I find points of agreement with both men's arguments, yet I believe they are both wrong when it comes to understanding just who the "LIVING AND REMAINING" ones in I Thess 4 are. These are not living saints who had never died that are spoken of in this text. They are resurrected saints who had been MADE ALIVE who had "remained" on earth, such as the Matt. 27:52-53 saints and others like Lazarus who were raised to life again BEFORE AD 70's mass resurrection, but who had remained on earth in that resurrected state until then.
I covered this subject at some length on a couple links at this GC site, if you are interested in a different presentation of this topic:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/we-shall-not-all-sleep-means-none-of-us-shall-sleep/
And this one, from comment #14 all the way to #88:
http://www.gracentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/the-false-doctrine-of-the-secret-rapture-75745/
I also wrote quite a bit on Adam M's website as well about who participated in the AD70 rapture, on a post he wrote Comparing Matthew 24 and I Thessalonians 4-5.
I've also covered the rapture subject often on the Full Preterist Covenant Creation "DID" website of Tim M's, which you may be familiar with. I just wrote a few comments there this week on a "Resurrection" post, as well as a blog post of mine on the subject of How Many Ages Are There?
Hi 3 Res
Is your computer ready for some chat... hope so...You got my attention
I am interested in the subject which no one seems to touch. The Matt 27's resurrected saints, messengers, coming out of their graves.
There was lots of stuff to sift through in your presentation in Adam M site, so forgive me if my question will be off base.
If I am reading you right, why are these 144 k resurrected from the dead you entitled the first fruits that came out of their graves following the "Messenger of the Covenant's Mal.3:1 bodily resurrection "called traveling strangers."
If they were grieved by the thes brothers and sister? Considering that this is the same group mentioned in Matt. 27. 3 John Would they have not returned to their home of celebrating relatives?
Since there is so much information to take in, can you give me a short synopsis of what your suggesting.
Just curious have you read the article expectation demands a rapture. In short why was there no documentation from the first century saints post AD 70. Had they not witnessed and experienced the Parousia episode as promised by the Lord. That would be a natural question an atheist would thrive on. Matthew 24:25-30
Kind Regards
Larry
Hi Larry H,
I'm on the road to NC today, so I'll have to be brief for the moment. The Matthew 27 resurrected saints are a fascinating subject. Full Preterists usually don't like discussing them.
They were the "laborers" sent into the white fields of the "harvest" as evangelists; an answer to the prayer Jesus told His disciples to pray for. They are the "multitude of captives" in Ephesians 4 that Jesus brought with Him out of the grave as He ascended. They were composed of a variety of prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers, given as gifts to men of the early church to help in the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.
There were nothing but RESURRECTED saints who were to participate in the AD 70 rapture. NO TRANSLATION OF LIVING SAINTS. That idea is nowhere presented in the scriptures. And resurrected individuals aren't necessarily visible to everybody at all times, as the resurrected Jesus shows us after He was raised. He only showed Himself to those who had been "chosen beforehand of God" to be witnesses.
Same thing in the AD 70 resurrection and rapture of the resurrected saints. Jesus promised it would be visible to SOME of those standing in front of Him, but that's not everybody in the world without exception that saw His return back then. It was selective revelation, of which we have many examples in the OT and NT.
Hi 3 Res
I find it intriguing, and you got my attention, I put forth some verses to see if I am overstepping or on the same page of the concept. Who were they, and why were they risen out of their graves. Was it beyond to prove Jesus was the Son of God.
They came as strangers to the first century known world following His, Jesus, Physical resurrection and were the first fruits, 144k, to be ruptured in AD 70.Their message, the Gospel was to carry it to the Nations.
Messenger/angel Same word
mal'ak OT:4397 mal'ak (mal-awk'); from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God, i.e. an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher):KJV - ambassador, ANGEL, king, MESSENGER. Strong's
Revelation 20:1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. NKJV
Angel aggelos NT:32 aggelos (ang'-el-os); from aggello [probably derived from NT:71; compare NT:34] (to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor: KJV - angel, messenger.Strong's
"Messenger/ANGEL of the covenant" Jesus Christ is the one who binds Satan Matthew 12:24-29
Malachi 3:1 The Coming Messenger "Behold, I send My messenger/ANGEL, And he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger/ANGEL of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming," Says the LORD of hosts. NKJV
Could it be these are those who God chose.
Revelation 2:1"To the angel /Messenger of the church of Ephesus NKJV
Revelation 2:8 And to the angel /Messenger of the church in Smyrna NKJV
Revelation 2:12 "And to the angel/Messenger of the church in Pergamos NKJV
Revelation 2:18 "And to the angel /Messenger of the church in Thyatira write, NKJV
Revelation 3:1And to the angel /Messenger of the church in Sardis NKJV
Revelation 3:7 "And to the angel/Messenger of the church in Philadelphia NKJV
Revelation 3:14"And to the angel/Messenger of the church of the Laodiceans NKJV
Hi Larry,
Another thing about the argument from silence that Ed Stevens employs about an AD 70 rapture. It presumes several things:
First, simply because we don't have a physical record from any first-century saints that describe seeing Jesus physically return in AD 70, this does not mean such a record was never made. We have history of censored Christian documents and book-burnings, don't we? Who can say if such evidence of Jesus' return was made and then destroyed by anti-Christian authorities? Especially Jewish opponents of the early church. We know they tried desperately to squash the news about Christ's resurrection by lying about the empty tomb.
How about the possibility of documentary evidence about the raptured resurrected saints being accidentally lost or destroyed as well? Also, what if a document or other evidence is still yet to be discovered, like the Dead Sea scrolls were?
If God was interested in giving us this evidence, perhaps He will yet allow such to be uncovered by archaeologists. Perhaps for now, He is waiting to see if those who read His promises of His first-century return are willing to take His word predicting it, without putting Him on the witness stand and demanding physical proof after the fact.
There is a post in this Preterist forum at this link that you may be interested in that gives photo evidence of the rapture location from AD 70.
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/ye-shall-not-flee-to-azal/
This post lines up with the Zechariah 14:4-5 prophecy that is actually describing an earthquake at the Mount of Olives location. It produced a landslide in AD 70 that filled up the valley at the time Christ physically stood on that mountain, gathered all the resurrected saints, and returned to heaven with them. The landslide rubble is still there. Actually, a COUPLE layers of rubble on top of each other, that archaeologists have determined occurred first during King Uzziah's time, as well as in the first century.
That post also gave its source for this earthquake evidence, which I have taken time to read also. It's not written by a Preterist, by the way. I think this link will take you to that information:
http://zechariahfourteenfive.files.wordpress.com/
What Ed Stevens also forgets is the scripture fact that not every manifestation of something miraculous is seen by everyone, or even perceived by all the 5 senses. Think of Balaam and his ass with different perceptions of that angelic vision. Think of Paul on the Damascus road who saw and heard the risen Christ. His companions saw the light, but did not share in hearing Christ's voice in that vision. Think of the rising Christ who emerged from the tomb a few feet away from the guards, who perceived nothing at all that Saturday evening.
We also have the story in the gospels of God speaking to Jesus from heaven. Some said they heard thunder at that moment. Others said an angel spoke to Jesus. Different perceptions, same occasion.
How about Peter being led by the angel past the prison guards in the middle of the night, who saw nothing? And the prophet who saw the armies of the Lord, but had to ask God to open the eyes of his servant so he could also see them? All of these examples show selective revelation that God either allows or doesn't allow.
Same thing for the rapture of the resurrected saints in AD 70. Any saint's glorified, resurrected body, (just like Christ), has the option of invisibility. The "every eye" that saw Christ return was a very SPECIFIC group of people; namely, "those who pierced Him" - not everybody on the entire planet. I covered that very point in a post at this link:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/and-every-eye-shall-see-him-how-scripture-defines-every-eye/
To my mind, if Daniel 12 promised a resurrection that Daniel would share in at the very end of those 1,335 days, then that's exactly what happened. And by the time markers in the Daniel 12 context, that resurrection with its rapture was on Pentecost Day in AD 70.
Just reading your reply #5 above...
You are correct that part of the reason the Matthew 27:52-53 saints were raised along with Christ was to prove He was the Son of God. Romans 1:3-4 says this very thing. "Concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord...declared to be the SON OF GOD with power, according to the spirit of holiness, BY THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD" (the resurrection of the Matthew 27:52-53 saints out of the grave).
Ordinarily, this phrase would be rendered "the resurrection FROM AMONG the dead", which would mean that Christ alone arose out from among the rest of the dead which were left behind in the grave. Not in this verse. Instead, this Jesus was declared to be the Son of God with power because he not only raised Himself by the Spirit's power, he staged the resurrection of the 144,000 First-fruits at the same time. That's real power on display.
I've considered your suggestion that the "angels" of the seven churches are some of the 144,000 Firstfruits, Matthew 27 saints, but I'm just not sure if the reproofs Jesus was handing out to those 7 churches were to be directed to the church itself or to the leader of it - the "messenger" over each of them. Resurrected saints need no reproofs, so these particular "messengers" may be the ordinary believers who were shepherds over each of these churches in Revelation.
Hi 3 res
Just to let you know I am still looking into your interesting subject matter Here is a piece of an article I came across. Since I got to run I will have to get back to you latter after finishing the article. You are not alone trying to pin down "What happened to the resurrected saints"
Matthew 27:51-54
Introduction
In my younger days in Jerusalem, I enjoyed exploring the ancient burial caves throughout the city. I also had the privilege of working with, and learning from, Dr. Gabriel Barkay. In my estimation, he is the world's expert on the history and archaeology of Jerusalem. Among other things, we surveyed together a number of burial caves in and around Jerusalem, mostly of the Iron Age (the period of the Judean Monarchy), and even excavated a handful of them. The most important caves were at Ketef Hinnom (the "Shoulder of Hinnom"), below the St. Andrew's Scottish Church, on the edge of the Hinnom Valley. This is where the two oldest Biblical texts found to date were discovered (Franz 2005).
In my studies of the funerary practices and burials in Jerusalem, one passage of Scripture especially interested me as I visited ancient tombs in Jerusalem. It is Matt. 27:51-54:
Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, 'Truly this was the Son of God'!
I would like to examine this passage in light of what we know of Jewish burial practices in Jerusalem during the Second Temple period, and then ask two questions, "What happened to these resurrected saints?"
Second Temple Burial Practices
A Jewish person who died in Jerusalem during the Second Temple period was usually buried before sundown, or at least within 24 hours of death. The body was taken to the family's rock-cut tomb where it was washed and wrapped in burial shrouds and placed in a burial niche called a kok (kokimplural) that was in the tomb, or on a bench in the tomb called an arcosolia. The body was left to decay.
Hi again 3 Res Sorry for the long break in proceedings
Consider the mail was likely dispatched, received and read by the Messengers/angels of the Seven Churches of the Apocalypse. Perchance it was not them reproved, but a correspondence, kind of salutation with the help of Christ since there never was, just what the doctor ordered, a perfect church without its setbacks
Acts 1:9 references that Jesus was "received in a cloud," ,not hid in a cloud by other translation, may well be the same "clouds of witnesses in" Heb. 12:1, and the saints He returned with Zec. 14:5 "" all the saints with You"
Your thoughts
In Christ
Larry
Hi Larry,
Concerning the Jewish burial practices in relation to this rapture theme...
I looked up some articles on the "Ketef Hinnom" findings you mentioned that identified those two silver scrolls as the oldest copy of OT scripture from the First Temple period. Fascinating. I found a certain article about that discovery in the Baptist Press (bpnews.net - " 'Silver scrolls' are oldest O.T. scripture, archaeologist says", by Gary D Myers, Feb 27, 2004).
It says that the two scrolls were found in a hewn-stone burial cave bone repository in the Ketef Hinnom site, on the southwest side of Jerusalem's perimeter. Whatever bones were found in a pile with these two silver scrolls from the First Temple period, they belonged to unregenerate Jews who didn't participate in the AD70 rapture of the resurrected saints.
Immortality of the human body would have been conditional on whether they were children of faith or not. If not, the dead bodies of mankind are left to perish in the grave, as those human remains from the "Ketef Hinnom" burial site would be an example.
Have you done any research yourself, Larry, about the ossuaries or bone boxes that date to pre-AD70 times? I read that most of the ossuaries are empty when found, either due to theft or vandalism OR...I propose that the reason some are found empty is because of the AD70 resurrection, when the bodies of all saints who died prior to AD70 were raptured to heaven.
The Caiphas ossuary, for example, was found to contain a variety of human remains from several individuals; 2 infants, 2 teen-aged boys, an adult woman, and 1 male around 60 years old. If the bones of the aged male included in that ossuary truly were those of Caiphas, then we can say that Caiphas was not a child of faith, and therefore was left to perish after the AD70 resurrection, as evidence of conditional immortality.
In the case of the infant remains in the Caiphas ossuary, they too would not be those of a child of God. Infancy doesn't guarantee a place in heaven, but neither does the myth of eternal torment await them. To perish is to never have life anymore of any kind, which is a destiny for them that is still in line with Christ's reputation for mercy.
The Wikipedia and Times article about the finding of the Caiphas ossuary says that when the burial cave in The Peace Forest was opened by a bulldozer, that the archaeologists discovered that the cave contained 12 ossuaries in four niches, the most ornate one having Joseph Caiphas' name inscribed on it in two places. Six of these ossuaries they said had been "disturbed by grave robbers". My proposition is that those six "disturbed" ossuaries had once held the bones of saints, who then physically left those ossuraries in the AD 70 resurrection, once they had been "changed" in the twinkling of an eye.
Otherwise, why would grave robbers have left undisturbed the most impressive, valuable-looking ossuary of Caiphas, and taken the bones out of just six of these boxes, leaving the other six alone?
Another set of two burial caves that are even more interesting are the ones Abraham bought for burying Sarah and the rest of his family in Genesis 23:17 (Machpelah - meaning "double cave") One location of a set of burial caves meeting all the criteria of scripture's description of this site was found to be completely empty, though there was allotted space for all Abraham's immediate family to be laid out. I didn't copy the link, but I could go looking for it again.
Larry, in response to your reply #9 above...
You may be right; it could have been that Christ's REPROOFS in Revelation 2-3 were directed to the church ASSEMBLIES themselves, and not the 7 "angels" of those two churches. It's very possible that some of the resurrected Matthew 27 saints became the "messengers" or "angels" tasked with giving and receiving Christ's messages found in Revelation to each of those 7 churches.
Documentary evidence of this possibility is found in Eusebius' single quote taken from Quadratus, the earliest known Christian apologist. Quadratus wrote a letter to the emperor Hadrian at the beginning of his reign (around AD 117) in an attempt to verify the genuine nature of the miracles Christ had performed while on earth. Christ was no charlatan or imposter, as Quadratus attempted to prove to Hadrian in his defense of the faith.
"Our Savior's deeds were always there to see, for they were true: those who were cured or those who rose from the dead were seen not only when they were cured or raised but were constantly there to see, not only while the Savior was living among us, BUT ALSO FOR SOME TIME AFTER HIS DEPARTURE. Some of them in fact, survived right up to our own time."
Since those saints resurrected by Christ would have been raptured to heaven in AD 70, (as in the "living and remaining" ones in I Thess. 4), it would appear from Quadratus' quote that the ones who "survived right up to our own time" (at some time before AD117) would have been those who were CURED - not the ones raised from the dead. This is mathematically possible for a very young person healed by Christ to have lived into the very early second century, I would say.
What this testimony in Quadratus' quote does confirm for us is that those who Christ raised from the dead (as the Matt 27 saints were) had remained "for some time after his departure." Meaning that quite possibly (as being the "apostles, prophets, evangelists...pastors, and teachers" that were given to edify and perfect the saints - Ephesians 4:8-12), the Matthew 27 saints could have been overseeing the activities of the 7 churches in Asia as those "messengers" or "angels" of the 7 churches.
I do believe that the Matthew 27 resurrected saints were being referred to in Hebrews 12:1 as the "so great a cloud of witnesses" that were surrounding the believers at that time on earth. After all, if Paul in Romans 8:23 said that the church "HAD THE FIRST-FRUITS...", that means the First-fruits saints resurrected from the dead were in fellowship among the early church at that time.
As for who or what accompanied Christ in His bodily return to the Mount of Olives in Zech. 14:5 and Jude verse 14, those who came with Him from heaven are called "holy ones". In scripture, we know this term can refer to either perfected saints or to celestial angels, according to context. Since we have Jude 14 mentioning the Lord coming with "ten thousand of His holy ones", that particular number is indicative of the ten thousand "holy ones" coming with God at Sinai when He gave the law to Israel.
In other words, I think the context favors 10,000 CELESTIAL angels returning with Christ to the Mount of Olives, the same as in Psalms 68:17 LXX. "The chariots of God are ten thousand fold, thousands of rejoicing ones: the Lord is among them, in Sina, in the holy place."
We are told that nobody ever ascended to heaven in a resurrected state until the end of the Great Tribulation's 7 plagues were done and the resurrection in AD 70 had occurred. Rev. 15:8 says that "no man was able to enter into the temple" (in heaven) "till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled." That means the Matthew 27 resurrected saints (or any others such as Lazarus) were not allowed into the temple in heaven until it was opened in Revelation 11:19, when the time of the dead came to be judged and rewarded.
Christ also confirmed this restricted access to heaven for resurrected saints in John 3:13 when speaking to Nicodemus. "And NO MAN HATH ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of Man which is in heaven." That restriction even applied to Elijah and Enoch too, which I can prove from scripture if needed.
What WAS allowed access to heaven's temple from the time of Christ's resurrection onwards was the SOULS or spirits of the righteous. ("...absent from the body...present with the Lord", and "...blessed are the dead who die in the Lord FROM HENCEFORTH ..."
John saw in Rev 6:9 the SOULS of a group under the altar who were slain for the word of God and the testimony which they held. These were each given white robes (the sign of the "righteousness of saints" - Rev. 19:8 - in a resurrected body of perfection. In other words, these under the altar in Rev. 6:9 are also the Matthew 27 saints.)
Instead of being given access to heaven's temple in their resurrected state, the Rev. 6:9 martyrs were told to "rest yet for a little season" (while Satan was loosed on earth for that little season from AD 33 until AD 66 when he was imprisoned in Jerusalem - Rev. 18:2). During Satan's "little season" from AD 33 -66, the fellowservants of those under the altar were "ABOUT TO BE KILLED", just like the already-resurrected Matthew 27 group of Rev. 6:9.
In other words, at the time the Matthew 27 saints were raised to life, the "fellowservant" Christians of the early church were "ABOUT TO BE KILLED" in several persecution periods at the hands of the Jewish authorities starting with Stephen's martyrdom, and including Nero's 42 month killing spree launched against Christians after the AD 64 fire at Rome, which they were blamed for.
Once that "little season" of Satanic oppression was past, the resurrection and rapture of AD 70 would "gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven" (the souls of the righteous dead) "and which are on earth" (the resurrected Matthew 27 saints and any others like them who had remained on earth until then, plus the newly-resurrected saints) "even in Him" (Ephesians 1:10).
Ephesians 1:10's "gathering together" is the same joining together of the different groups of resurrected saints described in the I Thess. 4 "rapture" passage, who meet the Lord together in the air.
This isn't the usual pre-mil interpretation of the rapture with its mistaken "translation of living saints", but it's what scripture describes. We must ALL die ONCE; there's no escaping this result of the Fall. Therefore, NO mass translations of the living saints were promised to occur at either Christ's second coming in AD 70, or His future 3rd coming at the end of the New Covenant Ages.
: 3 Resurrections Mon Apr 29, 2019 - 19:29:28We must ALL die ONCE; there's no escaping this result of the Fall.
1Co 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, Physical death is NOT the result of "the Fall", either Adam's fall or your fall. Physical death is the natural condition of the physical universe as God created it. Nothing physical is infinite; physical is finite.
Hi 4WD, I'm going to halfway agree with you on this. True, physical death was part of the natural biological cycle of the animal world as originally created prior to the Fall. None of the animal world were ever given a soul with moral choices.
Adam and Eve were created in what we would call a probationary standing as far as Death was concerned. As long as complete obedience was maintained with that free-will choice they were given, they shared in the death-free condition by the living breath God had imparted to them, unlike the animal world.
Once Adam and Eve abandoned their obedient status before God by that single act, in essence, they "jumped ship" into the shark-infested waters of a death-filled animal-like existence; separated from their Source of immortal life that they had once enjoyed full communion with. Their choice, not God's.
Free will is an addictive poison to fallen mankind. We need salvation from it, which we will receive in our final glorified state. The physical will then be changed from "finite", as you put it, into "infinite" immortality in Christ.
The I Cor. 15:51 verse you are giving is directed to the SAINTS ONLY. THEY are all going to be changed AFTER DEATH by the time of the final resurrection. ALL OF THEM, without a single exception. I Cor. 15:51 is not describing a "translation" of the ordinary living bodies of Christians. It's describing the change for the DEAD righteous ones into immortal, physical beings by the Spirit's power that now lives within us. Look at the context. Carefully.
This final state of salvation for the saints will be even better than an Eden-like existence, since there will be no further possible risk of another Fall at that point.
HI 4WD
As I understand it this is the arrangement Don Preston takes in the debate, Adam died natural of old age, like the rest of us, since the only death he experienced was spiritual. In like manner in God's view Jesus died spiritually as an atonement for humankind.
He took upon himself all the sins of the world, so cried out why have you forsaken me because God could not look upon His only begotten sin covered Son in that condition. Is this how Eve, with this in mind, understood death in the Garden with her confrontation with Satan.
Hi Larry,
Well, not exactly the point I was trying to make. Adam and Eve would have NEVER PHYSICALLY DIED, as long as they continued to maintain their spotless, sin-free record of obedience. Their ongoing intimate fellowship with a perfect God before the Fall was proof of this.
But even the slightest choice to sin was enough to cause the death of their spirits, and by close association, death of their fleshly bodies also. I compare sin to radiation poisoning. Once exposed, it contaminates everything, with inevitable physical death as a result, in a long, painful process.
As soon as God came in contact with them that very day they sinned, He would have been duty-bound by His promise to slay them both, had He not mercifully provided the substitution of an innocent animal sacrifice instead - by this prolonging the date for their inevitable demise as sinners.
Blood of the innocent must always be shed to provide cover for the guilty - the picture-type provided by the temporary coats of skin God made for them, which looked forward in time to the final perfect substitute.
Wrapped in the hides of the very animals Adam had once been charged to name and have dominion over, their very garments would have been a constant reminder that the innocent had to suffer for their sake.
I can't imagine killing my own trusting pets that I have cared for over many years, in order to wear their fur coats for my only clothing. Must have been a profound lesson that stuck with Adam and Eve forever.
And I would challenge the idea that Jesus died spiritually. His Spirit never died, but went to preach to those "in prison" in the grave during those 3days /3 nights. It was the PHYSICAL shedding of Jesus' innocent BLOOD that brought remission of sins. And that blood HAD TO BE innocent blood, with no spiritual death contaminating it by association, or it would have been a useless sacrifice that didn't accomplish anything for others who were guilty.
: 3 Resurrections Tue Apr 30, 2019 - 09:26:50The I Cor. 15:51 verse you are giving is directed to the SAINTS ONLY. THEY are all going to be changed AFTER DEATH by the time of the final resurrection. ALL OF THEM, without a single exception. I Cor. 15:51 is not describing a "translation" of the ordinary living bodies of Christians. It's describing the change for the DEAD righteous ones into immortal, physical beings by the Spirit's power that now lives within us. Look at the context. Carefully.
It is talking about those still alive at Jesus' second coming.
Hi 4WD,
Sorry, that idea isn't anywhere presented in I Cor. 15. That "change" into incorruptible was spoken of in Job 14:13-15, a very long, long time ago. After describing how he would be brought down to the grave, Job yearned for God to "appoint a set time" when He would "remember" him.
"O, that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me in secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my appointed time will I wait, TILL MY CHANGE COME. Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thy hands."
The "change" was going to be at an appointed time after Job had been laid in the grave, to wait for that change. Same thing in I Cor. 15. When the DEAD were raised and changed to the incorruptible, and immortality was given to those saints who had died, that would be the time when "DEATH is swallowed up in victory". DEATH would lose its sting, and the GRAVE would lose its victory.
This doesn't describe a change for ordinary living believers who haven't passed through the death process yet. There is NO "translation" for the living believers promised in this text, or anywhere else in scripture. It's an idea that has been presumed to be true, and taught by the church for so long, that people don't know any better.
Greeting 3 Res
The animal sacrifice, a temporary fix, in the garden gave Adam and Eve a long life expectancy i.e. 900 years beyond the day they ate the forbidden fruit. Since Christian are pardoned by the atoning sacrifice of Christ, and covered with His blood why are our physical lives on earth not extended?
However if the only death Adam and Eve experienced, a clear conscience, following separation from God, then we do experience only the atonement of peace with God. Heaven and earth now united in fellowship which was once lost is now restored. With the afterlife in view. God first gives it a natural body and raises it a spiritual. body destine to heaven's Royal Household. Shared with the Father and the Son.
On the other hand Ed Steven takes both death's into account, both spiritual and biological, and added another one to the fold. The best of three worlds. Since he spent his time trying to corner Don's first affirmative ,he does not state his own position thus far. Don second affirmative at the time is being viewed by Ed Stevens. Kind of curious to see how this goes. I see a good case for both interpretations at the time.
: 3 Resurrections Tue Apr 30, 2019 - 19:39:31Hi 4WD,
Sorry, that idea isn't anywhere presented in I Cor. 15.
Sorry, that idea is exactly what is presented in 1 Corinthians 15. The entire chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians concerns the resurrection at the second coming of Jesus Christ at the end of the age.
1Co 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
Hi Larry,
Are you asking "Why are our physical lives on earth not EXTENDED?" Or are you really asking "Why are our physical lives on earth not ENDLESS after Christ's atoning sacrifice?" Not sure which you actually have in mind.
The promise we are given is not that "He that believeth on me shall NEVER die". The actual words in the Interlinear are that "He that believeth in me shall not DIE FOREVER." This means that the physical death of believers' bodies does not last forever. We are promised that these bodies, once dead, will he raised by the power of the Spirit and changed in the resurrection so that the SAME BODY becomes IMMORTAL, just like Christ's.
The COMPLETE FELLOWSHIP between Christ Jesus and believers is not restored until they are standing FACE-TO-FACE with each other, with physical union restored as well.
Are husbands and wives in complete fellowship without the union of a physical consummation making them one flesh? Are you saying they should be content with only spiritual fellowship? To say their vows to each other and wave goodbye at the altar? No, the ideal fellowship of a couple should span both realms of the physical and spiritual for there to be complete union.
Same thing with the Lord and His church. The physical is also included to complete the union between them. We currently have the Spirit within us as a PLEDGE, or "EARNEST", or a deposit of our full inheritance (Eph. 1:14), which comes in the resurrection. That resurrection will unite us, body and soul, with Christ Jesus, who still retains His resurrection body today as our representative high priest in heaven.
God exercised His own prerogative to incrementally shorten the lifespans of mankind since the Fall. Actually, this is a mercy, because with added years beyond 70, there is more "labor and sorrow" involved, as scripture tells us.
At the beginning, the world needed above all to be peopled by the original couple, so extended lifespans at that time would have been necessary to get the planet populated. As of now, extended lifespans for that purpose are not as critical as they were in the generations immediately after the Fall.
Even with Christ's atoning sacrifice making us vicariously pure in God's eyes, there are natural effects of contagion by a corrupted Adam generating corrupted children. This has the effect throughout time of poisoning the innocent spirit God gives to each newly-conceived child with the same corrosive, death-dealing effects by association with it. The moment that fresh, innocent spirit from God for the child is placed in the womb of a fallen descendent of Adam, that spirit is contaminated by association with the unclean vessel that receives it. None escape these poisonous effects of "death passed upon all men". However, the saints have assurance that eventually, even though we physically die, that "not an hair of your head shall perish", if we are in Christ.
: 3 Resurrections Wed May 01, 2019 - 13:39:31The COMPLETE FELLOWSHIP between Christ Jesus and believers is not restored until they are standing FACE-TO-FACE with each other, with physical union restored as well.
There is no physical reunion.
1Co 15:35 But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?"
1Co 15:36 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.
1Co 15:37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain.
1Co 15:38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.
1Co 15:39 For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.
1Co 15:40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
Hi 4WD,
Are you denying that Jesus Christ is currently the same physical body that was displayed for 40 days, and that "passed into the heavens" at His ascension?
If you do deny the physical nature of the form Christ still retains today, then you have no mediator between you and God. The physical was not discarded at His ascension. When He returned back in AD 70 , He came with the same body He was raised with, and that was reigning in heaven until then. He will come yet again for the saints who will have lived during the New Covenant ages, to "redeem the purchased possession" of their bodies and souls. Not a hair left to perish in the grave, as promised in Luke 21:18 to the disciples.
The very same "IT" that is sown as a natural body in death is the exact same "IT" that shall be raised having spiritual qualities; the same body reconditioned, glorified with immortality, and fitted for heaven.
Jesus does not throw in the trash the bodies of the saints that He paid His blood to purchase as His own possession. "We are not our own...we are bought with a price". We are supposed to glorify God in our body AND in our spirit, which are both God's. If Christ did discard our dead bodies in the grave, that wouldn't say much about the value of Christ's blood sacrifice, would it?
As for I Cor. 15:51-52, I've already put up a post back in 2016 (which you may have already read) about the "We shall not all sleep..." verse that means "NONE OF US shall sleep.." at this link:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/we-shall-not-all-sleep-means-none-of-us-shall-sleep/
Again, you and most everybody else are presuming a "translation" type of change for living believers in the I Cor. 15 text that isn't there. "...it is appointed unto men ONCE TO DIE, but after this the judgment." (Hebrews 9:27) No exceptions for any generation given. Sorry to disappoint, but there's no getting around that death sentence. You wouldn't want to make God a liar, would you?
: 3 Resurrections Wed May 01, 2019 - 15:11:22
Hi 4WD,
Are you denying that Jesus Christ is currently the same physical body that was displayed for 40 days, and that "passed into the heavens" at His ascension?
Yes, of course.
1Co 15:46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
1Co 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
1Co 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. : 3 ResIf you do deny the physical nature of the form Christ still retains today, then you have no mediator between you and God. The physical was not discarded at His ascension. When He returned back in AD 70 , He came with the same body He was raised with, and that was reigning in heaven until then.
Preterist nonsense.
Hi 4WD,
This is VERY strange. Someone who scoffs at Preterist doctrine is actually teaching what Full-Preterists believe. The position YOU are holding is straight out of the Full-Preterist position that many of them believe.
I have read what Don Preston says about Christ's post-ascension existence. I guess you could call Don Preston one of the "grandfathers" of the Full-Preterist movement. He and another strong Full-Preterist proponent, Pastor Michael Miano, have both taught that Jesus cast aside and literally destroyed His own physically-resurrected form when He ascended into the clouds from the Mount of Olives, so that what He is now is only a spiritual being in heaven.
This idea runs counter to ALL the doctrine related to Jesus as our high priest mediator that the book of Hebrews gives us. Christ MUST retain His physical, resurrected human form in heaven, in order to be a representative of human saints on earth.
You are absolutely correct to repeat that "flesh and BLOOD cannot inherit the kingdom of God". We know this. But Jesus' resurrection body was NOT flesh and BLOOD. It was "flesh and BONES" as He said in Luke 24:39, that could be touched by the disciples.
Flesh and bones that could disappear from view (Luke 24:31).
That could impart the Spirit to His disciples (John 20:22).
That was deathless (Romans 6:9).
That could transport itself between earth and heaven at virtually the speed of thought, between His ascension after meeting Mary, and then greeting that group of women on the road just shortly afterward.
That could levitate (Acts1:9).
That could eat and drink (Acts10:41).
That could change appearance and form (Mark 16:12).
That can speak in understandable languages as Paul heard and saw on the Damascus road (Acts 22:14).
These are all characteristics of a glorified, incorruptible physical body operating as a "spiritual body" after it has been changed. It is empowered by the SPIRIT, and NOT by BLOOD flowing through a circulatory system. That's because "the life of the flesh is in the BLOOD" in its "natural" mortal state (Lev. 17:11). There's NO BLOOD in the "spiritual body" of flesh and bones.
All Christ's life-blood, once poured out at the base of the cross, was taken by him at His first ascension and applied to the mercy-seat in heaven on resurrection day. It is STILL THERE TODAY, pleading your cause, so that your prayers and your person are able to be accepted in God's eyes.
If the offering of the physical blood and the physical human body of your high priest Christ Jesus are not both now present in heaven' temple, then YOU, 4WD, have no standing and no acceptance, because you have no covering for your sins and no human representative to plead for you. No one to make you vicariously holy in God's sight. Because simply being a "good guy" isn't good enough. You must be an absolutely perfect specimen of a human to be accepted in the presence of a perfect God. This is what Christ provides on your behalf.
This is definitely a salvation issue - not just eschatology under discussion.
Do you really want to join hands with that version of Full-Preterist teaching on this point 4WD? Because that's what you're doing, whether you realize it or not.
: 3 Resurrections Thu May 02, 2019 - 09:43:35This is VERY strange.
What is strange is the Preterist view of eschatology. Even your forum ID, 3 Resurrections, is strange. Not only strange but totally out of line with a Biblical discussion of Christ's return. But I will leave it there.
Hi again 4WD,
I don't mean to badger you, but you aren't exactly addressing the point. If I understand your position correctly, (let me know if I'm not), you are saying that Christ's return in the future will be as a non-physical spirit being returning to earth...to a particular place? Or as being omnipresent on the planet, perhaps?
How would that be any different than what we have now, with the Spirit inhabiting every child of God, wherever they happen to live? How does your view replicate the conditions of how Christ ascended in Acts 1? The angels said He would "come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven" (Acts 1:11). That was a PHYSICAL ascent, so it would necessarily have to be a physical return.
The Full Preterists describe Christ's second coming in the SAME WAY YOU ARE. As a spirit being only - no physical, glorified, resurrected body of Christ involved at all in His return. The only difference between you and them is that they assign the date of Christ coming as a spirit being to AD 70, and you assign it to the future.
Neither you nor they offer the hope Christ gave to the disciples; that "not an hair of your head shall perish", because they would share in a resurrection of the physical bodies of the saints.
It's quite alright if you regard my forum ID of 3 Resurrections as strange, 4WD. The question is not whether it's strange, but whether or not this concept aligns with scripture teaching.
I have asked many times on this website for ANYONE to prove from scripture that Christ will only return ONCE and stage a SINGLE ONE-AND-ONLY-ONE resurrection. Do you have this proof from scripture, 4WD? I've been waiting for several years, and have yet to read anyone addressing this question with scripture passages to prove their point.
I have also asked this question about proving a single one-and-only-one resurrection on Full Preterists sites, as well as Partial-Preterist sites. Also no response to date proving my view to be wrong.
: 3 Resurrections Thu May 02, 2019 - 12:02:02
Hi again 4WD,
I don't mean to badger you, but you aren't exactly addressing the point. If I understand your position correctly, (let me know if I'm not), you are saying that Christ's return in the future will be as a non-physical spirit being returning to earth...to a particular place? Or as being omnipresent on the planet, perhaps?
How would that be any different than what we have now, with the Spirit inhabiting every child of God, wherever they happen to live? How does your view replicate the conditions of how Christ ascended in Acts 1? The angels said He would "come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven" (Acts 1:11). That was a PHYSICAL ascent, so it would necessarily have to be a physical return.
The Full Preterists describe Christ's second coming in the SAME WAY YOU ARE. As a spirit being only - no physical, glorified, resurrected body of Christ involved at all in His return. The only difference between you and them is that they assign the date of Christ coming as a spirit being to AD 70, and you assign it to the future.
Neither you nor they offer the hope Christ gave to the disciples; that "not an hair of your head shall perish", because they would share in a resurrection of the physical bodies of the saints.
It's quite alright if you regard my forum ID of 3 Resurrections as strange, 4WD. The question is not whether it's strange, but whether or not this concept aligns with scripture teaching.
I have asked many times on this website for ANYONE to prove from scripture that Christ will only return ONCE and stage a SINGLE ONE-AND-ONLY-ONE resurrection. Do you have this proof from scripture, 4WD? I've been waiting for several years, and have yet to read anyone addressing this question with scripture passages to prove their point.
I have also asked this question about proving a single one-and-only-one resurrection on Full Preterists sites, as well as Partial-Preterist sites. Also no response to date proving my view to be wrong.
Sorry, 3 Res, I hold to the amillennial view of the future. I am not really interested in any Preterist view, full or partial. Those are views even further afield, biblically, than the pre- or post-millennial views. I shouldn't have engaged you at all in the first place.
Hi 3 Res Interesting interchangeable conversation,
On a friendly note I took the liberty to check a few commentaries concerning the verse you engaged with 4WD
"Neither you nor they offer the hope Christ gave to the disciples; that "not an hair of your head shall perish", because they would share in a resurrection of the physical bodies of the saints".
This is what I came up with and would agree on, and perhaps this is what Jesus had in mind concerning the imminent situation.
Luke 21:18
[But there shall not a hair of your head perish.] A proverbial expression for, Ye shall not suffer any essential injury. Every genuine Christian shall escape when this desolation comes upon the Jewish state. Adam Clarke's Commentary,
Luke 21:7-36
Verse 18. [A hair of your head perish] This is a proverbial expression, denoting that they should not suffer any essential injury. This was strikingly fulfilled in the fact that in the calamities of Jerusalem there is reason to believe that no Christian suffered. Before those calamities came on the city they had fled to "Pella," a city on the east of the Jordan. See the notes at Matthew 24:18.Barnes
Do you see any validity to those comments.
Kind Regards
Larry
Hey again Larry,
Sorry, I don't see any validity for assigning a "proverbial expression" to this phrase that not a hair on the heads of the disciples would perish. That's because the verses directly before this verse (Luke 21:12-16) describe the persecution, imprisonment, trials before religious and governmental authorities, AND DEATH awaiting the disciples, before the "days of vengeance" against the Jewish nation arrived in the AD 66-70 era.
The parallel passage in Matt. 24:9 agrees with this prediction for the disciples. "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, AND SHALL KILL YOU: and ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake."
This "KILLING" of the disciples was not proverbial. All of the 12, and multitudes of the saints would have died before AD 70, (in addition to the other disciple, the resurrected, beloved John Eleazar - Lazarus - who wrote the three Johannine epistles, John's gospel, and Revelation. The beloved disciple who Jesus said He willed to "remain until I come").
The whole idea behind God arranging this pre-AD 70 persecution and death for the saints was to maximize the greatest number of dead saints who could participate in the bodily resurrection in AD 70 on that year's Pentecost Day. "The more, the merrier", as they say.
In this resurrection, not a hair on the head of any of these martyred saints would perish, because their bodies would all be changed into an incorruptible and immortal state, and raptured to heaven by the physically-returning Christ from the Mount of Olives location, which location and return Zechariah 14:4-7 predicted long ago.
There must be a difference between the saints who "SHALL NOT PERISH", and the wicked who DO PERISH. If the righteous do NOT experience a physical resurrection, how is their fate any different than that of the wicked whose bodies are left in the grave to perish?
Hi 4WD,
That's okay, no harm no foul. For myself, my millennial view, (as you may already know), is not a match with any of the typical ones in the charts. I don't believe Christ has had or ever will have a limited 1,000-year reign with an end to it. God has ALWAYS reigned, as in Psalms 93:2 "Thy THRONE is established OF OLD: thou art from EVERLASTING."
The literal thousand-year limitation was put on SATAN, not Christ. During that time of limitation and restriction of Satan's deception, the OT saints and prophets living on earth also shared in the blessing of having freer ability to spread the knowledge of the God of Israel to many nations of the ancient world.
It started with the "golden age" of peace established under King Solomon when he laid the foundation stone of the First Temple in AD 967. A literal thousand years later in AD 33, Christ laid down Himself as the True foundation stone of the True Temple, made of "living stones" at His resurrection - the "First Resurrection" of Rev. 20:5-6.
The Millennium was always intended to be a physical type of temple worship representing the later Spiritual Temple based on Christ's sacrifice of Himself. But definitely off-topic from Larry's original post...
Hi Again 3Res
The bible is loaded with proverbial expressions, and commentaries of all different kinds of end times scenario's judge differently than a biological resurrection proposal from the verse. I don't think the "not a hair" is a rock-solid idiom proving there will be a physical resurrection.
So it implores Jesus had something different in mind, because the context of the chapter surrounding the verse a warning, promise and fulfillment "when at the last you come to cast up your accounts, you shall find you have lost nothing, and your enemies shall also find that they have gained nothing" I find this more appropriate when considering hyperbolic/exaggerated proverbial expressions in the bible.
Eusebius: "The members of the Jerusalem church by means of an oracle, given by revelation to acceptable persons there, were ordered to leave the city before the war began and settle in a town in Peraea called Pella." Book III, 5:4
Hi Larry,
There might be grounds for discounting a bodily resurrection if this Luke 21:18 verse was the only testimony regarding biological preservation of the saints' bodies. But it isn't the only one. The Old Testament is full of it, as well as the New Testament, even though the Sadducees denied it.
To totally discount the biological resurrection, showing a new, glorified state of existence in that same body, is to ignore several things:
#1) The clear example of the Matthew 27:52-53 First-fruits saints, which God supplied as "exhibit A" for all the rest of the "harvests" that would resurrect the saints. They were a sample of the biological resurrection that all saints will eventually inherit as "joint-heirs with Christ" (Romans 8:17) who would be "glorified together" with Him.
#2) It also ignores the ancient understanding that Job had of a biological resurrection in Job 14:12-15. Here it is, as found in the LXX, because it's even more clear in this version than in the KJV, which only speaks of Job waiting until his "change comes", when he would "rise" after having been laid in the grave.
"And man that has lain down in death shall certainly not rise again TILL the heaven be dissolved" (which it was in AD 70 - the point in time which the word "TILL" was anticipating) "and they shall not awake from their sleep. For oh, that thou hadst kept me in the grave, and hadst hidden me until thy wrath should cease, and thou shouldest set me a time in which thou wouldest remember me! For if a man should die, shall he LIVE AGAIN, having accomplished the days of his life?" (his "BIOS" in the Greek). "I WILL WAIT TILL I EXIST AGAIN " (or "till I am MADE AGAIN" - palin genomai - in that BIOS form). " THEN shalt thou CALL and I will HEARKEN unto thee" (This is when "all that are in the grave shall HEAR HIS VOICE , and shall come forth..." as in John 5:28.)
#3) It is also to ignore the way Isaiah 26:19 characterizes the resurrection in the KJV, when "the earth shall cast out the dead". In the LXX version of Isaiah 26:19, "The dead shall rise, and they that are in the tombs shall be raised, and they that are in the earth shall rejoice: for the dew from thee is healing to them: but the land of the ungodly shall perish." Definitely biological going on here, with literal tombs or sepulchers spoken about, and anything connected to the ungodly destined to perish instead of rejoicing in being raised out of those tombs.
#4) It is also to ignore how Ezekiel 37 described the picture of Israel being raised to life again in the post-exilic return to existence as a nation. Ezekiel used language describing how the physical resurrection occurs to symbolize how God would revive the nation under Zerubbabel and the prophets' leadership.
First, dry, scattered bones are pictured; then the bones are re-assembled; then sinews and flesh are added to these skeletons; then skin covers them; then God breathes His life-giving breath into these forms, and they stand on their feet.
If the Jews had no conception of a biological resurrection (as Martha and Mary did), then Ezekiel's description of a resurrected Israel, using biological comparisons, would have been a wasted illustration for them.
#5) Another example of a reference to biological resurrection is Joseph, who was commended for his faith when "he gave command concerning HIS BONES" (Heb. 11:22). This is because he knew his bones would one day be given restored life in an incorruptible, immortal form.
This is also why God took care to bury Moses' body, because the carcase of Moses was going to share in a biological resurrection in AD 70. Why would God bother to bury Moses, if the biological resurrection were not a factor?
This is also why Jesus told Martha in John 11:40 that His power to bodily raise Lazarus from the tomb was the equivalent of when she would "SEE the glory of God" on display. A resurrection of the dead has VISIBLE results that glorify God's power. As mentioned above in Romans 8:17, the "fellow-heirs of Christ" were going to be "GLORIFIED TOGETHER" with Him after they had suffered.
A glorified, bodily-resurrected Christ = glorified, bodily-resurrected saints having a shared inheritance. This was the same "GLORY which is *ABOUT TO BE* REVEALED" in those first-century saints addressed in Romans; soon to be realized in an AD 70 resurrection when God would "quicken your mortal bodies" as promised to them in Romans 8:11.
As for the saints who were able to escape to Pella for the duration of the war, I agree; there is ample historical reference for this. There is even a record of them returning to Jerusalem after the war and re-establishing a congregation.
But this doesn't negate a bodily resurrection of all the saints who died under persecution during the years before the Roman - Jewish war; the ones who were "faithful unto death", and who "received the crown of life" as a reward (Rev. 2:10). All it means is that a number of Christians survived to carry the gospel forward into the next generation.
Hi 3 Res Good stuff and thanks for the opportunity to share your thoughts, I can see you did much research on the topic of a biological resurrection.
I'll take the statements one at time
#5) Another example of a reference to biological resurrection is Joseph, who was commended for his faith when "he gave command concerning HIS BONES" (Heb. 11:22).
When reading the account in Genesis 50:24-26 Joseph instructed the children of Israel what to do with his remains. He had such a firm belief that they would possess the land of promise ,and bury him in the land of his fathers. a "sure confidence that what God had spoken would be performed"
This is because he knew his bones would one day be given restored life in an incorruptible, immortal form.
If this was the promise, then what is the better reward prepared for us that they would share?
Hebrews 11:39 And these men of faith, though they trusted God and won his approval, none of them received all that God had promised them;
40 for God wanted them to wait and share the even better rewards that were prepared for us.
Hi again Larry,
Your question about what Joseph expected for his bones one day, especially compared to the examples of ancient saints given in Hebrews 11...
"If this was the promise, then what is the better reward prepared for us that they would share?"
The "better reward" is the bodily resurrection for all the dead saints that the Hebrews readers anticipated in their near future. Just remember; the "US" in that verse is not directed to you and me - it's the Hebrews audience being addressed during the mid-AD 60's. THEY would receive the "better thing", along with all those OT martyrs and ancient saints in AD 70.
The "better thing" foreseen by Joseph that he would share with the future generation of the Hebrews readers was the "better resurrection" mentioned just previously in Hebrews 11:35. It would be a "better resurrection" than the one experienced by the couple examples of women who received their dead raised to life again (i.e., the widow's son in I Kings 17:22 and the Shunamite woman's son in II Kings 4:35).
Just what made the expectation of the Hebrews saints in the mid-AD 60's a "BETTER resurrection" than being raised to life in ancient days by Elijah or Elisha? Hebrews 11:40 tells us. It's more than a "spiritual" resurrection promised. The "BETTER thing" was going to be that all those faithful OT martyrs, saints, and patriarchs would be raised to life again and "MADE PERFECT" ALL TOGETHER in a massive, group resurrection of their physical bodies at the Lord's coming in AD 70. They would not have to wait alone patiently for long centuries on earth in their resurrected body (as those 3 known scripture examples we have) before they saw God face-to-face in heaven in AD 70.
It must have been a lonely experience for those few ancient examples who were bodily resurrected by the prophets. Never to marry or have children in that resurrected state. To be such unique individuals, existing on earth without being able to associate or fellowship with groups of others like themselves. And especially to not be allowed access to heaven yet until AD 70 arrived, as Jesus stated in John 3:13, and John stated in Rev. 15:8.
You see, it's not good enough just to be raised to life again, and have your physical body above ground once more, never to die again. No, the ultimate experience we long for, and that we were MADE FOR is to be FACE-TO-FACE in intimate fellowship with our Creator, wherever He happens to be. THIS is that "better thing" of Heb. 11:40.
THIS is the full experience of being "MADE PERFECT", as Hebrews 11:40 expresses it. THIS is what Christ Himself experienced as the "FIRST-fruits", the "FIRST-begotten", and the "FIRST-born". He was the FIRST one to be "MADE PERFECT", as found in Hebrews 5:8-10. "Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered; And being MADE PERFECT, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchizedek."
We can see clearly in this verse that being "MADE PERFECT" is what followed Christ's crucifixion sufferings. It was at that time He ascended to heaven, and was FACE-TO-FACE with God when He was made our high priest in His glorified, bodily-resurrected state. This is the same picture presented in Daniel 7:13-14, when the one like the Son of Man came to the Ancient of Days and was "brought near before Him", receiving the kingdom of His high priesthood from His Father.
Don't underestimate the whole "Face-to-face" experience. It's the ultimate pinnacle of union and fellowship that Rev. 22:4 anticipated for the glorified, bodily-resurrected saints. And it was soon to arrive in that AD 70 resurrection when the already-resurrected (those 3 ancient examples, as well as the Matt. 27:52-53 saints, and those resurrected like Lazarus) along with the newly-resurrected children of faith would meet the Lord together in the air. As Paul predicted would happen in I Thess. 4's "rapture" text.
Hi Res
I am trying to sort out what you're getting at Res. concerning a better resurrections. Are you suggesting the better resurrection is a "BRIGHTER HOPE OF HEAVEN" match up to a BIOLOGICAL FUTURE RESURRECTION here on earth. Something like the Jehovah Witnesses believe, but not exactly, that a 144k meet God face to face while the great crowd spend eternity right here on earth. Rev. 14 And in some way the 144 k will rule with Christ over that great crowd living in a paradise environment with no pain, no death etc Rev.21:4
Although I think you are presenting a different twist to the idea, is this the gist of the final outcome. If so how should we view Eph. 4:4-6 where it speaks of in so many words ONE HOPE for all. And for all to share the same glory mentioned in Heb. 2:10 Rom. 8:30 That Christians have the same hope, and they should therefore be one. They are looking forward to the same heaven to reside in, they hope for the same happiness beyond the grave.
Hi Res I reread your post, and perhaps missed something when I first read it.
"Don't underestimate the whole "Face-to-face" experience. It's the ultimate pinnacle of union and fellowship that Rev. 22:4 anticipated for the glorified, bodily-resurrected saints."
When saying bodily resurrected saints, they preserve their fleshly body, but it will be an immortal glorified body. The same type of that Christ now maintains in heaven. Acts 1
What is the prospect for the believers post AD 70. If there is a diverse promise what do we make of one hope mentioned in Eph. 4:4-7
I do see the better resurrection as heavenly in the presents of God, but the body will be changed for the heavenly environment.
Hi again Larry,
You'll get no disagreement from me that all the saints from creation to the end of human history will eventually receive the very same type of inheritance of a biologically-resurrected body made immortal, standing in God's presence. The only difference is in WHEN they each receive the full terms of that inheritance.
That's because God has designed the main resurrection events that "harvest" the bodies of the saints out of the ground to be spread out in THREE STAGES over all of history's timeline. These were each scheduled to fall on the calendar on the same days that the three required harvest feast celebrations used to take place under Mosaic law, which was all meant to provide a picture type of God's redemption plans for His saints.
First Resurrection event: Passover AD33 at the end of the Rev. 20 millennium, with Christ the First-fruits, and the 144,000 First-fruits Matthew 27:52-53 saints (the "remnant of the dead" raised to life again). These then "remained" on earth waiting until the second resurrection event for their rapture to heaven. Satan was loosed to deceive the nations for a "little season" from AD 33 until he and his angels and the unclean spirits were all "imprisoned" (Rev. 18:2, Is. 24:21-22) in the city of Jerusalem from AD 66-70.
Second Resurrection event: Pentecost Day, AD 70, the "BETTER resurrection", with all the rest of the great multitude of saints from creation until that 1,335th day on Pentecost Day in AD 70 being raised to life again and raptured to heaven. Satan and the entire demonic realm was destroyed to ashes, and the ages under the New Covenant without the presence of the demonic world began.
Third Resurrection event: Feast of Tabernacles, AD 3033 at the end of 7 millennia of fallen man's history on this planet. This will be the last bodily resurrection for all saints who will have lived and died since AD 70's resurrection. There's no rapture and no destruction of the globe predicted for us, so once Christ returns to earth, it's possible He might stay this time, once He purges the planet by destroying all wicked humanity out of it.
Since He "formed this earth to be inhabited" (Isaiah 45:18), it stands to reason that there is destined to always be a human presence on this earth, though the entire universe might also be a sort of "playground" for the resurrected saints, as well as our having free access to heaven and God's presence.
Hi 3 Res
You see, it's not good enough just to be raised to life again, and have your physical body above ground once more, never to die again. No, the ultimate experience we long for, and that we were MADE FOR is to be FACE-TO-FACE in intimate fellowship with our Creator, wherever He happens to be. THIS is that "better thing" of Heb. 11:40.
Are you suggesting the resurrected saints will have the same fleshly body taken to meet God face to face. Can two different natures share fellowship in an intimate way as face to face in the presents of God. It seems to me to make it work the fleshly body has to be changed to a spiritual one.